From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V11 #113 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, July 13 2009 Volume 11 : Number 113 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] Awaydays ["keith a" ] Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays [Hold ] Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays [PAUL RABJOHN ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 19:25:58 +0100 From: "keith a" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Awaydays It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't crap. Not IMO anyway. As for "Deborah Curtis readily admits she never "knew" Ian", she would have known him better than most. Surely no-one ever really KNOWS anyone as well you think you might? I might be wrong, but there seemed an under-current of being somewhat anti-Corbijn in your message? - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Hold Sent: 12 July 2009 04:50 To: PAUL RABJOHN Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays OK, full throttle here... "Nailed"? To a cross? Not to rehash similar back-and-forth on the FAClist and the Cerysmatic Message Board, but Control was (and is) crap. Inability to direct actors (someone get Samantha Morton a muzzle [even latter-day DeNiro and screaming Pacino would be appalled]), ugly cinematography (there's only so much lack-of-talent that "going out of focus" will hide in your music video cv), a weak screenplay (mistakenly basing your POV on a still-angry widow/would-have-been-ex-wife's questionable book [Deborah Curtis readily admits she never "knew" Ian]; not exactly a well-rounded, or even insightful viewpoint), and an unforgivable teenage-Goth masturbatory fantasy of a closing shot, adds up to bullshit in my book. (Shall we add in worst re-creation of the Sex Pistols gig(s) in Manchester to boot?) Corbijn was a desperate long-term wanna-be hanger on (approaching stalker), that never came close to the Kevin Cummins iconography, yet got all the credit. As for 24HPP, say what you will, at least it had a sense of humor. The Factory crowd were much more the jokesters than "myth" has recognized. (Ask the Buzzcocks. [Mice and jam!]) Bring it on. ;-) Steven On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 3:12 PM, PAUL RABJOHN wrote: > well "control" nailed JD a lot better than "24hr party people". i quite > enjoyed it , and i watched it with a couple of people who had no idea of the > factory story ; they enjoyed it just as a ripping yarn. likewise "TIE" > wasn't the best thing ever but surely better than 90% of what gets cranked > out? > > looking forward to bruno now ;-) > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Hold > *Cc:* idealcopy@smoe.org > *Sent:* Friday, 10 July, 2009 3:56:18 AM > *Subject:* Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays > > Er, why are random producers listed alongside the performers on the > soundtrack?!? > "Control meets This Is > England". Hmm, a match made in Hell. Sorry, but two of the most overrated > films in recent memory. > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, keith a >wrote: > > > Anyone seen this as yet? > > > > > > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/ > > > > > > > > Film based in 1979, with ex-Dalek I member as producer. A quote from one > > review says- "Control meets This Is England" > > > > > > > > Wire on the soundtrack LP > > > > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/soundtrack.html > > > > > > > > And Hughes mentions Wire in the press blurb below. > > > > > > > > > > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/music.html > > > > > > > > Erics, Liverpool > > > > By David A Hughes, Awaydays Producer > > > > The club featured in the movie is based on the legendary 'Erics'. Most of > > the bands whose tracks feature in AWAYDAYS played at the club. It was on > > Mathew Street in Liverpool, the same tacky backstreet where The Cavern > used > > to be. Kevin Sampson and I were both members. During 1978 & 79 , Eric's > was > > the center of my universe. I started going in 1977 during the punk > > explosion, and from Erics dedicated audience of arty show-offs and moody > > Bowie clones came bands like Echo & The Bunnymen, Teardrop Explodes and > > OMD. > > One of my bands was Dalek I Love You, briefly mentioned in the the film > > when > > Elvis says 'Thought we was going to see Dalek tonight'. > > > > > > We all had become used to watching emerging acts like Talking Heads, > > Television, Devo, Magazine, The Human League and Wire and reckoned we > could > > do something ourselves. If you managed to think of a quirky band name and > > had a couple of edgy songs, you could be supporting The Clash the > following > > week. > > > > There weren't many members early on. You got to know most of the > audience. > > Thursday was local bands night, free to members and 50 whole pee to > guests! > > Most of the Liverpool scene and Zoo bands made their debuts on a Thursday > > at > > Erics. > > > > We saw a lot of raw, art-punk bands who went on to become > platinum-selling > > pop bands. The Police, Simple Minds, Ultravox, for 75p or a pound. I > > remember about 30 people watching The Human League knowing the best days > of > > punk were now over, electro had arrived... and I was staggered to see how > > Joy Division progressed from being a pile of shite in one very early gig > to > > jaw-dropping brilliance a couple of months later. > > > > I never heard a Beatles track played at Eric's. The regulars had a dogged > > (and predictable) anti-Beatles stance, and we all moved to the bar when > > Souxsie & The Banshees played 'Helter Skelter'. Whatever they'd done to > put > > Liverpool on the map, we knew that Eric's was giving the city a chance to > > move on from the burden of The Fab Four. Through Roger Eagle's (Erics > > owner) > > zealous love of music from all nooks and crannies, we got to hear lots of > > reggae, weird Louisiana blues, Dub, German Electro and Rockabilly. All > > these > > sounds filtered through to the emerging local bands. From Rockin Dopsie & > > His Cajun Twisters to Tapper Zukie and Matumbi, a night at Eric's was an > > education - truly the world in one city. > > > > Erics opened your eyes to other things as well. The gents toilets were > > unusable. Everything went on in the Ladies - and I mean everything. The > > club > > was in a basement, so when there was a high tide you could feel the damp > in > > the floor and the girls in their fishnet stocking feet would put their > > painful pointy boots back on before the rising Mersey tide sent a few > rats > > scurrying across the dance floor. > > > > Above all else Eric's made me , a runty twerp from Birkenhead, feel > > impossibly cool for long enough to land the drop dead gorgeous love of my > > life. > > > > > > -- > Steven H > hold.one@gmail.com > 718.775.6940 > - -- Steven Hankinson, Brooklyn NYC hold.one@gmail.com 718.775.6940 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:52:26 -0400 From: Hold Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays My badly made point with Deborah Curtis, is that her side of the story is just that. Her side. One side. And that one side is not a particularly strong one, as the reason anyone has ever made and will ever make any film "about" Ian Curtis/Joy Division is the music, and Deborah Curtis was deliberately and actively excluded from just that. Am I anti-Corbijn? Only in that I think he's an over-rated one trick pony. If you've seen one Corbijn vid, you've seen them all. The biggest failing of Control is Corbijn's absolute inability to direct (or shape) any of the actors performances. (A sadly typical result of many music video directors when making the jump to features.) Constant (& abrupt) changes in tone, even within single scenes, show a distinct lack of directorial "control". On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 2:25 PM, keith a wrote: > It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't crap. > > Not IMO anyway. > > As for "Deborah Curtis readily admits she never "knew" Ian", she would have > known him better than most. Surely no-one ever really KNOWS anyone as well > you think you might? > > I might be wrong, but there seemed an under-current of being somewhat > anti-Corbijn in your message? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf > Of Hold > Sent: 12 July 2009 04:50 > To: PAUL RABJOHN > Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays > > OK, full throttle here... > > "Nailed"? To a cross? Not to rehash similar back-and-forth on the FAClist > and the Cerysmatic Message Board, but Control was (and is) crap. Inability > to direct actors (someone get Samantha Morton a muzzle [even latter-day > DeNiro and screaming Pacino would be appalled]), ugly cinematography > (there's only so much lack-of-talent that "going out of focus" will hide in > your music video cv), a weak screenplay (mistakenly basing your POV on a > still-angry widow/would-have-been-ex-wife's questionable book [Deborah > Curtis readily admits she never "knew" Ian]; not exactly a well-rounded, or > even insightful viewpoint), and an unforgivable teenage-Goth masturbatory > fantasy of a closing shot, adds up to bullshit in my book. (Shall we add in > worst re-creation of the Sex Pistols gig(s) in Manchester to boot?) Corbijn > was a desperate long-term wanna-be hanger on (approaching stalker), that > never came close to the Kevin Cummins iconography, yet got all the credit. > As for 24HPP, say what you will, at least it had a sense of humor. The > Factory crowd were much more the jokesters than "myth" has recognized. (Ask > the Buzzcocks. [Mice and jam!]) > > Bring it on. ;-) > > Steven > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 3:12 PM, PAUL RABJOHN > wrote: > > > well "control" nailed JD a lot better than "24hr party people". i quite > > enjoyed it , and i watched it with a couple of people who had no idea of > the > > factory story ; they enjoyed it just as a ripping yarn. likewise "TIE" > > wasn't the best thing ever but surely better than 90% of what gets > cranked > > out? > > > > looking forward to bruno now ;-) > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Hold > > *Cc:* idealcopy@smoe.org > > *Sent:* Friday, 10 July, 2009 3:56:18 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays > > > > Er, why are random producers listed alongside the performers on the > > soundtrack?!? > > "Control meets This Is > > England". Hmm, a match made in Hell. Sorry, but two of the most overrated > > films in recent memory. > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, keith a > >wrote: > > > > > Anyone seen this as yet? > > > > > > > > > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > Film based in 1979, with ex-Dalek I member as producer. A quote from > one > > > review says- "Control meets This Is England" > > > > > > > > > > > > Wire on the soundtrack LP > > > > > > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/soundtrack.html > > > > > > > > > > > > And Hughes mentions Wire in the press blurb below. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/music.html > > > > > > > > > > > > Erics, Liverpool > > > > > > By David A Hughes, Awaydays Producer > > > > > > The club featured in the movie is based on the legendary 'Erics'. Most > of > > > the bands whose tracks feature in AWAYDAYS played at the club. It was > on > > > Mathew Street in Liverpool, the same tacky backstreet where The Cavern > > used > > > to be. Kevin Sampson and I were both members. During 1978 & 79 , Eric's > > was > > > the center of my universe. I started going in 1977 during the punk > > > explosion, and from Erics dedicated audience of arty show-offs and > moody > > > Bowie clones came bands like Echo & The Bunnymen, Teardrop Explodes and > > > OMD. > > > One of my bands was Dalek I Love You, briefly mentioned in the the film > > > when > > > Elvis says 'Thought we was going to see Dalek tonight'. > > > > > > > > > We all had become used to watching emerging acts like Talking Heads, > > > Television, Devo, Magazine, The Human League and Wire and reckoned we > > could > > > do something ourselves. If you managed to think of a quirky band name > and > > > had a couple of edgy songs, you could be supporting The Clash the > > following > > > week. > > > > > > There weren't many members early on. You got to know most of the > > audience. > > > Thursday was local bands night, free to members and 50 whole pee to > > guests! > > > Most of the Liverpool scene and Zoo bands made their debuts on a > Thursday > > > at > > > Erics. > > > > > > We saw a lot of raw, art-punk bands who went on to become > > platinum-selling > > > pop bands. The Police, Simple Minds, Ultravox, for 75p or a pound. I > > > remember about 30 people watching The Human League knowing the best > days > > of > > > punk were now over, electro had arrived... and I was staggered to see > how > > > Joy Division progressed from being a pile of shite in one very early > gig > > to > > > jaw-dropping brilliance a couple of months later. > > > > > > I never heard a Beatles track played at Eric's. The regulars had a > dogged > > > (and predictable) anti-Beatles stance, and we all moved to the bar when > > > Souxsie & The Banshees played 'Helter Skelter'. Whatever they'd done to > > put > > > Liverpool on the map, we knew that Eric's was giving the city a chance > to > > > move on from the burden of The Fab Four. Through Roger Eagle's (Erics > > > owner) > > > zealous love of music from all nooks and crannies, we got to hear lots > of > > > reggae, weird Louisiana blues, Dub, German Electro and Rockabilly. All > > > these > > > sounds filtered through to the emerging local bands. From Rockin Dopsie > & > > > His Cajun Twisters to Tapper Zukie and Matumbi, a night at Eric's was > an > > > education - truly the world in one city. > > > > > > Erics opened your eyes to other things as well. The gents toilets were > > > unusable. Everything went on in the Ladies - and I mean everything. The > > > club > > > was in a basement, so when there was a high tide you could feel the > damp > > in > > > the floor and the girls in their fishnet stocking feet would put their > > > painful pointy boots back on before the rising Mersey tide sent a few > > rats > > > scurrying across the dance floor. > > > > > > Above all else Eric's made me , a runty twerp from Birkenhead, feel > > > impossibly cool for long enough to land the drop dead gorgeous love of > my > > > life. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 07:53:01 +0000 (GMT) From: PAUL RABJOHN Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays well we'll never know how well deborah curtis "knew" ian. but stories she tells give a good insight into the guy's life , i mean how else would we know he voted Tory? its just part of the picture , not all of it. i think the biggest failing of a lot of recent biopics (the doors , sid n nancy , 24HPP) is that you know the bands and the chosen actors just don't overly remind you of the bands in question. like having agent cooper playing keyboards in the doors ; bad idea. whereas i thought in "control" they got JD off fairly well , particularly the Curtis role. as opposed to 24HPP where the singer was pretty poor and 2 very well known sitcom actors as the guitarists didn't help matters much. followed by an even less convincing Mondays. not saying Control is a majestic feat of cinema , just saying it's much better IMO than most movies of this type. which isn't exactly vast praise. p ________________________________ From: Hold To: keith a Cc: PAUL RABJOHN ; idealcopy@smoe.org Sent: Sunday, 12 July, 2009 7:52:26 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays My badly made point with Deborah Curtis, is that her side of the story is just that. Her side. One side. And that one side is not a particularly strong one, as the reason anyone has ever made and will ever make any film "about" Ian Curtis/Joy Division is the music, and Deborah Curtis was deliberately and actively excluded from just that. Am I anti-Corbijn? Only in that I think he's an over-rated one trick pony. If you've seen one Corbijn vid, you've seen them all. The biggest failing of Control is Corbijn's absolute inability to direct (or shape) any of the actors performances. (A sadly typical result of many music video directors when making the jump to features.) Constant (& abrupt) changes in tone, even within single scenes, show a distinct lack of directorial "control". On Sun, Jul 12, 2009 at 2:25 PM, keith a wrote: It wasn't perfect, but it wasn't crap. > >Not IMO anyway. > >As for "Deborah Curtis readily admits she never "knew" Ian", she would have >known him better than most. Surely no-one ever really KNOWS anyone as well >you think you might? > >I might be wrong, but there seemed an under-current of being somewhat >anti-Corbijn in your message? > > > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf >Of Hold >Sent: 12 July 2009 04:50 >To: PAUL RABJOHN >Cc: idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays > >OK, full throttle here... > >"Nailed"? To a cross? Not to rehash similar back-and-forth on the FAClist >and the Cerysmatic Message Board, but Control was (and is) crap. Inability >to direct actors (someone get Samantha Morton a muzzle [even latter-day >DeNiro and screaming Pacino would be appalled]), ugly cinematography >(there's only so much lack-of-talent that "going out of focus" will hide in >your music video cv), a weak screenplay (mistakenly basing your POV on a >still-angry widow/would-have-been-ex-wife's questionable book [Deborah >Curtis readily admits she never "knew" Ian]; not exactly a well-rounded, or >even insightful viewpoint), and an unforgivable teenage-Goth masturbatory >fantasy of a closing shot, adds up to bullshit in my book. (Shall we add in >worst re-creation of the Sex Pistols gig(s) in Manchester to boot?) Corbijn >was a desperate long-term wanna-be hanger on (approaching stalker), that >never came close to the Kevin Cummins iconography, yet got all the credit. >As for 24HPP, say what you will, at least it had a sense of humor. The >Factory crowd were much more the jokesters than "myth" has recognized. (Ask >the Buzzcocks. [Mice and jam!]) > >Bring it on. ;-) > >Steven > >On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 3:12 PM, PAUL RABJOHN >wrote: > > >> well "control" nailed JD a lot better than "24hr party people". i quite >> enjoyed it , and i watched it with a couple of people who had no idea of >the >> factory story ; they enjoyed it just as a ripping yarn. likewise "TIE" >> wasn't the best thing ever but surely better than 90% of what gets cranked >> out? >> >> looking forward to bruno now ;-) >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* Hold >> *Cc:* idealcopy@smoe.org >> *Sent:* Friday, 10 July, 2009 3:56:18 AM >> *Subject:* Re: [idealcopy] Awaydays >> >> Er, why are random producers listed alongside the performers on the >> soundtrack?!? >> "Control meets This Is >> England". Hmm, a match made in Hell. Sorry, but two of the most overrated >> films in recent memory. >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 11:29 AM, keith a > >wrote: >> >> > Anyone seen this as yet? >> > >> > >> > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/ >> > >> > >> > >> > Film based in 1979, with ex-Dalek I member as producer. A quote from one >> > review says- "Control meets This Is England" >> > >> > >> > >> > Wire on the soundtrack LP >> > >> > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/soundtrack.html >> > >> > >> > >> > And Hughes mentions Wire in the press blurb below. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > http://www.awaydaysthemovie.com/music.html >> > >> > >> > >> > Erics, Liverpool >> > >> > By David A Hughes, Awaydays Producer >> > >> > The club featured in the movie is based on the legendary 'Erics'. Most >of >> > the bands whose tracks feature in AWAYDAYS played at the club. It was on >> > Mathew Street in Liverpool, the same tacky backstreet where The Cavern >> used >> > to be. Kevin Sampson and I were both members. During 1978 & 79 , Eric's >> was >> > the center of my universe. I started going in 1977 during the punk >> > explosion, and from Erics dedicated audience of arty show-offs and moody >> > Bowie clones came bands like Echo & The Bunnymen, Teardrop Explodes and >> > OMD. >> > One of my bands was Dalek I Love You, briefly mentioned in the the film >> > when >> > Elvis says 'Thought we was going to see Dalek tonight'. >> > >> > >> > We all had become used to watching emerging acts like Talking Heads, >> > Television, Devo, Magazine, The Human League and Wire and reckoned we >> could >> > do something ourselves. If you managed to think of a quirky band name >and >> > had a couple of edgy songs, you could be supporting The Clash the >> following >> > week. >> > >> > There weren't many members early on. You got to know most of the >> audience. >> > Thursday was local bands night, free to members and 50 whole pee to >> guests! >> > Most of the Liverpool scene and Zoo bands made their debuts on a >Thursday >> > at >> > Erics. >> > >> > We saw a lot of raw, art-punk bands who went on to become >> platinum-selling >> > pop bands. The Police, Simple Minds, Ultravox, for 75p or a pound. I >> > remember about 30 people watching The Human League knowing the best days >> of >> > punk were now over, electro had arrived... and I was staggered to see >how >> > Joy Division progressed from being a pile of shite in one very early gig >> to >> > jaw-dropping brilliance a couple of months later. >> > >> > I never heard a Beatles track played at Eric's. The regulars had a >dogged >> > (and predictable) anti-Beatles stance, and we all moved to the bar when >> > Souxsie & The Banshees played 'Helter Skelter'. Whatever they'd done to >> put >> > Liverpool on the map, we knew that Eric's was giving the city a chance >to >> > move on from the burden of The Fab Four. Through Roger Eagle's (Erics >> > owner) >> > zealous love of music from all nooks and crannies, we got to hear lots >of >> > reggae, weird Louisiana blues, Dub, German Electro and Rockabilly. All >> > these >> > sounds filtered through to the emerging local bands. From Rockin Dopsie >& >> > His Cajun Twisters to Tapper Zukie and Matumbi, a night at Eric's was an >> > education - - truly the world in one city. >> > >> > Erics opened your eyes to other things as well. The gents toilets were >> > unusable. Everything went on in the Ladies - and I mean everything. The >> > club >> > was in a basement, so when there was a high tide you could feel the damp >> in >> > the floor and the girls in their fishnet stocking feet would put their >> > painful pointy boots back on before the rising Mersey tide sent a few >> rats >> > scurrying across the dance floor. >> > >> > Above all else Eric's made me , a runty twerp from Birkenhead, feel >> > impossibly cool for long enough to land the drop dead gorgeous love of >my >> > life. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V11 #113 ********************************