From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #349 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, December 4 2004 Volume 07 : Number 349 Today's Subjects: ----------------- FW: [idealcopy] VDGG [Alistair Tear ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: CCR/John Fogerty......was 'Van der Graaf Generator reform' [Derek White ] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] B&S [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] [idealcopy] ot: manhunter movie [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] B&S ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] (how s)LOW (can you go) [fernando ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: CCR/John Fogerty......was 'Van der Graaf Generator reform' ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] ot: manhunter movie ["dan bailey" ] RE: [idealcopy] B&S ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] B&S [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] B&S ["dan bailey" ] RE: [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: FW: [idealcopy] VDGG >>Go on. Someone defend Marillion. I dare ya! >>Mark Provisionally entitled the singing fish? I'll get me coat... A ************************************************************************* The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London Street Management hereby excludes any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this e-mail and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify postmaster@Streetmanagement.org.uk. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 03 Dec 2004 12:44:05 +0000 From: near_0@comcast.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fw: blue monday owners club > server not found.Ari Just take the /=20 off the end of the link. billE __..--=-=*|/'..'\|*=-=---..__ home.comcast.net/~near_0/ > server not found.Ari > --- Keith Astbury > wrote: > > > Do you own an original 12" of "Blue Monday" by New > > Order? > > (Cat No.FAC 73)=20 > > > > Do you want to be part of this ongoing artwork?=20 > > > > > > http://www.bluemondayownersclub.com/=20 > > > > [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type > > application/octet-stream which had a name of blue > > monday owners club.url] > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 09:42:58 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S >>Given that I'm into both Mogwai/gy!be/ExITS style post rock and ambient/IDMish electronica, both of which definitely stare the prospect of being the New Prog in the face, I shouldn't be hurling rocks in any case...<< GYBE/Tortoise and their ilk have more in common philosophically with the rather horrible early 70s jazz fusion stuff that existed in parallel to prog (stuff like Colosseum). Not saying they sound anything like that, but conceptually they're smilar - complex grooves, instrumental, jazz influence, etc. Mogwai clearly have roots in post-punk, as do Radiohead, another so-called "nu-prog" band. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:20:54 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT:- VDGG The microphone-vibrating speakers of which you speak were in fact a Hugh Banton speciality:- they were 24" in diameter, and had been made specifically for testing the vibration characteristics of aircraft wings !! Certainly, they made the 'stage furniture' move about at times.........They produced LOW, LOW frequencies down to about 6 Hz or so, which is some way below human hearing, but when he hit those bass-pedals, you certainly felt it........too much of that infrasound, and you throw up, or worse:- if it's loud and intense enough, it can mash up your internals .......:-( kevin eden wrote: Can I add my bit to the prospect of seeing VDGG again next year. As an avid Hammill/VDGG fan since I first heard them in 1974 and then when they reformed in 1975 I saw them on each tour in Manchester. First at UMIST (my friends car got knicked), then at Manchester Poly and finally at the Free Trade Hall. The last time I had the honour of sneaking into the hall as they rehearsed and hearing Hammill warming his vocal chords up without the use of a microphone. He filled the hall with what have been called his stentortonic vocal ability. It was awe inspiring. And the earth literaly moved that night. Hugh Bantons custom made organ delivered such deep notes that Hammills mic stand shuddered off the stage!! I saw the VdG line up at the Poly and then Hammill solo supporting Marillion at the Apollo. That was it until last year when he returned to Manchester at The Lowry. He still made my jaw drop. I agree he is not to everyones taste but he and VDGG are lumped unfairly together (along with King Crimson) in the Prog rock fold. Neither band have used on stage light effects or props or dressed up in silly clothes. They aame on played their stuff and went. Anyway, I hope to be able to see them. I know Charles Snider is flying in for it. As Hammill says, its goona be "serious fun" kevin eden http://www.wireviews.com/wmo/index.html "dreams that money can buy" Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:32:13 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: CCR/John Fogerty......was 'Van der Graaf Generator reform' Aha ! That all makes sense, then. I can recall the CCR split *was* really acrimonious, but never quite knew the why. I seem to recall the other Fogerty (Tom?) was first to bail out, wasn't he ? I think it was he who made a crap single called "Goodbye Mr Media Man" & then disappeared off my radar. Don't think the Fogerty's were even talking via semaphore flags by this time...... As for "Centrefield", I'll have to dig it out & listen. (I got it for a couple of quid when the local record chainstore went bust and had an "everything must go" sale) I hadn't spotted the SPECIFIC 'equivalent / plagiarised' tracks of which you speak, but I just thought the *whole thing* sounded like CCR, which given JF's voice, it would, wouldn't it? On those grounds, You're right to say that this must be one of THE most ridiculous court actions ever launched. MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >>//// Why not? Wasn't it also one John Fogerty that fronted ancient chart-friendly swamp-rockers Creedence Clearwater Revival ? I'm nearly sure he was the singer, with surely one of THE most recognisable voices in pop/rock, but he too was another 'hold-out' against doing stuff from past repertoire:- I don't *think* he ever went near the CCR catalogue, and nor did the rest of the band to my knowledge. Odd, considering the number of records they sold in the late 60's & early 70's.......................<< Fogerty was sued by Saul Zaentz (head of CCR's old label) for self-plagiarisation on his Centerfield solo albu in the mid-80s. Zaentz alleged the songs sounded so much like old CCR songs that his label was due royalties. The case went to court, and Fogerty won - after playing the songs on an acoustic guitar in the witness box! It was a ridiculous court case - Fogerty was essentially being sued for being John Fogerty. Many of the songs on Centerfield do have a Creedence 'twin' (eg 'The old man down the road' = 'Run through the Jungle'; 'I saw it on TV' = 'Have you ever seen the rain') but the court ruled that self-referencing one's own career canot be actionable. The CCR split was extremely acrimonious and I suspect that's why JF won't go back there. Mark Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:31:20 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy]OT:- VDGG Frank Zappa also used very low bass occasionally. I was in the front row of the Birmingham Arena gig on his last proper UK tour (one or two orchestral dates followed a year or so later) and when he flicked some switch or other (that was how it seemed) on a keyboard it felt like you were being kicked in the stomach... Given what Derek says that isn't far from the truth! I'm suprised the military don't use infrasound, if it is that effective - imagine knocked out an opposing army because their organs have all failed. Yuk! Indescriminate as well... Bruno (who'll be in the RFH balcony) - -----Original Message----- From: Derek White [mailto:zak_blakk@yahoo.com] Sent: 03 December 2004 16:21 To: idealcopy Subject: Re: [idealcopy]OT:- VDGG The microphone-vibrating speakers of which you speak were in fact a Hugh Banton speciality:- they were 24" in diameter, and had been made specifically for testing the vibration characteristics of aircraft wings !! Certainly, they made the 'stage furniture' move about at times.........They produced LOW, LOW frequencies down to about 6 Hz or so, which is some way below human hearing, but when he hit those bass-pedals, you certainly felt it........too much of that infrasound, and you throw up, or worse:- if it's loud and intense enough, it can mash up your internals .......:-( ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:46:51 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG In a message dated 02/12/2004 22:15:14 GMT Standard Time, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: Kevin - along with Derek that makes three of us at the 1976 UMIST gig! Loved your description of Hammill sound-checking unamplified. I'll shut up for now. Probably. Another the Keith God Keith I was only sweet 16 then. But I still bought Still Life - Vital & World Record the week they came out.I remember Van Der Graaf released a clutch of albums very quickly to gether. The live album is excellent. Chris - NP Bart's Libertines CDR & Wire Thingies Hey a list would be good .The 15th playing now. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:57:01 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S In a message dated 03/12/2004 00:19:22 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: And so the Wrexham Wrock Hall of Shame gains its second inductee. Winsome Caledonian collective Belle & Sebastian join Dour Sheffield gloomsters the Comsat Angels - - the only bands our Keith doesn't like. ;-) Oh come on Keith.How can you not get The Comsats.Bloody Hell.What did we all fight the Punk rock Wars for ?? NP. The Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds Of Fire (That should get the Bursa back up !) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:59:24 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG In a message dated 03/12/2004 00:28:49 GMT Standard Time, Mark Bursa writes: + It was a special type of fast-drying car spray paint, which the makers were extremely keen to show to the press. They sprayed a car door. It dried really fast. More champagne! It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. If you weren't on drugs I'd think you might be. That is a jolly & a half. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:32:27 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] ot: manhunter movie In a message dated 11/29/04 10:19:47 AM, zak_blakk@yahoo.com writes: > the soundtrack to Micheal Mann's 'Manhunter', the film that got re-cycled > as 'Red Dragon'....... [The original's still the best] > the thing i remember most about this film is that the entire soundtrack (literally, i mean all the sound, not just the music) was so bad i could barely stand to stick with it. i had trouble making out so much of the dialog that i found the whole movie very unenjoyable. of course i do live up to my screenname, but i don't usually have that much trouble hearing movie dialog, especially in the theater. more typically i have to turn up the sound on the tv at home, and then i turn it back down when a loud musical sequence comes in. age of innocence was the worst offender in that department, the dialog was so much lower than the music. can anyone confirm whether the sound recording for manhunter was indeed poor quality or if i just happened to see a bad print? it sounded to me as if all the dialog had been recorded indoors and that there was some reverb that made the outdoor scenes sound strange...but not good strange, just strange...strange and bad. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 21:47:55 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S > Oh come on Keith.How can you not get The Comsats.Bloody Hell.What did we all > fight the Punk rock Wars for ?? Not for some tenth rate Joy Division copyists with a fucking muppet on drums that's for sure!! > NP. The Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds Of Fire (That should get the Bursa back > up !) Or them ; ) K. np Low - a lifetime of temporary relief (or them either!) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 22:04:22 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG > Go on. Someone defend Marillion. I dare ya! Smashing group, ladies and gentlemen. Smashing group. Everything your Comsat Angel fan would look for - originality, good looks and memorable melodies. With the added bonus of a nice range of headbands. That's what I fought the punk wars for! K. np Low - heartbeat (hey back on topic. This is a great cover version, as are the covers of Surfer Girl and Lord Can You Hear Me?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 14:13:45 -0800 From: fernando Subject: [idealcopy] (how s)LOW (can you go) I found their cover of Transmission to be refreshing... soon followed by Bedhead's same idea on Disorder. Just caught them live opening for the Tindersticks in Valencia, and though they have changed a bit, it was still a good show. For some reason, I kept thinking Mo Tucker on drums... as in standing and a couple of things for her to hit. Are these on the recent compilation b-sides and rarities? cheers, - -fernando On Dec 3, 2004, at 2:04 PM, Keith Astbury wrote: > np Low - heartbeat (hey back on topic. This is a great cover version, > as are > the covers of Surfer Girl and Lord Can You Hear Me?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 22:17:19 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: CCR/John Fogerty......was 'Van der Graaf Generator reform' > As for "Centrefield", I'll have to dig it out & listen. (I got it for a couple of quid when the local record chainstore went bust and had an "everything must go" sale) I've never heard Centrefield, but I bought the later Eye of the Zombie many years ago when I saw that cheap. It was dire!! I presumed - wrongly! - as Centrefield got such good reviews that JF was back on form to stay, but how wrong I was. After buying it, I checked out some reviews and found that I was not alone in not rating EOTZ. I can honestly say it's one of the worst albums I've ever heard - and this from a person who adores Cosmo's Factory. K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 22:32:28 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S > > And so the Wrexham Wrock Hall of Shame gains its second inductee. Winsome > > Caledonian collective Belle & Sebastian join Dour Sheffield gloomsters the > > Comsat Angels > > - the only bands our Keith doesn't like. ;-) > > hmmm ... i can't remember on which side he came down in the great > cars/elo/flock of seagulls debate(s) ... I've got a soft spot for ELO - bought Roll Over Beethoven when I was a kid. And there were some other goodies...Ma Ma Ma Belle, Nightrider, I Can't Get You Out Of My Head. Evil Woman. Yeah. Fittingly, I'll give them a Macca-like thumbs up. As for the pair...well I like Drive and I Ran, but that's pretty much it. > dan, unashamed owner of (& even occasional listener to!) multiple discs by > all the above-named bands ... Forgot to mention Dan...I loved your recent email re the horror compilation. LOL! Now where do I find the delectably titled I Fuck The Dead then? I've got to hear that!! K. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 16:49:39 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot: manhunter movie i don't remember any problems hearing the dialogue when i watched it on cable back in '87 or so ... will have to check out the used vhs i picked up awhile back to see if anything's changed, especially now that my own case of tinnitus is observing its 11th anniversary this week or next (since, as noted before, i can date it to the buzzcocks' dallas show in early 12/93). dan > In a message dated 11/29/04 10:19:47 AM, zak_blakk@yahoo.com writes: > > > > the soundtrack to Micheal Mann's 'Manhunter', the film that got re-cycled > > as 'Red Dragon'....... [The original's still the best] > > > the thing i remember most about this film is that the entire soundtrack > (literally, i mean all the sound, not just the music) was so bad i could barely > stand to stick with it. i had trouble making out so much of the dialog that i > found the whole movie very unenjoyable. > > of course i do live up to my screenname, but i don't usually have that much > trouble hearing movie dialog, especially in the theater. more typically i have > to turn up the sound on the tv at home, and then i turn it back down when a > loud musical sequence comes in. age of innocence was the worst offender in that > department, the dialog was so much lower than the music. > > can anyone confirm whether the sound recording for manhunter was indeed poor > quality or if i just happened to see a bad print? it sounded to me as if all > the dialog had been recorded indoors and that there was some reverb that made > the outdoor scenes sound strange...but not good strange, just strange...strange > and bad. > > -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 01:13:12 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] B&S I'm curious Chris - what do the Mahavishnu Orchestra sound like now? I speak as someone who dabbled because more jazz-loving friends than me bought them and I heard them a lot despite never really liking them. Saw them live once too - I recall being pissed off from the word go because John McLaughlin made us observe two minutes silence at the start to get the vibe right. Puh-leese. This really was the jazz fusion stuff Mr Bursa mentioned disparagingly (surprise!) a few posts ago, more so than Colosseum whose live double I have a soft spot for despite not having heard it for 30 years probably (Christ) and who I recall as more rocky than jazzy with few complex grooves. Henry Cow can of course be lumped into the jazz fusion bracket according to Mark's criteria (ignoring the 'horrible' part) and they even shared the political aspect of GYBE - unlike Colosseum who were fronted by Nazi memorabilia collector Chris Farlowe. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of CHRISWIRE@aol.com NP. The Mahavishnu Orchestra - Birds Of Fire (That should get the Bursa back up !) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 20:49:03 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S >>This really was the jazz fusion stuff Mr Bursa mentioned disparagingly (surprise!) a few posts ago, more so than Colosseum whose live double I have a soft spot for despite not having heard it for 30 years probably (Christ) and who I recall as more rocky than jazzy with few complex grooves.<< Sure, McLaughlin is the grand nabob of fusion noodle. I've vague recollections of seeing them on The Old Grey and finding it so utterly removed from my world it might as well have been Opera, or Trad Jazz. Can't imagine I'd enjoy it today somehow! Colosseum I mentioned simply because they were on one of the German TV 'Beat Club' shows (repeated weekly on Bayern TV, and currently up to mid-1971). Grim stuff, though last week's appearance of Can was rather good. >> Henry Cow can of course be lumped into the jazz fusion bracket according to Mark's criteria (ignoring the 'horrible' part) and they even shared the political aspect of GYBE << I suppose they're not a million miles from someone like This Heat, albeit much more mannered. HC are not just about jazzy noodling are they... there's a "content" aspect to their stuff. As for This Heat, Charles Hayward's prog past is well-known, of course. >>- unlike Colosseum who were fronted by Nazi memorabilia collector Chris Farlowe.<< He "just liked the uniforms" presumably. Could have been on Factory! Mark ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 22:05:42 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. did i miss this? from the mekons list -- >>According to a reliable source, Kevin Coyne died Thursday. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 22:29:17 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S > Forgot to mention Dan...I loved your recent email re the horror compilation. > LOL! Now where do I find the delectably titled I Fuck The Dead then? I've > got to hear that!! > > K. the song's title is actually the infinitely more subtle code blue, as found on tsol's debut lp (quite the deathrock masterpiece, in contrast with what they did beforfe & after), dance with me (1981), which i see must've been reissued on cd sometime recently. i think the vinyl is pretty hard to find -- i bought mine off the band for something like $4 after showing up for their fall of '81 gig in phoenix at the usual hour for the venue in question (normally a wrestling arena ... the bands -- i saw all sorts of u.s. hardcore bands in the early '80s there but couldn't make it to see snakefinger, alas -- played in the ring) only to find that (i guess) because it was a sunday night, things had started early & they were about 3 songs from finishing up. *sigh* unlike other versions of their lineup that i'm familiar with, i remember they had a 2nd guitarist who was either a full-on (full-*off*?) midget or pretty close to it. must pursue that on the punk77 list, where i post every half-decade or so these days ... dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 08:52:27 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. Taken from http://www.kevincoyne.de/News.htm Dear Friends, Kevin died on Thursday morning, 2nd December 2004. The divine service - last party - takes place on Monday, 13th December 2004, at 12.30 h, Friedenskirche, Am Palmplatz, N|rnberg, Germany The funeral takes place on Monday, 13th December 2004, at 14.00 h, St. Johannis Friedhof, N|rnberg, Germany Only saw him once, at the Thekla in Bristol a few years ago. Funny and moving. A real loss. Bruno Subject: [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. did i miss this? from the mekons list -- >>According to a reliable source, Kevin Coyne died Thursday. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2004 09:26:47 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. A figure indelibly associated with Peel in my mind as that was the only place I ever heard him and Peel used to play him a lot on the early 70s (esp, House on the Hill and Marjory Razorblade, both of which I can conjure up in the memory clearly now). I never bought anything and never saw him live but he was a singular figure and it's sad to hear he's gone. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Clements, Bruno - BUP Sent: 04 December 2004 08:52 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: RE: [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. Taken from http://www.kevincoyne.de/News.htm Dear Friends, Kevin died on Thursday morning, 2nd December 2004. The divine service - last party - takes place on Monday, 13th December 2004, at 12.30 h, Friedenskirche, Am Palmplatz, N|rnberg, Germany The funeral takes place on Monday, 13th December 2004, at 14.00 h, St. Johannis Friedhof, N|rnberg, Germany Only saw him once, at the Thekla in Bristol a few years ago. Funny and moving. A real loss. Bruno Subject: [idealcopy] kevin coyne r.i.p. did i miss this? from the mekons list -- >>According to a reliable source, Kevin Coyne died Thursday. ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #349 *******************************