From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V10 #419 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, July 9 2008 Volume 10 : Number 419 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Torrent say: [Craig Grannell ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: [nemeth.marcell@sziget.hu] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: ["David McKenzie" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: ["Jon Whitney" ] [idealcopy] EMI new boss says: [Tim ] [idealcopy] Remasters of first 3 ["Sean -" ] Re: [idealcopy] EMI new boss says: [elektrolad ] [idealcopy] EMI ["First Last" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 09:50:29 +0100 From: Craig Grannell Subject: [idealcopy] Torrent say: > Do most people agree that it is ok to download from the internet, > products > that you own on LP's and Cassettes? > I mean to replace them with digital? From a personal standpoint, I wouldn't give a monkey's if someone downloaded one of my eBooks for free if they already have a print copy, and the same would be true of audio if I was in the habit of releasing music widely. The exception would be if a different form of the release shows up (like a 2CD with a bonus CD) - downloading that isn't replacing an existing copy. That said, the whole piracy angle is increasingly insulting and patronising. When I've actually paid to enter a cinema, I don't want some fucking ad telling me to NOT BE BAD. If I've paid for a DVD, I don't want to sit through an unskippable PIRACY IS BAD notice. The irony in all of this is that pirate versions of product are often superior to that put out by the companies, due to the companies treating everyone as a potential criminal, and not as a valued customer. Kind of a shame everyone's bigging up the majors for allowing DRM-free product on some services, what with the likes of Bleep having done this from the very beginning. The majors only did this when their hand was forced by Apple's success, and even now only EMI allows DRM-free product on iTunes, which shows how spiteful and short-sighted the likes of Sony are. Personally, I'm hoping to see that mooted change in British law, which would finally provide this country with official fair-use rights. I should be able to rip CDs to iPods totally legally if they're my own. I should be able to dump my NDS carts to an R4, if they're all my own. The fact I can't legally do this is absurd. > as for the little bands - they will have to make due without the > sharecropper advance system which seldom resulted in anything other > than massive profits for the labels and ultimate bankruptcy by the > artists Of all people (what with him now being staggeringly wealthy), Moby had some interesting stuff to say about this a while back. His thinking was that the good, hard-working recording artists would end up much like anyone else in employment - earning a living, but not rolling in millions. For some, the huge wodges of cash are no doubt part of the appeal, but such people are likely to create less exciting music. But for those who are happy to plug along and earn a 'typical' wage, that's a pretty good way to work. Craig ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 10:45:02 +0200 (CEST) From: nemeth.marcell@sziget.hu Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: If you download an album that was ripped from a low-priced, non-remastered CD, probably it's okay. But if you make it from a recently issued remastered CD (that may even has some added bonus tracks), I don't think claiming you do have the analog version would stand a legal action. M. > Do most people agree that it is ok to download from the internet, products > that you own on LP's and Cassettes? > I mean to replace them with digital? > > Just wanted to hear what people think. > > Glenn P > > > On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Tim wrote: > >> Well, since i stupidly got all excited and "pre-ordered" on Friday night >> only to realise its in my local shops now. (I presumed the release date >> had >> been put back to 15th...thats what it says on Amazon.uk) >> >> Not been dispatched yet so I probably won't get it for a few days I >> think >> i'm gonna resort to downloading cos I wanna hear it now!!!! I have paid >> for >> it after all. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> David McKenzie wrote: >> >>> shhh >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:08 AM, wrote: >>> >>>> Object's been up on soulseek for weeks......... >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: elektrolad >>>> Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 1:57 am >>>> Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: >>>> >>>> --- On Sun, 6/7/08, Glenn Page wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> found this online >>>>>> *http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1540578/32025464/* >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Someone's been VERY naughty... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> e >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>> Not happy with your email address?. >>>>> Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses >>>>> available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 05:58:49 -0500 From: "David McKenzie" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: The question was (I think) regarding the ethics of downloading. As for the legality of downloads, that would be dependent on a number of factors, not the least of which being jurisdiction. In the US, there is theory and practice. The theory is that such downloads would be covered in existing copyright law under "fair use'. This is the right to make copies of copyright protected material for personal use and backup. The practice of the RIAA is to sue the bejebus out of individuals of limited means (single moms are a favorite) on the assumption that they will settle for a substantial sum which is only a fraction of the lawsuit. And this has worked, because the vast majority of people will cough up $2-10K to make the problem go away, rather spending 2-5 times that in legal fees while risking loss of the legal expenses and the full amount asked if they lose in defense of their interpretation of the 'fair use' aspect of copyright law. This, in spite of the prevailing law in support of "fair use". It's just too risky that an older judge wll not have the wisdom to apply an old doctrine to a newer technology. Morality is a slipry slope - I have mine, you have yours, and you can find stakeholders at every point in the whole music industry who will agree with yours, whatever it be. But, I ask those opposed to downloading as an absolute wrong if they have ever sold or purchased a used disc, and if so, have they ever sold a used promotional copy. In the first case, the benefit to the artist (if any) is non-existant on the second go round, and in the second case, the artist has actually subsidized the manufacture of the material. What about taping off the radio? Inferior quality to be sure, but so are MP3s. Some people care, some don't. On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 3:45 AM, wrote: > If you download an album that was ripped from a low-priced, non-remastered > CD, probably it's okay. But if you make it from a recently issued > remastered CD (that may even has some added bonus tracks), I don't think > claiming you do have the analog version would stand a legal action. > > M. > >> Do most people agree that it is ok to download from the internet, products >> that you own on LP's and Cassettes? >> I mean to replace them with digital? >> >> Just wanted to hear what people think. >> >> Glenn P >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Tim wrote: >> >>> Well, since i stupidly got all excited and "pre-ordered" on Friday night >>> only to realise its in my local shops now. (I presumed the release date >>> had >>> been put back to 15th...thats what it says on Amazon.uk) >>> >>> Not been dispatched yet so I probably won't get it for a few days I >>> think >>> i'm gonna resort to downloading cos I wanna hear it now!!!! I have paid >>> for >>> it after all. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> David McKenzie wrote: >>> >>>> shhh >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:08 AM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> Object's been up on soulseek for weeks......... >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: elektrolad >>>>> Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 1:57 am >>>>> Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: >>>>> >>>>> --- On Sun, 6/7/08, Glenn Page wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> found this online >>>>>>> *http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1540578/32025464/* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Someone's been VERY naughty... >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> e >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>> Not happy with your email address?. >>>>>> Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses >>>>>> available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 07:17:12 -0400 From: "Jon Whitney" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: It's legal to download whatever is uploaded. It's probably not ethical to UPLOAD, especially in cases where you have an advance CD or something. Which is why I, as a small record label, don't send advances out. I wait till it's available for sale then send out promos and stuff. As for the RIAA's lawsuits, they're all being thrown out these days and the RIAA is being countersued for invasion of privacy and installing malware on consumers' computers. Uploading doesn't constitute piracy in the way that making copies of something and selling them on the street corner does. Besides the RIAA only cares about their stuff: four companies, that's it. They couldn't give a flying rat's ass about Pink Flag, Killer Pimp, or any other non-member. Additionally, promos are not illegal to sell either, no matter what the record label prints on them. On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 6:58 AM, David McKenzie wrote: > The question was (I think) regarding the ethics of downloading. As > for the legality of downloads, that would be dependent on a number of > factors, not the least of which being jurisdiction. > In the US, there is theory and practice. > The theory is that such downloads would be covered in existing > copyright law under "fair use'. This is the right to make copies of > copyright protected material for personal use and backup. > The practice of the RIAA is to sue the bejebus out of individuals of > limited means (single moms are a favorite) on the assumption that > they will settle for a substantial sum which is only a fraction of the > lawsuit. And this has worked, because the vast majority of people > will cough up $2-10K to make the problem go away, rather spending 2-5 > times that in legal fees while risking loss of the legal expenses and > the full amount asked if they lose in defense of their interpretation > of the 'fair use' aspect of copyright law. > This, in spite of the prevailing law in support of "fair use". It's > just too risky that an older judge wll not have the wisdom to apply an > old doctrine to a newer technology. > > Morality is a slipry slope - I have mine, you have yours, and you can > find stakeholders at every point in the whole music industry who will > agree with yours, whatever it be. > But, I ask those opposed to downloading as an absolute wrong if they > have ever sold or purchased a used disc, and if so, have they ever > sold a used promotional copy. In the first case, the benefit to the > artist (if any) is non-existant on the second go round, and in the > second case, the artist has actually subsidized the manufacture of the > material. > What about taping off the radio? Inferior quality to be sure, but so > are MP3s. Some people care, some don't. > > > > On Tue, Jul 8, 2008 at 3:45 AM, wrote: >> If you download an album that was ripped from a low-priced, non-remastered >> CD, probably it's okay. But if you make it from a recently issued >> remastered CD (that may even has some added bonus tracks), I don't think >> claiming you do have the analog version would stand a legal action. >> >> M. >> >>> Do most people agree that it is ok to download from the internet, products >>> that you own on LP's and Cassettes? >>> I mean to replace them with digital? >>> >>> Just wanted to hear what people think. >>> >>> Glenn P >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 2:40 PM, Tim wrote: >>> >>>> Well, since i stupidly got all excited and "pre-ordered" on Friday night >>>> only to realise its in my local shops now. (I presumed the release date >>>> had >>>> been put back to 15th...thats what it says on Amazon.uk) >>>> >>>> Not been dispatched yet so I probably won't get it for a few days I >>>> think >>>> i'm gonna resort to downloading cos I wanna hear it now!!!! I have paid >>>> for >>>> it after all. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> David McKenzie wrote: >>>> >>>>> shhh >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:08 AM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Object's been up on soulseek for weeks......... >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: elektrolad >>>>>> Date: Monday, July 7, 2008 1:57 am >>>>>> Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Torrent say: >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On Sun, 6/7/08, Glenn Page wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> found this online >>>>>>>> *http://www.demonoid.com/files/details/1540578/32025464/* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Someone's been VERY naughty... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> e >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> __________________________________________________________ >>>>>>> Not happy with your email address?. >>>>>>> Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses >>>>>>> available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html > - -- Brainwashed Inc: brainwashed.com | Brainwashed Recordings | Killer Pimp Music | Brainwaves 2008 Festival P.O. Box 7 / Arlington, MA 02476 / USA streaming radio  podcasts  reviews  store  music fests ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2008 02:21:45 +0100 From: Tim Subject: [idealcopy] EMI new boss says: "EMI wants to help performers and bands to "monetise their work" through sponsorship deals with firms, similar to those in the football industry, and linking up local bands with local businesses." That is the most un rock n roll thing ever. Tossers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 20:50:28 -0500 From: "Sean -" Subject: [idealcopy] Remasters of first 3 Hello-- I just ordered the remastered cd's of "Pink Flag", "Chairs Missing" and "154" a few days ago to replace my old ones. Aside from the sad deletion of the EP from "154" (bummer), are these remasters significantly superior? I'm assuming since Wire themselves worked on the remastering that I'm in for some prime listening. And since "Object 47" is still a week off for me I thought some old school Wire would do me well over the weekend. dot dot dot etc. Sean np: "The Ideal Copy" - -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 2008 19:16:56 -0700 (PDT) From: elektrolad Subject: Re: [idealcopy] EMI new boss says: Kind of like what Live Nation is already doing: http://www.billboard.com/bbcom/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003825334 Maybe EMI really are being nice and are trying to help? Keep their own pockets lined from others work!!! HA HA! e - --- On Tue, 8/7/08, Tim wrote: > From: Tim > Subject: [idealcopy] EMI new boss says: > To: "Ideal Copy" > Date: Tuesday, 8 July, 2008, 9:21 PM > "EMI wants to help performers and bands to > "monetise their work" through > sponsorship deals with firms, similar to those in the > football industry, > and linking up local bands with local businesses." > > That is the most un rock n roll thing ever. Tossers. __________________________________________________________ Not happy with your email address?. Get the one you really want - millions of new email addresses available now at Yahoo! http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/ymail/new.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 13:08:39 +0800 From: "First Last" Subject: [idealcopy] EMI An aside to the EMI remasters I thought EMI were still selling arms but that was Thorn EMI Still, I had to Wiki it, as you do these days........ Interesting list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_modern_armament_manufacturers These will be the open ones & not covert I guess? Tim B. NP Kills - Alphabet Pony ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V10 #419 ********************************