From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V9 #172 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, June 30 2006 Volume 09 : Number 172 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #171 [tony clough Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #171 > Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:33:59 GMT > From: "P J Kane" > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening > > << In what way did you find Simon Reynolds' work hard going? Really > surprised anybody should say something like this - Reynolds is a > superb writer (in my professional opinion!) >> > > i would say his writing is dry and undynamic. it was like reading a > history text book on the Russo-Japanese War. sure, all the facts are > there and in the right order, and you get a sense of the chronology > of happenings, but i don't FEEL anything from it. unlike say, Jon > Savage or Greil Marcus.... > > PJK Must admit it had that effect on me - more than competent but uninspired/inspiring. I thought that, given the list of interviewees and the nature of the times and participants, it would have been a spikier affair. I saw it being flogged off for B#2 at a remaindered book shop last week. Having said that I always complain about stuff where the writer takes more of a position (if, of course, I don't agree with it). I think Rip It Up suffers from devoting half its space to stuff from the early eighties which is mainly "post-punk" chronologically rather than spiritually. I don't think I'm alone in thinking (as I did at the time) that after 1980 what I'd perceived to be some kind of movement was all over. I assume the enhanced sales potential of the book in the form it came out was a big motivating factor. It does at least mean that there's still scope for someone to really get to grips with that intense period of 78-80..... Tony ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 08:34:01 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #171 >>Must admit it had that effect on me - more than competent but uninspired/inspiring. I thought that, given the list of interviewees and the nature of the times and participants, it would have been a spikier affair. << I said when it came out that it does suffer from the fact that Reynolds wasn't actually there - he was a 14-year-old kid in a suburban bedroom, reading the NME, listening to Peel and fantasising about taking drugs in Green Gartside's smelly, cockroach-infested squat. Whereas, say, Jon Savage's England's Dreaming is written from the point of view of an active participant in puink's vanguard. But post-punk deserves a refernce work, and Reynolds has delivered just that. These are stories that aren't often told. >>I saw it being flogged off for B#2 at a remaindered book shop last week. Having said that I always complain about stuff where the writer takes more of a position (if, of course, I don't agree with it). I think Rip It Up suffers from devoting half its space to stuff from the early eighties which is mainly "post-punk" chronologically rather than spiritually.<< Do you mean the "new pop" sections? I sort of agree - though it is what actually happened. Post-punk sincerity got replaced by a desire to be on Top of the Pops. Duran Duran were as much a product of Post-punk's primordial soup as Scritti Politti. So no surprise to find them both on ToTP a few years later. >> I don't think I'm alone in thinking (as I did at the time) that after 1980 what I'd perceived to be some kind of movement was all over.<< What, Punk? or Post-punk? Don't understand - Punk was effectively reduced to cliches by 78. Post-punk was still vibrant in 81 and 82, even though 'new pop' was with us by then - it all starts to go wrong after that.... >> It does at least mean that there's still scope for someone to really get to grips with that intense period of 78-80.....<< Eh?? What - The Lurkers, 999 and UK Subs? Or skinny-tie Noo Wave? Powerpop? What interesting elements of the "intense period of 78-80" are not covered in RIUASA? If you're talking about US punk, I agree, that's a different story entirely. But Between them , Savage, Reynolds and Dave Cavanagh's Creation Records book cover the UK from almost every angle. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:15:48 +0100 From: tony clough Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #171 - --On 29 June 2006 08:34 -0400 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: I saw it being flogged off for B#2 at a remaindered book shop last > week. Having said that I always complain about stuff where the writer > takes > more of a position (if, of course, I don't agree with it). I think Rip It > Up suffers from devoting half its space to stuff from the early eighties > which is mainly "post-punk" chronologically rather than spiritually.<< > > > > Do you mean the "new pop" sections? I sort of agree - though it is what > actually happened. Post-punk sincerity got replaced by a desire to be on > Top of the Pops. Duran Duran were as much a product of Post-punk's > primordial soup as Scritti Politti. So no surprise to find them both on > ToTP a few years later. Yeah, like I said, its chronologically what happened. From memory its literally half the book and I guess "new pop" would cover it. To be fair, I had friends that went along with this stuff happily but I could never see the link. In my earnest puritanism I was holding firm to stuff that would be unlikely to trouble the charts and this new stuff was clearly working to a more populist agenda. In retrospect it was inevitable. As I skimmed those chapters I can't remember if there was much New Romantic stuff in there. Now that movement frightened the life out of me. Punk/Bowie/Kraftwerk...never had such great influences manifested itself in such vapid nonsense. >>> I don't think I'm alone in thinking (as I did at the time) that after >>> 1980 > what I'd perceived to be some kind of movement was all over.<< > > > What, Punk? or Post-punk? Don't understand - Punk was effectively reduced > to cliches by 78. Post-punk was still vibrant in 81 and 82, even though > 'new pop' was with us by then - it all starts to go wrong after that.... You're right. I'm a couple of years out strictly speaking in that the likes of Ubu and This Heat were active till around 82 but even at the time I was conscious of a decline after its peaking throughout 79. > > > >>> It does at least mean that there's still scope for someone to really >>> get to > grips with that intense period of 78-80.....<< > > > > Eh?? What - The Lurkers, 999 and UK Subs? Or skinny-tie Noo Wave? > Powerpop? What interesting elements of the "intense period of 78-80" are > not covered in RIUASA? No, I'm afraid I'm sticking to my guns and saying that the definitive book on the whole thing is still to be written. None of this detracts from Reynold's achievement. His book is in the shops whereas the book I'm on about is only a wish in my head. Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 09:58:36 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #171 >>Yeah, like I said, its chronologically what happened. From memory its literally half the book and I guess "new pop" would cover it. To be fair, I had friends that went along with this stuff happily but I could never see the link. In my earnest puritanism I was holding firm to stuff that would be unlikely to trouble the charts and this new stuff was clearly working to a more populist agenda. In retrospect it was inevitable. As I skimmed those chapters I can't remember if there was much New Romantic stuff in there. Now that movement frightened the life out of me. Punk/Bowie/Kraftwerk...never had such great influences manifested itself in such vapid nonsense.<< Yet that "vapid nonsense" was created to a very large degree by the self-same post-punk experimentalists. Scritti.The Human League. Vice Versa became ABC. And so on. From all areas of post-punk, the charts became the target. It's hard to think of a 79/80 post-punk band that DIDN'T become markedly more commercial in 82/83. Heck, even The Fall glammed up with Brix, and more poppy stuff like C.R.E.E.P. >>You're right. I'm a couple of years out strictly speaking in that the likes of Ubu and This Heat were active till around 82 but even at the time I was conscious of a decline after its peaking throughout 79.<< I think Reynolds hits the nail oon the head when he talks towards the end of the bvook of "sincerity fatigue" - of post-punk running its course; being unable to sustain the intensity and uptightness. Reynolds talks of wanting to explore the "banned texts" of punk - blues rock, Beatles, Stones, Led Zep, Hendrix etc. It's no surprise that the next generation of new bands were more traditional; rooted in 60s pop etc - Smiths, Felt, Creation stuff, and on to the Stone Roses and the La's later in the decade. The seeds of Britpop being planted. >>No, I'm afraid I'm sticking to my guns and saying that the definitive book on the whole thing is still to be written. None of this detracts from Reynold's achievement. His book is in the shops whereas the book I'm on about is only a wish in my head.<< I suspect you'll have a long wait. There was a brief window of opportunity to write the definitive post-punk book, and Reynolds got his timing about right. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:11:39 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening > << In what way did you find Simon Reynolds' work hard going? Really > surprised anybody should say something like this - Reynolds is a > superb writer (in my professional opinion!) >> > > i would say his writing is dry and undynamic. it was like reading a > history text book on the Russo-Japanese War. sure, all the facts are > there and in the right order, and you get a sense of the chronology > of happenings, but i don't FEEL anything from it. unlike say, Jon > Savage or Greil Marcus.... I know this will be considered heresy here, but I have exactly the same problem with Englands Dreaming. It's a subject that interests me greatly, but I found Savages writing so dry that I have never got past the first 100 pages. And I can only read about clothes shops for so long, no matter what they spawned! ; ) K. NP Can - ege bamyasi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 15:32:35 +0100 From: tony clough Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #171 OT:Post punk - --On 29 June 2006 09:58 -0400 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: As I skimmed > those > chapters I can't remember if there was much New Romantic stuff in there. > Now that movement frightened the life out of me. > Punk/Bowie/Kraftwerk...never had such great influences manifested itself > in > such vapid nonsense.<< > > > Yet that "vapid nonsense" was created to a very large degree by the > self-same post-punk experimentalists. Scritti.The Human League. Vice > Versa became ABC. And so on. From all areas of post-punk, the charts > became the target. It's hard to think of a 79/80 post-punk band that > DIDN'T become markedly more commercial in 82/83. Heck, even The Fall > glammed up with Brix, and more poppy stuff like C.R.E.E.P. You're right in general. In my Stalinist way I mainly kept to a hardcore of bands at that time - This Heat, Pop Group, Pere Ubu - I missed the point of the Fall at the time and felt they were a bit soft ! (my one big lapse of judgment I think). I must admit though that, although it was a few years later than 82/83, even Ubu made a bid for the charts. I was playing "We Have The Technology" in (I think) 88 when my young daughter commented "This was on Roland Rat". (She was right.) >>> No, I'm afraid I'm sticking to my guns and saying that the definitive >>> book > on the whole thing is still to be written. None of this detracts from > Reynold's achievement. His book is in the shops whereas the book I'm on > about is only a wish in my head.<< > > > I suspect you'll have a long wait. There was a brief window of > opportunity to write the definitive post-punk book, and Reynolds got his > timing about right. > > Mark > Yep, I reckon about 7 years now "post-punk" is on the map, if it follows the same pattern of fashionability I've observed with (excuse the term ) "Krautrock" over the years. Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 11:41:55 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #171 OT:Post punk >>You're right in general. In my Stalinist way I mainly kept to a hardcore of bands at that time - This Heat, Pop Group, Pere Ubu - I missed the point of the Fall at the time and felt they were a bit soft ! (my one big lapse of judgment I think). I must admit though that, although it was a few years later than 82/83, even Ubu made a bid for the charts. I was playing "We Have The Technology" in (I think) 88 when my young daughter commented "This was on Roland Rat". (She was right.)<< Underlines the point basically - even the most extreme post-punk era musicians had a tilt at the charts - Eg Genesis P Orridge circa Godstar PTV. >>Yep, I reckon about 7 years now "post-punk" is on the map, if it follows the same pattern of fashionability I've observed with (excuse the term ) "Krautrock" over the years.<< Well, "post-punk" as a set of stylistic devices for guitar rock bands is now firmly established. There's a small menu of options - 1 - "choppy/jerky" (citing Wire, XTC and Go4 as influences) and coming out on a good day as Franz Ferdinand; on a reasonable day as The Futureheads; on a bad day as The Young Knives or Razorlight. 2 - "dark, portentions" (citing Joy Division and, er, New Order) - good day - - Interpol; bad day - Killers/Editors; really bad day - The Bravery 3 - er, that's it.. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 20:44:27 +0100 From: "Mark Short" Subject: Re: Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening I think the problem with Reynolds' book is that he doesn't connect the chapters with a big idea, so the book reads like a series of mini-biogs. I'm glad he didn't try to bend the facts to fit some grand theory, but it doesn't make for a riveting read. Mark S - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith A" To: "P J Kane" ; Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 3:11 PM Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening >> << In what way did you find Simon Reynolds' work hard going? Really >> surprised anybody should say something like this - Reynolds is a >> superb writer (in my professional opinion!) >> >> >> i would say his writing is dry and undynamic. it was like reading a >> history text book on the Russo-Japanese War. sure, all the facts are >> there and in the right order, and you get a sense of the chronology >> of happenings, but i don't FEEL anything from it. unlike say, Jon >> Savage or Greil Marcus.... > > I know this will be considered heresy here, but I have exactly the same > problem with Englands Dreaming. It's a subject that interests me greatly, > but I found Savages writing so dry that I have never got past the first > 100 > pages. > > And I can only read about clothes shops for so long, no matter what they > spawned! ; ) > > K. > > NP Can - ege bamyasi ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 14:33:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] recommended reading for anything >>I think the problem with Reynolds' book is that he doesn't connect the chapters with a big idea, so the book reads like a series of mini-biogs. << That's because all he's doing is reporting the facts, to do otherwise would have/ could have turned it into a 'novel'. Personally I like what he's done with this book, unembelished though it is. >>I'm glad he didn't try to bend the facts to fit some grand theory,<< Precisely >> but it doesn't make for a riveting read.<< HMmmm I was 'riveted' when I read it, but then I've been a Cure fan since '78, and any tidbit is devoured with glee. A Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 19:02:09 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] recommended reading for anything In a message dated 29/06/2006 23:16:32 GMT Daylight Time, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: >>I think the problem with Reynolds' book is that he doesn't connect the chapters with a big idea, so the book reads like a series of mini-biogs. << That's because all he's doing is reporting the facts, to do otherwise would have/ could have turned it into a 'novel'.<< Heaven forbid. It's not just reportage though - it's very much filtered through his own tastes. Inevitably.... >>Personally I like what he's done with this book, unembelished though it is. >>I'm glad he didn't try to bend the facts to fit some grand theory,<< Precisely<< Would have been risible if he had - there was no unifying theme - just the liberation that anyone, no matter how incompetent, could make records. So long as you avoided the "banned texts" - no blues, no guitar solos etc. >> but it doesn't make for a riveting read.<< HMmmm I was 'riveted' when I read it, but then I've been a Cure fan since '78, and any tidbit is devoured with glee. A<< Of course Simon Reynolds hates the Cure - he considers them goths, which of course is what a lot of suburban types like him became.... and of course they were on a big label, not Rough Trade. As a result, he downplays the tremendous influence of 17Secs/Faith/Pornography at the time. One of the shortcomings of RIUASA - acknowldeged tacitly too on his blog (there's a link in there somewhere for a very well argued piece on where the Cure sat in 79-82. Don't ask nme for a link though!) MArk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 02:08:31 +0100 From: Tim Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT recommended World Cup listening P J Kane wrote: > > and i have to ask on this: > << And reading...Mick Fish 'Industrial Evolution: Through the 80s > with Cabaret Voltaire" - > > i have long been fascinated by and a fan of CabVol. Me too, they fascinate me but sometimes I like looking at their records and thinking about the Cabs more than I do listening to them if you know what I mean! I like them when they were with Chris Watson best, and also their very late stuff like "The Conversation" is this > available in the States? You can get it here http://www.safpublishing.com/store/system/store.htm no, wait, is it better written that this > POS "Tear It Up And Start Again" or whatever it was? goodness but > that man needs some writing lessons! Well I liked that book as well, but this is a different kind of book to that. if it is actually readable, > then i will try and find a copy. Its very readable. Its a funny little book. The author, Mick Fish, wrote a rather dry biog of the Cabs called 'Art of the Sixth Sense' in the mid 80s (which is included as an appendix to this new book). Instead of write a 3rd edition he instead wrote the whole story of his life as a council officer working at his local refuse depot and his wild weekends in Sheffield, partying with the Cabs, Clock DVA and the Sheffield industrial crowd. Theres a subtext about the decline of the Cabs music in the 80s (he's no fan of their post-Crackdown stuff) and the rise of Thatcherism as well... > okay, well, this wraps up my bi-yearly post to IdealCopy. thanks for > reading. now who else can recommend some recent records? any > thoughts on the new Sonic Youth disc Yes. Don't like it. Much ado about it being a 'pop' record but its not a very good pop record. I prefer it when they wig out for 10 minutes at a time. I loved Murray St and NYC Ghosts and Flowers but not keen on this one. But its only Sonic Youth innit? Who cares?!! ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V9 #172 *******************************