From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V8 #116 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, May 2 2005 Volume 08 : Number 116 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Moo to you [Fergus Kelly ] Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux ["Keith A" ] [idealcopy] K.A sed............ [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] The New Kraftwerk [Ari ] [idealcopy] Kraftwork [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] Moo to you [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux [Bart van Damme ] RE: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux ["Keith Knight" ] [idealcopy] Follow the leader [Fergus Kelly ] wanna jam? Re: [idealcopy] Think of a number [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Follow the leader [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 03:29:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Moo to you Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:55:36 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] A long way from Tramway > Exactly 1 year today since Wire's last gig. Linking in > with the recent thread on chance operations, I put up > this chance derived image on flickr to mark the > occasion: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/55867717@N00/11582899/ > Printer ink depletion bled the boys dry Nice one Fergus! Is it just me or do I see a headless cow (2nd from the right) here? ;-) ))) No cows on the ice ! Fergus Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 11:44:47 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux > the miles davis quote (if it was his. again, i can't recall exactly who said > it) about playing inside before you can play outside was definitely about > improvisation. essentially, he was just saying that one needs to learn all the > theory, mechanics, etc first. Fuck. We're veering into Pink Floyd territory here! Give the synths to the monkeys, man!! On a more serious note, although you have to be reasonably proficient, I think ideas and creativity are more essential than musicianship. I'm not anti-ability by any means (I'd certainly like to be a more proficient musician than I am, but certainly not so I can indulge in 10 notes a second fret-wankery), but take Can out of the equation and how many bands of 'musicians' did anything interesting? I'm talking of the rock genre btw, not jazz, which seems to me to be made by cold hearted people who are good at maths ; ) K. np Suicide - American Supreme ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 12:08:30 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: [idealcopy] The New Kraftwerk Subject: The New Kraftwerk = http://www.private-eye.co.uk/content/showitem.cfm/issue.1131/section.look= [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Private Eye Lookalikes.url] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 04:31:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] K.A sed............ >>I'm talking of the rock genre btw, not jazz, which seems to me to be made by cold hearted people who are good at maths ; )<< Time for me to send you some Jazz mr. A, it'll change yer mind,with so many styles of jazz it'll knock that comment to the floor. Sure, many jazz players were classical trained thus they had instilled the old school 'play it as it's writt', but even that's old hat today and many classic trained jazz players crossed over to get away from unbending stucture in their music. I'd start you off with Miles/Gill Evans 'Concierto de Aranjues' or ' Panthalasa', Miles' music brilliantly remastered by Bill Laswell, and lead you on to John Zorns Massada Chamber Ensemble playing his Bar Kokhba suite, beautiful music indeed, unlike some of the 'noise' series he's put out. Ari Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 04:32:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The New Kraftwerk Link don't work Mr. A Keith A wrote:Subject: The New Kraftwerk = http://www.private-eye.co.uk/content/showitem.cfm/issue.1131/section.look= [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Private Eye Lookalikes.url] Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 05:22:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Kraftwork This works........ (hopefuly) A http://tinyurl.com/e3whe Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 14:34:32 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Moo to you >> Is it just me or do I see a headless cow (2nd from the right) here? > No cows on the ice ! Every dog has its day ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 01 May 2005 14:54:18 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux > Give the synths to the monkeys, man!! > I'm talking of the rock genre btw, not jazz, which seems to me to be made by > cold hearted people who are good at maths ; ) You're hereby sentenced to read the beneath! -Bart Thelonious Sphere Monk, Jazz music composer, Jazz piano player, and Jazz pianist extraordinaire. We are jazz music. We are jazz piano. We are music. We are hip hop. We are jazz. We are music-theory. We are music-education. We are Thelonious Monk. 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Thelonious Monk compact discs are for sale. Thelonious Monk, from bebop to hip hop. Thelonious Monk is hip hop. Thelonious Monk is american pop culture. Thelonious is an american composer. Thelonious Monk is jazz music. Thelonious Monk is jazz piano. Thelonious Monk is a pianist. Thelonious Monk is jazz. Thelonious Monk is bebop. Thelonious Monk is hardbop. Thelonious Monk is hip hop. Thelonious Monk is modern jazz. We are jazz music. We are jazz piano. We are music. We are hip hop. We are jazz. We are music-theory. We are music-education. We are Thelonious Monk. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:16:00 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux > > I'm talking of the rock genre btw, not jazz, which seems to me to be made by > > cold hearted people who are good at maths ; ) > > You're hereby sentenced to read the beneath! -Bart Boy, do you fellas want to make me suffer! I dunno what's worse - "Thelonious Sphere Monk, Jazz music composer, Jazz piano player, and Jazz pianist extraordinaire. We are jazz music. We are jazz piano. We are music" et al, or Ari's threat to send me some jazz. Are you guys sadists or something? ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:53:42 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Moo to you On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 02:34:32PM +0200, Bart van Damme wrote: > >> Is it just me or do I see a headless cow (2nd from the right) here? > > > No cows on the ice ! > > Every dog has its day Here's hoping there isn't a man on the end. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 08:58:27 -0500 From: "David McKenzie" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rorschaching Rules! Burroughs/Gysin cut up antics come to mind as well, thought this was very intentioned action. Language is a virus which(if I recall correctly) originated when Eve said "Hello" to Adam. Which, while a novel, even brilliant, concept, proceeds directly from the he misogynist Burroughs/Gysin tendencies which ultimately turned me off. > "Mr. Chance" of course must be Uebersurrealist Andre Breton who > pioneered in psychic automatism and automatic writing. Breton puts it > like this: > "The true functioning of thought. The dictation of thought, in the > absence of all control by reason, excluding any aesthetic or moral preoccupation" > Almost like expressionism in reverse! > i always had my suspicions about the surrealists. as much as i love their work (and i love a lot of it very much), some of their automatic writings, individual and group work, like exquisite corpses seem too good. i think either they were very comfortable and familiar with each other (knowing somewhat what to expect from each other)... or there was some cheating going on :o) I suspect it might have been a bit of both with an emphasis on the latter Desirable accidents are more likely when they occur in a comfortable and familiar context ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 11:52:00 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux In a message dated 5/1/05 9:02:14 AM, bartvandamme@home.nl writes: > > Thelonious ... Thelonious Monk. > now yer talkin! sorry for snipping a few of the words, bart, but i think i kept the gist up here :o) keith, i don't know if you've avoided jazz or tried and disliked, but either way please give monk a shot (or another shot). i'd like to suggest mulligan meets monk. nothing wanky going on and mulligan's baritone sax fits in so beautifully. i don't think louis armstrong was a coldhearted mathlete either. bringing the discussion a bit on-topic for a moment... if you're more interested in an outdoor miner's map references than a piano tuner's underwater experiences, then i know a lot of jazz can be difficult listening. maybe there's something more to your liking from the 20's or 30's. if you prefer vocalists, maybe billie holiday could do the trick. maybe her more pop oriented stuff from the mid 40's. hope you find something that'll change your mind, but if not, then oh well :o) - -another the paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 14:36:50 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux In a message dated 01/05/2005 17:08:07 GMT Daylight Time, Eardrumbuz@aol.com writes: maybe there's something more to your liking from the 20's or 30's. if you prefer vocalists, I've always liked Jazz myself & have some old stuff & some relatively new stuff - but I wouldn't say it was my first love.I have 2 LP's by Wardell Gray of which I could wholeheartedly recommend.Great swing music & toe tapping stuff. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 20:25:56 +0100 From: "Keith A" Subject: [idealcopy] What's It Worth? The Times had an article last week entitled 'Music and art tie the Knot', which related to two video artists (the Wilsons) working on an opera entitled The Knot Garden. There was also a small peice accompanying it, entitled 'What's It Worth? Art on stage' which included the following... "The Chapman Brothers Shocking only in it's banality, the brothers disappointing staging for Wire's Pink Flag concert featured footage of aerobic classes. Cost: labour fees only, around #3000." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:08:53 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux I give you Mark Stewart and the Maffia who - Mark Stewart apart - are the most technically proficient musicians I suspect I've seen close up. The Maffia, of course, being Tackhead by any other name - Doug Wimbish, Skip Macdonald and Keith LeBlanc. I am someone who doesn't know how to play a note but they certainly looked to me like people who could do whatever they wanted with a fret and drum-kit but chose to use it as a backing band for a man who preferred to rant incoherently in a darkened space. An awesome noise, challenging but always danceable. In my mind right now because they're playing a couple of gigs in early June in London and Bristol (their first performances as the Maffia for about 13 years I reckon) and I'm on bloody holiday in Devon. Van der Graaf are also pretty proficient (aside from Hammill whose instrumental ability doesn't approach his vocal ability - definite jazz influences there of course in the sax especially). As were Led Zeppelin and Henry Cow (who are still for me on the rock side of jazz). And Can of course. Also, I've been relistening to a fair bit of Hatfield and the North this year and they seemed capable of doing whatever they wanted. The area of music which always impresses me with the virtuosity of its playing is folk. There seems to be dozens of people out there who can wield fiddles, guitars and pipes in bogglingly accomplished ways. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Keith A On a more serious note, although you have to be reasonably proficient, I think ideas and creativity are more essential than musicianship. I'm not anti-ability by any means (I'd certainly like to be a more proficient musician than I am, but certainly not so I can indulge in 10 notes a second fret-wankery), but take Can out of the equation and how many bands of 'musicians' did anything interesting? I'm talking of the rock genre btw, not jazz, which seems to me to be made by cold hearted people who are good at maths ; ) K. np Suicide - American Supreme ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 23:04:53 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux On Sun, May 01, 2005 at 11:44:47AM +0100, Keith A wrote: > On a more serious note, although you have to be reasonably proficient, I > think ideas and creativity are more essential than musicianship. I'm not > anti-ability by any means (I'd certainly like to be a more proficient > musician than I am, but certainly not so I can indulge in 10 notes a second > fret-wankery), but take Can out of the equation and how many bands of > 'musicians' did anything interesting? Okay, people are going to want to lynch me for some of these, but Squarepusher (who is a prodigiously talented jazz bassist), Jimi Hendrix, Godspeed You! Black Emperor (c'mon, there's a full string section in the band for goodness' sake), Radiohead (if having Radio 3's composer-in-residence in the band counts), Tortoise... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 15:28:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Think of a number Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 07:02:08 -0500 From: "David McKenzie" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] |OT| randomness redux Cage, in particular was not an improviser. His music was indeterminately composed, but the performance was not. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ))) Cage was quite anti-improvisation, too much performers personality at play for him. His rules were fairly rigid. He wanted to remove the hand of the composer. Yet paradoxically, his signature was all over it. With few exceptions, his writings were far more interesting than his music - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Improvisation, while having the possibility of sounding random, is based on a pre-determined theme or motif which is generally not random. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ))) As an improvisor, I beg to differ. Improvisation, (in the broadest sense, not just in the sense of jazz riffing) is not predetermined. Such is it's freedom. The only things predetermined about it are the choice of instruments/soundsources and the choice of who plays with who. It is music in the moment. Composition in the here-and-now, organically unfolding. When things are really focussed, the 'randomness' can sound quite 'composed'... - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Probably the key difference is that improvisation is concerned with performance, while indeterminacy is a method of composition. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ((( The main difference is that improv is not rehearsed, and never repeats the same thing twice. Fergus Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 15:38:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Follow the leader Eardrum paul said: real time random performance would be a cool one to pull off. i can imagine the method making for an interesting part of the performance, as well as having a profound effect on the tempo :o) i've thought about it for many years but have never attempted it. my favorite idea involves having cheerleaders hold up signs with letters on them (a through g with all the #'s and b's thrown in...and pulled at random, of course) for the marching band. ))) John Zorn has used cards in this way for players in his 'game' pieces, as has bassist Barry Guy. Highly entertaining to watch. There is also the Butch Morris approach to 'conduction', as used with The London Improvisors Orchestra, where players respond to a whole range of signs and prompts, based on certain playing rules. Fergus Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:57:49 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: wanna jam? Re: [idealcopy] Think of a number In a message dated 5/1/05 6:37:13 PM, lockupyourhats@yahoo.com writes: > Improvisation, while having the possibility of > sounding random, is based on > a pre-determined theme or motif which is generally not > > random. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ))) As an improvisor, I beg to differ. Improvisation, > (in the broadest sense, not just in the sense of jazz > riffing) is not predetermined. Such is it's freedom. > The only things predetermined about it are the choice > of instruments/soundsources and the choice of who > plays with who. It is music in the moment. Composition > in the here-and-now, organically unfolding. When > things are really focussed, the 'randomness' can sound > quite 'composed'... > i agree that nothing necessarily needs to be predetermined, but is there really soemthing random taking place, or is it just the unexpected results of jamming/improvising. i think the 'randomness' here is really more what you state below (as not rehearsed), unless someone is randomly choosing what's being played > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Probably the key difference is that improvisation is > concerned with > performance, while indeterminacy is a method of > composition. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > ((( The main difference is that improv is not > rehearsed > i think our posts are evolving like an improvised piece during a jam session. :o) i agree with pretty much everything everyone has had to say on the subject(s). initially, when we started to differentiate between improvisation and something else, the something else had to do with chance operations. the closest thing i can think of to improvisation where the resulting sound is left largely to chance is when the plasmatics would split up into separate soundproof rooms and play 'together'. just wanted to also quote keith (or another the keith?), cuz i forgot to when i replied to his post earlier: On a more serious note, although you have to be reasonably proficient, I think ideas and creativity are more essential than musicianship. I'm not anti-ability by any means (I'd certainly like to be a more proficient musician than I am, but certainly not so I can indulge in 10 notes a second fret-wankery) i feel exactly the same. taste is so much more important than technical ability :o) - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 1 May 2005 21:59:45 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Follow the leader In a message dated 5/1/05 6:39:09 PM, lockupyourhats@yahoo.com writes: > > ))) John Zorn has used cards in this way for players > in his 'game' pieces, as has bassist Barry Guy. Highly > entertaining to watch. There is also the Butch Morris > approach to 'conduction', as used with The London > Improvisors Orchestra, where players respond to a > whole range of signs and prompts, based on certain > playing rules. > cool. i saw zorn once, but i'm not familiar with the 'game' pieces. will check em out, thanks! -paul c.d. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V8 #116 *******************************