From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V8 #329 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, December 2 2005 Volume 08 : Number 329 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Hawkwind [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] Monkeys backstage [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] so long and thanks for all the fish! ["nowhere man" ] Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind [Derek White ] [idealcopy] OT:- [In a conspiratorial whisper]:the follow-up gig to BSP is..... [Derek White ] Re: [idealcopy] OT:- [In a conspiratorial whisper]:the follow-up gig to BSP is..... [Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Hawkwind On 12/1/05, Tim wrote: > > Well Can always threatened to be a prog band and indeed the clip of Can > doing 'Vernal Equinox' on the Old Grey Whistle Test is just bad prog > rock played by badly dressed, hairy men. And listening to their live albums released over the years we really have to thank the editing skills of Holger Czukay who left out most of the prog stuff. Colin Newman of course did a remix of a Hawkwind track 'Masters of the > Universe' > I think it was supposed to appear on their remix album but didn't because of some silly royalties thing. Does anyone still have it? I've lost my copy years ago, and it's a pity cause it rocked. I think someone once said that R&B01 contains a sample taken from Hawkwind. Does anyone know? cheers giluz - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:19:35 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Monkeys backstage How nice to see the old Rowland image rather than the current heavy metal version! BTW Fergus, your memory is definitely playing tricks on you - that Fall gig is much earlier than 2002, as that's Julia Nagle on kbds (since replaced by latest Mrs Smith) and (I think) Adam Helal on bass - there have been three bassists since he left! I reckon it's Feb 2001.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 09:39:54 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind >> Well Can always threatened to be a prog band and indeed the clip of Can > doing 'Vernal Equinox' on the Old Grey Whistle Test is just bad prog > rock played by badly dressed, hairy men.<< Ah, but they're well past their peak by then.... And listening to their live albums released over the years we really have to thank the editing skills of Holger Czukay who left out most of the prog stuff.<< Credit also to Jaki Liebezeit for the motorik rhythms rather than the frilly jazz stuff he was used to playing... The Krautrock musicians generally play within themselves - Klaus Dinger only became Neu's drummer because he couldn't find a drummer who was prepared to play so minimally... By contrast the UK early 70s prog scene is littered with flash, showy musos like Emerson and Wakeman. A lot of the most irritating features of prog for me derive from the "Englishness" of it - whimsical lyrics, general prissiness, etc. This is by definition absent from the equivalent German music of the time. (as an aside, the absence of whimsical prissiness, for want of a better term, makes post-Syd Pink Floyd far more durable than most proggy contemporaries...) There's also an inherent desire of the German musicians to create something genuinely new, and not a rehash of the Anglo-American culture to which they'd been subjected post-war. So there are elements of trying to reclaim "lost" strands of German music from the pre-Nazi era. Whereas BritProg simply evolves from the blues/folk/psych elements that were around at the time. As for Hawkwind, I'd agree that they fit more comfortably with the German stuff than the Brit muso-prog of the time, though for me they're aligned with the less interesting part of Krautrock - the "freak-out" Amon Duul/Ash Ra Tempel hairy rock stuff, rather than the minimal Can/Neu/Kraftwerk stuff, which still sounds fresh today. Colin Newman of course did a remix of a Hawkwind track 'Masters of the > Universe' > I think it was supposed to appear on their remix album but didn't because of some silly royalties thing. Does anyone still have it? I've lost my copy years ago, and it's a pity cause it rocked. I think someone once said that R&B01 contains a sample taken from Hawkwind. Does anyone know?<< Probably that track! I've got MotU somewhere - will try and dig it out for you... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:16:46 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind On 12/1/05, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > > > > Credit also to Jaki Liebezeit for the motorik rhythms rather than the > frilly jazz stuff he was used to playing... > Was that what he did before Can? There's also an inherent desire of the German musicians to create > something genuinely new, and not a rehash of the Anglo-American culture to > which they'd been subjected post-war. So there are elements of trying to > reclaim "lost" strands of German music from the pre-Nazi era. Whereas > BritProg simply evolves from the blues/folk/psych elements that were around > at the time. > What kind of pre-Nazi German music? I totally agree with you about Can's Year Zero approach, but I never found anything in their music which reminded me of pre-Nazi Germany (not that I'm an expert). As for Hawkwind, I'd agree that they fit more comfortably with the German > stuff than the Brit muso-prog of the time, though for me they're aligned > with the less interesting part of Krautrock - the "freak-out" Amon Duul/Ash > Ra Tempel hairy rock stuff, rather than the minimal Can/Neu/Kraftwerk stuff, > which still sounds fresh today. > Were they German as well? Always assumed Hawkwind were English, but yeah, I agree with you as to their music. That spacey stoner krautrock never really touched me. cheers giluz - -- Now playing: http://www.last.fm/user/giluz/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 10:43:10 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind >> Credit also to Jaki Liebezeit for the motorik rhythms rather than the > frilly jazz stuff he was used to playing... > Was that what he did before Can?<< He was a jazz drummer - whereas Holger & Irmin were classical types and Karoli the "rocker". >>>What kind of pre-Nazi German music? I totally agree with you about Can's Year Zero approach, but I never found anything in their music which reminded me of pre-Nazi Germany (not that I'm an expert).<< I'm no expert either - but classical music and German folk music are all part of the mix. My comments weren't specific to Can - more to the undercurrents of the German scene at the time. Kraftwerk's use of German folk traditions is well documented and more obvious than Can - who after all did acknowledge US influences, specifically the Velvet Underground. Michael Karoli was clearly in tune with American rock guitar... >>Were they German as well? Always assumed Hawkwind were English,<< No, no - they're English - my point was their music seemed to have more in common with some of the German bands rather than other British bands at the time. >> but yeah, I agree with you as to their music. That spacey stoner krautrock never really touched me.<< Me neither. Even Faust (who bridge the "krautrock" stuff and the "spacey stoner" stuff) can be hard going - give me Can or the Kraftwerk/Cluster/Neu!/Harmonia/La Dusseldorf extended family any day.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 08:44:35 -0800 From: "nowhere man" Subject: [idealcopy] so long and thanks for all the fish! "The illusion of freedom [in America] will continue as long as it's profitable to continue the illusion. At the point where the illusion becomes too expensive to maintain, they will just take down the scenery, they will pull back the curtains, they will move the tables and chairs out of the way and you will see the brick wall at the back of the theater." - -Frank Zappa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:10:42 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: By contrast the UK early 70s prog scene is littered with flash, showy musos like Emerson and Wakeman. ////// Ye gods, the UK scene at the time was absolutely groaning under the weight of such twiddly-noodly bollocks.................... A lot of the most irritating features of prog for me derive from the "Englishness" of it - whimsical lyrics, general prissiness, etc. This is by definition absent from the equivalent German music of the time. ////// For whimsical lyrics, and general prissiness, probably *the* worst offenders were Caravan, who at least had the saving grace of being gently self-mocking, and the lamentable Supertramp , who weren't. Then there was a whole slew of other Mellotron-toting, Roger-Dean-album-sleeve-commissioning " Velvet-clad ninnies** ", like Barclay James Harvest, Greenslade etc etc...........the list is long and not a little depressing. ;-) In general, I think a LOT of the blame for the endemic 'prissiness' and 'whimsy' of U.K.music of the time can be laid squarely on The Beatles. Their mannered "more tea, Vicar"- ness, and studied English tweeness inspired a lot of people to follow suit at that time....... that, plus the sheer number of ex public-school boys trying to get a music career......................... (** thanks to Peelie for that succinct description) What else could a poor boy do but gravitate to the likes of Hawkwind / Pink Fairies if you needed something a little more visceral from live bands in the UK ? (as an aside, the absence of whimsical prissiness, for want of a better term, makes post-Syd Pink Floyd far more durable than most proggy contemporaries...) Equally aside....this is why I, uniquely on this list, it seems, am prepared to give Waters a little credit:- I reckon had it not been for him, PF would have continued doing ' 'whimsical' stuff like "Julia Dream" "Fat Old Sun", "Summer 68" 'til the cows came home.[ End of PF bit, Ronald ;-) ] There's also an inherent desire of the German musicians to create something genuinely new, and not a rehash of the Anglo-American culture to which they'd been subjected post-war. So there are elements of trying to reclaim "lost" strands of German music from the pre-Nazi era. Whereas BritProg simply evolves from the blues/folk/psych elements that were around at the time. ////// Absolutely, Mark. Nail. Head. Square hit thereon, I think. The fledgling German prog-rock culture had *absolutely* no wish to buy ' Bert Weedon's Play-in-a-day guide', nor in learning "Johnny B Goode" and all those other cheesy R'n'R standards that seemed to be de rigeur among bands here. They had no indigenous rock tradition so they set out to invent one from scratch, and even the less avant-garde bands that included any nods in that direction, did so with an oddly off-kilter inflexion. As for Hawkwind, I'd agree that they fit more comfortably with the German stuff than the Brit muso-prog of the time, though for me they're aligned with the less interesting part of Krautrock - the "freak-out" Amon Duul/Ash Ra Temple hairy rock stuff, rather than the minimal Can/Neu/Kraftwerk stuff, which still sounds fresh today. Up to a point, yes: though I think we should distinguish between the free-improvising, cast-of-thousands [dire] Amon Duul 1, doing whole side footling 'jams', and AD-2, who moved towards more condensed, song-based stuff . And Kraftwerk didn't always look and sound *that* way:- I seem to recall they looked rather more hirsuit on the sleeve of "Ralf Und Florian"(?):- the one with "Ruckzack" and "Von Himmel Hoch" on it, which was rather more psyche than the tick-tock digi-clock stuff like "Radioactivity" , "Autobahn" etc IIRC. ? Colin Newman of course did a remix of a Hawkwind track 'Masters of the > Universe' >I think it was supposed to appear on their remix album but didn't because of some silly royalties thing. Does anyone still have it? I've lost my copy years ago, and it's a pity cause it rocked. I think someone once said that R&B01 contains a sample taken from Hawkwind. Does anyone know?<< Probably that track! I've got MotU somewhere - will try and dig it out for you... Mark ///// That'd be interesting..... I knew it existed, but never got to hear it. There *was* a 'Wind remixes album, done by people like the Orb and loads of other late-90's contemporaries, but yeah, you're right, I don't recall seeing Colin's name mentioned, or even a version of "MotU" on it. *Think* the album was called "Sonic Assassins" or somesuch.................. Derek - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Skip the bars and set-ups and start using Yahoo! Personals for free ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:20:09 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Hawkwind MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: Kraftwerk's use of German folk traditions is well documented and more obvious than Can - who after all did acknowledge US influences, specifically the Velvet Underground. Michael Karoli was clearly in tune with American rock guitar... ///// In part, yes, but he'd been more than brushed by the 'avant-garde' stick, as well. For a while around 74, the NME did a sort of 'teach-yourself-guitar' pull-out section in weekly parts, and the 'guest lesson' one week was Micheal Karoli. His tip for playing his 'z-shaped noises' (!) was as follows...... "Imagine 20 cows and a bull going up a hill.........and then play it." Well, thanks for that, Micheal. ;-) Incidentally, Can didn't *always* get it right:- " I want more" was a waste of good electricity, IIRC, as was it's contemporaneous album (Flow Motion ??) - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Single? There's someone we'd like you to meet. Lots of someones, actually. Yahoo! Personals ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:38:11 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: [idealcopy] OT:- [In a conspiratorial whisper]:the follow-up gig to BSP is..... .....looking like a certain band, beloved by some of the IC congregation, led by a gobby piss-artiste who likes to twiddle his band-mates amp controls, and has been known to fall offstage and / or get hitched to his bandmates...... Nothing set in stone yet, but I do know negotiations are currently under way. *IF* it happens, it leaves me with an interesting poser:- should I stay or should I go....? Some IC'ers might know that the '2nd most popular band on the list' ain't exactly required listening for me, but still.......it's just down the road, after all... Hmm. There's also AIM on boxing day, too, but I know nothing about *them* Are they a circus troupe, or some lousy metal band, or what ? ;-) - --------------------------------- Yahoo! Personals Let fate take it's course directly to your email. See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 20:49:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] The Ideal Copywriter (((...speaking of which.. Mark should do a bit of > copywriting as he really summed up Deceit rather > cleverly... I can't recommend it highly enough..<< Mark writes quite a lot of copy every day as part of his general activities! >>> Well then... you're in the right job, aren't you ! By the way, I own both the 801 and Quiet Sun albums ;-) >>> A closet progger ? ;-) Fergus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 12:57:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT:- [In a conspiratorial whisper]:the follow-up gig to BSP is..... yuze talkin' 'bout erm, the Fall? you gotta go Derek, good night guaranteed....... A - --- Derek White wrote: > .....looking like a certain band, beloved by some > of the IC congregation, led by a gobby piss-artiste > who likes to twiddle his band-mates amp controls, > and has been known to fall offstage and / or get > hitched to his bandmates...... > > Nothing set in stone yet, but I do know > negotiations are currently under way. > *IF* it happens, it leaves me with an interesting > poser:- should I stay or should I go....? > > Some IC'ers might know that the '2nd most popular > band on the list' ain't exactly required listening > for me, but still.......it's just down the road, > after all... > > Hmm. There's also AIM on boxing day, too, but I > know nothing about *them* > Are they a circus troupe, or some lousy metal > band, or what ? ;-) > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Personals > Let fate take it's course directly to your email. > See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals > __________________________________________ Yahoo! DSL  Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 21:09:01 +0000 (GMT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] All we ever wanted was sanitary plumbing Tony said re Camberwell Now: You're right, the band were excellent - basically a more tuneful, less abrasive version of This Heat. I think I only saw them once - friends kept telling me how good they were but I just thought "after This Heat, etc..." . They were, of course, fantastic. Hayward was even more to the front than in This Heat playing a kind of "lead drums". ((( After all the talk I had to listen to this album today... "lead drums" is just what I was thinking as it unfolded.. drum led, with being drum heavy.. CH's rhythms are generally pretty spartan, but really crack along like his life depended on it, especially on a track like Green Lantern. An incredibly solid, grounded presence, driving a thoroughly involving swirl of melodies, texture and song. These are really well worked and finely realised tunes, some of which are quite long, clocking in at between 7 and 11 minutes if I remember rightly... though they seem to whizz by.. Powerful stuff. Still manages to raise the hairs on the back of my neck. Fergus ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2005 22:52:19 +0000 From: dpbailey@att.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Monkeys backstage - -------------- Original message from MarkBursa@aol.com: -------------- > How nice to see the old Rowland image rather than the current heavy metal > version! any photographic representations of the latter incarnation around? dan, who's been getting somewhat regular haircuts for the last year or so, though the last few days late-period elvis has been wanting his sideburns back ... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2005 00:37:09 +0000 From: dpbailey@att.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT:- [In a conspiratorial whisper]:the follow-up gig to BSP is..... i had *no idea* 2 members of pink floyd had married each other ... gilmour & waters, i s'pose? dan - -------------- Original message from Derek White : -------------- > .....looking like a certain band, beloved by some of the IC congregation, led > by a gobby piss-artiste who likes to twiddle his band-mates amp controls, and > has been known to fall offstage and / or get hitched to his bandmates...... > > Nothing set in stone yet, but I do know negotiations are currently under way. > *IF* it happens, it leaves me with an interesting poser:- should I stay or > should I go....? > > Some IC'ers might know that the '2nd most popular band on the list' ain't > exactly required listening for me, but still.......it's just down the road, > after all... > > Hmm. There's also AIM on boxing day, too, but I know nothing about *them* > Are they a circus troupe, or some lousy metal band, or what ? ;-) > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Personals > Let fate take it's course directly to your email. > See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2005 17:21:07 -0800 From: "nowhere_man" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT:- [In a conspiratorial whisper]:the follow-up gig to BSP is..... i do hope they don't breed.............. ari.......will try and e- you fromsomewhere this weekend........keep your fingers crossed for me that my old jalopy makes 300 miles tonight. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT:- [In a conspiratorial whisper]:the follow-up gig to BSP is..... >i had *no idea* 2 members of pink floyd had married each other ... gilmour >& waters, i s'pose? > > dan > > > > > -------------- Original message from Derek White > : -------------- > > >> .....looking like a certain band, beloved by some of the IC congregation, >> led >> by a gobby piss-artiste who likes to twiddle his band-mates amp controls, >> and >> has been known to fall offstage and / or get hitched to his >> bandmates...... >> >> Nothing set in stone yet, but I do know negotiations are currently under >> way. >> *IF* it happens, it leaves me with an interesting poser:- should I stay >> or >> should I go....? >> >> Some IC'ers might know that the '2nd most popular band on the list' ain't >> exactly required listening for me, but still.......it's just down the >> road, >> after all... >> >> Hmm. There's also AIM on boxing day, too, but I know nothing about *them* >> Are they a circus troupe, or some lousy metal band, or what ? ;-) >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Yahoo! Personals >> Let fate take it's course directly to your email. >> See who's waiting for you Yahoo! Personals ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V8 #329 *******************************