From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V9 #191 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, July 21 2006 Volume 09 : Number 191 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #188: OT: Syd [tony clough ] Re: [idealcopy] O.T.?: Goth box set due from Rhino Records [PAUL RABJOHN ] [idealcopy] Tim Wrote: [Ari ] [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #190 OT;Syd and Kraftwerk [tony cloug] Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Kraftwerk/Neu! [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... ["Keith A" ] Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... ["Keith A" ] Fwd: [idealcopy] Imagine if... [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... ["Keith A" ] [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #190 OT;Syd and Kraftwerk [tony cloug] Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... ["Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #188: OT: Syd > From: Derek White > Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Syd Barrett dies > > There speaks a true cynic ;-) > > Unfortunately, it's probably an accurate prediction. As with the > expected rush to eulogise and talk bollocks about the guy, and his > condition... you can see the articles now:- ".. was it the acid or was > he a little out of kilter anyhow?...." > I Just hope that his most ....erm...obsessive fans and/or the press > (mainly the music press , but also perhaps other journalistic variants) > will just leave his family be to deal with their own very personal > loss..... > Monochromatic Man wrote: > Let's see how fast EMI can get another compilation > together... > This seems to do Syd a bit of justice (the book this guy wrote is succinct and re-tells the story in a way that common sense rather than media hysteria or rock'n'roll hyperbole prevails) - www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2271741,00.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:03:21 +0100 (BST) From: PAUL RABJOHN Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... yeah , i was at the 1984 gig where they opened with LWTUA and that was superb. mind you , nowadays they play loads of JD live. on the "get ready" tour they played more JD songs than tracks off the new album. mercifully , i guess , as we were saved the pleasure of watching barney "rocking the shack" or anytihng similar.... p fernando wrote: On Jul 19, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Keith A wrote: >> In regards to Keith A's imagination gone ugly/contorted yet making >> sense > > Well that makes a change ; ) > >> So, NewOrder had many more "places" to go >> than PF after their respective leaders left, which I think, lends >> credence to their success. > > And at least they had the decency to change their name. and not play their Joy Division songs, except at the event of death (LWTUA for the Paradise NYC owner) or birthdays (LWTUA for Rob Gretton's), both in 1984 if I recall. Also Decades and LWTUA on Ian's death anniversary. > >> Had Syd left after The Wall-equivalent, then I think that Keith's >> comparison to T-Rex could be more apt. Wait, that is what happened to >> that thing called PF after Waters left, didn't it? > > Are you comparing my man with Waters? I'll see you outside, Mr! ; ) Well, I just wanted to get sparks flying. Look, I could have said when Mr. Wright was kicked out during The Final Cut! (ouch) :) cheers! - -f. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:13:28 +0100 (BST) From: PAUL RABJOHN Subject: Re: [idealcopy] O.T.?: Goth box set due from Rhino Records wellll , the thing to remember here is that you had a clutch of bands in 80-82 bridging the gap between punk and full-on goth. basically it was killing joke , bauhaus , uk decay and theatre of hate. this lot then spawned the 83/84 movement of southern death cult / sex gang children / sisters of mercy etc etc. most of whom started well but turned into dull rock bands and spawned a really horrible bunch of acts like the mission / all about eve / balaam and the angel. by this point i had fled from the scene and didn't play another goth-type record for a couple of decades. i've just started to be able to play some of those records again , there was some good stuff in this ilk , honest ;-) uk decay were the local heroes where i grew up , i saw them loads. fabulous act , sort of bridging the gap between bauhaus and killing joke. but saddling temselves with a name that made people think they were something along the lines of the uk subs. that , combined with a fiercely indie mentality and the records being out of print for 2 decades makes them a bit of a great lost band sadly. their time will come again.... i'm jealous of uri for seeing that dead kennedys/ukdk tour ; must've been fabulous but i missed it. foiled again. p Tim wrote: I generally hate compilations too. Make yr own I say. Although I liked the Martin Hannett one that came out recently. I note the inclusion of both Killing Joke and the Cocteau Twins labelled as Goth. I will argue the toss with anyone that Cocteaus are not a goth band. Their musical palette extends so much further than such a narrow, flour-caked, badly dressed musical cul-de-sac as goth. (Nor are Joy Division for that matter...they are no more a Goth band than David Bowie is a glam rock act) Anyway ex-listee Graham Rowland once attacked me with an umbrella for daring to call Killing Joke a goth band..and citing the argument that I liked the Cocteau Twins so I must like goth music anyway. I suppose ultimately, for this compilation "Goth" covers any kind of music that 'Goths' listen to. Can't see Robin & Liz making up, dressing up as Dracula and playing the Whitby Goth Festival alongside Gene Loves Gezebel anytime soon though. Ari wrote: > I hate compilations, it's always (obviously) someone elses 'take' on > what's good. anyway: I suspect that anyone that's into > 'goth/newage/alt.etc. probably owns the original c.d's anyway: only > time I ever do a compilation is when I'm having a party and don't > want people messin' with my collection.there are a few names on this > list I don't know but I'm blowed if I'd pay-out the price of a 4-c.d > set to find out. A ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 02:21:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Tim Wrote: >>I will argue the toss with anyone that Cocteaus are not a goth band. Their musical palette extends so much further than such a narrow,flour-caked, badly dressed musical cul-de-sac as goth. (Nor are Joy Division for that matter...they are no more a Goth band than David Bowie is a glam rock act)<< Agreed, I would argue that The Cure aren't a goth band either: Robert himself hates that tag. as for P.F: give me the early stuff any day of the week, not that, other than a recently aquired dsotm (on dvd audio) sent by a friend on this list,I have any of their stuff. dsotm I do like though : why I don't know , by the time final cut came out I was an 'anti-fan' and, when they announced their demise shortly after my only reaction was 'thank god for that'. A Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:41:37 +0100 From: tony clough Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #190 OT;Syd and Kraftwerk > Keith A wrote: > >> >> Now I know there's subtle differences - Marc was way into his career and >> Syd Barrett was just into his - but can someone please explain why >> people like post-Syd Pink Floyd so much? > > No idea. > > I should imagine a lot of people who like post-Syd PF don't care much > for Piper at the Gates of Dawn, in the same way that a lot of fans of > 80s Roxy Music don't care for the Eno-era stuff (I remember reading > letters of complaint in the Evening News after they last played > Manchester for playing all this weird early stuff and not enough off > Avalon etc) There's one good album in the post-Barrett pre-Dark Side years. Unfortunately its spread over about five albums. The nearest you can get to a collection of the better stuff is either the live album from Ummagumma or the Live at Pompei DVD - I'm talking about: One Of These Days/Set The Controls for the Heart of the Sun/Echoes/Careful With That Axe Eugene and (maybe) Saucerful of Secrets Thanks to whoever put that Kraftwerk link up. I think the information there is wrong. I think its the short-lived three piece version of the band with Schnieder, Rother and Dinger and minus Hutter ! Tony ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 06:30:37 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... >>must admit I'm surprised that Mr Bursa hasn't jumped to Pink Floyd's defence here. He talks about little else when you meet him. ; )<< Ho ho. Mr Bursa has been working 16-hour days since saturday and has had no time to field thes enquires. But as you've flushed me out.... It's odd to find myself defending yer Floyd against the sort of arguments I myself held for 20 years. While Syd-era stuff always sounded fine in the post-punk environment, post-Syd stuff was very much seen as archetypal dinosaur prog - ponderous, musoid etc. I held these views firmly until the mid-90s, at which point I listened to DSOTM for the first time in decades. And of course it's not what I thought it was. 1 - it's not prog. It's high-concept, but certainly not in a Rick Wakeman sort of way. It's not overloaded with flash musicianship - teh rhythm section is functional at best; Gilmour is astonishingly economical for the time; Wright heeps . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 07:05:57 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... Ignore last post - it's half-finished, but the f**in computer crashed half-way through. Will finish later. . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 07:10:19 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Kraftwerk/Neu! Not sure if the full K/Neu! four-piece performed or not - Certainl Ralf & Florian invited Rother & Dinger to join, but Ralf then flounced for unspecified reasons, leaving the Schneider/Rother/Dinger line-up that played the astonishing Ruckstossgondoliere on Beat Club.... I'd actually say that was more like Neu! + Florian rather than Kraftwerk. Certainly the exercise birthed Neu! - after R&F made up Rother& Dinger decided to continue... Talking of which, Rother & Moebius are playing the ICA this very night. Yay! Anyone else going? ATKeith? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:47:09 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... > Well, I just wanted to get sparks flying. Look, I could have said > when Mr. Wright was kicked out during The Final Cut! (ouch) :) Yeah, never really understood that. He was an original member, gets sacked and comes back as a salaried member. Is that right? Why? And why did he accept that? Anyone know??? K. np Steve Peregrine Took - Crazy Diamond ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:26:03 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... > Ignore last post - it's half-finished, but the f**in computer crashed > half-way through. Phew. That's a relief. I thought that as you seemed to be on the brink of defending post-Syd Floyd there was an altogether more sinister reason. Like a man with a gun against your head ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:38:59 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Fwd: [idealcopy] Imagine if... - ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: giluz Date: Jul 20, 2006 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... To: Keith A On 7/20/06, Keith A wrote: > > > Yeah, never really understood that. He was an original member, gets sacked > and comes back as a salaried member. Is that right? > > Why? And why did he accept that? Anyone know??? > > For the salary, obviously. Besides, what else was there for him? Retire to his mom's basement? giluz - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:42:19 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... > > Yeah, never really understood that. He was an original member, gets sacked > > and comes back as a salaried member. Is that right? > > > > Why? And why did he accept that? Anyone know??? > > > > > For the salary, obviously. Besides, what else was there for him? Retire to > his mom's basement? > > giluz Point taken. But salary or a percentage of PF royalties? I know what I'd prefer. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 10:41:37 +0100 From: tony clough Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #190 OT;Syd and Kraftwerk > Keith A wrote: > >> >> Now I know there's subtle differences - Marc was way into his career and >> Syd Barrett was just into his - but can someone please explain why >> people like post-Syd Pink Floyd so much? > > No idea. > > I should imagine a lot of people who like post-Syd PF don't care much > for Piper at the Gates of Dawn, in the same way that a lot of fans of > 80s Roxy Music don't care for the Eno-era stuff (I remember reading > letters of complaint in the Evening News after they last played > Manchester for playing all this weird early stuff and not enough off > Avalon etc) There's one good album in the post-Barrett pre-Dark Side years. Unfortunately its spread over about five albums. The nearest you can get to a collection of the better stuff is either the live album from Ummagumma or the Live at Pompei DVD - I'm talking about: One Of These Days/Set The Controls for the Heart of the Sun/Echoes/Careful With That Axe Eugene and (maybe) Saucerful of Secrets Thanks to whoever put that Kraftwerk link up. I think the information there is wrong. I think its the short-lived three piece version of the band with Schnieder, Rother and Dinger and minus Hutter ! Tony ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 12:04:49 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... >> Well, I just wanted to get sparks flying. Look, I could have said >> when Mr. Wright was kicked out during The Final Cut! (ouch) :) > > Yeah, never really understood that. He was an original member, gets sacked > and comes back as a salaried member. Is that right? > > Why? And why did he accept that? Anyone know??? > There's bits and pieces in interviews. This is paraphrased, but basically, he had developed a severe drug addiction just before sessions started for The Wall. He showed up for some of the early sessions, but was sacked halfway thru it. Waters wanted his name struck from the group, but the others insisted he get credit. They fought so hard about album credit that they finally agreed to list the members alphabetically on The Wall - check the sleeve and see. ^_^ If he's on the Final Cut, that's news to me - he's not listed in the credits. There's a lot about that album that's pretty vague anyway. For example, Dave Gilmour co-produced, and was paid for it, but only on the stipulation that his name not appear in the credits. ^_^ According to that Mojo interview with Dave Gilmour, Waters had thoroughly cowed Mason and Wright. Dave said that he even had to hire session drummers for Momentary Lapse of Reason (post Final Cut album) because Dave couldn't play right anymore. Mason was so embarassed that he tightened up his drumming, and by the tour he was back to normal again. As for Wright, he went thru a successful rehab, and was brought back as a permanent member later - post Momentary, I think. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 15:28:11 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Imagine if... And, of course, when you email quickly, you send it from the wrong e-mail account. Just in case smoe.org rejects the other post - which I'm guessing it will - here's the letter I tried to send + one UPDATE: Cheers, Paul - --------------------------------------------- And, of course, when you try to type quickly.... typos creep in. > According to that Mojo interview with Dave Gilmour, Waters had thoroughly > cowed (Nick) Mason and (Rick) Wright. Dave said that he even had to hire > session drummers for Momentary Lapse of Reason (post Final Cut album) > because *NICK* couldn't play right anymore. Mason was so embarassed that > he tightened up his drumming, and by the tour he was back to normal again. > As for Wright, he went thru a successful rehab, and was brought back as a > permanent member later - post Momentary, I think. > Also - the part about Wright being paid - now my (notoriously weird) memory is maybe remembering that although they fired him just as sessions for The Wall started, they needed him for the tour and so brought him back as a paid musician. It was something weird like that. I'll see if this interview is on-line. I have a feeling I read it in a Blender or saw it in a documentary somewhere. UPDATE: Wikipedia confirms this. "Battling both personal problems and an increasingly rocky relationship with Roger Waters, he was fired from Pink Floyd during recording sessions for The Wall in 1979. However, he was retained as a salaried session musician during the subsequent live concerts to promote that album in 1980 and 1981. Ironically, Wright became the only member of Pink Floyd to profit from those hugely spectacular shows, since the net financial loss had to be paid out of pocket by the three remaining "full-time" members. In 1983, Pink Floyd released the only album on which Richard Wright does not appear: Waters' swan song The Final Cut." Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:05:38 -0700 From: "toiler on the sea" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] O.T.?: Goth box set due from Rhino Records ah......raising the spectre of graham - ----- Original Message ----- From: "PAUL RABJOHN" To: "Tim" ; "Ideal Copy" Cc: "Ari" Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 2:13 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] O.T.?: Goth box set due from Rhino Records > wellll , the thing to remember here is that you had a clutch of bands in > 80-82 bridging the gap between punk and full-on goth. basically it was > killing joke , bauhaus , uk decay and theatre of hate. this lot then > spawned the 83/84 movement of southern death cult / sex gang children / > sisters of mercy etc etc. most of whom started well but turned into dull > rock bands and spawned a really horrible bunch of acts like the mission / > all about eve / balaam and the angel. by this point i had fled from the > scene and didn't play another goth-type record for a couple of decades. > i've just started to be able to play some of those records again , there > was some good stuff in this ilk , honest ;-) > > uk decay were the local heroes where i grew up , i saw them loads. > fabulous act , sort of bridging the gap between bauhaus and killing joke. > but saddling temselves with a name that made people think they were > something along the lines of the uk subs. that , combined with a fiercely > indie mentality and the records being out of print for 2 decades makes > them a bit of a great lost band sadly. their time will come again.... > > i'm jealous of uri for seeing that dead kennedys/ukdk tour ; must've been > fabulous but i missed it. foiled again. p > > Tim wrote: > I generally hate compilations too. Make yr own I say. Although I liked > the Martin Hannett one that came out recently. > > I note the inclusion of both Killing Joke and the Cocteau Twins labelled > as Goth. > > I will argue the toss with anyone that Cocteaus are not a goth band. > Their musical palette extends so much further than such a narrow, > flour-caked, badly dressed musical cul-de-sac as goth. > (Nor are Joy Division for that matter...they are no more a Goth band > than David Bowie is a glam rock act) > > Anyway ex-listee Graham Rowland once attacked me with an umbrella for > daring to call Killing Joke a goth band..and citing the argument that I > liked the Cocteau Twins so I must like goth music anyway. > > I suppose ultimately, for this compilation "Goth" covers any kind of > music that 'Goths' listen to. > Can't see Robin & Liz making up, dressing up as Dracula and playing the > Whitby Goth Festival alongside Gene Loves Gezebel anytime soon though. > > > > > > Ari wrote: >> I hate compilations, it's always (obviously) someone elses 'take' on >> what's good. anyway: I suspect that anyone that's into >> 'goth/newage/alt.etc. probably owns the original c.d's anyway: only >> time I ever do a compilation is when I'm having a party and don't >> want people messin' with my collection.there are a few names on this >> list I don't know but I'm blowed if I'd pay-out the price of a 4-c.d >> set to find out. A ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V9 #191 *******************************