From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V9 #173 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, July 1 2006 Volume 09 : Number 173 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] OT- Plastelin - Muzika - Specijal ["Mileta Okiljevic" ] Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk ["dan bailey" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:58:04 +0200 From: "Mileta Okiljevic" Subject: [idealcopy] OT- Plastelin - Muzika - Specijal articles of Keith A . It's on english..:-)) OnLine magazin Plastelin - www.plastelin.com New Articles: Morrissey / KristeenYoung (The London Palladium), Sunday 28th May, 2006. (Author: Keith Astbury) The Nightingales (Liverpool Magnet Club), 30th May, 2006 (Author: Keith Astbury) http://www.plastelin.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=83 &Itemid=100 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:35:37 +0100 (BST) From: PAUL RABJOHN Subject: Re: Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening /////I think the problem with Reynolds' book is that he doesn't connect the chapters with a big idea, so the book reads like a series of mini-biogs. I'm glad he didn't try to bend the facts to fit some grand theory, but it doesn't make for a riveting read. isn't the "big theory" just the lineage of punk through to post-punk to new pop , showing how the music and personalities developed. how big a theory do you want? i like reynolds and i really enjoyed RIUASA. i just finished reading his previous book "the sex revolts" , which is a kind of analysis of gender in music (questioning male rebellion , looking at female musicians and different female takes on rebellion. i simplify....). now if you think RIUASA was a "dry" read , you'd love this ;-) in reynolds terms , RIUASA is dumbed down and populist , he reins in the academia but can really let rip on that front if required. i thought RIUASA again was just as readable as englands dreaming and the creation book , i guess subconsciously (consciously?) he was aiming at around that level. but groovy greil marcus? now that guy is hard work. never one to take a detour when he could mount a 50-page trek up some journalistic kilimanjaro , i think reynolds is just a way more interesting writer. marcus tries for big concepts but sometihng like "lipstick traces" is just a sprawling mess that loses any focus about half way through but sadly meanders on to an eventual conclusion an eternity later. surely reynolds is better than this. also i love the way simes doesn't just stick to peel/NME orthodoxy and is prepared to big up some of his own faves whilst handing out some cruel dismissals of those he thinks over-rated ( like having the guts to dismiss floyd , fat bob and radiohead as whining posh boys in one sentence then moving on to something he likes). not saying i entirely agree , but nobody's beyond criticism guys ;-) . similarly he puts down annie lennox beautifully in "sex revolts" , a real laugh out loud one in there if you find it. ah , what a lovely weekend for a riot if tomorrows footie goes badly :-) p Mark S - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith A" To: "P J Kane" ; Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening >> << In what way did you find Simon Reynolds' work hard going? Really >> surprised anybody should say something like this - Reynolds is a >> superb writer (in my professional opinion!) >> >> >> i would say his writing is dry and undynamic. it was like reading a >> history text book on the Russo-Japanese War. sure, all the facts are >> there and in the right order, and you get a sense of the chronology >> of happenings, but i don't FEEL anything from it. unlike say, Jon >> Savage or Greil Marcus.... > > I know this will be considered heresy here, but I have exactly the same > problem with Englands Dreaming. It's a subject that interests me greatly, > but I found Savages writing so dry that I have never got past the first > 100 > pages. > > And I can only read about clothes shops for so long, no matter what they > spawned! ; ) > > K. > > NP Can - ege bamyasi ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:06:06 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening > but groovy greil marcus? now that guy is hard work. never one to take a detour when he could mount a 50-page trek up some journalistic kilimanjaro , i think reynolds is just a way more interesting writer. marcus tries for big concepts but sometihng like "lipstick traces" is just a sprawling mess that loses any focus about half way through but sadly meanders on to an eventual conclusion an eternity later. surely reynolds is better than this. Not read this, but big rock biogs do tend to be dry, don't they. It's almost as if someone who's writing what they want to be classed as a definitive biography thinks that any style in the writing has to be removed from the text. It's like Woody Allen in his early serious films. They're trying too hard. A couple of examples for me - apart from Eng Dreaming - are Nick Drake by Patrick Humphries (yawn!) and Johnny Rogan's Morrissey/Marr: Severed Alliance. What a terrible writer. No wonder Moz wanted him to die in a motorway pile-up ; ) Keith np Wailing Souls - firehouse rock ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:18:48 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk Simon Reynolds has posted a whoping 58-page appendix to RIUASA on his website _http://faber.lateral.net/media/files/medialibrary_34592.pdf?rnd=1135015971_ (http://faber.lateral.net/media/files/medialibrary_34592.pdf?rnd=1135015971) which expolores the byways of post-punk in considerable detail (Wire content included). Be warned - this is the stuff that was too dry to include in even the UK version of the book, so if you Holy Greil fans want a rip-snorting phoiliosophical concept-fest you'll be very disappointed. But it is an essential read - and you can even download it on PDF and staple it to your copy of RIUASA if you're very, very anally retentive. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 01:49:29 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk Well I would have expected reynolds to investigate his facts more thoroughly. On page 39 there's a small piece about minimal compact. They did not exile themselves to France, but to Amsterdam and later Brussels, Colin did not produce Deadly Weapons but Raging Souls, and MC were not his backing band on Commercial Suicide. He did of course marry Malka and MC's track 'to get inside' is indeed superb. I'm one of those who think Reynolds' writing is not academic enough, and his book quite good in describing but less in analysing. A proper 'academic' approach, even only in the introduction, would have made things less vague and general. giluz On 7/1/06, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > > Simon Reynolds has posted a whoping 58-page appendix to RIUASA on his > website > > > > _http://faber.lateral.net/media/files/medialibrary_34592.pdf?rnd=1135015971_ > ( > http://faber.lateral.net/media/files/medialibrary_34592.pdf?rnd=1135015971 > ) > > > which expolores the byways of post-punk in considerable detail > (Wire content > included). > > Be warned - this is the stuff that was too dry to include in even the UK > version of the book, so if you Holy Greil fans want a rip-snorting > phoiliosophical concept-fest you'll be very disappointed. > > But it is an essential read - and you can even download it on PDF and > staple > it to your copy of RIUASA if you're very, very anally retentive. > > Mark > - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:05:51 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk >>Well I would have expected reynolds to investigate his facts more thoroughly. On page 39 there's a small piece about minimal compact. They did not exile themselves to France, but to Amsterdam and later Brussels, Colin did not produce Deadly Weapons but Raging Souls, and MC were not his backing band on Commercial Suicide. He did of course marry Malka and MC's track 'to get inside' is indeed superb.<< It's full of little niggles like that - Bruce & Graham didn't make an album called 354, for example - but the publishers aren't going to have a proof-reader with that level of knowledge. Note to publishers: my rates are competitive ;-) >>I'm one of those who think Reynolds' writing is not academic enough, and his book quite good in describing but less in analysing. A proper 'academic' approach, even only in the introduction, would have made things less vague and general.<< It's a tricky balance - academe vs entertainment. (sounds like a Scritti Politti album title!) If it had been any drier, I suspect a big publisher like Faber wouldn't have been interested... It hink Reynolds, Savage and Cavanagh all have got the balance just about right (though yes Keith, too much is made of Malcy's fucking clothes shop!) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Jul 2006 02:09:58 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk On 7/1/06, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > > > > > > > > It hink Reynolds, Savage and Cavanagh all have got the balance just about > right (though yes Keith, too much is made of Malcy's fucking clothes shop!) > > Mark > > My tastes are nore in the direction of Simon Frith and Lawrence Grossberg, but Savage certainly knows how to best combine between entertainment and the academy. giluz - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:41:10 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk >>My tastes are nore in the direction of Simon Frith and Lawrence Grossberg, but Savage certainly knows how to best combine between entertainment and the academy.<< Have to say I've never bothered with those "sociology of rock" type books - they're too much like college textbooks! Am I missing anything? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 20:52:57 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, June 30, 2006 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Simes and Post-punk > >>Well I would have expected reynolds to investigate his facts more > thoroughly. On page 39 there's a small piece about minimal compact. They did > not exile themselves to France, but to Amsterdam and later Brussels, Colin > did not produce Deadly Weapons but Raging Souls, and MC were not his backing > band on Commercial Suicide. He did of course marry Malka and MC's track 'to > get inside' is indeed superb.<< > > It's full of little niggles like that - Bruce & Graham didn't make an album > called 354, for example - but the publishers aren't going to have a > proof-reader with that level of knowledge. > > Note to publishers: my rates are competitive ;-) rest assured that i'll underbid you, mark, especially with unemployment looming (though i've got a job interview wednesday for the position of on-line news editor, or something like that, for the civil air patrol ... since it's headquartered at an air force base here, i guess my "worst president ever" decal, complete with a grimacing bush, has to come off my car's hatchback window. the electric hellfire club pentagram decal on the trunk too, i suppose.) dan ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V9 #173 *******************************