From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V9 #203 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, August 5 2006 Volume 09 : Number 203 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] arthur lee ["Mileta Okiljevic" ] Re: [idealcopy] arthur lee ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: O.T: Israel........... [Derek White Subject: [idealcopy] arthur lee http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=musicNews&storyID=20 06-08-04T074445Z_01_N04343951_RTRIDST_0_MUSIC-ARTHURLEE-DC.XML ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 09:15:33 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] arthur lee > http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=musicNews&storyID=20 > 06-08-04T074445Z_01_N04343951_RTRIDST_0_MUSIC-ARTHURLEE-DC.XML > If this doesn't work, you can use: http://tinyurl.com/kzuk5 Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: O.T: Israel........... MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >>It's fair to say, though, that Israel has, in the past, made good attempts to solve the problem through diplomatic process.<< Under Rabin, yes, some progress was made. But look where that got him. //// And IIRC, didn't Erhud(?) Barak offer to give Arafat / the PLO pretty much all they wanted except for the right of long-time exiles to return, and the abandonment of a couple of contentious 'settlements' such as Al-Homa (?sp.?):- an open goal that Arafat singularly failed to grasp the opportunity of, and sadly, but for this lack of vision and / or courage, he arguably could have saved everyone the subsequent bloodshed. >> The bottom line is that there are people who want the Jewish population eliminated...driven into the ocean, driven out entirely. << The history of the region is highly complex, as I'm sure you're aware, and can't be rationalised down to a simple statement like that. /////// Indeed so. This ongoing tit-for-tat blood-feud is a tangled diplomat's worst nightmare, and it's been going on pretty much unabated for 2 or 3 thousand years, with multiple components: deep-rooted racial / tribal enmity with hideously tangled territorial dispute(s) intertwined. The whole morass has defeated the smartest minds and the best of intentions for an age, and unless and until people of sincere goodwill with a genuine desire to end the conflict sit down with no agendas and no preconditions, then it'll just be more of the same. I personally think the situation as we currently see it is insoluble, because positions are so entrenched, attitudes being hardened by people on both sides losing their nearest and dearest to this bomb, or that bullet. I realise it's a counsel of despair, but I imagine that people on both sides of the divide will still be plotting mayhem and death on the day I personally get lowered into the pine overcoat. :-( >> Israel can either deal with the situation or not deal with the situation and the former option may be the safest option for all.<< It's not black and white though, is it. "By "deal with the situation" do you mean slaughtering women & childern? Taking out cars full of refugees with precision missiles? Not exactly solving the problem, is it. There's no easy answer. But whatever it is, it ain't what Israel is currently doing. Israel's actions will not deter Hizbollah, or other muslim terrorist groups. Indeed, it's arguable that Israel's previous incursions into Lebanon in the 80s caused Hizbollah to come into being.... Mark ///// Quite. They were probably Hizbollah's most fruitful years as regards finding new recruits. Expect to see a similar radicalisation taking place *now* if this current offensive turns into a long-term incursion. It is not my intention to trivialise the most serious of situations, but The current IDF tactic of 'collective punishment' , ie flattening civilian houses because Hizbollah fighters may have launched a rocket from a nearby alley, is something of a sledgehammer approach, where a scalpel is called for. Shrinking this complex geo-political nightmare to an analogy in microcosm, wouldn't the 'law' appropriate to the scenario justifiably take a dim veiw if I were to, say, flatten an entire street (and it's population, be they man, woman or child) because an indeterminate house in that street harboured person or persons unknown who'd grievously injured my nearest and dearest? Were I to do such a thing, how much of such actions would be seen as a serious attempt to bring the guilty to book, and how much would be percieved as acting out of base revenge ? If it's the 'militants' they want, then why not employ their special forces on 'snatch squad' missions? Get the *real* fighters & their rockets, rather than civilians ? Surely they get enough access to US spy satelite intelligence, and their own drone plane flights to be able to do this, & thus cause minimal casualties among non-combatants? No offence is intended here, but how sickly ironic is it that Isreal's military doctrine of "collective responsibility, collective punishment" is so redolent of what became of many towns and villages on the Eastern front during WW2? (eg Lidice after Heydrich's assassination) . That's the depths to which things are sinking, IMO. dw

Check me out! Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2006 14:50:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: O.T: Israel........... MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >>It's fair to say, though, that Israel has, in the past, made good attempts to solve the problem through diplomatic process.<< Under Rabin, yes, some progress was made. But look where that got him. //// And IIRC, didn't Erhud(?) Barak offer to give Arafat / the PLO pretty much all they wanted except for the right of long-time exiles to return, and the abandonment of a couple of contentious 'settlements' such as Al-Homa (?sp.?):- an open goal that Arafat singularly failed to grasp the opportunity of, and sadly, but for this lack of vision and / or courage, he arguably could have saved everyone the subsequent bloodshed. >> The bottom line is that there are people who want the Jewish population eliminated...driven into the ocean, driven out entirely. << The history of the region is highly complex, as I'm sure you're aware, and can't be rationalised down to a simple statement like that. /////// Indeed so. This ongoing tit-for-tat blood-feud is a tangled diplomat's worst nightmare, and it's been going on pretty much unabated for 2 or 3 thousand years, with multiple components: deep-rooted racial / tribal enmity with hideously tangled territorial dispute(s) intertwined. The whole morass has defeated the smartest minds and the best of intentions for an age, and unless and until people of sincere goodwill with a genuine desire to end the conflict sit down with no agendas and no preconditions, then it'll just be more of the same. I personally think the situation as we currently see it is insoluble, because positions are so entrenched, attitudes being hardened by people on both sides losing their nearest and dearest to this bomb, or that bullet. I realise it's a counsel of despair, but I imagine that people on both sides of the divide will still be plotting mayhem and death on the day I personally get lowered into the pine overcoat. :-( >> Israel can either deal with the situation or not deal with the situation and the former option may be the safest option for all.<< It's not black and white though, is it. "By "deal with the situation" do you mean slaughtering women & childern? Taking out cars full of refugees with precision missiles? Not exactly solving the problem, is it. There's no easy answer. But whatever it is, it ain't what Israel is currently doing. Israel's actions will not deter Hizbollah, or other muslim terrorist groups. Indeed, it's arguable that Israel's previous incursions into Lebanon in the 80s caused Hizbollah to come into being.... Mark ///// Quite. They were probably Hizbollah's most fruitful years as regards finding new recruits. Expect to see a similar radicalisation taking place *now* if this current offensive turns into a long-term incursion. It is not my intention to trivialise the most serious of situations, but The current IDF tactic of 'collective punishment' , ie flattening civilian houses because Hizbollah fighters may have launched a rocket from a nearby alley, is something of a sledgehammer approach, where a scalpel is called for. Shrinking this complex geo-political nightmare to an analogy in microcosm, wouldn't the 'law' appropriate to the scenario justifiably take a dim veiw if I were to, say, flatten an entire street (and it's population, be they man, woman or child) because an indeterminate house in that street harboured person or persons unknown who'd grievously injured my nearest and dearest? Were I to do such a thing, how much of such actions would be seen as a serious attempt to bring the guilty to book, and how much would be percieved as acting out of base revenge ? If it's the 'militants' they want, then why not employ their special forces on 'snatch squad' missions? Get the *real* fighters & their rockets, rather than civilians ? Surely they get enough access to US spy satelite intelligence, and their own drone plane flights to be able to do this, & thus cause minimal casualties among non-combatants? No offence is intended here, but how sickly ironic is it that Isreal's military doctrine of "collective responsibility, collective punishment" is so redolent of what became of many towns and villages on the Eastern front during WW2? (eg Lidice after Heydrich's assassination) . That's the depths to which things are sinking, IMO. dw

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