From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #323 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, November 7 2004 Volume 07 : Number 323 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? [Tisbili@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? [Derek White ] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? ["j.hobson" ] [idealcopy] HMmmmmmmmmmmmm......... [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] nationwide voting patterns ... ["dan bailey" I can never understand why people want to > vote a stupid man into power. > Because simplicity is an appealing concept. Some people cannot handle nuance or ambiguity or accept the fact that the world is a complex place. Bush's appeal is to these people. His world view is simple. His approach to governance is simple: Everything is black and white. Detailed analysis is neither required nor appreciated. Those who engage in it are effete smug elitists. Take an uninformed position based on simplistic views and adhere to it no matter what. That's strong decisive leadership in today's America. That's how 59 million.... billE =-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 06:16:56 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? A considered piece, well worth a response.......... Tisbili@aol.com wrote: here's how... America is a funny place right now. Democracy can be imposed at gunpoint, intelligence is dumb, war is security, repression is freedom............... ..........This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they could be turned out, would be the deciding factor............. Mr. Rove understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution. >>>> I despair, sometimes, I *really* do. How about the small matter of *evidence*:- you know, fossil record, laws of physics, etc. Doesn't any *sane* person have to concede that thermodynamics alone says the world could not possibly have gone from molten goo to 'garden of eden' in 7 days? And that our current bunch of walking, slithering , crawling and flying fauna didn't suddenly appear, but came about by step changes over squillions of years from stuff a-floatin' in the oceans?? There's none so blind as those who will not see............. I've always found it utterly paradoxical that a country that's at the forefront of *so* much technical and scientific endeavour, and can plonk men & material on other celestial bodies has *such* a preponderance of blinkered, ill-educated , mule-headed stubborn blind faith in an entity called 'God' when there isn't one single scintilla of evidence for it....and a whole cartload against. That notwithstanding, should I ever be proved wrong and 'god' does exist, then I'd *really* like to have a word in his ear, as (s)he's clearly a psycho with a sick, sick sense of humour..... Over here, religion has largely been consigned to our ignorant past, before we had any other explanations of natural phenomena. It's been thrown in the same dustbin of superstition as the tooth fairy, santa claus and the bogey man. Churches are closing left, right, and centre because nobody goes in enough numbers anymore to keep the leaking roofs patched up. I'd say that's moving in the correct direction of secular humanism. Broadly the same all over Europe, from what I see. Long-term decline in the 'faithful'. The obvious exception is Islam, which appears to be in developmental terms, having it's medievel phase just now. But it'll pass........ >This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in which William >Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept of evolution was discredited. >Disillusionment with that decision led many evangelicals to withdraw from direct >engagement in politics.... Indeed so. In fact, many of the evangelical christian churches specifically admonished their 'flocks' not to have any truck with politics, as it was all the devil's work. The sub-text is, they'd *really* like to go back 4 or 5 hundred years, when the Church held all the answers:-and the power. What's swung it for the Republican right in recent years has been the volte-face in these faith groups:- they now seem to be saying "Vote for god-fearin' men" Hell, for long enough, you couldn't even read the Bible youself, as even if you were one of the literate few, the darn thing was in Latin. So you had to rely on the clergy to translate, intercede, and be the gatekeeper to god's trove of secret and arcane knowledge. For a financial consideration, of course............ >Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth >than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation? Personally, I don't think so, for the reasons of 'selective blindness' outlined above. >America, the first real democracy in history, Oh really? Based on what ? Universal suffrage? Think you may find a lot of black people South of Mason-Dixon may not agree...........not that I'm claiming the mantle for the UK:- women didn't get to vote until the 1920's...................... >America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of Enlightenment values - >critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. ...................Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's >supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11. >The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the fundamentalism of the >American electorate. It is not what they had experienced from this country in the past. >In fact, we now resemble those nations less than we do our putative enemies. You're entirely right there. I didn't see this 'christian fundamentalism' coming at all, at least so far as systems of government were concerned: I knew it existed, of course, having seen it manifested at first hand (There's an American-staffed Baptist Mission/'Teaching Centre called Capernwray Hall, about 25 miles from where I live, and I once made a visit there. Many of it's 'students' are from your side of the pond too, and I was frankly amazed at the level of religious *fervour* I found there. Only then , it was more 'happy-clappy' than it was the unyeilding, old-testament wrath in character) The thing is, I guess I *thought* that they were a much smaller constituency than they actually are. Seems they all came out to vote this time. And they want some PAYBACK. > Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, religious intolerance, >fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. >We find it in the Muslim world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. >Americans wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so single-minded, >so impervious to international appeals. They fear jihad, no matter whose zeal is being >expressed. ... President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and abroad, with real respect. In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. His helpers are also his keepers. The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment. /////// I can't disagree with any of that last paragraph:- seems like a pretty fair and accurate summing-up to me. The intense desire to stuff democracy and good'ol Christian values down the world's throat, whether they want it or not, is frankly worrying and arrogant in the extreme. In some cases it betrays a complete ignorance of what makes some cultures so radically different in the way that they do things, but hey, they can have it anyway. So it's full steam ahead the unfettered free market and godly democracy. (Which , with these values in place, makes it easier to then move in and buy up all a country's resources on the 'free market, backed by a mostly bogus 'mandate') 'The one thing that gives me hope that this course the US has embarked upon, is people like yourself, and all the other 56,000,000 who have seen through the B/S, and are bent on changing direction at the earliest opportunity. The only shame is that it's going to be another four years, during which time a lot of people are going to wind up dead around the world for no reason. On the TV news at lunchtime, there was an interveiw with a US Marine officer , holed up outside Fallujah, Iraq, where the offensive is about to kick off. He said (and I quote):- "For the past months [we] have been fighting a faceless enemy. But he's in [Fallujah], and he *does* have a face. And that face is Satan's" When people like that have their finger on the trigger, we're in trouble, I fear..... Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 06:42:46 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Derek you were......... ...........right on the button.a curse on religion,all religion.wake up and smell the roses people before we all kill each other in the name of some faceless fuckin god. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 15:24:24 -0000 From: "j.hobson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? Coming from Belfast, I have no difficulty understanding when religious fervour mixed with politics produces undesirable results. Come to think of it, many US voters have some shade of green or orange in the genes so none of it surprises me. However, there is a positive. The turnout was huge and maybe that long period in which the public gave up politics is over. At last their are viewpoints again. Maybe History hasn't ended after all. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 20:19:44 GMT From: "P J Kane" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul Pt. 700 and a half............... << I have called a meeting of some of my friends and clients for tomorrow morning to debate the begining of a new political party,it's time the disenfranchised Democrats and Republicans of this country took it back from the rich elite,to think that Bush and Kerry were in the same elite club at school should put in perspective what's gone wrong here,we are no longer a democracy,we are a duocracy,a two party system keeping each other in power. Time to move on. >> interesting Ari. keep us informed of what goes on with this.... PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 01:03:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Monochromatic Man Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul Pt. 700 and a half............... Ari, You can count me in. Billy --- P J Kane wrote: > << I have called a meeting of some of my friends and > clients for tomorrow morning to debate the begining > of a new political party,it's time the > disenfranchised Democrats and Republicans of this > country took it back from the rich elite,to think > that Bush and Kerry were in the same elite club at > school should put in perspective what's gone wrong > here,we are no longer a democracy,we are a > duocracy,a two party system keeping each other in > power. Time to move on. >> > > interesting Ari. keep us informed of what goes on > with this.... > > PJK > > please don't hate me because i can't type..... > --- > All the cool kids are doing it: > HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 02:07:39 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA > IBTABA is one of my favorite Wire albums. But it's not the first I > heard - that would be Ideal Copy. Somewhere in the historical SMOE.org > archives, I once compiled a ranked list of Wire albums, but I have no > idea how to search for it! Wonder if my tastes now are the same as > then? Can't give you the exact date, Paul, but my email with the results was 7/5/2002 (phew! that went quick!!), so I guess it would be sometime in April. For the new folk here, we each voted for our top 10 Wire/Wire related LP's and the results were as follows... 1. 154 2. CHAIRS MISSING 3. A BELL IS A CUP. 4. IDEAL COPY 5. PINK FLAG 6. IT'S BEGINNING TO & BACK AGAIN 7. FIRST LETTER 8. A-Z 9. DOME 1 10.NOT TO So I guess a fair few of us liked IBTABA then. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:05:02 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] HMmmmmmmmmmmmm......... Kerry WON? http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won_.php International observers: http://tinyurl.com/4tgva http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/11/03/russianobserver.shtml Nice graphic: http://img103.exs.cx/img103/4526/exit_poll.gif Votergate the movie: http://snipurl.com/aevh Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 18:10:40 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA Keith,7/5/02 in U.S.A is July 5 2002,so it woulda bin June.............Ari - --- Keith Astbury wrote: > > IBTABA is one of my favorite Wire albums. But > it's not the first I > > heard - that would be Ideal Copy. Somewhere in > the historical SMOE.org > > archives, I once compiled a ranked list of Wire > albums, but I have no > > idea how to search for it! Wonder if my tastes > now are the same as > > then? > > Can't give you the exact date, Paul, but my email > with the results was > 7/5/2002 (phew! that went quick!!), so I guess it > would be sometime in > April. > > For the new folk here, we each voted for our top 10 > Wire/Wire related LP's > and the results were as follows... > > 1. 154 > > 2. CHAIRS MISSING > > 3. A BELL IS A CUP. > > 4. IDEAL COPY > > 5. PINK FLAG > > 6. IT'S BEGINNING TO & BACK AGAIN > > 7. FIRST LETTER > > 8. A-Z > > 9. DOME 1 > > 10.NOT TO > > > So I guess a fair few of us liked IBTABA then. > > Keith > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 02:27:47 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA No I meant it in real money. I would make some joke about you lot doing things back to front, but in the light of the recent election I think you can work that one out for yerselves ; ) > Keith,7/5/02 in U.S.A is July 5 2002,so it woulda bin > June.............Ari > --- Keith Astbury > wrote: > > > Can't give you the exact date, Paul, but my email > > with the results was > > 7/5/2002 (phew! that went quick!!), so I guess it > > would be sometime in > > April. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 23:24:32 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: [idealcopy] nationwide voting patterns ... by county, as shown at http://www.electoral-vote.com, indicate that the backward county i'm from in extreme sw arkansas, with a whopping 6,000 residents or so & *maybe* 3 traffic lights (none in my hometown, of course), is the only place i've ever resided that i'm not ashamed to have lived in. bizarre. dan ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #323 *******************************