From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #348 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, December 3 2004 Volume 07 : Number 348 Today's Subjects: ----------------- FW: [idealcopy] OT: Van der Graaf Genarator reform [Alistair Tear ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Van der Graaf Genarator reform ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] off topic: Minimal Man re-issues... [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG [Rex Broome ] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] The Fall ["Keith Astbury" ] RE: [idealcopy] VDGG ["Keith Knight" ] [idealcopy] Fw: blue monday owners club ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] B&S [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] VDGG [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] B&S ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] The Fall [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Fw: blue monday owners club [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] Fw: blue monday owners club Attn Ari [Monochromatic ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:06:25 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: FW: [idealcopy] OT: Van der Graaf Genarator reform AT Keith speculated... // I suspect he and I are the only people here who //have seem them live and know how inapposite that comparison is. I saw them at the Lyceum in 1969 or '70, IIRC the support was 'Audience' and at the Marquee in 1978. (the gig which was released as the live album 'Vital') I used to know Hugh Banton's brother, Alistair who is credited for singing backing vocals on, I think, H to He In the middling seventies I thought Chameleon in the Shadow of Night the Silent Corner & the empty stage, Godbluff and Still Life were the very dog's gonads Lucky for fans that a reunion is possible given that Peter Hammil had a massive heart attack earlier this year... A ************************************************************************* The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London Street Management hereby excludes any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this e-mail and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify postmaster@Streetmanagement.org.uk. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 02:27:40 -0800 (PST) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] VDGG Can I add my bit to the prospect of seeing VDGG again next year. As an avid Hammill/VDGG fan since I first heard them in 1974 and then when they reformed in 1975 I saw them on each tour in Manchester. First at UMIST (my friends car got knicked), then at Manchester Poly and finally at the Free Trade Hall. The last time I had the honour of sneaking into the hall as they rehearsed and hearing Hammill warming his vocal chords up without the use of a microphone. He filled the hall with what have been called his stentortonic vocal ability. It was awe inspiring. And the earth literaly moved that night. Hugh Bantons custom made organ delivered such deep notes that Hammills mic stand shuddered off the stage!! I saw the VdG line up at the Poly and then Hammill solo supporting Marillion at the Apollo. That was it until last year when he returned to Manchester at The Lowry. He still made my jaw drop. I agree he is not to everyones taste but he and VDGG are lumped unfairly together (along with King Crimson) in the Prog rock fold. Neither band have used on stage light effects or props or dressed up in silly clothes. They aame on played their stuff and went. Anyway, I hope to be able to see them. I know Charles Snider is flying in for it. As Hammill says, its goona be "serious fun" kevin eden http://www.wireviews.com/wmo/index.html "dreams that money can buy" Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Get it on your mobile phone. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 12:38:49 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Van der Graaf Genarator reform > Lucky for fans that a reunion is possible given > that Peter Hammil had a massive heart attack > earlier this year... > > A Come on, A. They'd have to be better if they reformed without him ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:36:16 +0000 From: near_0@comcast.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG Kevin wrote: > he and VDGG are lumped unfairly together (along with King Crimson) in the Prog rock fold. Neither band have used on stage light effects or >props or dressed up in silly clothes. As I recall, Pete Sinfield got "lighting" credits in the early KC days; and latterly, some of Tony Levin's sartorial choices were less than serious. Pretty proggy? BillE __..--=-=*|/'..'\|*=-=---..__ home.comcast.net/~near_0/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:11:12 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Van der Graaf Generator reform >>//// Why not? Wasn't it also one John Fogerty that fronted ancient chart-friendly swamp-rockers Creedence Clearwater Revival ? I'm nearly sure he was the singer, with surely one of THE most recognisable voices in pop/rock, but he too was another 'hold-out' against doing stuff from past repertoire:- I don't *think* he ever went near the CCR catalogue, and nor did the rest of the band to my knowledge. Odd, considering the number of records they sold in the late 60's & early 70's.......................<< Fogerty was sued by Saul Zaentz (head of CCR's old label) for self-plagiarisation on his Centerfield solo albu in the mid-80s. Zaentz alleged the songs sounded so much like old CCR songs that his label was due royalties. The case went to court, and Fogerty won - after playing the songs on an acoustic guitar in the witness box! It was a ridiculous court case - Fogerty was essentially being sued for being John Fogerty. Many of the songs on Centerfield do have a Creedence 'twin' (eg 'The old man down the road' = 'Run through the Jungle'; 'I saw it on TV' = 'Have you ever seen the rain') but the court ruled that self-referencing one's own career canot be actionable. The CCR split was extremely acrimonious and I suspect that's why JF won't go back there. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:41:26 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG >> he and VDGG are lumped unfairly together (along with King Crimson) in the Prog rock fold. Neither band have used on stage light effects or >props or dressed up in silly clothes. << Since when have stage lighting & silly clothes been the only criteria for progdom? How about: Endless, flashy noodling 'musicianship' Fey whimsical lyrics Use of odd time signatures (eg 15/37) 38-minute mellotron/moog/hammond solos Songs structured as mini-symphonies, played in chromatic modal scales Use of the flute Elf/Goblin content Plummy-voiced ever-so-English singers Every album a concept. Preferably at least a double. An utterly shit band name. Essence of Goat Album covers in a Roger Dean stylee 987-piece drumkits inclding at least one large gong. To be used fulsomely in drummer's 54-minute solo spot. Double, preferably triple-necked guitars. Never, ever releasing a single. etc etc... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 14:38:12 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 08:41:26AM -0500, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: [prog] > Fey whimsical lyrics > Use of the flute > Plummy-voiced ever-so-English[1] singers > An utterly shit band name. Come in Belle and Sebastian, your time is up. - - A [1] as close as you can get while being Scots, anyway. - -- Dept of Earth Sciences, Univ. Cambridge ::: http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk ::: http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ Random Walk, 10pm Wednesdays, CUR1350 ::: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:48:16 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG > Fey whimsical lyrics > Use of the flute > Plummy-voiced ever-so-English[1] singers > An utterly shit band name. Come in Belle and Sebastian, your time is up. Aw, you'll make them cry down the fronts of their Hello Kitty anoraks... Sadly they fail the prog test due to low Mellotron count, and the notable lack of a design contract for R. Dean esq. That and the fact that they have a sense of humour ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 10:28:32 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] off topic: Minimal Man re-issues... i believe Dan and a few others were fans of Minimal Man....looks like good news eh? Robert MINIMAL MAN - The Shroud Of First in a CD reissue programme of Minimal Man, (aka cult underground artist Patrick Miller), who recorded six remarkable albums before his untimely death in December 2003. 'The Shroud Of' album was originally released by Subterranean Records in 1981, when the core band comprised Miller together with Andrew Baumer and Lliam Hart. Guest musicians include Tuxedomoon members Steven Brown and Michael Belfer. The album serves up thirteen slices of powerful rock n' roll, electronics and black humour, together with generous side orders of isolation, insecurity and terror. Enjoy! The CD has been digitally remastered to include five equally rare bonus tracks, taken from the singles Two Little Skeletons and He Who Falls, the latter recorded live at the legendary Deaf Club in San Francisco in September 1979. Also featured is the extended compilation-only track Shower Sequence. The new CD has been digitally remastered and runs for over 60 minutes. The booklet includes a detailed Miller biography, as well as examples of his unique visual art. Career Precis: Formed by Patrick Miller in San Francisco in 1979, Minimal Man cut two albums of dark, industrial punk rock before Miller relocated to Europe in 1985, where he continued as a prolific creator of music and visual art, and as a collaborator with Tuxedomoon. His four European albums are Sex With God, Slave Lullabyes, Hunger Is All She Has Ever Known and Pure. Passionate and volatile, Miller returned to California in the 1990s, and died at home on 14 December 2003. on Boutique ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:32:47 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG > Come in Belle and Sebastian, your time is up. > > Aw, you'll make them cry down the fronts of their Hello Kitty anoraks... > > Sadly they fail the prog test due to low Mellotron count, and the notable > lack of a design contract for R. Dean esq. I think that's because they have an exclusive album art contract with whoever did every Smith sleeve ever (or someone whose style is utterly indistinguishable). - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 15:14:51 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG In a message dated 02/12/2004 13:42:12 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: 987-piece drumkits inclding at least one large gong. To be used fulsomely in drummer's 54-minute solo spot. Double, preferably triple-necked guitars. Never, ever releasing a single. etc etc... Mark Don't you just miss that so badly... No really ! Think of the great Camel guitar solos. On the other hand those wanky Jon Anderson lyrics. Think of those great Genesis basslines. On the other hand watching Asia vs paint drying.... There's good & bad in everything. And then there's Marillion !!! Chris NP The Vines - Winning Days NR The Killers - Hot Fuss ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 21:25:16 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG > Come in Belle and Sebastian, your time is up. LOL! > Aw, you'll make them cry down the fronts of their Hello Kitty anoraks... > > Sadly they fail the prog test due to low Mellotron count, and the notable > lack of a design contract for R. Dean esq. That and the fact that they have a > sense of humour ;-) > > Mark They're still shit though!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:04:01 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] The Fall Saw the Fall last night in Manchester with some other members of the IC rabble - - and they were *really* good. I'd seen them a couple of times before - once in the late 90's and another time way back in the mid-80's, but I thought this was probably the best I'd seen them, though Mark B who has been to more Fall gigs than some of their current members will disagree with me there. But whatever, the new band are really tight. The set included some great new stuff I didn't know (I haven't bought anything since The Unutterable and that was my first for a few years) and a cover of The Move's classic I Can Hear The Grass Grow, which was amazingly melodic for The Fall - until Mark E opened his big gob. Somewhere Roy Wood clutches his heart. Or earplugs! The encore was great too - White Lighning followed by the superb glitterstomp that is Big New Prinz. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:13:25 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] VDGG I knew we'd get a Bursa anti-prog rant if we went on long enough! And I have probably gone on long enough for now. Although it's given me a lot of pleasure to see VdGG in the subject line for so long and to find some old fans coming out of the closet. Alistair - I STILL think those albums are the dog's gonads. Kevin - along with Derek that makes three of us at the 1976 UMIST gig! Loved your description of Hammill sound-checking unamplified. I'll shut up for now. Probably. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of MarkBursa@aol.com Sent: 02 December 2004 13:41 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG >> he and VDGG are lumped unfairly together (along with King Crimson) in the Prog rock fold. Neither band have used on stage light effects or >props or dressed up in silly clothes. << Since when have stage lighting & silly clothes been the only criteria for progdom? How about: Endless, flashy noodling 'musicianship' Fey whimsical lyrics Use of odd time signatures (eg 15/37) 38-minute mellotron/moog/hammond solos Songs structured as mini-symphonies, played in chromatic modal scales Use of the flute Elf/Goblin content Plummy-voiced ever-so-English singers Every album a concept. Preferably at least a double. An utterly shit band name. Essence of Goat Album covers in a Roger Dean stylee 987-piece drumkits inclding at least one large gong. To be used fulsomely in drummer's 54-minute solo spot. Double, preferably triple-necked guitars. Never, ever releasing a single. etc etc... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 22:32:03 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] Fw: blue monday owners club Do you own an original 12" of "Blue Monday" by New Order? (Cat No.FAC 73)=20 Do you want to be part of this ongoing artwork?=20 http://www.bluemondayownersclub.com/=20 [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of blue monday owners club.url] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:20:12 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Fall >>Saw the Fall last night in Manchester with some other members of the IC rabble - - and they were *really* good. I'd seen them a couple of times before - once in the late 90's and another time way back in the mid-80's, but I thought this was probably the best I'd seen them, though Mark B who has been to more Fall gigs than some of their current members will disagree with me there. But whatever, the new band are really tight.<< They're certainly very, very tight now - the revolving door policy of late has seen a couple of people rejoin so most of the band are now well drilled in the MES way. The 'cool' Manc crowd didn't help though - hence only one, perfunctory, encore. Previous time I saw them (in Stourbridge, West Mids, earlier this year) a much rowdier crowd of hardcore Fall types got treated to about 6 encores (many of which featured vocals performed from the dressing room by a still-quite-incapacitated Mark E. >>The set included some great new stuff I didn't know (I haven't bought anything since The Unutterable and that was my first for a few years)<< Three or four really good new ones, plus stuff mainly off the last album. They would seem o be on a roll.... >> and a cover of The Move's classic I Can Hear The Grass Grow, which was amazingly melodic for The Fall - until Mark E opened his big gob. Somewhere Roy Wood clutches his heart. Or earplugs! The encore was great too - White Lighning followed by the superb glitterstomp that is Big New Prinz.<< It's an improvement over the previous novelty cover - Walk like a man by Frankie Valli & the fourseasons ...of course in the early '90s Robert Lloyd fronted a band called the New Four Seasons. But before than he was in the Nightingales. And less than 24 hours after seeing the Fall in Manchester the Bursa jamwagon fetched up in Notting Hill to see... that very band! They were performing at Alan McGee's 'Death Disco' club - a weedy attempt to create the vibe of Warhol's factory in Notting Hill. Lots of 'beautiful people' who all fucked off to the bogs to take some more heroin after about 2 'gales songs, leaving about 30 variously fat, old, bald, grey punkers, including two blokes who had flown specially from Switzerland to see them. Bless. Also present - Rob Simmons out of the Subway Sect, a fellow traveller in unfair punk loserdom. Shambolic organisation meant a truncated 'gales set (so the DJ could play some more Jasmine Minks records, presumably) which meant by way of protest we were treated to a quality - and lengthy - version of the Prefects' Going through the motions. Mr Lloyd swigging from onstage bottle of Jamesons between songs. Excellent! BTW, buy a copy of the 'gales reissued Pigs on Purpose album. If Cherry Red sell enough, they'll reissue Hysterics, the Nightingales supreme recorded moment. This has been a public broadcast on behalf of bands that are as far removed from prog as you can get! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:49:39 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG > > Come in Belle and Sebastian, your time is up. > > LOL! > > > Aw, you'll make them cry down the fronts of their Hello Kitty anoraks... > > > > Sadly they fail the prog test due to low Mellotron count, and the notable > > lack of a design contract for R. Dean esq. That and the fact that they > have a > > sense of humour ;-) they also release singles fairly often ... > > > > Mark > > They're still shit though!! not even close ... the albums blend together for me, in part because i obtained them out of order, but the first couple or 3 are fairly brimming with memorable tunes & lyrics. dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:16:39 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S >>They're still shit though!!<< And so the Wrexham Wrock Hall of Shame gains its second inductee. Winsome Caledonian collective Belle & Sebastian join Dour Sheffield gloomsters the Comsat Angels - - the only bands our Keith doesn't like. ;-) Are B&S shit? Well, I have to disagree. Sure, they're fey and weedy. Yet in such an extreme way. They plough the furrow of C86 wimpsomeness so single-mindedly that the Sarah Records back catalogue starts to resemble the collected works of GG Allin. They're impervious to fashion. Smacked-out grungers, coke-snorting britpoppers, crack-addled London scenesters come and go, but for B&S it's 1986 and they're worried they'll not get a good night's sleep if they have too much Irn Bru. The sleeves, the super 8 videos, the consistency is really admirable - and on top of that there's a whole heap of really good songs in there - considering the volume of material they release, the strike rate is pretty good. It's art rock, but not as we know it! And Andrew, it's probably not a flute. It'll be a descant recorder. Maximum Hello Kitty points ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:28:49 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] VDGG >>Don't you just miss that so badly... No really ! Think of the great Camel guitar solos.<< Up there with the great Stephen Hawking dance routines! >>On the other hand those wanky Jon Anderson lyrics. Think of those great Genesis basslines.<< Use of the Shergold Marathon 6-string bass nearly earns a reprieve... but no. They must die. >>On the other hand watching Asia vs paint drying.... There's good & bad in everything.<< Now I've no experience of Asia live, but I was once flown to Germany by private plane, and wined and dined in a 5-star hotel *expressly* to watch paint dry+. My paint-drying-observation experience is therefore a good one, and must therefore be better than a band containing half of Yes and the Buggles. >>And then there's Marillion !!!<< Go on. Someone defend Marillion. I dare ya! Mark + It was a special type of fast-drying car spray paint, which the makers were extremely keen to show to the press. They sprayed a car door. It dried really fast. More champagne! It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 18:45:46 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S > >>They're still shit though!!<< > > And so the Wrexham Wrock Hall of Shame gains its second inductee. Winsome > Caledonian collective Belle & Sebastian join Dour Sheffield gloomsters the > Comsat Angels > - the only bands our Keith doesn't like. ;-) hmmm ... i can't remember on which side he came down in the great cars/elo/flock of seagulls debate(s) ... dan, unashamed owner of (& even occasional listener to!) multiple discs by all the above-named bands ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 19:52:39 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Fall Some photos from the Bierkeller _http://www.halfcutpublications.com/fall.html_ (http://www.halfcutpublications.com/fall.html) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 17:06:44 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fw: blue monday owners club server not found.Ari - --- Keith Astbury wrote: > Do you own an original 12" of "Blue Monday" by New > Order? > (Cat No.FAC 73)=20 > > Do you want to be part of this ongoing artwork?=20 > > > http://www.bluemondayownersclub.com/=20 > > [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type > application/octet-stream which had a name of blue > monday owners club.url] > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage less. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2004 20:13:16 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S >>hmmm ... i can't remember on which side he came down in the great cars/elo/flock of seagulls debate(s) ... dan, unashamed owner of (& even occasional listener to!) multiple discs by all the above-named bands ...<< My guess is he likes them all ;-) Personally I'd lock 'em all in a room and form a supergroup called A Flock of Electric Cars. The resulting cacophony could only be an improvement ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 02:15:40 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] B&S On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 07:16:39PM -0500, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > britpoppers, crack-addled London scenesters come and go, but for B&S > it's 1986 and they're worried they'll not get a good night's sleep > if they have too much Irn Bru. You won't, incidentally. (Voice of experience here.) > The sleeves, the super 8 videos, the consistency is really > admirable - and on top of that there's a whole heap of really > good songs in there - considering the volume of material they > release, the strike rate is pretty good. It's art rock, but not > as we know it! I have no particular problem at all with B+S, it just amused me greatly to call them prog (which they're really in many ways the antithesis of - arty and pretentious, but at the other extreme of the same axis...) > And Andrew, it's probably not a flute. It'll be a descant recorder. Maximum > Hello Kitty points ;-) Fair point, well made. :-) Given that I'm into both Mogwai/gy!be/ExITS style post rock and ambient/IDMish electronica, both of which definitely stare the prospect of being the New Prog in the face, I shouldn't be hurling rocks in any case... - - A - -- Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ Programme Controller, CUR1350 http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk Random Walk ::: Wednesday, 10pm ::: cur1350.co.uk ::: is this music? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2004 03:23:44 +0000 (GMT) From: Monochromatic Man Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fw: blue monday owners club Attn Ari Ari, try this: http://www.bluemondayownersclub.com --- Ari wrote: > server not found.Ari > --- Keith Astbury > wrote: > > > Do you own an original 12" of "Blue Monday" by New > > Order? > > (Cat No.FAC 73)=20 > > > > Do you want to be part of this ongoing artwork?=20 > > > > > > http://www.bluemondayownersclub.com/=20 > > > > [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type > > application/octet-stream which had a name of blue > > monday owners club.url] > > > > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Mail - 250MB free storage. Do more. Manage > less. > http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250 > ___________________________________________________________ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #348 *******************************