From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V9 #133 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, May 19 2006 Volume 09 : Number 133 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] popmatters [Wireviews ] RE: [idealcopy] popmatters/new box ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 04:11:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] popmatters > What a load of pretensious bollocks. And a stark contrast to the glowing review on the often highly critical Pitchfork website. The problem I have with the Popmatters 'essay' is that it's sometimes inaccurate bollocks -- or at least misinformed. He glosses over the sampling of TGR (mentioning it once in parentheses), but it's the core complaint from Wire when it comes to Connection... 'Elastica's "Connection" may be a direct steal from Wire's "Three Girl Rhumba" -- just as both "Line Up" and Blur's "Girls and Boys" owe a little something to "I Am The Fly"' No, not 'just as': Connection *samples* Three Girl Rhumba, whereas the others are just influenced by the older song. When Connection goes on to make a shed-load of cash, I'm hardly surprised Wire felt narked, seeing as it was a direct steal. And only the pop geeks bothered to check the source -- most thought Elastica had created a great song, when they'd in fact stolen it. > The members of Wire... were... going nowhere in life Character assassination now, too? Presumably, Graham Lewis's fashion design output (which, according to Kevin's book, was successful) was 'going nowhere in life', then? And if he's referring primarily to music, it's hardly like most bands at the time had aspirations of wealth, fame and fortune -- it was all about people who *didn't* know how to do this going ahead and doing it anyway; ignoring the massive advance Wire made over those first few years -- or dismissing it -- is mind-boggling. As someone on this list said, talk about missing the point... > Certainly, parts of Pink Flag make it very > difficult to swallow the band's professed lack > of proficiency. After all, musicians don't improve when they practice, do they? And... oh, what's the point? As Mark said: "Interesting to see someone try and shoot Wire down -- and just how difficult they are to shoot down." > If they're not going to include the extra tracks > on the albums, then they should surely have > included them on a bonus disc. I'd certainly > be a *bit* more willing to spend 50 quid on > the boxset then This appears to be the main bugbear of the Popmatters chap. I questioned Colin about the lack of extra 'tracks', suggesting that it was a bit strange that they'd been ditched entirely. (I was expecting them to appear on a bonus disk.) Apparently, this isn't Wire or Colin dismissing them -- it's largely down to rights reasons, and I didn't ask him to elaborate further. Craig - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://www.wireviews.com News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://www.vmuonline.com SVA: http://www.snubcommunications.com - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 12:51:04 +0100 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] popmatters/new box >>>>Craig wrote: I questioned Colin about the lack of extra 'tracks', suggesting that it was a bit strange that they'd been ditched entirely. (I was expecting them to appear on a bonus disk.) Apparently, this isn't Wire or Colin dismissing them -- it's largely down to rights reasons, and I didn't ask him to elaborate further.<<<<< I think the band has pulled a blinder in being able to issue the original albums on Pink Flag America when they have been remastered in the UK and are ordered through and sent out from a UK-based company... EMI-Harvest have presumably got tighter reins on the singles, despite the fact that the albums must have generated more income over the years than the singles ever did. Perhaps EMI-Harvest will have the wit to put all the singles out on a remastered compilation disc at some point. For now I'm hanging onto my '94 reissue copies of PF/CM for the bonus tracks but I never was that keen on the bonus EP with 154. Full marks for the sound quality, by the way. I started with CM yesterday before playing PF and then 154. I had become rather jaded by 154 after many plays of the original vinyl and have only played the '94 CD once or twice so I was astonished to be blown away by the cauldron of sound it now is. All that tension we've read about during the making of the record seems to be there and, while it doesn't make a comfortable listen, it doesn't seem to do it any harm at this point in its history. I was gripped from beginning to end. Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.clearswift.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 13:08:44 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V9 #132 >Date: Wed, 17 May 2006 18:54:21 +0100 >From: "Keith A" >Subject: [idealcopy] Fw: Elastica v Wire > >And Elastica were much better live. > >Cheers > >Roger > Having seen both Wire and Elastica in concert (Wire @ Echo Lounge, Atlanta, 2002, Elastica @ The Roxy, Atlanta, 1995), I must say that Wire is the better live act. I did, however, have a very good time at the Elastica show and consider Justine Frischmann to be the sexiest lead vocalist that I've ever seen live...Elastica were certainly a sexier band. Not better musically, though. Elastica did soundly upstage the headlining band, Soul Asylum, of course. I'll say that much. Jason Now Playing: Dinosaur Jr - Green Mind (2006 reissue w/ bonus tracks)..........aside: If I live to be 300 years old, I'll never ever understand why Nirvana became more famous than Dinosaur Jr. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:55:23 +0800 From: "First Last" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Boxsets arriving! S'cuse me make that 16 years on the memorial frenzy ;) Tim On 5/18/06, First Last wrote: > "the ever-delayed This Heat and Portion Control sets are impending as well..." > Yes, i ordered This Heat in November! & the Portion Control is yet to > be released? > Anyway still awaiting my Box set....could be a while i reckon getting to Oz! > > Tim > > NP Joy Division 17 yr (Would you believe it!?) memorial frenzy. > PIL - Well, Lydon really DVD, worth it for the earlier promos (I guess > the first x2/3) & monitor mixes > > On 5/17/06, Doug Wittner wrote: > > nice! hopefully the shipping across the ocean will be relatively > > quick as well, i'm impatiently awaiting mine...have been holding off > > purchasing the individual remasters, though i gaze longingly at them > > every time i go into the local record sto. > > > > this is turning out to be a banner f*cking year for boxsets, the > > ever-delayed This Heat and Portion Control sets are impending as > > well... > > > > anyone else received their Wire box yet? > > > > On 5/16/06, Andrew Walkingshaw wrote: > > > My boxset just turned up. Very, very nice packaging indeed. > > > > > > (As for the music, I'm about half way through the first Roxy set; it's > > > never less than interesting, but I can hear why Mary Is A Dyke never made > > > it onto the studio albums...) > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.lexical.org.uk/ | http://covertmusic.com/ | work: adw27@cam.ac.uk > > > "don't believe a word I say - not that you would anyway, > > > 'cause I may be insincere, but it's all downhill from here..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 11:19:07 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Boxsets arriving! S'cuse me make that 16 years on the memorial frenzy ;) Er, 26! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 08:32:16 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V9 #132 > Now Playing: Dinosaur Jr - Green Mind (2006 reissue w/ bonus > tracks)..........aside: If I live to be 300 years old, I'll never ever > understand why Nirvana became more famous than Dinosaur Jr. > That's actually easy for me to understand. Remove the music from the equation for a second. Kurt Cobain had a love/hate relationship with stardom. He really wanted to be a big star - you can see the evidence of this if you read thru his journals - but he was repulsed by it at the same time. Now look at J. Mascis - did he ever have the naked ambition to be super rich and famous? Not from my admittedly limited perspective - it seemed to me like he wanted to be a musician that played some great tunes, earned a good living, played some killer shows, and could take time off to go skiing. I think it all just boils down to ambition - that, and Smells Like Teen Spirit hitting the zeitgeist of the times perfectly. ^_^ Cheers, Paul P.S. I wrote this without drinking my morning coffee yet. If it doesn't make any sense - well, there you go! ^_^ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 22:53:24 +0800 From: "First Last" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Boxsets arriving! "the ever-delayed This Heat and Portion Control sets are impending as well..." Yes, i ordered This Heat in November! & the Portion Control is yet to be released? Anyway still awaiting my Box set....could be a while i reckon getting to Oz! Tim NP Joy Division 17 yr (Would you believe it!?) memorial frenzy. PIL - Well, Lydon really DVD, worth it for the earlier promos (I guess the first x2/3) & monitor mixes On 5/17/06, Doug Wittner wrote: > nice! hopefully the shipping across the ocean will be relatively > quick as well, i'm impatiently awaiting mine...have been holding off > purchasing the individual remasters, though i gaze longingly at them > every time i go into the local record sto. > > this is turning out to be a banner f*cking year for boxsets, the > ever-delayed This Heat and Portion Control sets are impending as > well... > > anyone else received their Wire box yet? > > On 5/16/06, Andrew Walkingshaw wrote: > > My boxset just turned up. Very, very nice packaging indeed. > > > > (As for the music, I'm about half way through the first Roxy set; it's > > never less than interesting, but I can hear why Mary Is A Dyke never made > > it onto the studio albums...) > > > > Andrew > > > > -- > > http://www.lexical.org.uk/ | http://covertmusic.com/ | work: adw27@cam.ac.uk > > "don't believe a word I say - not that you would anyway, > > 'cause I may be insincere, but it's all downhill from here..." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 00:31:47 +0800 From: "First Last" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Boxsets arriving! I'll get my coat.... I need more drugs!!!! Tim On 5/18/06, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > > > > S'cuse me make that 16 years on the memorial frenzy ;) > > Er, 26! > > Mark > > > S'cuse me make that 16 years on the memorial frenzy ;) > > Er, 26! > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 10:28:07 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Nirvana vs Dinosaur Jr. (was Re: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V9 #132) (posting back to the ideal copy list for further discussion - hope you don't mind, giluz. ^_^) > Cobain was trapped by his success and the realisation that the > music he was doing was not alternative but mainstream. And > dinosaur jr. were simply a better band, which is the main reason > why they weren't as successful. Hmmmm. I don't quite agree with this. Cobain *wanted* that success. He saw it as an escape mechanism from the hell of growing up in Aberdeen, WA as a sensitive child with middle class, divorced parents. (I've been to Aberdeen - it's pretty stultifying, to put it mildly. ^_^) Success became an obsession with him - read thru the journals, or Charles Cross' biography "Heavier Than Heaven" and you'll see what I'm getting at. He was a canny self-promoter and self-aggrandizer. For example, the song "Something In The Way" is not real - according to all the foster parents, he never lived underneath a bridge. After a while though, in interviews, he started claiming he had. And that became a mythological point with his fans - it spoke to a lot of us directly. When he finally got that success he was looking for, he found that it didn't solve his problems at all, and added a slew of new ones. That's not exactly trapped - it's more like there were deep problems and the "answer" just didn't work. As far as alternative vs. mainstream - Nirvana had plenty of alternative songs - even late in the game. They just never got the obsessive radio airplay. Check out weird b-sides like "Oh The Guilt", "Crumudgeon", "MV" and "Gallons Of Rubbing Alcohol Flow Thru The Strip". There's no way in my mind those could be considered mainstream. ^_^ As for who's better? Hmmm - hard to say. Intellectually, I appreciate Dinosaur Jr. quite a bit, but, to be honest, I could never make it thru a whole album without having my attention wander. It was usually one or two songs per album that stuck in my head like super glue. (I really dig the Rhino records Dinosaur Jr. compilation, BTW). On the other hand, as a Seattle-ite, Nirvana changed my life, changed the radio stations I listened to, got me started in a band, and influenced my way of thinking beyond belief. The fact that Nevermind was a good record was just icing to what they'd done. And - I still think In Utero is underrated. That's my favorite Nirvana album, hands down. I do feel that Nirvana never made the great record they had in them. "You Know You're Right", although obviously unfinished, hints at what it might have sounded like. And, I really would have loved to hear what they would have done with "Do Re Mi" - that's one of the last songs Kurt wrote. (You can hear it in the Nirvana outtakes box set). OK - I'm done now- I'll step off the Nirvana fan podium. Back to your normal discussions. ^_^ Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 14:13:00 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: Nirvana vs Dinosaur Jr. (was Re: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V9 #132) >> Cobain was trapped by his success and the realisation that the > music he was doing was not alternative but mainstream. And > dinosaur jr. were simply a better band, which is the main reason > why they weren't as successful.<< Surely it's largely to do with zeitgeist, and timing? When DJr broke (around 87) there was little or no mainstream route to market for that kind of music - see also Husker Du, Sonic Youth and even the Pixies, all of whom gained considerable critical acclaim in the UK music press, but didn't excatly shift vast numbers of "units", radio-friendly or otherwise. Meanwhile in America it was all spandex poodle rock like Guns & Roses. By 91 the kids were bored with spandex poodle rock - and the grunge look couldn't be further from spandex poodle rock. So the Seattle thing became a "movement" of sorts. MTV/alt radio stations etc cottoned on and all it took was a band to put together the pieces of the jigsaw.... Nothing to do with bands being "better". More to do with timing, location, and being the specific band for a specific generation of "ver kids".... Now, with the benefit of hindsight, you can make your own judgement as to which band is the more durable. I'd say the two classic Nirvana albums outshine any of DJrs - though without them Nevermind might have never been. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 21:24:35 +0300 From: giluz Subject: Re: Nirvana vs Dinosaur Jr. (was Re: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V9 #132) I have to admit I was never that interested in Nirvana to listen to their b-sides or read anything about Cobain or that was written by him. The time when Smells Like Teen Spirit climbed the charts was a sort of a revelation for me, one of those critical moments when you realise that some seriously heavy paradigm shift is happening all around you. I was glad when Teen Spirit became no. 1 but a moment later I remember thinking "something certainly smells". It was the final successful step in the efforts of the music industry to co-opt the alternative/indie scene. Luckily enough, dance music was already there to replace it with new sounds and a completely new and revolutionary thoughts on how music should be made and heard. As to the music itself, it was not bad, but it never really excited me. That was the time when nothing new emerged from guitar music, My Bloody Valentine's Loveless being the last innovative guitar album made at that time for some years. According to your reply, you've read and listened to everything so you must know better than me about Cobain's private aspirations, so I guess you're probably right. btw I never much cared for dinosaur jr. either, I was just joking when I wrote that remark oh, and please, whenever you recieve an off-list reply from me, it's probably because I forgot to press 'reply all' so by all means, resend it to the list. cheers giluz On 5/18/06, Paul Pietromonaco wrote: > > (posting back to the ideal copy list for further discussion - hope you > don't > mind, giluz. ^_^) > > > Cobain was trapped by his success and the realisation that the > > music he was doing was not alternative but mainstream. And > > dinosaur jr. were simply a better band, which is the main reason > > why they weren't as successful. > > > Hmmmm. I don't quite agree with this. > > Cobain *wanted* that success. He saw it as an escape mechanism from the > hell of growing up in Aberdeen, WA as a sensitive child with middle class, > divorced parents. (I've been to Aberdeen - it's pretty stultifying, to > put > it mildly. ^_^) > > Success became an obsession with him - read thru the journals, or Charles > Cross' biography "Heavier Than Heaven" and you'll see what I'm getting at. > He was a canny self-promoter and self-aggrandizer. For example, the song > "Something In The Way" is not real - according to all the foster parents, > he > never lived underneath a bridge. After a while though, in interviews, he > started claiming he had. And that became a mythological point with his > fans - it spoke to a lot of us directly. > > When he finally got that success he was looking for, he found that it > didn't > solve his problems at all, and added a slew of new ones. That's not > exactly > trapped - it's more like there were deep problems and the "answer" just > didn't work. > > As far as alternative vs. mainstream - Nirvana had plenty of alternative > songs - even late in the game. They just never got the obsessive radio > airplay. Check out weird b-sides like "Oh The Guilt", "Crumudgeon", "MV" > and > "Gallons Of Rubbing Alcohol Flow Thru The Strip". There's no way in my > mind > those could be considered mainstream. ^_^ > > As for who's better? Hmmm - hard to say. > > Intellectually, I appreciate Dinosaur Jr. quite a bit, but, to be honest, > I > could never make it thru a whole album without having my attention wander. > It was usually one or two songs per album that stuck in my head like super > glue. (I really dig the Rhino records Dinosaur Jr. compilation, BTW). > > On the other hand, as a Seattle-ite, Nirvana changed my life, changed the > radio stations I listened to, got me started in a band, and influenced my > way of thinking beyond belief. The fact that Nevermind was a good record > was just icing to what they'd done. > > And - I still think In Utero is underrated. That's my favorite Nirvana > album, hands down. > > I do feel that Nirvana never made the great record they had in them. "You > Know You're Right", although obviously unfinished, hints at what it might > have sounded like. And, I really would have loved to hear what they would > have done with "Do Re Mi" - that's one of the last songs Kurt wrote. (You > can hear it in the Nirvana outtakes box set). > > OK - I'm done now- I'll step off the Nirvana fan podium. Back to your > normal discussions. ^_^ > > Cheers, > Paul > - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 15:03:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] O.T: Tom Verlaine............ http://www.npr.org/search.php?text=Tom+Verlaine Not all T.V stuff has been posted to the site, expected to be by 19:30 today....... A Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 May 2006 00:08:54 +0100 (BST) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Do ya think I'm sixty..? Jan said: Probably only insiders do know, but I guess no one from the list would like to ignore this one. This is all about 60th times celebrating his birthday on the 18th. Have a nice day Bruce ((( Indeed. Speaking of Bruce, I see an ad in The Wire for a solo set he's doing on the 28th of June, amongst other acts, in The Amersham Arms, London, presented by The Gluerooms underground music monthly. The Wire, in their own inimitable fashion, refer to Bruce as "Wire oddball Gilbert" http://www.gluerooms.com Fergus http://www.roomtemperature.org http://www.asullenrelapse.blogspot.com http://flickr.com/photos/55867717@N00/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 17:35:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] O.T: Capt. Pugwash myhts and legends.............. http://www.snopes.com/radiotv/tv/pugwash.htm Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 May 2006 19:19:03 -0700 From: "Doug Wittner" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Boxsets arriving! yeah, Portion Control date is now around May 29th, not sure what the hold up is, but i guess it's the same ol' song with pressing delays, etc. really looking forward to that one, though not sure about the 'remastered from vinyl' angle. we shall see. happy to receive my Wire box from posteverything today - it's a nice set overall, the remastered 'Chairs Missing' sounds great (the only one i've listened to so far), and the CBGB show is quite interesting...better quality than i expected, but as the liner notes indicate, was recorded for radio broadcast at the time, so... i'm a little disappointed in the packaging of the individual CD's, seems a little flimsy, but this is a minor gripe. the box looks and sounds great, i'm spending the evening checking it all out. bravo. On 5/18/06, First Last wrote: > "the ever-delayed This Heat and Portion Control sets are impending as well..." > Yes, i ordered This Heat in November! & the Portion Control is yet to > be released? > Anyway still awaiting my Box set....could be a while i reckon getting to Oz! > > Tim > > NP Joy Division 17 yr (Would you believe it!?) memorial frenzy. > PIL - Well, Lydon really DVD, worth it for the earlier promos (I guess > the first x2/3) & monitor mixes > > On 5/17/06, Doug Wittner wrote: > > nice! hopefully the shipping across the ocean will be relatively > > quick as well, i'm impatiently awaiting mine...have been holding off > > purchasing the individual remasters, though i gaze longingly at them > > every time i go into the local record sto. > > > > this is turning out to be a banner f*cking year for boxsets, the > > ever-delayed This Heat and Portion Control sets are impending as > > well... > > > > anyone else received their Wire box yet? > > > > On 5/16/06, Andrew Walkingshaw wrote: > > > My boxset just turned up. Very, very nice packaging indeed. > > > > > > (As for the music, I'm about half way through the first Roxy set; it's > > > never less than interesting, but I can hear why Mary Is A Dyke never made > > > it onto the studio albums...) > > > > > > Andrew > > > > > > -- > > > http://www.lexical.org.uk/ | http://covertmusic.com/ | work: adw27@cam.ac.uk > > > "don't believe a word I say - not that you would anyway, > > > 'cause I may be insincere, but it's all downhill from here..." ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V9 #133 *******************************