From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V11 #129 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, September 9 2009 Volume 11 : Number 129 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise [PAUL RABJOHN ] [idealcopy] We only wanted to be loved [Fergus Kelly ] RE: [SPAM]: [idealcopy] Bitter Pil(l) ["keith a" ] Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise [eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise ["bSirius" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 08:25:45 +0000 (GMT) From: PAUL RABJOHN Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise welll.........ok all things are possible but realistically what's being re-formed here is the final PIL line up with an unknown guy filling John McGeogh's boots. whereas the original PIL were an avant garde force of nature , the final era struggled to get anyone interested at all (does anyone here rate those latter albums?). something like Metal Box is done with so much attitude , but that's a function of the people involved and i can't see this line up doing anything more than the rock posturings of the post-Levine era. i am a Lydon fan , but these days he seems to see himself as a performer / showman and i'm not sure that's the right starting point to put over the early PIL stuff in a way i'd want to watch. keith ; what was the band for that "Album" tour then? was that McGeogh ? never heard the London Cowboys. wasn't that a post-Rich Kids Matlock project? always presume anything Glen does will be a bit pub rock (i've got a couple of Spectres singles from that kind of era) but not heard the LC's as far as i remember. keith and glen must have known each other i suppose , so i guess its not completely impossible. p ________________________________ From: David McKenzie To: MarkBursa@aol.com Cc: steeleknight@lineone.net; keith.indoorminer@virgin.net; idealcopy@smoe.org Sent: Tuesday, 8 September, 2009 2:44:12 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise First interesting (albeit non-wire) thread in some time. I agree that Bruce Smith lends weight to a questionable package. I would not be astounded to be pleasantly surprised. On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:40 PM, wrote:... > > Hey, we've got Idealcopy back! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 04:54:01 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise >>was levine in london cowboys for a millisecond?<< London Cowboys was some kind of Pistols/NY Dolls hybrid with Matlock and Jerry Nolan and other assorted types. Not a band I've ever paid much attention to, to be honest... I think you're getting mixed up with Ken Lockie's Cowboys International, which did feature Levine. M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:50:16 +0100 From: "keith a" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise >keith ; what was the band for that "Album" tour then? was that McGeogh ? Yes. And Lu, too. Just googled to confirm it was Bruce Smith. Couldnbt remember the bassist but apparently it was Allan Dias. http://www.fodderstompf.com/CHRONOLOGY/1986.html I remember getting there late and missing the opening number so missed the below... bPiL begin their UK tour at Victoria Hall, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent (see Gig List for full dates). At John McGeoch's insistence PiL start with Led Zeppelin's 'Kashmir' (a set opener throughout the year). During the first number Lydon gets a billiard ball thrown at his head...b Indeed, 23 yrs later this is the first I knew about it! As for the later PIL LPbs, I loved Album. Happy? had its moments b esp Fat Chance Hotel, which I thought was a bit of a classic though I must confess I've not played it in a long time. Thought 9 was OK, but I can barely remember That What Is Not. K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 02:55:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] We only wanted to be loved Mark said, re. Wobble's book: "Picked up his book the other day - it's probably as close as you'll get toa reliable PiL memoir." "Metal Box - inside John Lydon's Public Image Limited" by Phil Strongman was an interesting read. How reliable it is I've no idea. Definitely want to read the Wobble book though, after I read the Magazine biography, which is winging it's way to me as I type.. The PiL reformation just sounds like another money spinner. Pah. Wonder how long it'll last. Fergus http://www.roomtemperature.org http://www.asullenrelapse.blogspot.com http://www.myspace.com/ferguskellyrecordings http://www.flickr.com/photos/55867717@N00/sets/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 05:56:22 -0400 From: TnA Subject: [idealcopy] Bitter Pil(l) Bittersweet news, actually. Original PiL are still up there with the Beatles in my pantheon of greatness, but all other versions of the band are... definitely not. I saw what must have been the last weeks of Levine's tenure with the band (Boston, 27 March '83), and even with Wobble out (say hello Pete 'Slapbass' Jones), they managed to achieve take-off in a sinister, confrontational way, and there was plenty of 'Chant', guitar skree,etc. However, I later saw 'PiL' open for INXS (honestly, I was given free tickets!), and was if not appalled, I would say I was bored....and that is unforgivable. And then I saw them again, when they opened with Zeppelin's 'Kashmir', and those few opening moments were the highlight of that show... So, my heart thumps not at this announcement. Maybe with Pan-sonic aboard, or Rowland S. Howard, or Arto Lindsay,Neubaten, or some unknown 19 year old art-punks.... but wait, Wobble's got a book? And its available in the U.S. later this decade? All is not lost, then. and yes, Levine was in Cowboys, or at least recorded with them, for a milisecond. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 11:33:27 +0100 From: "keith a" Subject: RE: [SPAM]: [idealcopy] Bitter Pil(l) - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of TnA Sent: 08 September 2009 10:56 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [SPAM]: [idealcopy] Bitter Pil(l) I saw what must have been the last weeks of Levine's tenure with the band (Boston, 27 March '83) I initially read that as "I saw what must have been the last weeks of Levine's tenure with the Band Boston"! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:35:45 +0100 From: "Bruno Clements" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise Wow, Ari, I didn't know you'd hung out with Mr Lydon - well impressed! I've never thought he was racist - as someone of Irish origin his people would have been on the receiving end of anti-Irish feeling in London so unless it's a case of the bullied becoming a bully I should think he'd be well aware of the lunacy of racism. The early punks were heavily influenced by the DIY attitude of reggae. Incidentally I have some old 12-inch issued post Pistols and about the time of the first PiL single. The picture sleeve showed a line-up which was pretty much PiL only one of them had a sheet over his head. I always suspected that was Mr Lydon. The music was very dub. Must do some more research on it. Bruno - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ari" To: Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 11:43 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise > ________________________________ > >>>I was at the Wobble interview too, although must have arrived too late >>>for > this snippet. Wobble was highly diverting, a real raconteur, which bodes > well for the memoir. Amusing slagging off of the World Music scene ("run > by > privately educated c*nts") and of Lydon's alleged racism ("He's a singer. > They're too up themselves to sign up to ideologies"). Or words to that > effect.<< > I have very deep doubts that John is/was a racist, when I met him there > were many young Rastas in the crowd that he warmed to,and when I later > spent 3 daze with him in London and, although most of the pubs/clubs we > visited were mainstrean white punks on dopevenues, he appeared equally > relaxed and friendly with/toward young Black kids on dope as well. just > my two pence worth..... A This email has been scanned for viruses and other threats using Newsquest's Ironport email filters. This document is private and confidential. All property, copyright and other rights in it and its contents belong to Newsquest Media GroupLimited. It must not be read, copied, disclosed or otherwise used without Newsquestbs authorisation. Newsquest may exercise its legal rights and remedies in the event of any such unauthorised use. Newsquest Media Group Limited. Registered in England, number 3105111. Registered office: 58 Church Street, Weybridge, Surrey KT13 8DP. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:42:35 +0100 From: "Bruno Clements" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise Steel Leg vs. the Electric Dread 520 plays (167 listeners) In your library (0 plays) EP featuring Jah Wobble and Keith Levene (as "Stratetime Keith"), along with Don Letts and Wobble's mate Vince Bracken. One of the first PiL "umbrella" releases. Basically seen as a cash in at the time, but not without its merit in places; especially 'Haile Unlikely' with Don Letts on vocals. It may seem an obvious thing to say, but this really is the missing link between 'First Issue' & 'Metal Box'. From the more "rocky" 'Steel Leg' through to the spacey dub of 'Haile Unlikely' & 'Unlikely Pub'. >>>>Well, according to this it looks like Bracken was the man in the >>>>headgear. Ah well. Another nice theory kicks the bucket And now I'm going to be humming bits of it all day! Bruno<<<< - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruno Clements" To: Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise > Wow, Ari, I didn't know you'd hung out with Mr Lydon - well impressed! > > I've never thought he was racist - as someone of Irish origin his people > would have been on the receiving end of anti-Irish feeling in London so > unless it's a case of the bullied becoming a bully I should think he'd be > well aware of the lunacy of racism. > > The early punks were heavily influenced by the DIY attitude of reggae. > Incidentally I have some old 12-inch issued post Pistols and about the > time > of the first PiL single. The picture sleeve showed a line-up which was > pretty much PiL only one of them had a sheet over his head. I always > suspected that was Mr Lydon. The music was very dub. Must do some more > research on it. > > Bruno > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ari" > To: > Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 11:43 PM > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise > > >> ________________________________ >> >>>>I was at the Wobble interview too, although must have arrived too late >>>>for >> this snippet. Wobble was highly diverting, a real raconteur, which bodes >> well for the memoir. Amusing slagging off of the World Music scene ("run >> by >> privately educated c*nts") and of Lydon's alleged racism ("He's a singer. >> They're too up themselves to sign up to ideologies"). Or words to that >> effect.<< >> I have very deep doubts that John is/was a racist, when I met him there >> were many young Rastas in the crowd that he warmed to,and when I later >> spent 3 daze with him in London and, although most of the pubs/clubs we >> visited were mainstrean white punks on dopevenues, he appeared equally >> relaxed and friendly with/toward young Black kids on dope as well. just >> my two pence worth..... A > This email has been scanned for viruses and other threats using > Newsquest's > Ironport email filters. > > This document is private and confidential. > All property, copyright and other rights in it and its contents belong to > Newsquest Media GroupLimited. > It must not be read, copied, disclosed or otherwise used without > Newsquestbs > authorisation. Newsquest may exercise its legal rights and remedies in the > event of any such unauthorised use. > > Newsquest Media Group Limited. > Registered in England, number 3105111. > Registered office: 58 Church Street, Weybridge, Surrey KT13 8DP. This email has been scanned for viruses and other threats using Newsquest's Ironport email filters. This document is private and confidential. All property, copyright and other rights in it and its contents belong to Newsquest Media GroupLimited. It must not be read, copied, disclosed or otherwise used without Newsquestbs authorisation. Newsquest may exercise its legal rights and remedies in the event of any such unauthorised use. Newsquest Media Group Limited. Registered in England, number 3105111. Registered office: 58 Church Street, Weybridge, Surrey KT13 8DP. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 09:48:40 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] We only wanted to be loved >>Mark said, re. Wobble's book: "Picked up his book the other day - it's probably as close as you'll get toa reliable PiL memoir." "Metal Box - inside John Lydon's Public Image Limited" by Phil Strongman was an interesting read. How reliable it is I've no idea.<< Having read Strongman's book earlier in the year I'm a bit PiLed out, hence the Wobble book sitting in the unread pile... Strongman's was good on 'life in Gunter Grove' but ultimately it's a bit of a fanboy effort... >>Definitely want to read the Wobble book though, after I read the Magazine biography, which is winging it's way to me as I type..<< Didn't buy the Mag book at the RFH gig - beginning to regret that now. >>The PiL reformation just sounds like another money spinner. Pah. Wonder how long it'll last.<< So, in the 'glass half-full' team, there's me and Mr Astbury. In the 'glass smashed on the floor' division Messrs Rabjohn & Kelly ;-) M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 13:22:34 -0400 From: uri.b@talktalk.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise If my memory serves me correctly, that's Lu Edmonds. I managed to avoid all of his gigs with the late period Spizzles (yes, that Spizz) who he also joined after their sell by date. Bit of a latecomer. I have observed Mr Lydon over the years and after seeing him become an ex-pat, reform the Pistols, appear on UK TV ads for insurance as some kind of upper class country twit? and noted that he's done nothing of any musical merit since the early '80's, one has to conclude that? this is nothing more than a means of keeping in the public eye and generating some income. Shame, the talent is gone and all that remains is the personality. - -----Original Message----- From: keith a To: 'PAUL RABJOHN' ; 'David McKenzie' ; MarkBursa@aol.com CC: steeleknight@lineone.net; idealcopy@smoe.org Sent: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 10:50 Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise >keith ; what was the band for that "Album" tour then? was that McGeogh ? Yes. And Lu, too. Just googled to confirm it was Bruce Smith. Couldnbt remember the bassist but apparently it was Allan Dias. http://www.fodderstompf.com/CHRONOLOGY/1986.html I remember getting there late and missing the opening number so missed the below... bPiL begin their UK tour at Victoria Hall, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent (see Gig List for full dates). At John McGeoch's insistence PiL start with Led Zeppelin's 'Kashmir' (a set opener throughout the year). During the first number Lydon gets a billiard ball thrown at his head...b Indeed, 23 yrs later this is the first I knew about it! As for the later PIL LPbs, I loved Album. Happy? had its moments b esp Fat Chance Hotel, which I thought was a bit of a classic though I must confess I've not played it in a long time. Thought 9 was OK, but I can barely remember That What Is Not. K. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 13:32:14 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise >>If my memory serves me correctly, that's Lu Edmonds. I managed to avoid all of his gigs with the late period Spizzles (yes, that Spizz) who he also joined after their sell by date. Bit of a latecomer.<< I have a single featuring Lu as frontman. Downhill by The Edge (a name they would doubtless live to regret), is a new wavey affair which also features Jon Moss on drums. The subject matter, as the title suggests, is the vexed post-punk issue of downhill skiing, as brought to you by David Vine on Sunday afternoon. M ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 17:29:57 +0000 From: davidmack@gmail.com Subject: Re: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise On 08/09/2009 12:22pm, uri.b@talktalk.net wrote: ... > Shame, the talent is gone and all that remains is the personality. ... I would debate whether the two were distinguishable. Lydon's personality + band's talents = PiL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 19:49:50 +0000 (GMT) From: Kid Spoons Subject: Fw: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise re-surfacing...i too saw the joke PIL line-up, just so i could say i'd seen Lydon 'sing'... and wished i hadn't...dire at best...will be most interested to see how this little money-making enterprise turns out... love to all out there... Ian.S.Jackson - --- On Mon, 9/7/09, PAUL RABJOHN wrote: From: PAUL RABJOHN Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise To: MarkBursa@aol.com, keith.indoorminer@virgin.net, idealcopy@smoe.org Date: Monday, September 7, 2009, 9:12 PM well i saw the LA cabaret band "this is not a love song" era PIL and desperately wished i hadn't. when i bought the ticket it hadn't yet been widely announced that KL had left and i was just so desperate to see Lydon and so bloody disappointed by the lame show i got. one of my top 10 duff gigs of all time i'm afraid. and yes they did loads of Metal Box stuff , so i've already seen Poptones , Careering et al slaughtered once. which , as the song says , is enough. hmmmm , Lu. let's look at his CV. the Damned album everyone involved with is deeply ashamed of , the PIL era everyone forgets and the arse end of the Mekons career. hmm , not exactly solid gold. still , to be fair , i had serious doubts about Noko in Magazine and i ate my words there. but seriously the guy i feel sorry for is Kele Oldjoke , who earnt himself a slapping from Lydon's roadcrew for suggesting something pretty similar to what the great man himself has come up with 6 months later. always knew Bloc Party had an original idea in them somewhere ;-) p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:08:54 -0400 From: eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise - -----Original Message----- From: davidmack@gmail.com To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sent: Tue, Sep 8, 2009 1:29 pm Subject: Re: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise On 08/09/2009 12:22pm, uri.b@talktalk.net wrote: ... > Shame, the talent is gone and all that remains is the personality. ... I would debate whether the two were distinguishable. Lydon's personality + band's talents = PiL I like that. Interesting perspective. Enforces the importance of band chemistry. It'll be interesting to see if the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. I've seen PiL through several incarnations, in the early and mid-late 80's. The last time was on the Album tour, a big arena gig opening for New Order. McGeogh was on stage, but I don't recall Kashmir and I think I'd remember? that, even if the gig was rather unmemorable. - -another the Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Sep 2009 19:15:00 -0700 From: "bSirius" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise actually.....from their myspace site: About London Cowboys ..This profile was edited with Thomas' myspace editor V2 In the beginning...... the start of the London Cowboys really goes back to when Barry Jones and Steve Dior met in the year 1066, through a girl they both dated. Barry had been in and out of bands Steve, who was still learning guitar, was desperate to be in a band. Their first band together still had no name when they persuaded friend Keith Levene to give it a try (he had recently left The Clash). The band consisted of Barry and Keith on guitars, Steve singing and on bass, and a Swedish chap called Geir on drums. They rehearsed under the name The Quickspurts through summer '76 but never got to gig...Keith drifted off looking for "more than a band"; he eventually hooked up with John Lydon(Sex Pistols), and formed Public Image Ltd. Meanwhile Steve and Barry recruited another friend, Chrissie Hynde to play guitar. They rehearsed some more.... it was fun but not right and Steve who had been practicing feverishly was itching to switch to guitar; so Chrissie was out..! (she later went on to form the Pretenders). When Steve took over rhythm guitar it pretty much cemented the Dior/Jones partnership which would last into the 90's and take them round the world. But that would come later, because at this point everything went on hold while the beast named the Roxy Club screamed out of nowhere, helped promote the growing New Wave scene, then disintegrated into an album, a book, and later a movie. Barry had met Andrew Czezowski at a party where the two talked about starting a club just for the new bands, most of them friends, who couldn't get regular gigs. Before they knew what was happening they had the Covent Garden club on a nightly rental, and "the thing just exploded". It was out of control and over in 4 months; without The Quickspurts ever getting to play, or even rehearse there (which had been Barry's original motivation); but it did introduce Steve and Barry to the Heartbreakers (Johnny Thunders & Jerry Nolan)... who played their type of rock n' roll...!!! After escaping the club management scene, and just to get out of town, Barry drove his flatmate, Matt Dangerfield's band The Boys, on their Scandanavian tour. When he returned he found that Steve's sister was dating Jerry Nolan; and Steve, who'd been hanging out with him, had played Jerry some of the Dior/Jones songs they were working on. Jerry had already been considering leaving the Heartbreakers and after hearing the songs he made the move. The three of them then arranged and recorded their first demos for Track Records. By March 1978 the band were living and playing in New York as The Idols, having recuited ex-Chelsea bass player Simon Williams along for the ride.... When Simon got homesick Jerry called in an old friend from the New York Dolls, Arthur "Killer" Kane to play bass; and he fit like a glove. Based out of New York, this lineup of The Idols gigged extensively up and down the East coast, from Boston to Philly, to Miami, throughout '78/'79. Although they'd built a broad following in and around New York, getting record company traction proved elusive; so The Idols signed an indy deal with NY based Ork Records and produced the single "Girl that I Love / You".... Europe being a more accessible market, the single was scheduled for release in the UK so Steve and Barry flew back to London to await Jerry and finalize a tour. When Jerry arrived he was refused entry again due his past visa infringements, which basically ended the band...... Barry got an offer to do the graphics for Max's Kansas City and returned to NY to work with Peter Crowley, who booked the bands. Meanwhile Steve began working with a new partner, Russell King, on a few studio dance type songs, under the name London Cowboys. It was a year later that Barry came back from the States and hooked up with Steve once again; and, with the European release and success of the London Cowboys first single "Shunting on the Nightshift", they decided it was time to get a working band again. As Russell didn't play live, Steve moved back to vocals and the two started looking for a rhythm section. Once found, they put a bunch of new songs with the best from their Idols set and started gigging..... It was around this time that they persuaded old friend Glen Matlock to play bass; and they were off..... appearing regularly at the Embassy, Greyhound, Marquee, the Hope & Anchor, Hundred Club, the Zig-Zag etc...... and very quickly building a solid reputation as one of the live acts to see... will be continued - ----- Original Message ----- From: "PAUL RABJOHN" To: "David McKenzie" ; Cc: ; ; Sent: Tuesday, September 08, 2009 1:25 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise > welll.........ok all things are possible but realistically what's being > re-formed here is the final PIL line up with an unknown guy filling John > McGeogh's boots. whereas the original PIL were an avant garde force of > nature > , the final era struggled to get anyone interested at all (does anyone > here > rate those latter albums?). something like Metal Box is done with so much > attitude , but that's a function of the people involved and i can't see > this > line up doing anything more than the rock posturings of the post-Levine > era. i > am a Lydon fan , but these days he seems to see himself as a performer / > showman and i'm not sure that's the right starting point to put over the > early > PIL stuff in a way i'd want to watch. > > keith ; what was the band for that > "Album" tour then? was that McGeogh ? > > never heard the London Cowboys. wasn't > that a post-Rich Kids Matlock project? always presume anything Glen does > will > be a bit pub rock (i've got a couple of Spectres singles from that kind of > era) but not heard the LC's as far as i remember. keith and glen must have > known each other i suppose , so i guess its not completely impossible. > > p > ________________________________ > From: David McKenzie > To: MarkBursa@aol.com > Cc: steeleknight@lineone.net; > keith.indoorminer@virgin.net; idealcopy@smoe.org > Sent: Tuesday, 8 September, > 2009 2:44:12 AM > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dead Disco Rise > > First interesting > (albeit non-wire) thread in some time. > I agree that Bruce Smith lends weight > to a questionable package. > I would not be astounded to be pleasantly > surprised. Now, Steve Dior and I had a band in Hollywood for a while with Barbara Ramone, Dee Dee's widow on bass, called The Amigroes....but she found it too depressing to do music after a while. steve took off for a tour with the l.a. guns and stayed on in england though i think he's in germany now. he has a new band i forget the name of. barry is a set painter in hollywood. i work with him sometimes. > > > On Mon, Sep 7, 2009 at 7:40 PM, wrote:... > >> >> Hey, we've got Idealcopy back! ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V11 #129 ********************************