From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #321 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, November 5 2004 Volume 07 : Number 321 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Miles wrote............ [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] Fuck:,George wins.................. [Ari ] [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? [Tisbili@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Wire ringtones? [Rex Broome ] Re: [idealcopy] Wire ringtones? [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] RE: The Road ahead is quite uncertain...Interpol [Rex Bro] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Dear Paul [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: The Road ahead is quiteuncertain...Interpol [Tisbili@] Re: [idealcopy] RE: The Road ahead is quiteuncertain...Interpol [Rex Broo] RE: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? ["Keith Knight" ] [idealcopy] Aaron sed.(here I go agin') [Ari ] RE: [idealcopy] IBTABA ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? [Rex Broome ] RE: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V7 #320 ["Keith Knight" Subject: [idealcopy] Miles wrote............ >>I can't agree with my fellow "red stater"'s political views (though I found them much more reasonably and calmly expressed than, well, almost every other Bush supporter),<< Perhaps,Miles,for the sake of our international members,you should explain the 'Red state Blue state' thingy................Ari (forever 'Red' politically,sorry Uri) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 02:27:24 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fuck:,George wins.................. Friend of mine sent an email in which he's asking all Democrats to talk/reason at least one Republican into voting Democrat in four years time.......better start right now.Ari - --- dan bailey wrote: > > Next time we'll just have to try harder and pick a > > candidate that people actually like. > > maybe even one who doesn't hail from the same > hoity-toity richboy yale > secret society as his opponent! talk about having > the reality of lack of > real choice rubbed in one's face by the ruling class > ... > > dan > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:27:58 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: The Road ahead is quite uncertain...Interpol >Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 01:16:40 -0600 >From: Miles Goosens >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... > >In fact, the only glitch in their performance was Paul Banks' hat, which, >combined with him growing out his blonde hair in back, gave him a >distressingly Kid Rock-like appearance. > Yes, the top hat that Paul Banks wore was a bit too Tim Burton-esque and seemed comically over-the-top. He wore the same top hat at the 99X Live X listening party the night before. My favorite member of Interpol, Carlos D., though, was the epitome of coolness throughout the night. He has the Peter Hook bass moves down quite well. Last night was the fifth time that I've seen Interpol in concert. I probably sound like a teenager when I say this, but the band has gotten better every time that I've seen them. Last night, they were a force of nature. "Not Even Jail" was a highlight, as was "Roland" at the end of the set and the second encore, "Stella Was A Diver...". Miles, I meant to go upstairs to talk some more after the opening sets, but got sidetracked after I ran into a group of friends from the Pixies show (no, not the big hair dude and his girlfriend, but a different group of people entirely...lol). I'm glad that y'all enjoyed the show, though. The Roxy is one of my favorite venues in Atlanta, along with Variety Playhouse. I was particularly impressed by the opening set from On!Air!Library!. I purchased their debut album after the gig and it sounded quite excellent during my work commute this morning. Jason _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:56:00 -0000 From: "Wilson, Paul" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V7 #320 > ...no evidence whatsoever that Iraq played at part in 9/11, > of course, but there has been a relationship between > Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. This is amazing! How could there possibly be links between Al Qaeda and Saddam BEFORE 9/11? Al Qaeda wasn't in existence before 9/11! Al Qaeda isn't really a group - it was invented by the US in order to put Osama on trial (he had to be the head of an organisation for the US to do this, in his absence). Yet another case of the American people being hoodwinked by their media. This is the major problem with how Americans see world events, in general - they are deliberately being kept in the dark. You really ought to try to get a more balanced view of things. Try reading the Aljazeera news website for a start. Try to get hold of some documentaries produced by reputable people OUTSIDE America. Try listening to the other side! http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage Read the transcript of Osama's last speech - the full transcript, not edited bits that you might get fed by your media. As for UN being weak being it doesn't enforce UN resolutions - well, which country has ignored more UN resolutions that any other? (Sits back whilst Americans try to work it out!) There is hatred towards America. What amazes me is that Americans continually seem to be unable to grasp the fact that this hatred comes BECAUSE of its governments actions. If someone doesn't like you, perhaps the first question you should ask is "What have I done wrong?" > A wise man once said, > "You can't help the poor by destroying the rich." True, but you can help the poor by closing the gap. Giving big tax cuts to the wealthy just makes the gap grow wider. > I'm largely opposed to gun control legislation, though. Yeah, well that's to be expected. Personally, I believe anyone who owns a gun is a legitimate target themselves! It's just a shame that freedom fighters around the world aren't able to target the people they should be targeting. I could go on, but fear my views would end up with me being thrown off this list! Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:09:11 EST From: Tisbili@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] fGeorge In a message dated 11/5/2004 5:42:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > Friend of mine sent an email in which he's asking all > Democrats to talk/reason at least one Republican into > voting Democrat in four years time.......better start > right now. Don't waste your breath. Very few people, dem or reep, change their minds. Look at W: Phony "preemptive strike" foreign policy, thousands dead, more dying all the time; and more to come [watch out Iran] largest deficit in history, billions more going to waste. If that doesn't lead people to change their minds, nothing will. As other threads have pointed out, there is no rational policy basis for backing the guy, apart from the strict adherence to federal tax cutting, which is of course a phony savings, because the tax burden is just downshifted to state or local municiplaities. How many pizza kits, peanut brittle or wrapping paper have you bought so your school can have textbooks? It's now $5 at the highway tollbooths in my state. THESE ARE TAX CUTS AT WORK. Having said all of that, though, Kerry's loss was based on two things: a 5-10% shift of female voters to W; and Karl Rove's targeted efforts at the Christian right. When people say that "moral issues" were their primary motivation, that's code for "I'm a born again Christian and so is Bush." 56,000,000 Kerry voters can't be wrong. When you hear Bush talking about a mandate, remember that 56M would have handily won any other presidential race in history. bill E =-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:47:55 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] CD duplication Dear all, many of whom are scarily well-connected, Does anyone have any contacts for/recommendations of CDR duplicators who are in (or will ship to) the UK and will do (at non-silly money) short runs (2x100 CDRs, on-body artwork, 4/0 rear tray print and 2pp booklet, jewel case)? Thanks in advance, - - Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 08:23:15 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: [idealcopy] A fond farewell, ICers Good morning, all. I've made a tough decision to leave the list, on the grounds that my contributions of late have been minimal and unimportant. I have enjoyed a great deal of the dialogue on the list since I re-joined this year; however, I don't feel I'm adding anything to the proceedings. Those of you with an interest in keeping in touch with me are more than welcome to do so. Free speech and more TV to you all. :) Best wishes, Jack ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:27:02 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] CD duplication >>Does anyone have any contacts for/recommendations of CDR duplicators who are in (or will ship to) the UK and will do (at non-silly money) short runs (2x100 CDRs, on-body artwork, 4/0 rear tray print and 2pp booklet, jewel case)?<< Try the ads in the back of the NME, or in the freebie musicians' mag that you can find in any musical instruments shop. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 09:10:18 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] A fond farewell 2U, too Jack..... I have made some effort but felt that it was falling short, as no further dialogue came of any of my posts. Nobody's fault, though--just a matter of relevance, I guess. - -----Original Message----- From: Derek White [mailto:zak_blakk@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 05, 2004 8:55 AM To: Jack Alberson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] A fond farewell 2U, too Jack..... Re Your decision to leave the Idealcopy list: Sorry to see you go, Jack: however, just a thought:- if you feel you haven't been contributing (and I cannot make a call on *that*: as its *entirely* your assessment) , why don't you do as a number of folks do, and subscribe to the 'digest' version: that way you can still see what's going on, and contribute as and when you wish? As I said, it's just a thought, as it's always to the list's detriment when someone bails out....... Anyhow, best wishes to ya, & maybe our paths will cross again...;-) Derek White ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 07:12:53 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Robert Heaton of NMA dead I wouldn't say I was a *huge* fan, but one of the last CD's I bought was their 'Greatest hits'(!!) collection, picked up out of the cheapo box for #2:- worth it for 'Stupid Questions' alone, I'd say. Some might have found them a touch 'worthy', or dour :-prototypical 'Roundhead rock':-, others on the other side of the fence would say 'they believed in what they sang about'. Whatever, it's sad to see another one go......... Derek Jack Alberson wrote: Hey guys, Just got a report that former New Model Army drummer Robert Heaton collapsed and was unable to be resuscitated last night. Thought there might be some NMA fans lurking about. Jack Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 08:53:40 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Miles wrote............ At 02:24 AM 11/5/2004 -0800, Ari wrote: >>>I can't agree with my fellow "red stater"'s >political views (though I found them much more >reasonably and calmly expressed than, well, almost >every other Bush supporter),<< >Perhaps,Miles,for the sake of our international >members,you should explain the 'Red state Blue state' >thingy................Ari (forever 'Red' >politically,sorry Uri) I'm sorry I slipped into using it, because I *hate hate hate* the "red state - blue state" buzzwords, which, like most media trends, obscures nuance with invincible oversimplification. Anyway, this terminology only came into vogue after the 2000 presidential election, based on which color was used on US TV to represent states taken by each party. red state = Republican blue state = Democrat You'd think that with how often the right accuses our milquetoast, Republican-lite Democrats of being socialists and communists, the colors would be the other way around, but no... What really baffles me is that I have no idea when the hell this became standardized across the broadcast networks and cable news outlets. I remember as recently as 1992 flipping between election coverage, and, just as I remembered from childhood, each channel seemed to have its own ideas about which color to use for which party. Saying "red state" and "blue state" would have made even less sense then. Maybe there was a meeting of the Five Network Families in 1997 (a la SCTV's classic "Godfather" episode) where they standardized the color scheme. Got at least one list bounce to clean up and then it's off to Asheville... later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:52:33 -0700 From: "Paul Ye" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Dear Paul I am not tallented enough to debate with conviction or instant recall of facts to I will try... Ari I wish I was rich, but I work at Target and am going to school to hopefully someday get somewhat rich. I am mostly republican. I will not register with a party and have voted for other party affiliates locally. There are some things about both sides that I don't appr*ve of. Someone on the list said "the lesser of two evils" and that really sums it up. I voted for Bush because I couldn't figure Kerry out. He is very good with his words but rarely made sense to me becaese he was saying different things all the time. Of course, the media did their best to flaunt his changes in opinion and I bought it. I think what Kerry did about Viet Nam could have gotten him killed in lesser countries, or tried for treason. The constitution even says something about doing things contrary to the objectives of the US while representing the military cannot be elected to the presidential office. I am not sure if I agree that he was doing such, but some are making the argument (referring to Kerry speaking out about the things he did in Viet Nam). There are many things about Bush that I don't approve of. The reason I didn't talk much about Iraq is because I think that Bush went in there to settle something personal that his father started and didn't finish. That is where a good chunk of the hate started when the US pulled out of Iraq without getting Saddam and he gassed the Kurds. I lived in Germany for almost 2 years in the early 90's and observed the hate many of the older Germans had for Americans because of WW2. There were a lot of military in Hessen and the Rhein-Pfalz areas, and it probably made them feel like they were constantly being watched. Many locals when they found out I was American told me to go home. I agree that Bush has been bad for relation between us and the world. For hells sake, Canada hates us too and we have the same blood! I work with a guy from Iran and he supports Bush, but disagrees with the current situation in Iraq because they went in too fast. He is glad that Saddam is out of power because he understood the opression and fear he was causing there, but sympathizes that the Americans have been there too long. I am not gonna say much about the Bush christianity thing but I will say that I want a God fearing man to run my country. Bush hasn't exaclty been the shining example of that, but the next guy I want to be religious because it is important to ME. Back to Ari, I knew that you would get riled up because of some of your previous posts. You know this isn't personal right? Send me some of that Carolina barbeque! _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee. Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 12:50:47 -0500 From: Tisbili@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? here's how... America is a funny place right now. Democracy can be imposed at gunpoint, intelligence is dumb, war is security, repression is freedom. Now playing: "1984." by Garry Wills This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they could be turned out, would be the deciding factor. The success of the plan was registered not only in the presidential results but also in all 11 of the state votes to ban same-sex marriage. Mr. Rove understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution. This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in which William Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept of evolution was discredited. Disillusionment with that decision led many evangelicals to withdraw from direct engagement in politics. But they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, now, gay marriage. Mr. Rove felt that the appeal to this large bloc was worth getting President Bush to endorse a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage (though he had opposed it earlier). ... Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation? America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of Enlightenment values - critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. Though the founders differed on many things, they shared these values of what was then modernity. They addressed "a candid world," as they wrote in the Declaration of Independence, out of "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind." Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11. The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble those nations less than we do our putative enemies. Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. We find it in the Muslim world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. Americans wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so single-minded, so impervious to international appeals. They fear jihad, no matter whose zeal is being expressed. ... President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and abroad, with real respect. In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. His helpers are also his keepers. The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment. Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:12:59 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire ringtones? Philip: > > Does anyone in the Brains Trust know whether there > > are any sources of polyphonic ring tones for any > > Wire ditties. If I have to have one of the dreaded > > mobiles, I may as well Wire it up? Try under "Elastica"... should be at least three Wire tunes in there. - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:18:20 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire ringtones? you know i looked a fair bit to try and get "connection" , but never found it anywhere..........p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:25:09 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The Road ahead is quite uncertain...Interpol Jason: > I was particularly impressed by the opening set from On!Air!Library!. Wow. I thought the very worst band-name crimes against punctuation and capitalization had already been committed, but that's something else. Is it pronounced "on chk air chk library chk"? They could still be a great band, though. In interests of full disclosure, it became official last night: my band is named Skates & Rays. (The ampersand is pronounced as "and".) - -James!Rex!Broome! - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 14:56:12 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Dear Paul On Thu, 4 Nov 2004, Paul Ye wrote: > I am not gonna say much about the Bush christianity thing but I will say > that I want a God fearing man to run my country. Bush hasn't exaclty > been the shining example of that, but the next guy I want to be > religious because it is important to ME. You do know that Bush barely goes to church, while Kerry goes regularly, don't you? Claiming to be religious doesn't make you religious. But you bought into it, so who cares what Bush is really like? a ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:00:07 -0500 From: Tisbili@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The Road ahead is quiteuncertain...Interpol >The ampersand is pronounced as "and". Ummm..how else does one pronounce it? billE =-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:16:08 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The Road ahead is quiteuncertain...Interpol On Fri, 05 Nov 2004 15:00:07 -0500, tisbili@aol.com wrote: > >The ampersand is pronounced as "and". > > Ummm..how else does one pronounce it? Hee. That was a sort of obscure riff on how the band named !!! insists on being called "chk chk chk". I was just trying to be clear that I wasn't going to hypocritically insist the you pronounce my band's name "skates ampersand rays" or anything like that. Now that I think about it this nonsense dates back to INXS, whose name should clearly have been pronounced 'eye en ex ess". - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 20:36:49 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? I've got to agree with what billE writes here almost completely. What I find most confusing about otherwise well-meaning people voting for Bush (I can understand what fundamentalist Christians and oil barons get out of it) is that they seem to ignore all the terrible stuff that goes with the allegedly strong leadership and tax cuts e.g. The fact that culturally you will be stuffed for decades when Bush gets his nominees in the Supreme Court. Bang goes abortion rights. Bang goes anything that doesn't conform to a warped notion of family values. This is rather more important than a few more dollars in the pocket. The fact that 4 more years of Bush's approach to climate change is 4 more years that we - all of us - can't afford. Kerry wouldn't necessarily have made a big difference but you just know that Bush won't do anything at all. Meanwhile the ice caps continue to melt... (which will ultimately lead to demographic change as all those Democrat voters on the coasts are forced to move inland!). This is definitely more important than a few more dollars in the pocket. The fact that the alleged strong leadership makes the world a much more dangerous place. The irony is of course that this won't impact on most Bush voters as middle-America is as safe as you can get in world terms if you leave nuclear war and white supremacists out of the equation and don't join the military. No, the people who will feel more uneasy (as opposed to very uneasy which would be everyone living in the middle east and North Korea) are people like me, working in a western European capital, an easy target for bombers. This is pretty important to me. And the fact that Bush is obviously a stupid man not just as a politician but as a person. I can never understand why people want to vote a stupid man into power. Of the various articles I've read in the past few days I particularly liked Simon Scharma's piece in the Guardian today which postulates that America is now two utterly divided nations and calls not for healing but for a fight. Go for it. The link is here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1344144,00.html another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Tisbili@aol.com Sent: 05 November 2004 17:51 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? here's how... America is a funny place right now. Democracy can be imposed at gunpoint, intelligence is dumb, war is security, repression is freedom. Now playing: "1984." by Garry Wills This election confirms the brilliance of Karl Rove as a political strategist. He calculated that the religious conservatives, if they could be turned out, would be the deciding factor. The success of the plan was registered not only in the presidential results but also in all 11 of the state votes to ban same-sex marriage. Mr. Rove understands what surveys have shown, that many more Americans believe in the Virgin Birth than in Darwin's theory of evolution. This might be called Bryan's revenge for the Scopes trial of 1925, in which William Jennings Bryan's fundamentalist assault on the concept of evolution was discredited. Disillusionment with that decision led many evangelicals to withdraw from direct engagement in politics. But they came roaring back into the arena out of anger at other court decisions - on prayer in school, abortion, protection of the flag and, now, gay marriage. Mr. Rove felt that the appeal to this large bloc was worth getting President Bush to endorse a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage (though he had opposed it earlier). ... Which raises the question: Can a people that believes more fervently in the Virgin Birth than in evolution still be called an Enlightened nation? America, the first real democracy in history, was a product of Enlightenment values - critical intelligence, tolerance, respect for evidence, a regard for the secular sciences. Though the founders differed on many things, they shared these values of what was then modernity. They addressed "a candid world," as they wrote in the Declaration of Independence, out of "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind." Respect for evidence seems not to pertain any more, when a poll taken just before the elections showed that 75 percent of Mr. Bush's supporters believe Iraq either worked closely with Al Qaeda or was directly involved in the attacks of 9/11. The secular states of modern Europe do not understand the fundamentalism of the American electorate. It is not what they had experienced from this country in the past. In fact, we now resemble those nations less than we do our putative enemies. Where else do we find fundamentalist zeal, a rage at secularity, religious intolerance, fear of and hatred for modernity? Not in France or Britain or Germany or Italy or Spain. We find it in the Muslim world, in Al Qaeda, in Saddam Hussein's Sunni loyalists. Americans wonder that the rest of the world thinks us so dangerous, so single-minded, so impervious to international appeals. They fear jihad, no matter whose zeal is being expressed. ... President Bush promised in 2000 that he would lead a humble country, be a uniter not a divider, that he would make conservatism compassionate. He did not need to make such false promises this time. He was re-elected precisely by being a divider, pitting the reddest aspects of the red states against the blue nearly half of the nation. In this, he is very far from Ronald Reagan, who was amiably and ecumenically pious. He could address more secular audiences, here and abroad, with real respect. In his victory speech yesterday, President Bush indicated that he would "reach out to the whole nation," including those who voted for John Kerry. But even if he wanted to be more conciliatory now, the constituency to which he owes his victory is not a yielding one. He must give them what they want on things like judicial appointments. His helpers are also his keepers. The moral zealots will, I predict, give some cause for dismay even to nonfundamentalist Republicans. Jihads are scary things. It is not too early to start yearning back toward the Enlightenment. Garry Wills, an adjunct professor of history at Northwestern University, is the author of "St. Augustine's Conversion." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:48:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Dear Paul Pt. 700 and a half............... >>back to Ari, I knew that you would get riled up because of some of your previous posts. You know this isn't personal right? Send me some of that Carolina barbeque!<< Paul you are welcome to drop by my place any time you're in the area (Chapel Hill,N.C) that goes for all of ya. I have called a meeting of some of my friends and clients for tomorrow morning to debate the begining of a new political party,it's time the disenfranchised Democrats and Republicans of this country took it back from the rich elite,to think that Bush and Kerry were in the same elite club at school should put in perspective what's gone wrong here,we are no longer a democracy,we are a duocracy,a two party system keeping each other in power. Time to move on.Ari __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:50:14 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Dear Paul Paul & then Aaron: > > I am not gonna say much about the Bush christianity thing but I will say > > that I want a God fearing man to run my country. Bush hasn't exaclty > > been the shining example of that, but the next guy I want to be > > religious because it is important to ME. > > You do know that Bush barely goes to church, while Kerry goes regularly, > don't you? Claiming to be religious doesn't make you religious. > > But you bought into it, so who cares what Bush is really like? Besides which... Bush isn't just YOUR president, he is now, sadly, mine as well. Do you feel you have a responsibility to pick the guy who's gonna treat YOU the best, or the guy who's best for the country, and all Americans... which includes tons of non-religious people like m'self (and Bush is pretty clear that that makes me not really an American) and people who practice religions other than his (which seems to be almost as bad in his book)? Does your vote indicate that you agree, and me and my non-Christian friends should just go back where we came from? There's supposed to be a separation of church and state. Majorities don't change that. Well... they *shouldn't*, anyway. The president is not above the constitution. And neither is the bibleL it may guide your actions in your own personal life, but why should it I'd rather have a leader who "fears" as few things as possible, imaginary deities included. - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 12:57:00 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Aaron sed.(here I go agin') >>You do know that Bush barely goes to church, while Kerry goes regularly,don't you? Claiming to be religious doesn't make you religious. But you bought into it, so who cares what Bush is really like? << It's time we as a species grew up and realized there is no god,it's just fairy tales.if there was a god Bush would have lost,what's really scary is he plays on the fears and hatreds of the christian fundamentalists,fuck 'em all i say.Ari Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:15:38 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] IBTABA > > I remember reading in Melody Maker the track listing for > > IBTABA and being > > bitterly disappointed. I had a craving for an entirely new > > album - rather > > than the reworkings-plus that we were being offered. I bought it > > nonetheless. Quite liked it, but by no means a classic > > Two of us who really rate it highly, including myself, cited it as the > first full Wire album we heard, which might explain it. IBTABA is one of my favorite Wire albums. But it's not the first I heard - that would be Ideal Copy. Somewhere in the historical SMOE.org archives, I once compiled a ranked list of Wire albums, but I have no idea how to search for it! Wonder if my tastes now are the same as then? I thought the "re-works" on IBTABA were brilliant - it shows that there isn't just one way to perform Wire material. > One wonders > if the next generation of Wire fans might feel similarly about Send > vs. the preceding EP's. Can't say, as I love Send a great deal > myself... > Interesting question. I know there's an opinion here that you tend to like the "Wire Phase" you heard the first time. e.g. I prefer the 80's material, since I heard IdealCopy first. You may be right about Send and fans who hear this 00's material as their first exposure to Wire. For the record, I do like Send, BTW. To me it seems a great amalgam of the energy and spirit of 70's Wire, with the increased arrangement and production skills of 80's Wire. I will confess, however, that I listen to a "full length" version of PF456Redux - i.e. a CD assemble I made of Send, Read and Burn 1 and Read and Burn 2 - most of the time. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2004 22:20:29 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? > And the fact that Bush is obviously a stupid man not just as a > politician but as a person. I can never understand why people want to > vote a stupid man into power. Without wanting to insult the Bush-voters here... I just saw the results of an extensive IQ-test between democrats & republicans where the latter scored significantly lower than the first. Kerry & Bush both seem to fit that description perfectly. In the land of the blind the oneliner is king! > I am not gonna say much about the Bush christianity thing but I will say that > I want a God fearing man to run my country. "God fearing man"? Now if you would have said "God loving man" I would've managed to scrape together a bit of sympathy. I couldn't disagree more here. I'd very very much like religion to be a very very private thing and our states to be very very secular. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 15:28:40 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Dear Paul I am not gonna say > much about the Bush christianity thing but I will say that I want a God > fearing man to run my country. Bush hasn't exaclty been the shining example > of that, but the next guy I want to be religious because it is important to > ME. courageous of you to admit you've got a problem -- that's the first step on the road to recovery, they say. dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 13:38:12 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] how can 59 million be so stupid? Bart: > "God fearing man"? Now if you would have said "God loving man" I would've > managed to scrape together a bit of sympathy. Word. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and hatred leads to the dark side. Oh, wait. That's Star Wars. Where that nice dude takes over the government and uses the fear of a phony military threat as an excuse to create a clone army that lets him turn the noble Republic into an Evil Military Empire. Dunno how I got so confused there. - -Rex, whose daughters are really into Star Wars right now, so cut him some slack - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 10:51:50 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire ringtones? You can still look for "The Line Up" if you fancy "I Am the Fly", or that other one that sounds just like Kidney Bingos. If that doesn't float your boat, look for that song by Menswe@r. Okay, I'm bein' a dick. It's not like I've never written a song that massively rips off our boys. Just never had a hit with one. - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 19:36:55 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V7 #320 - -----Original Message----- From: Wilson, Paul > ...no evidence whatsoever that Iraq played at part in 9/11, > of course, but there has been a relationship between > Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda. This is amazing! How could there possibly be links between Al Qaeda and Saddam BEFORE 9/11? Al Qaeda wasn't in existence before 9/11! Al Qaeda isn't really a group - it was invented by the US in order to put Osama on trial (he had to be the head of an organisation for the US to do this, in his absence). - ------------------------------ The relationship between Hussein and bin Laden has never been proved to my knowledge. What's more it would have been completely illogical - Hussein was a secular leader and bin Laden wants a fundamentalist Islamic state. Hussein was part of bin Laden's problem, as are the Saudi royal family. Another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Nov 2004 00:22:42 GMT From: "P J Kane" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V7 #320 << The relationship between Hussein and bin Laden has never been proved to my knowledge. What's more it would have been completely illogical - Hussein was a secular leader and bin Laden wants a fundamentalist Islamic state. Hussein was part of bin Laden's problem, as are the Saudi royal family. >> i remember, just after 9/11, reading Bin Laden's Manifesto online. i think it was on the BBC site, and it is called something like "Open letter to King Faud" and was published in a Saudi newspaper. there should still be translations on the web somewhere. Google it. if you sort through all of the Koranic verses and flowery religious language, you get to the meat of the matter. wherein bin Laden _specifically_ named Hussein as an "enemy of Islam". i think Musarrif (Pakistan) was named as well... i thought that very odd, and did some looking as to why he might hate them. both have strongly put down fundamentalist movements, usually in bloody fashion. of course, that's why we went in and took out Hussein, right? it's probably also why Pakistan is such an important ally right now.... so there was a connection: bin Laden thought Hussein was a European tool, and Hussein thought bin Laden was a religious nutjob. in retrospect, both were probably right. PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #321 *******************************