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To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org
Subject: idealcopy-digest V10 #133
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idealcopy-digest        Wednesday, July 4 2007        Volume 10 : Number 133



                               Today's Subjects:
                               -----------------
  Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP          ["David McKenzie" <davidmack@gmail.com>]
  Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP                               [MarkBursa@aol.com]
  [idealcopy] Re: we're all devo          [Michael Halsted <halsted@ilm.com>]
  Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP  [MonochromaticMan / elektrolad <xj23@yahoo.com>]
  RE: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP  ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" <B.Clements@bepp.co.uk]
  Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP        ["Keith A" <keith.indoorminer@virgin.net>]
  Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP  [MonochromaticMan / elektrolad <xj23@yahoo.com>]
  [idealcopy] Mark wrote.................  [Ari <threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com>]
  Re: [idealcopy] Re: we're all devo  [PAUL RABJOHN <paulrabjohn@btinternet.]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 08:39:24 -0500
From: "David McKenzie" <davidmack@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP

You may bge on to something
What if you could load your <insert wireless-enabled player of choice> at
the shop?
The current shopping experience for me is
1.    Buy the CD
2.    Take it home.
3.    Rip it.
4.    Inventory and add to a shelf where it sits, largly unplayed.

This has actually varied very little since the days when I bought a record,
took it home, taped it an placed it on a shelf.
Pre-recorded tapes fidelity was weak, and the record fidelity degraded after
the first dozen or so plays.

Now convenience takes the place of fidelity, but I still want the CD for a
'permanent' copy and for the occasional opportunity to listen full fidelity
and full volume.

The marketing and distribution model needs considerable work, but I am
confident someone will find a suitably marketable package and delivery for
music.
(It's just "none of the above" for current models)


On 7/2/07, Tim <tim@kidsindestructible.com> wrote:
>
> Clements, Bruno - BUP wrote:
> > ...that might account for the 'greedy shareholders' line in the note.
> >
> >
>
> I was a big fan but I say Greedy Fopp for buying up Music Zone (who had
> previously gotten greedy and bought up the MVC chain). Fopp Ate Itself!
>
> Its a Shame because prior to its silly expansion it must surely have
> been doing OK with its niche market of more mature fans who like to buy
> music on a medium rather than downloading it or waiting for Amazon to
> deliver it wrapped in a huge swathe of pulped rainforest. It could have
> weathered the decline in CD sales? It did sell DVDs and Books as well!
>
> Still, a healthy number of record shops survive in Manchester and "the
> kids" seem to be crazy for Vinyl in this city at least. Not just old
> stuff, ..7" vinyl seems to be the way to get your new band noticed once
> again if the new releases section at Piccadilly Records is anything to
> go by.
>
> Fact: People like hanging out in record shops. People don't buy CDs so
> much. Some clever bastard will find a way to combine the "Record Shop"
> with selling digital music, and if they're really clever, opening up
> access to the still vast amount of un-mined back catalogue and more
> obscure corners of music.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 10:19:25 EDT
From: MarkBursa@aol.com
Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP

>>The current shopping experience for me is
1.     Buy the CD
2.    Take it home.
3.    Rip  it.
4.    Inventory and add to a shelf where it sits, largly  unplayed.<<


 
Same here, pretty much. 

And I'm not complaining, despite the amount of space storing vinyl  & CDs 
takes up....
 
I still really struggle with the concept of spending my hard-earned on a  
load of bits and bytes.


 
It's just a really unsatisfying purchase. A computer file. With  restrictions 
and crippled MP3 sound. Whoop-de-doo. 
 
OK, I can burn it onto a CD and print out a laser printed cover. So now I  
have something that looks shit to accompany my shit-sounding computer  file.
 
Fine if it's an unreleased live recording or some such, but why should I  
have to carry out the entire manufacturing process myself just to ensure I  have 
a backed-up tangible "thing" for my 79p-per-track album?
 
Not that I'm a luddite. I love the iPod and use it all the time for  
travelling. But I mainly use it in the car on on long-haul flights and it's  competing 
with a lot of ambient noise in both cases, so MP3 compression is  less of an 
issue.
 
So how can I be turned into a digital consumer? How about  better quality 
audio than CD? This would mean a big file - several  gigabytes - not easy to 
download unless you have considerable patience (and it  is the impatience of 
attention-deficient teenagers that is driving  this unhappy situation. Download and 
delete rather than read &  burn!).
 
Would providing hi-res digital audio be something suited to a shop? You  
wouldn't need stock - but how would you browse? Kiosks? And even with the very  
best technology, it'd take a while for fifty quid bloke to download 10 albums  
onto his memory stick. And still no proper sleeves etc.
 
No easy solution I fear. Meanwhile support your local specialist  shop....
 
Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 09:55:02 -0700
From: Michael Halsted <halsted@ilm.com>
Subject: [idealcopy] Re: we're all devo

The whole catalog of Devo is in desperate need of
remastering.  I believe the Duty Now For The Future
disc that has New Traditionalists on it as well is
a straight use of the LP master.  The copy that came
out on Collectables in the US about a year or so ago
is a bit better but not by much.

Some day they'll be shown the love.

My 3 year old daughter calls Oh No! It's Devo "Potato"
and follows the lyrics to Peek-A-Boo as instructions -
Devo is perfectly good subversive children's music (except
probably the Hardcore series and some of Recombo DNA) and 
I have no idea why they supported the evil that is DEVO2.0...
($$$)



>Glad to read a few words about my early-teen favourites.  I was vaguely
>tempted to travel to Manchester but baulked at the ticket price.  I saw Devo
>at Newcastle City Hall in 1980.  My first gig, aged 13, and though young and
>impressionable thought they were fantastic.
>I saw a DVD of them playing at some outdoor festival in the USA at some
>point in the late 90s and they were looking a bit worse for wear even then.
>And Jerry Casale looks like he's morphing into Garry Shandling
>Did they show any of their films Paul?  One memory of Newcastle's film show
>is of Booji Boy getting his head crushed in some kind of printing press and
>then having bandages removed - bit vague, but quite funny at the time.
>I think it's only the first album which stands up down the years.  I
>recently picked up Duty Now For The Future on CD at knock down price, and it
>sounded pretty flat and dated (except SIB).  Say what you like about Eno...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 18:04:51 +0100 (BST)
From: MonochromaticMan / elektrolad <xj23@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP

I'm all for this, but mp3 is not the format.
I'm currently ripping just about everything to play on
the ipod at work, but, alas I only have 30G. So I
switch out a lot.
I hate buying from itunes cause the bitrate is so low.
Other sites (Beatport for example) offer 320 bit mp3s
or full wav files.

I still want a good permanent copy with liner notes.

XXLiMUTE374


- --- David McKenzie <davidmack@gmail.com> wrote:

> You may bge on to something
> What if you could load your <insert wireless-enabled
> player of choice> at
> the shop?
> The current shopping experience for me is
> 1.    Buy the CD
> 2.    Take it home.
> 3.    Rip it.
> 4.    Inventory and add to a shelf where it sits,
> largly unplayed.
> 
> This has actually varied very little since the days
> when I bought a record,
> took it home, taped it an placed it on a shelf.
> Pre-recorded tapes fidelity was weak, and the record
> fidelity degraded after
> the first dozen or so plays.
> 
> Now convenience takes the place of fidelity, but I
> still want the CD for a
> 'permanent' copy and for the occasional opportunity
> to listen full fidelity
> and full volume.
> 
> The marketing and distribution model needs
> considerable work, but I am
> confident someone will find a suitably marketable
> package and delivery for
> music.
> (It's just "none of the above" for current models)
> 
> 
> On 7/2/07, Tim <tim@kidsindestructible.com> wrote:
> >
> > Clements, Bruno - BUP wrote:
> > > ...that might account for the 'greedy
> shareholders' line in the note.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I was a big fan but I say Greedy Fopp for buying
> up Music Zone (who had
> > previously gotten greedy and bought up the MVC
> chain). Fopp Ate Itself!
> >
> > Its a Shame because prior to its silly expansion
> it must surely have
> > been doing OK with its niche market of more mature
> fans who like to buy
> > music on a medium rather than downloading it or
> waiting for Amazon to
> > deliver it wrapped in a huge swathe of pulped
> rainforest. It could have
> > weathered the decline in CD sales? It did sell
> DVDs and Books as well!
> >
> > Still, a healthy number of record shops survive in
> Manchester and "the
> > kids" seem to be crazy for Vinyl in this city at
> least. Not just old
> > stuff, ..7" vinyl seems to be the way to get your
> new band noticed once
> > again if the new releases section at Piccadilly
> Records is anything to
> > go by.
> >
> > Fact: People like hanging out in record shops.
> People don't buy CDs so
> > much. Some clever bastard will find a way to
> combine the "Record Shop"
> > with selling digital music, and if they're really
> clever, opening up
> > access to the still vast amount of un-mined back
> catalogue and more
> > obscure corners of music.
> 



      ___________________________________________________________ 
Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for
your free account today http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 18:20:25 +0100 
From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" <B.Clements@bepp.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP

Flac's the future - if players were made to support playback, which is
perfectly possible. 

Apple, of course, want people to buy their aac files. At least MP3s can be
played back on just about anything digital audio player and do sound pretty
good to my ears...

B


www.thisisnorthcliffe.co.uk

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Northcliffe Media Ltd. Registered Office: Northcliffe Accounting Centre, PO Box 6795 St George Street, Leicester, LE1 1ZP, co no 272225, Registered in England and Wales, VAT no 243571174.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 16:48:55 +0100
From: "Keith A" <keith.indoorminer@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP

What are you lot talking about?

We still use these in Wales.

http://www.gramophones.info/gramophones.wondergram.html




np Low - Drums & Guns



- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: <MarkBursa@aol.com>
To: <davidmack@gmail.com>; <idealcopy@smoe.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP


>>>The current shopping experience for me is
> 1.     Buy the CD
> 2.    Take it home.
> 3.    Rip  it.
> 4.    Inventory and add to a shelf where it sits, largly  unplayed.<<
>
>
>
> Same here, pretty much.
>
> And I'm not complaining, despite the amount of space storing vinyl  & CDs
> takes up....
>
> I still really struggle with the concept of spending my hard-earned on a
> load of bits and bytes.
>
>
>
> It's just a really unsatisfying purchase. A computer file. With 
> restrictions
> and crippled MP3 sound. Whoop-de-doo.
>
> OK, I can burn it onto a CD and print out a laser printed cover. So now I
> have something that looks shit to accompany my shit-sounding computer 
> file.
>
> Fine if it's an unreleased live recording or some such, but why should I
> have to carry out the entire manufacturing process myself just to ensure I 
> have
> a backed-up tangible "thing" for my 79p-per-track album?
>
> Not that I'm a luddite. I love the iPod and use it all the time for
> travelling. But I mainly use it in the car on on long-haul flights and 
> it's  competing
> with a lot of ambient noise in both cases, so MP3 compression is  less of 
> an
> issue.
>
> So how can I be turned into a digital consumer? How about  better quality
> audio than CD? This would mean a big file - several  gigabytes - not easy 
> to
> download unless you have considerable patience (and it  is the impatience 
> of
> attention-deficient teenagers that is driving  this unhappy situation. 
> Download and
> delete rather than read &  burn!).
>
> Would providing hi-res digital audio be something suited to a shop? You
> wouldn't need stock - but how would you browse? Kiosks? And even with the 
> very
> best technology, it'd take a while for fifty quid bloke to download 10 
> albums
> onto his memory stick. And still no proper sleeves etc.
>
> No easy solution I fear. Meanwhile support your local specialist  shop....
>
> Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 23:43:40 +0100 (BST)
From: MonochromaticMan / elektrolad <xj23@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP

Very compact for the dj!

- --- Keith A <keith.indoorminer@virgin.net> wrote:

> What are you lot talking about?
> 
> We still use these in Wales.
> 
>
http://www.gramophones.info/gramophones.wondergram.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> np Low - Drums & Guns
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: <MarkBursa@aol.com>
> To: <davidmack@gmail.com>; <idealcopy@smoe.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2007 3:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FOPP RIPP
> 
> 
> >>>The current shopping experience for me is
> > 1.     Buy the CD
> > 2.    Take it home.
> > 3.    Rip  it.
> > 4.    Inventory and add to a shelf where it sits,
> largly  unplayed.<<
> >
> >
> >
> > Same here, pretty much.
> >
> > And I'm not complaining, despite the amount of
> space storing vinyl  & CDs
> > takes up....
> >
> > I still really struggle with the concept of
> spending my hard-earned on a
> > load of bits and bytes.
> >
> >
> >
> > It's just a really unsatisfying purchase. A
> computer file. With 
> > restrictions
> > and crippled MP3 sound. Whoop-de-doo.
> >
> > OK, I can burn it onto a CD and print out a laser
> printed cover. So now I
> > have something that looks shit to accompany my
> shit-sounding computer 
> > file.
> >
> > Fine if it's an unreleased live recording or some
> such, but why should I
> > have to carry out the entire manufacturing process
> myself just to ensure I 
> > have
> > a backed-up tangible "thing" for my 79p-per-track
> album?
> >
> > Not that I'm a luddite. I love the iPod and use it
> all the time for
> > travelling. But I mainly use it in the car on on
> long-haul flights and 
> > it's  competing
> > with a lot of ambient noise in both cases, so MP3
> compression is  less of 
> > an
> > issue.
> >
> > So how can I be turned into a digital consumer?
> How about  better quality
> > audio than CD? This would mean a big file -
> several  gigabytes - not easy 
> > to
> > download unless you have considerable patience
> (and it  is the impatience 
> > of
> > attention-deficient teenagers that is driving 
> this unhappy situation. 
> > Download and
> > delete rather than read &  burn!).
> >
> > Would providing hi-res digital audio be something
> suited to a shop? You
> > wouldn't need stock - but how would you browse?
> Kiosks? And even with the 
> > very
> > best technology, it'd take a while for fifty quid
> bloke to download 10 
> > albums
> > onto his memory stick. And still no proper sleeves
> etc.
> >
> > No easy solution I fear. Meanwhile support your
> local specialist  shop....
> >
> > Mark
> 



      ___________________________________________________________
Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it
now.
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2007 20:17:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: Ari <threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com>
Subject: [idealcopy] Mark wrote.................

And I'm not complaining, despite the amount of space storing vinyl  & CDs 
takes up....
 
 
>>I still really struggle with the concept of spending my hard-earned on a  
load of bits and bytes.<<
That's all yer gettin' anyway laddie, 'cept it's placed upon a solid surface and spins round and round.
 
Not that I'm a luddite. I love the iPod and use it all the time for  
travelling. But I mainly use it in the car on on long-haul flights and it's  competing 
with a lot of ambient noise in both cases, so MP3 compression is  less of an 
issue.
 
>>So how can I be turned into a digital consumer? How about  better quality 
audio than CD? This would mean a big file - several  gigabytes - not easy to 
download unless you have considerable patience (and it  is the impatience of 
attention-deficient teenagers that is driving  this unhappy situation. Download and 
delete rather than read &  burn!).<<
We already have a better sound than c.d, DVD audio..............................
sure, the download time would spoof ya if that's how we're going to purchase it,
 but we'll be going 'beyond cable' within a decade I suspect.
 slow download time should be a thing of the past. As for the ultimate future of sound,
 I'd have thought a 'central bank' of music by subscription (like cable t.v/radio) would
 be the way to go in the home, assuming the rates were 'reasonable', which they'd have to be.

>>Would providing hi-res digital audio be something suited to a shop?<<
There'd be no need for a 'shop/store' fopp and the like would own the 'central bank'

>>You  wouldn't need stock - but how would you browse? Kiosks?<<
Computer screens.

 >>And even with the very  best technology, it'd take a while for fifty quid bloke to download 
10 albums  onto his memory stick. And still no proper sleeves etc.<<
Ah but with a central bank you wouldn't need to download anything BUT one and zero's 
(to your idvdpod player) if you're going to do away with the physical c.d/audiodvd format, 
think of all the room we'd free up in our homes, my music/dvd collection takes a huge 
amount of room in my tiny abode.
 
>>No easy solution I fear.<<
Now say after me 'central bank central bank central bank' or is that all too futuristic and 
anti business-model/freedom to own what i want thingy for you? I think the 'new wave' 
of independent-of-record-companies artists out there bodes well for that threat.the 
'central bank' concept would have to be censor free to work though. rated chanels perhaps? 
 
>>Meanwhile support your local specialist  shop....
 
Mark<<
always. A
 
can't find that charity? http://www.charityads.org/




 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate 
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2007 08:26:44 +0100 (BST)
From: PAUL RABJOHN <paulrabjohn@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: we're all devo

well the 2-lps-on-one-cd isseus they've done are certainly very cheap (#5 in fopp.....) but i've still just got the original albums on vinyl. last week i bought a really good 2cd anthology "pioneers who got scalped" which has about 4/5 tracks off each album plus lots of rarities , cost me #8 on ebay. sounds really good , and would be a good place to start for anyone who thought they lost it after the first album. 
   
  i've never heard devo 2.0. sounded a pretty devo idea to me though.p

Michael Halsted <halsted@ilm.com> wrote:
  The whole catalog of Devo is in desperate need of
remastering. I believe the Duty Now For The Future
disc that has New Traditionalists on it as well is
a straight use of the LP master. The copy that came
out on Collectables in the US about a year or so ago
is a bit better but not by much.

Some day they'll be shown the love.

My 3 year old daughter calls Oh No! It's Devo "Potato"
and follows the lyrics to Peek-A-Boo as instructions -
Devo is perfectly good subversive children's music (except
probably the Hardcore series and some of Recombo DNA) and 
I have no idea why they supported the evil that is DEVO2.0...
($$$)



>Glad to read a few words about my early-teen favourites. I was vaguely
>tempted to travel to Manchester but baulked at the ticket price. I saw Devo
>at Newcastle City Hall in 1980. My first gig, aged 13, and though young and
>impressionable thought they were fantastic.
>I saw a DVD of them playing at some outdoor festival in the USA at some
>point in the late 90s and they were looking a bit worse for wear even then.
>And Jerry Casale looks like he's morphing into Garry Shandling
>Did they show any of their films Paul? One memory of Newcastle's film show
>is of Booji Boy getting his head crushed in some kind of printing press and
>then having bandages removed - bit vague, but quite funny at the time.
>I think it's only the first album which stands up down the years. I
>recently picked up Duty Now For The Future on CD at knock down price, and it
>sounded pretty flat and dated (except SIB). Say what you like about Eno...

------------------------------

End of idealcopy-digest V10 #133
********************************