From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V9 #13 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, January 14 2006 Volume 09 : Number 013 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] Keith A wrote.......... ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" ] Re: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... [Ari Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Keith A wrote.......... Adventure hasn't aged tooooo well IMHO - though I do love Foxhole and still haven't parted with my red vinyl LP of same. B >>Going off on a tangent, I recently bought the expanded Marquee Moon - more for the extra tracks than any re-mastering to be honest, but it sounds fantastic. Some great alternative versions too - and a prev unreleased instrumental that sounds nothing like expected.<< Ari wrote: Shame on you for waiting so long,if you haven't already got them you MUST get the remastered Adventure and 'live at the Old Waldorf, San Fran '78, if it's no longer available drop me a line... A ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.clearswift.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 08:08:07 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Keith A wrote.......... >>Adventure hasn't aged tooooo well IMHO - though I do love Foxhole and still haven't parted with my red vinyl LP of same. << Totally disagree - if anything Foxhole now sounds one of the weaker tracks. Adventure gets bad press only because it's forever in the shadow of Marqueee Moon. If Television had only ever made Adventure it'd be hailed as an all-time classic.... Heck, it's got Glory on it. And Days! And Ain't that Nothing! And The Dream's Dream!! >>Going off on a tangent, I recently bought the expanded Marquee Moon - more for the extra tracks than any re-mastering to be honest, but it sounds fantastic. Some great alternative versions too - and a prev unreleased instrumental that sounds nothing like expected.<< The alternative takes are brilliant - proof that even then Verlaine improvised every solo - the "definitive" takes were just the ones he played on the final take.... Though the issue of "the fade" on the title track still grates. I love the original vinyl fade, and hate the big rawk ending - but that's the way Tommy wants it :-( >>Ari wrote: Shame on you for waiting so long,if you haven't already got them you MUST get the remastered Adventure and 'live at the Old Waldorf, San Fran '78, if it's no longer available drop me a line... A<< Very limited and certainly out of print - but quite possibly my favourite live album, ever. (it's a radio broadcast, and the quality is superb) Deserved a wider reissue. Lobby Rhino for a repress! And the better news is.... there's a new album this year, so maintining the once-every-14-years strike rate since 1978. They've been playing quite a few new songs during more recent gigs which sounded excellent too.... Also apparently some new Tom solo stuff as well - a "songs" album and an instrumental one... Then they start work on the fifth Television album, pencilled in for 2020. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:26:48 -0800 (PST) From: aktivitaet@fivetenfifteen.com Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire Remasters) > Thanks for the detailed explanation. > > People will switch to downloads in the face of such 'safeguards'. > > While these may too have copy-control built in you can bet your bottom > dollar that there will be people who will engineer ways around this.... > Bruno It's true enough, yes. Though from that there is a whole other debate about formats for music consumption and their appeal. Research publicised this week put forward the theory that people consuming music via downloads don't place the same value on it: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/11/music_appreciation_ipod/ I can see where they are coming from with that kind of argument. From my own perspective, as a child of the Factory/4AD era where it was not only music that was important but packaging and attitude in equal measures, I can't see myself ever getting excited about downloading music - its just not much of an event. But I'm an old duffer by now and not kidding myself that record cos will worry; I'm probably the digital equivalent of someone bitching about these new fangled 45s and clutching my 78s for dear life ;-) Ian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:56:48 -0000 From: "John Goddard" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire Remasters) Talking of the Era you mention and its equivalent, those fangled new 45's etc..... I do download music and i download for a specific purpose, that purpose being.......... Try before i /you buy Its the equivalent of going in to one of those Yesteryear record booths If the music is crap it gets deleted , if the musics good, it gets deleted, then i go out and make my purchases. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire Remasters) > > Thanks for the detailed explanation. > > > > People will switch to downloads in the face of such 'safeguards'. > > > > While these may too have copy-control built in you can bet your bottom > > dollar that there will be people who will engineer ways around this.... > > > Bruno > > > It's true enough, yes. Though from that there is a whole other debate > about formats for music consumption and their appeal. Research publicised > this week put forward the theory that people consuming music via downloads > don't place the same value on it: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/11/music_appreciation_ipod/ > > I can see where they are coming from with that kind of argument. From my > own perspective, as a child of the Factory/4AD era where it was not only > music that was important but packaging and attitude in equal measures, I > can't see myself ever getting excited about downloading music - its just > not much of an event. But I'm an old duffer by now and not kidding myself > that record cos will worry; I'm probably the digital equivalent of someone > bitching about these new fangled 45s and clutching my 78s for dear life > ;-) > > Ian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:49:16 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: [idealcopy] Ken Burns' Jazz DVDs My dad's just bought a DVD player so, whoopee, I can now buy him DVDs for presents. An obvious choice is the Jazz series by Ken Burns - but would you believe it, the European version is only 12 hours long compared to the full 18-19 hours for sale in the US. Of course he's bought a Region 2 player so I can't even order the version from the States. Why on earth they give a series like this region encoding I can't imagine. It's totally self-defeating. I'm not going to buy him a heavily edited version of the 'real thing', neither am I going to buy him something he can only view on his iMac... http://tinyurl.com/eyomm ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.clearswift.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 09:51:01 -0600 From: David McKenzie Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire Remasters) So, there are, like, two of us that follow this scenareo.... On 1/13/06, John Goddard wrote: > > Talking of the Era you mention and its equivalent, those fangled new 45's > etc..... > > I do download music and i download for a specific purpose, that purpose > being.......... > > Try before i /you buy > > Its the equivalent of going in to one of those Yesteryear record booths > > If the music is crap it gets deleted , if the musics good, it gets > deleted, > then i go out and make my purchases. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Friday, January 13, 2006 2:26 PM > Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire > Remasters) > > > > > Thanks for the detailed explanation. > > > > > > People will switch to downloads in the face of such 'safeguards'. > > > > > > While these may too have copy-control built in you can bet your bottom > > > dollar that there will be people who will engineer ways around > this.... > > > > > Bruno > > > > > > It's true enough, yes. Though from that there is a whole other debate > > about formats for music consumption and their appeal. Research > publicised > > this week put forward the theory that people consuming music via > downloads > > don't place the same value on it: > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/01/11/music_appreciation_ipod/ > > > > I can see where they are coming from with that kind of argument. From my > > own perspective, as a child of the Factory/4AD era where it was not only > > music that was important but packaging and attitude in equal measures, I > > can't see myself ever getting excited about downloading music - its just > > not much of an event. But I'm an old duffer by now and not kidding > myself > > that record cos will worry; I'm probably the digital equivalent of > someone > > bitching about these new fangled 45s and clutching my 78s for dear life > > ;-) > > > > Ian ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:50:32 +0000 From: dpbailey@att.net Subject: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... speaking of technical disc-related stuff, has the following come up here before? > > Do Burned CDs Have a Short Life Span? > > > > Optical discs may not be your best bet for storing > > digital media long term, expert says. > > > > John Blau, IDG News Service > > Tuesday, January 10, 2006 > > Opinions vary on how to preserve data on digital > > storage media, such as optical CDs and DVDs. Kurt > > Gerecke, a physicist and storage expert at IBM > > Deutschland, has his own view: If you want to avoid > > having to burn new CDs every few years, use magnetic > > tapes to store all your pictures, videos and songs > > for a lifetime. > > > > > > > > > "Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a > > relatively short life span of between two to five > > years, depending on the quality of the CD," Gerecke > > says. "There are a few things you can do to extend > > the life of a burned CD, like keeping the disc in a > > cool, dark space, but not a whole lot more." > > > > The problem is material degradation. Optical discs > > commonly used for burning, such as CD-R and CD-RW, > > have a recording surface consisting of a layer of > > dye that can be modified by heat to store data. The > > degradation process can result in the data > > "shifting" on the surface and thus becoming > > unreadable to the laser beam. > > > > "Many of the cheap burnable CDs available at > > discount stores have a life span of around two > > years," Gerecke says. "Some of the better-quality > > discs offer a longer life span, of a maximum of five > > years." > > > > Distinguishing high-quality burnable CDs from > > low-quality discs is difficult, he says, because few > > vendors use life span as a selling point. > > > > > > Similar Limitations > > Hard-drive disks also have their limitations, > > according to Gerecke. The problem with hard drives, > > he says, is not so much the disk itself as it is the > > disk bearing, which has a positioning function > > similar to a ball bearing. "If the hard drive uses > > an inexpensive disk bearing, that bearing will wear > > out faster than a more expensive one," he says. His > > recommendation: a hard-drive disk with 7200 > > revolutions per minute. > > > > To overcome the preservation limitations of burnable > > CDs, Gerecke suggests using magnetic tapes, which, > > he claims, can have a life span of 30 years to 100 > > years, depending on their quality. "Even if magnetic > > tapes are also subject to degradation, they're still > > the superior storage media," he says. > > > > But he's quick to point out that no storage medium > > lasts forever and, consequently, consumers and > > business alike need to have a migration plan to new > > storage technologies. > > > > "Companies, in particular, need to be constantly > > looking at new storage technologies and have an > > archiving strategy that allows them to automatically > > migrate to new technologies," he says. "Otherwise, > > they're going to wind up in a dead-end. And for > > those sitting on terabytes of crucial data, that > > could be a colossal problem." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:55:12 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: [idealcopy] Blu-ray v HD-DVD Those not interested in technology can ignore this article but I thought the closing line of the main story would cheer up those who can't stand Sony! >>>...we can ignore the fight - and stick with our DVDs. That won't hurt Bill Gates. But it will hurt Sony.<<< http://www.guardian.co.uk/microsoft/Story/0,,1683965,00.html Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.clearswift.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 17:20:22 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... Various info for this online Try one of my favourites... http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=40477 - -----Original Message----- From: dpbailey@att.net [mailto:dpbailey@att.net] Sent: 13 January 2006 16:51 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... speaking of technical disc-related stuff, has the following come up here before? > > Do Burned CDs Have a Short Life Span? > > > > Optical discs may not be your best bet for storing > > digital media long term, expert says. > > > > John Blau, IDG News Service > > Tuesday, January 10, 2006 > > Opinions vary on how to preserve data on digital > > storage media, such as optical CDs and DVDs. Kurt > > Gerecke, a physicist and storage expert at IBM > > Deutschland, has his own view: If you want to avoid > > having to burn new CDs every few years, use magnetic > > tapes to store all your pictures, videos and songs > > for a lifetime. > > > > > > > > > "Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a > > relatively short life span of between two to five > > years, depending on the quality of the CD," Gerecke > > says. "There are a few things you can do to extend > > the life of a burned CD, like keeping the disc in a > > cool, dark space, but not a whole lot more." > > > > The problem is material degradation. Optical discs > > commonly used for burning, such as CD-R and CD-RW, > > have a recording surface consisting of a layer of > > dye that can be modified by heat to store data. The > > degradation process can result in the data > > "shifting" on the surface and thus becoming > > unreadable to the laser beam. > > > > "Many of the cheap burnable CDs available at > > discount stores have a life span of around two > > years," Gerecke says. "Some of the better-quality > > discs offer a longer life span, of a maximum of five > > years." > > > > Distinguishing high-quality burnable CDs from > > low-quality discs is difficult, he says, because few > > vendors use life span as a selling point. > > > > > > Similar Limitations > > Hard-drive disks also have their limitations, > > according to Gerecke. The problem with hard drives, > > he says, is not so much the disk itself as it is the > > disk bearing, which has a positioning function > > similar to a ball bearing. "If the hard drive uses > > an inexpensive disk bearing, that bearing will wear > > out faster than a more expensive one," he says. His > > recommendation: a hard-drive disk with 7200 > > revolutions per minute. > > > > To overcome the preservation limitations of burnable > > CDs, Gerecke suggests using magnetic tapes, which, > > he claims, can have a life span of 30 years to 100 > > years, depending on their quality. "Even if magnetic > > tapes are also subject to degradation, they're still > > the superior storage media," he says. > > > > But he's quick to point out that no storage medium > > lasts forever and, consequently, consumers and > > business alike need to have a migration plan to new > > storage technologies. > > > > "Companies, in particular, need to be constantly > > looking at new storage technologies and have an > > archiving strategy that allows them to automatically > > migrate to new technologies," he says. "Otherwise, > > they're going to wind up in a dead-end. And for > > those sitting on terabytes of crucial data, that > > could be a colossal problem." ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.clearswift.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:15:54 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire Remasters) On 1/13/06, aktivitaet@fivetenfifteen.com wrote: > > From my > own perspective, as a child of the Factory/4AD era where it was not only > music that was important but packaging and attitude in equal measures, I > can't see myself ever getting excited about downloading music - Music packaging suffered a severe blow from CD's it still didn't recover from. I download a lot but try to buy as much as I can afford. cheers giluz np Gogol Bordello - Gypsy Punks: Underdog World Strike - just bought it now. - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 10:17:33 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT:Marquee Moon (was Classic Wire Remasters) Having already got my favourite Wire releases on the original vinyl AND more recently CD, I'll wait to see how significant the improvement in audio quality is before diving in:- it's unlikely that there'll be room for any *additional* 'bonus' tracks on them beyond that of the CD releases I already have, so unless they substitute different work for the said extra tracks on CD release v1, that wouldn't be a reason to pile in:- apart , that is, from "Chairs Missing", where due to dropping the disk getting it out of my discman, I managed to put a small chip in the 'printed' side:- minor damage maybe, but now "French Film Blurred" refuses to play properly, it just 'hangs' until the offending bit is skipped past. This is a tad annoying, as it wasn't *that* much of a fall it took, and it's just a surface mark, but I guess because the laser isn't getting reflected back at that point , It can't be read. Surely we should expect the print side to have a more durable laquer applied if that side is equally important to playback? Co-incidentally, my re-mastered copy of Marquee Moon is similarly afflicted, which (to concur with Keith A) DID sport a big improvement in audio quality:- much crisper, with a larger playback level available:- and mercifully, it hadn't been tweaked in any other way: not remixed, no added FX, and no 'hum and squeak' extraction ! Other bands contemplating re-releases please note: don't fiddle with "improvements" to the thing, just give us better s/n ratios etc and we'll be happy. Unless of course, you'd like to stick some 'non album' singles / B-sides on there e.g. Our Swimmer/ Midnight Bahnhof Cafe etc etc.... ;-) Keith A wrote: > I already have the Wire albums in point, but assuming they were to have > been remastered and in significantly improved audio to warrant > repurchasing (one of the main points of re-issues) Going off on a tangent, I recently bought the expanded Marquee Moon - more for the extra tracks than any re-mastering to be honest, but it sounds fantastic. Some great alternative versions too - and a prev unreleased instrumental that sounds nothing like expected. Never have Television sounded so unlike Television. For those who haven't heard it, it sounds more like a surf act than NY's fab four. Keith np Stereo MC's - Paradise I know I'll be a minority here, but I like them even if they do basically consist of a grown man hollering 'come on, come on' over a funky beat ; ) - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos  Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and well bind it! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:26:54 +0000 (GMT) From: Monochromatic Man Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire Remasters) > Music packaging suffered a severe blow from CD's it > still didn't recover > from. I download a lot but try to buy as much as I > can afford. > Am I the only one who has trouble trying to read what is printed on cd packaging? I d/l a lot (not as much as I used to) and end up buying what I like. Still buy loads of vinyl! wnd3 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:31:54 -0600 From: David McKenzie Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT:Marquee Moon (was Classic Wire Remasters) > ... 'non album' singles / B-sides on there e.g. Our Swimmer/ Midnight > Bahnhof Cafe etc etc.... ;-) were on the Mute Document and Eyewitness CD release ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 13:14:37 -0800 (PST) From: Jan Noorda Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] Ducan Sonic So my first bought CDs for 2006 arrived. And there is a good one to mention. The collaboration release of John Duncan with the Pan Sonic members Mika Vainio and Ilpo Vaisanen is great. The album is called Nine Suggestions. http://www.allquestions.net/orderinfo.html#AQ08 j - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos  Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and well bind it! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 19:09:09 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, dpbailey@att.net wrote: > speaking of technical disc-related stuff, has the following come up here > before? > >>> "Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a >>> relatively short life span of between two to five >>> years, depending on the quality of the CD," Gerecke >>> says. "There are a few things you can do to extend >>> the life of a burned CD, like keeping the disc in a >>> cool, dark space, but not a whole lot more." This talk about CDRs not lasting as long as everyone thinks has been going on for quite a while, and I am starting to wonder why it is, then, that I have many discs dating back six years or more which are just fine? None of my CDRs have failed except for the first dozen I ever burned, which were all from the same package and which had some trouble playing from the day I made them-- those eventually died entirely. Just to make sure I'm not fooling myself, I've pulled out the oldest CDR for which I have a specific date recorded (September 1, 1998) and it's playing fine on my least forgiving CD player. I find it hard to imagine so many people that know more about the physical composition of CDR media than I do could be entirely wrong, but the chances that their estimates of disc lifetime are right-- and I'm just supernaturally lucky-- seem vanishingly small. a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:37:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ken Burns' Jazz DVDs Actually Bruno you're probably doing your dad a favor, unless that is he knows absolutely nothing about jazz. Ken Burns , who knew nothing about jazz before he commenced the documentary relied heavily on Wynton Marsalis, a bigoted, opinionated and totally inadequet jazz 'player. the jazz world generally scoffs at him, you see Wynton, unlike Branford, went for a 'classical music' training, during an interview with the jazz magazine jazziz about 5-6 years ago he actually stated that improvisation had no place in jazz. This is because, unlike his brother or any other jazz musician worth his oats, Wynton can't/ doeesn't know how to improvise. anyone who declares improvisation has no place in jazz has no place in jazz. I've kept that magazine all these years because it also featured an interview with John Zorn, one of America's most brilliant and prolific composers in several genres , my opinion, after reading the articles was thank goodness for Zorn and his vision of music and Marsalis is an idiot: much to my suprise the following issue was full of readers letters mirroring my perspective. If you really want to get your dad something meaty find a book he can put his face into that he'll want to read over and over, even better, buy him Miles Davis' autobiography, a brilliant book, someone stole my hard-back copy I had to re-buy in 'paperback' he'll learn much more about jazz musicians of the golden era from that book than he will from a hundred Ken Burns DVD's. A "Clements, Bruno - BUP" wrote: My dad's just bought a DVD player so, whoopee, I can now buy him DVDs for presents. An obvious choice is the Jazz series by Ken Burns - but would you believe it, the European version is only 12 hours long compared to the full 18-19 hours for sale in the US. Of course he's bought a Region 2 player so I can't even order the version from the States. Why on earth they give a series like this region encoding I can't imagine. It's totally self-defeating. I'm not going to buy him a heavily edited version of the 'real thing', neither am I going to buy him something he can only view on his iMac... http://tinyurl.com/eyomm ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.clearswift.com ********************************************************************** - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos  Showcase holiday pictures in hardcover Photo Books. You design it and well bind it! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:52:23 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... Actually Aaron (and where HAVE you been?) everything degrades in time and, although those c.d's may sound just fine if you had 'super ears' and could also go back in time to the day you actually recorded them and compared there is a good chance you would, eventually, hear a sonic difference between what they sounded like then and what they sound like today. A. Aaron Mandel wrote: On Fri, 13 Jan 2006, dpbailey@att.net wrote: > speaking of technical disc-related stuff, has the following come up here > before? > >>> "Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a >>> relatively short life span of between two to five >>> years, depending on the quality of the CD," Gerecke >>> says. "There are a few things you can do to extend >>> the life of a burned CD, like keeping the disc in a >>> cool, dark space, but not a whole lot more." This talk about CDRs not lasting as long as everyone thinks has been going on for quite a while, and I am starting to wonder why it is, then, that I have many discs dating back six years or more which are just fine? None of my CDRs have failed except for the first dozen I ever burned, which were all from the same package and which had some trouble playing from the day I made them-- those eventually died entirely. Just to make sure I'm not fooling myself, I've pulled out the oldest CDR for which I have a specific date recorded (September 1, 1998) and it's playing fine on my least forgiving CD player. I find it hard to imagine so many people that know more about the physical composition of CDR media than I do could be entirely wrong, but the chances that their estimates of disc lifetime are right-- and I'm just supernaturally lucky-- seem vanishingly small. a - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:14:22 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... > Actually Aaron (and where HAVE you been?) everything degrades in time > and, although those c.d's may sound just fine if you had 'super ears' and > could also go back in time to the day you actually recorded them and > compared there is a good chance you would, eventually, hear a sonic > difference between what they sounded like then and what they sound like > today. A. > Sorry to disagree with you publicly Ari, but that's just not true. ^_^ What you say is 100% true for analog - vinyl and tape systems. Vinyl deforms slightly with every play - there's a bow shockwave effect from the stylus as it travels over the record's surface (which is actually a very viscous liquid) - plus wear and friction and dirt. Tape also has wear issues - the oxide sheds from the tape with every play - but there's also a de-magnetizing effect . Tape de-magnetizes slightly even after it's just recorded - if you wait a week after you lay down some hot grooves, and then play back the tape, it won't sound *quite* so hot. But digital mediums don't degrade like that - that's one reason they're so popular. Unless the CD has significant bit rot - the disc is actually destructing - the audio does *not* change. That's what the error correction built into CD does. (Minor scratches do not count - major ones would.) What happens is that the error correction *completely* corrects the errors - until the disc degrades to a point where there are too many errors to correct. (This can take a while - the Reed/Solomon encoding on CD plus 8-to-14 bit modulation can auto-correct a large number of errors.) Then, and only then, will the CD player start to interpolate data based on what it thinks the missing data was. This would be the first time you could conceivably hear any differences - but it would be very hard to hear with most modern players. If the disc continues to degrade, then eventually the interpolation will fail - and at that point, the disc becomes unlistenable - pretty much instantly. So - to summarize - CDs sound identical to the day they were pressed - until they die. Then they're unplayable. It's happened to me once or twice with discs that had the "bad ink on the label side" problem. I kept one of them - NewOrder's Technique. If your discs are kept in good condition, and in a fairly climate neutral area - i.e. not too hot, not too cold, or not too humid - they should sound identical to the day you bought them. Now - if the discs are mastered poorly - they'll stay mastered poorly. That's the flipside - the discs only sound as good as their mastering. If you want a better disc, you have to wait for a remaster and re-buy it. ^_^ Hope this helps! ^_^ Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 20:27:34 -0600 From: David McKenzie Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Copy control technology (was Classic Wire Remasters) it is called presbyopia and no matter of fact i just bought 5 more pairs of reading glassed from the dollar store this evening god bless the chinese On 1/13/06, Monochromatic Man wrote: > > > Music packaging suffered a severe blow from CD's it > > still didn't recover > > from. I download a lot but try to buy as much as I > > can afford. > > > > Am I the only one who has trouble trying to read what > is printed on cd packaging? > > I d/l a lot (not as much as I used to) and end up > buying what I like. > Still buy loads of vinyl! > > wnd3 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 07:42:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Monochromatic Man Subject: Re: [idealcopy] not exactly comforting ... I have some cdrs that go back over six years and still play fine. I have them all stacked on spindles, some are in cases and some are in piles. I had two bad 50 packs a couple years back. I think both were Hypermedia. I know Robert got stuck with some of those. Most of my disc problems are burn related. Some older software was not compatible with every burner, slow pc, pilot error... Who knows how we'll be listening in a few years? I have records I bought as a kid still sounding good after thirty some years. wnd3 - --- Ari wrote: > Actually Aaron (and where HAVE you been?) > everything degrades in time and, although those > c.d's may sound just fine if you had 'super ears' > and could also go back in time to the day you > actually recorded them and compared there is a good > chance you would, eventually, hear a sonic > difference between what they sounded like then and > what they sound like today. A. > > > Aaron Mandel wrote: On > Fri, 13 Jan 2006, dpbailey@att.net wrote: > > > speaking of technical disc-related stuff, has the > following come up here > > before? > > > >>> "Unlike pressed original CDs, burned CDs have a > >>> relatively short life span of between two to > five > >>> years, depending on the quality of the CD," > Gerecke > >>> says. "There are a few things you can do to > extend > >>> the life of a burned CD, like keeping the disc > in a > >>> cool, dark space, but not a whole lot more." > > This talk about CDRs not lasting as long as everyone > thinks has been going > on for quite a while, and I am starting to wonder > why it is, then, that I > have many discs dating back six years or more which > are just fine? None of > my CDRs have failed except for the first dozen I > ever burned, which were > all from the same package and which had some trouble > playing from the day > I made them-- those eventually died entirely. > > Just to make sure I'm not fooling myself, I've > pulled out the oldest CDR > for which I have a specific date recorded (September > 1, 1998) and it's > playing fine on my least forgiving CD player. > > I find it hard to imagine so many people that know > more about the physical > composition of CDR media than I do could be entirely > wrong, but the > chances that their estimates of disc lifetime are > right-- and I'm just > supernaturally lucky-- seem vanishingly small. > > a > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Photos > Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality > prints in your hands ASAP. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V9 #13 ******************************