From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V9 #162 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, June 20 2006 Volume 09 : Number 162 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 [tony clough ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 / hifi sound [MarkBursa@aol.] Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 / hifi sound [tony clough Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 Hi, Picking up a few strands... Thanks for all the illumination regarding Ligeti/Kubrick. > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:23:34 +0100 > From: "Ian B" > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire and Tristram Shandy > Before I go back to the football, are there any opinions as to whether the > recent reissues are significantly enhanced listening experiences over and > above other issues. I'll pose the same question as reagrds the Eno/Byrne > recent reissue As I can't presently afford to buy the Wire box set I'm consoling myself with the thought that very few of the remastered efforts I've bought in recent times have been greatly improved. Where stuff was made available on CD in the early days of their manufacture there are definite improvements in definition and detail but the difference between something mastered now and in the last few years seems negligible to my ears. To be fair, living in a flat I listen at relatively low volume and on less than state- of- the- art equipment. > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:11:11 +0100 (BST) > From: Fergus Kelly > Subject: [idealcopy] Symphonic in persuasion > > Tony said: > > At the risk of stretching a point beyond credibility I > > think Ligeti stood > in relation to classical music in much the same way > that Wire stand to > pop/rock - the jokers in the pack, insiders and > outsiders at the same time, > simultaneously ironic and earnest. > > ((( Interesting you should make that comparison as it > was Colin who said, in Kevin's book, when referring to > the nature of Mike Thorne's listening habits, "He > could listen to Ligeti or X-Ray Spex." Mr Thorne just goes up and up in my estimation. My favourite classical composer remains Charles Ives and I noticed on Thorne's web page he has been involved with a realisation of Ive's "Universe Symphony". I say realisation as it was his last work and was left only in sketch form. I think there are now three realisations in existence - another one for the wants list. > > I still half-try to keep up with developments in as > many areas of music as > possible and I've dipped into contemporary classical > music a couple of > times in the last few years but I haven't found > anything truly remarkable > since Ligeti. Anyone got any suggestions ? > > ((( Well, I'd have to blow a trumpet for my favourite > composer here, someone truly remarkable, but a very > different kettle of fish to Ligeti, and that's Morton > Feldman (d.1987). Thanks Fergus, I was aware of Feldman and have heard a few pieces and will take up your suggestions but is there anyone young and up-and-coming (I suppose in classical terms that means under 40 !) who is doing anything as distinctive as Ives, Ligeti or Feldman ? Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 11:59:11 +0100 (BST) From: PAUL RABJOHN Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 / hifi sound not yet got the chance to sit down and crank up the volume on the new boxset versions. saving this for an appropriate moment..... but one set of remasters that really sound superb are the banshees ones , the scream sounds fabulous. sadly they seem to have backed out of the idea of doing them all as double cd's (cure style) like the scream one , the rest are just digipacks with a few bonus tracks. these are only #6 in Fopp however , which is a great deal. p tony clough wrote: Hi, Picking up a few strands... Thanks for all the illumination regarding Ligeti/Kubrick. > Date: Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:23:34 +0100 > From: "Ian B" > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire and Tristram Shandy > Before I go back to the football, are there any opinions as to whether the > recent reissues are significantly enhanced listening experiences over and > above other issues. I'll pose the same question as reagrds the Eno/Byrne > recent reissue As I can't presently afford to buy the Wire box set I'm consoling myself with the thought that very few of the remastered efforts I've bought in recent times have been greatly improved. Where stuff was made available on CD in the early days of their manufacture there are definite improvements in definition and detail but the difference between something mastered now and in the last few years seems negligible to my ears. To be fair, living in a flat I listen at relatively low volume and on less than state- of- the- art equipment. > Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2006 00:11:11 +0100 (BST) > From: Fergus Kelly > Subject: [idealcopy] Symphonic in persuasion > > Tony said: > > At the risk of stretching a point beyond credibility I > > think Ligeti stood > in relation to classical music in much the same way > that Wire stand to > pop/rock - the jokers in the pack, insiders and > outsiders at the same time, > simultaneously ironic and earnest. > > ((( Interesting you should make that comparison as it > was Colin who said, in Kevin's book, when referring to > the nature of Mike Thorne's listening habits, "He > could listen to Ligeti or X-Ray Spex." Mr Thorne just goes up and up in my estimation. My favourite classical composer remains Charles Ives and I noticed on Thorne's web page he has been involved with a realisation of Ive's "Universe Symphony". I say realisation as it was his last work and was left only in sketch form. I think there are now three realisations in existence - another one for the wants list. > > I still half-try to keep up with developments in as > many areas of music as > possible and I've dipped into contemporary classical > music a couple of > times in the last few years but I haven't found > anything truly remarkable > since Ligeti. Anyone got any suggestions ? > > ((( Well, I'd have to blow a trumpet for my favourite > composer here, someone truly remarkable, but a very > different kettle of fish to Ligeti, and that's Morton > Feldman (d.1987). Thanks Fergus, I was aware of Feldman and have heard a few pieces and will take up your suggestions but is there anyone young and up-and-coming (I suppose in classical terms that means under 40 !) who is doing anything as distinctive as Ives, Ligeti or Feldman ? Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 12:48:37 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] LATER > I'm very definitely on the anti-Editors side of the fence. Such a blatant > Interpol rip-off, right down to the guitar sounds. I don't think they ripped off Interpol any more than Interpol ripped off Joy Division in the first place. They're not gonna change the world, and the may well end up being a band I hate in years to come, but their debut album is a good pop record. It's not gonna change the world, but they know their way around a tune. And, as you know pop pickers, I like that ; ) >But without the element of > surprise, or the skewed otherness that made Interpol so engaging in 2001. > (which Interpol themselves seem to have lost on their much more straightforward > 2nd album. I pefer the second. It's more fully realised IMO - i.e. it sounds more like Interpol than Joy Division. Particularly like Next Exit with its Funereal beat, mournful deep vocals and chiming guitars. * >I suspect these bands get put under a lot of pressure to deliver > anthemic singles by their dimwitted record companies). Same could be said for The Yeah Yeah Yeahs. Gold Lion sounded good live, but they seem to have lost something along the way. > The Editors are bandwagon-jumpers of the highest degree. Wonder what they > looked/sounded like in 2001? (and I'm sure they're old enough to have been > around then...) Who gives a fuck, Mark. They'd probably have been 16 or something then. I've got enough embarassing photos of me when I was 16 to start worrying about anyone else!! ; ) > Oh hell, Razorlight have to be the very worst* of the current crop. Yeah. I thought that early Rip It Up single was really quite enjoyable, but since then...well lets just say I'm really not interested in hearing stuff that sounds like Bob Geldof singing sub-Springsteen stuff!! > naked ambition of that twat of a singer, coupled with the most slender talent, > plagiarised material and slappable personality. Have you heard this guy talk? What a pompous arse! He seems to live and breath some redundant rock shite life, thinking that he's the latest in a long line of people like Dylan, Hendrix, Van Morrison, Springsteen, when truth of the matter is that at their best Razorlight might just be able to come up with something good enough for the final Boomtown Rats LP. >Truly horrible group, a million > times worse than Keane (who I can't abide either but recognise they have a > gift for a hummable tune and at least sound distinctive). The most amazing thing about Keane for me is how someone as slim as the lead singer could have such a fat face. It really is quite remarkable ; ) Keith *can't think why I like it really! ; )> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:23:07 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 / hifi sound >>not yet got the chance to sit down and crank up the volume on the new boxset versions. saving this for an appropriate moment.....<< Same here - not done a direct comparison with the previous "remasters" - or indeed the vinyl... >> but one set of remasters that really sound superb are the banshees ones , the scream sounds fabulous. sadly they seem to have backed out of the idea of doing them all as double cd's (cure style) like the scream one , the rest are just digipacks with a few bonus tracks. these are only #6 in Fopp however , which is a great deal.<< The Cure remasters are equally good - especialy 17 Seconds, which always had ropey sound on CD. Remasters are much more detailed. Just a shame that the record companies couldn't have taken this much care in the first place. I've an increasing number of "thrice-bought" albums - vinyl, crap 90s CD reissue, nice new remaster.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 13:57:39 +0100 From: tony clough Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 / hifi sound > Just a shame that the record companies couldn't have taken this much care > in the first place. I've an increasing number of "thrice-bought" albums - > vinyl, crap 90s CD reissue, nice new remaster.... > > Mark > This is it - With Pere Ubu's "Modern Dance" I have the original UK vinyl, the original US vinyl, the original ltd CD, the current CD and the whole album as part of a CD box set. I did force myself to pass on an Italian vinyl reissue. Ubu have also embarked on "director's cut" editions of the later albums with alternative versions/remixes. I haven't bothered with these yet. The other thing is the bonus tracks or no bonus tracks ploy. What of the Wire singles that were removed from the current round of issues thus rendering the collection not -definitive. These "bonus tracks" were not the dubious offerings sometimes wisely left in the can at the time that get added to some albums. Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 08:54:30 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] LATER >> I'm very definitely on the anti-Editors side of the fence. Such a blatant > Interpol rip-off, right down to the guitar sounds. I don't think they ripped off Interpol any more than Interpol ripped off Joy Division in the first place.<< OK, the singer tries to sound like Ian Cutis, but do you really hear Joy Division in the sound of the band? Chameleons meets Galaxie 500, in a post-Strokes kind of way..... it's all proper chords and stuff, not the JD flipped bass/guitar thing, with te guitar playing the melody and the guitar playing the textures. >>They're not gonna change the world, and the may well end up being a band I hate in years to come, but their debut album is a good pop record. It's not gonna change the world, but they know their way around a tune. And, as you know pop pickers, I like that ; )<< There's no answer to that! >>I pefer the second. It's more fully realised IMO - i.e. it sounds more like Interpol than Joy Division. Particularly like Next Exit with its Funereal beat, mournful deep vocals and chiming guitars. *<< There's good stuff on it, for sure. It's just too predictable with the big U2 choruses... >>I suspect these bands get put under a lot of pressure to deliver > anthemic singles by their dimwitted record companies). Same could be said for The Yeah Yeah Yeahs. Gold Lion sounded good live, but they seem to have lost something along the way.<< Agreed. That new single is nothing to get excited about. Always found thim a tad over-hyped, though you can see why Wendy appeals. > The Editors are bandwagon-jumpers of the highest degree. Wonder what they > looked/sounded like in 2001? (and I'm sure they're old enough to have been > around then...) Who gives a fuck, Mark. They'd probably have been 16 or something then. I've got enough embarassing photos of me when I was 16 to start worrying about anyone else!! ; )<< I think they're more likely to have been about 23 then actually ;-) Just find it highly amusing when these "next big thing" bands turn out to have been peddling some other stylistically ludicrous act for years before hopping on the bandwagon. Like the tosser out of the Bravery with his white rasta dreads and his ska band. Next minute he's Pete fucking Murphy. >> Oh hell, Razorlight have to be the very worst* of the current crop. Yeah. I thought that early Rip It Up single was really quite enjoyable, but since then...well lets just say I'm really not interested in hearing stuff that sounds like Bob Geldof singing sub-Springsteen stuff!! > naked ambition of that twat of a singer, coupled with the most slender talent, > plagiarised material and slappable personality. Have you heard this guy talk? What a pompous arse! He seems to live and breath some redundant rock shite life, thinking that he's the latest in a long line of people like Dylan, Hendrix, Van Morrison, Springsteen, when truth of the matter is that at their best Razorlight might just be able to come up with something good enough for the final Boomtown Rats LP.<< Oh yes! Razorlight = Boomtown Rats. Why didn't I spot that!?! Genius. At the time you didn't realise how much of a Broooce influence there was on "Sir" Bob (Springsteen filter was already set to 100%). Now it makes the BRs look even dafter than they did. >>e most amazing thing about Keane for me is how someone as slim as the lead singer could have such a fat face. It really is quite remarkable ; )<< The bass player in Franz Ferdinand is another fat-faced-but-otherwise-slim bloke. Any others? I suppose Bob from Razorlight is very slender (in the talent department) but has an extremely big head! ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:06:21 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 / hifi sound >>This is it - With Pere Ubu's "Modern Dance" I have the original UK vinyl, the original US vinyl, the original ltd CD, the current CD and the whole album as part of a CD box set. I did force myself to pass on an Italian vinyl reissue. Ubu have also embarked on "director's cut" editions of the later albums with alternative versions/remixes. I haven't bothered with these yet.<< I think I've got four "Modern Dances", and the same number of "Marquee Moons" and "Velvet Underground and Nicos". >>The other thing is the bonus tracks or no bonus tracks ploy. What of the Wire singles that were removed from the current round of issues thus rendering the collection not -definitive. These "bonus tracks" were not the dubious offerings sometimes wisely left in the can at the time that get added to some albums.<< I can live without non-album single tracks on CD reissues. Quite like having the original "artisitic statement" as-is, even without the vinyl side break.... Again the Cure reissues are the gold standard here - the albums are untouched on CD1, with a full CD of bonus tracks on CD2. I'm sure a Wire singles comp will come eventually. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 14:34:21 +0100 From: tony clough Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 / hifi sound - --On 19 June 2006 09:06 -0400 MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > I think I've got four "Modern Dances", and the same number of "Marquee > Moons" and "Velvet Underground and Nicos". Any advance on my 5 versions of Modern Dance or any other album ? (In the case of Modern Dance, having multiple copies is particularly futile, remastering quality aside, as they have no extra tracks.) > I can live without non-album single tracks on CD reissues. Quite like > having the original "artisitic statement" as-is, even without the vinyl > side break.... Again the Cure reissues are the gold standard here - the > albums are untouched on CD1, with a full CD of bonus tracks on CD2. On balance I think you're right. Despite repeatedly getting over-excited at the various additions to favourite albums when they get the remastering treatment I'm struggling to think of anything (singles aside) that is as good as the stuff the artist was wise enough to include originally. Some of it is worth a listen and I guess the second disc is the best compromise. T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 09:50:41 -0500 From: "David McKenzie" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 On 6/19/06, tony clough wrote: ...is there anyone young and up-and-coming (I suppose in classical terms that means under 40 !) who is doing anything as distinctive as Ives, Ligeti or Feldman ? Which begs the question? How would one know? It's not like Feldman, Ives or Ligetti had a whole lot of press in their day. That said, I would nominate Steve Roden and Carl Stone as two contemporaries worthy of attention. - -- http://ReliableSoundProducts.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2006 16:11:20 +0100 From: tony clough Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V9 #161 OT; Ives, Ligeti,.. - --On 19 June 2006 09:50 -0500 David McKenzie wrote: > On 6/19/06, tony clough wrote: > ...is there anyone young and up-and-coming (I suppose in classical terms > that means under 40 !) who is doing anything as distinctive as Ives, > Ligeti or Feldman ? > > > Which begs the question? > How would one know? > It's not like Feldman, Ives or Ligetti had a whole lot of press in their > day. > > That said, I would nominate Steve Roden and Carl Stone as two > contemporaries worthy of attention. > I partly agree. A hardcore "maverick" could easily be languishing (or possible reveling) in obscurity but these days there are just so many more outlets for non-mainstream stuff. When I first got actively involved with "experimental music" about 30 years ago you really had to hunt stuff down. Just over 20 years ago I had collected about 30 Ives albums in around three years. The best way to expand my collection was to book a holiday in the US. One day in New York and I'd doubled my collection. Now a quick trawl of the internet would do the same and more. I can never make my mind up whether its a blessing or curse that I can go into Rough Trade and read The Wire where its all laid out for me but I'm denied the thrill of discovery and the chase. Cheers for the suggestions. Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:19:23 +0100 From: Tim Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire and Tristram Shandy Ian B wrote: > The waiting's over. The tenuous link is to Dome, and is the only usage I've > ever read of the word YCLEPT outside of the album title (maybe this suggests > I'm not particularly well read). > > "It is ten to one (at Arthur's) whether you have ever read the literary > histories of past ages; - if you have - what terrible battles, 'yclept > logomachies, have they occassioned and perpetuated with so much gall and > ink-shed,--- that a good natured man cannot read the accounts of them > without tears in his eyes." I've not read the book but I'm awating the Michael Winterbottom/Steve Coogan film of it on DVD. Anyone seen it? Does Coogan utter the word Yclept? > > Before I go back to the football, are there any opinions as to whether the > recent reissues are significantly enhanced listening experiences over and > above other issues. I'll pose the same question as reagrds the Eno/Byrne > recent reissue They sound exactly the same to me (apart from the fact that they don't skip and stutter like my knackered old EMI copies). However, I enjoyed the experience of listening to them very closely to hear the difference...I heard none but it does no harm to listen to a very familiar record intently. The Roxy gigs are very good, and hilarious especially when EGL says "oh fuck off you little shit" to the annoying heckler! The US gig is bootleg quality but worth hearing. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V9 #162 *******************************