From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #319 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, November 4 2004 Volume 07 : Number 319 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Dear Paul. [Ari ] [idealcopy] Grey men [Fergus Kelly ] [idealcopy] Drinking wine spoddyoddy [Fergus Kelly ] RE: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" ] Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. [Rex Broome ] Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. ["P J Kane" ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... ["Jason Rogers" ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... [MarkBursa@aol.c] [idealcopy] not the best ["Cambra, Robert" ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA ["Ian B" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT) Neocon Agenda ["Ian B" ] [idealcopy] OT: Robert Heaton of NMA dead ["Jack Alberson" ] Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA [Rex Broome ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... [CHRISWIRE@aol.c] [idealcopy] O:T a little light humor....... [Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. Yes,you got a tax break and some money in you pocket,but at what expense,Bush is slowly but surely bankrupting America and you can't see it. As for Bush 'not being that bad' BULLSHIT!! He attacked Iraq on a lie,when he SHOULD have gone after osama,who is STILL FREE! before Bush younr Arabians looked to America as a role model of Democracy.They now look to radical Islam.There are MORE terrorists in the world because of Bush,not less,those that loved us now hate us and those that hated us now kill us,so don't tell me BUSH ISN'T THAT BAD,or are you one of the rich bastards that got a HUGE tax break at the expense of the poor and working class. Bush tried to stop retiree's and others from getting their prescription drugs from Canada so the drug companies could continue to bleed them yet,when the 'flu vacine scandal broke what was the first thing he did Paul?He asked Canada for 'flu shots,the man's a maniac and he'll send us all to hell.not that basd indeed.I can only assume you are a republican,well Paul,look at the mess he's made of international relationships,look at the mess in the middle east because he more or less said 'it's not my problem' and withdrew from the (then) ongoing process of t least trying to get the two sides to talk.(not that Arafat gives a shit,I pray he drops dead,he is a Multi Millionaire who only wants the total destruction of Israel) I could go on but have to get ready for work,I wish you well,let's see where we're at in four years time,scary as that may be after a few more thousand American body bags have come home,will you still think he's not that bad? Ari __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 03:00:15 -0800 (PST) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Grey men Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 12:00:13 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] It's all in the brochure Haha... Graham wearing a pair of pints - excellent! Shame though they seem a bit greyish (the photos that is). ((( Yeah.. apologies for poor quality, but they were taken on an automatic, and most of them are close up crops of the originals, hence the grain... Fergus Bart __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 02:53:48 -0800 (PST) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Drinking wine spoddyoddy Chris wrote: Oh how true Fergus ...How True. My condolences to all Americans 7 especially listees ! It's not all bad though.Nov 3rd is my wife's birthday ((( My best wishes... & we have eaten a Chinese meal & drank 2 bottles of wine. Chris - Still finding Peelies death a sobering thought. ((( Peelie's premature passing has been a lot to assimilate... more than just a radio show... a phenomenon, an institution, a national - nay international - treasure... all this talk of a *replacement* is bollox, as, obviously, there is no replacement, things have changed irrevocably, and we must (eventually) move on... difficult and all as that seems right now... I had been so looking forward to meeting him in Glasgow, but he left early... I did spot him earlier in the day, ambling down Sauchiehall street brandishing a bag of LPs... with the benign grin of someone happy to bag a few more albums to add to the thousands already accumulated... NP.Coil - Music To Play In The Dark 1 & 2 ((( May I commend you on your excellent choice in music... vol.1 easily the better of the two, I especially love the track Broccoli, one of their finest in many a long year... Batwings from vol.2 is pretty good too... I got some nice photos of Coil in Dublin... will get them up on Flickr in due course... Fergus Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 03:14:16 -0800 (PST) From: Bryan Subject: [idealcopy] Re: OT: For US-based IC-ers: a last-ditch plea....... Hello all...de-lurking a bit.... I'm in the U.S. I'm not interested in getting into the heated debate of this thread, but I am curious about the image of the U.S. outside, in the rest of the world. My own opinion is that neither Democratic nor Republican candidates were either very good. It seems to me, regardless of who got in, the U.S. is still controlled by those with the money (i.e. Big Businesses). Anyone else care to share their view on the role of big business in American Politics? Oh, and to keep it at least a little on target, I wonder why my orders from posteverything (in Britain, the U.S.'s main ally politically) get here in two days, and my orders from Belgium (considering the stance conservatives have towards France and the people in the U.S. lumping people together - like the Sikhs who were beaten after 9/11) take 2 months? Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but sometimes I wonder if the U.S. simply spends too much time and money analyzing people's personal mail......or perhaps it's just the method by which they're shipped (I'd have to double check that). Oh, well. Good day to all of you. Bryan Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 04:44:26 -0800 (PST) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The road ahead is quite uncertain... Absolutely. It was singularly depressing watching the results come in on the night. However, I felt it in my bones that he'd win after hearing the thoughts of some 'swing voters' in Ohio a couple of days beforehand. They were 9/10 for Bush, parroting the line about how he'd 'kept them safe'. Guess the negative TV ad campaigns work...... Fergus Kelly wrote: Now that the Global Village Idiot with the gormless grin will be with us for another 1,460 days, I declare today, Nov 3rd, an International Day of Mourning. *sigh* God help us all.... Fergus __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 16:22:20 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... I must be the Johnny Ramone of Idealcopy. I voted for President Bush on November 2, just as I voted for him back in 2000. I also voted for Republican Senator Johnny Isakson here in Georgia. Disclaimer that nothing that anyone says to me here will get me down today, as I attended a radio listening party for Interpol last night here in Atlanta and watched the band play on a stage area about the size of my living room, along with 250 or so other people. These guys have gotten better in concert each time that I've seen them (four times now). I'll be going to see their "real" Atlanta show tonight. Jason _________________________________________________________________ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:53:24 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... I voted for President Bush on November 2, just as I voted for him back in 2000. I also voted for Republican Senator Johnny Isakson here in Georgia. For fuck's sake, why? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 09:25:13 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: For US-based IC-ers: a last-ditch plea....... Paul: > I don't see a basis for all the Bush hate. Yes, it > is true that he is not the best president. But it really isn's that bad. I > got a huge tax refund twice. I will never argue will cold cash in the > wallet. Yo, I got that refund, too, and I didn't fail to cash it, with the kids to feed and whatnot, but I felt pretty dirty. The basis for the Bush hate is, predominantly, this: the administration is trying to legislate both religion and corporate croneyism... things which (A) oughtta be mutually exclusive, and (B) should not be in government anyhow. What really bugs me is that exit polls show Americans equating at least the first thing with "moral values", as if Kerry was a confessed baby-eater for pledging to uphold the Constitution. So it's our own slim -but-growing majority's fault. Remember the Onion's "What Do You Think?" piece from four years back? "They say you get the government you deserve, but I don't recall knife-raping any retarded nuns." Just a quote,,, - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:06:54 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: For US-based IC-ers: a last-ditch plea....... >>>...it really isn't that bad. I got a huge tax refund twice. I will never argue will cold cash in the wallet.<<< Wow! The Bush administration BOUGHT your support and you're happy to admit it... They must be killing themselves laughing. Ari's points are all well made. I also feel that if you were aware of the impact of Bush's policies on the developing world regarding contraception/Aids prevention (the official line is abstain - don't use condoms which results in much suffering for women in poverty) and perhaps, closer to home, his scrapping of legislation intended to protect the environment, you would be less smug. Mrs Thatcher gave us tax rebates and most of us weren't fooled (ie she did not get a majority vote, unlike Bush), though I admit that enough people were fooled to vote John Major in. Perhaps they were scared of the then Labour leader (Kinnock) in much the same way that people in the US are scared of international terrorism (which, though to be condemned, kills fewer people than traffic accidents). RE the other thread. No we weren't particularly impressed with Kerry in the UK but he would have had my vote. As here with Blair, it is a case of the lesser of two evils... ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:59:03 -0000 From: "Uri Baran" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. I rarely get involved in political discussions on such heated topics but I couldn't resist. I can't say whether George Bush has been a good president as he's not my president. I view the USA as the de facto global police force. I don't think they do it for altruistic reasons but the result is the same, a safer world. If no one goes after the tyrants, they grow and threaten their neighbours and the world. It was Britain, America and Russia (with a lot of support) that sorted Adolf. Who sorts today's Adolf's, the UN?! If one mustn't have a go at terrorists because it tends to piss them off then why not just lie down and let them walk all over us? I say thank you to the USA for saving the world from communism. I say thank you to the USA for helping out during WWI and WWII and I say thank you George Bush for not being soft and saying it's alright for tyrants and regimes that threaten other countries to be left alone to prosper. U. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ari" To: Sent: Thursday, November 04, 2004 10:01 AM Subject: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. > Yes,you got a tax break and some money in you > pocket,but at what expense,Bush is slowly but surely > bankrupting America and you can't see it. > As for Bush 'not being that bad' BULLSHIT!! He > attacked Iraq on a lie,when he SHOULD have gone after > osama,who is STILL FREE! before Bush younr Arabians > looked to America as a role model of Democracy.They > now look to radical Islam.There are MORE terrorists in > the world because of Bush,not less,those that loved us > now hate us and those that hated us now kill us,so > don't tell me BUSH ISN'T THAT BAD,or are you one of > the rich bastards that got a HUGE tax break at the > expense of the poor and working class. > Bush tried to stop retiree's and others from getting > their prescription drugs from Canada so the drug > companies could continue to bleed them yet,when the > 'flu vacine scandal broke what was the first thing he > did Paul?He asked Canada for 'flu shots,the man's a > maniac and he'll send us all to hell.not that basd > indeed.I can only assume you are a republican,well > Paul,look at the mess he's made of international > relationships,look at the mess in the middle east > because he more or less said 'it's not my problem' and > withdrew from the (then) ongoing process of t least > trying to get the two sides to talk.(not that Arafat > gives a shit,I pray he drops dead,he is a Multi > Millionaire who only wants the total destruction of > Israel) I could go on but have to get ready for work,I > wish you well,let's see where we're at in four years > time,scary as that may be after a few more thousand > American body bags have come home,will you still think > he's not that bad? Ari > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:37:00 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. >>>I say thank you George Bush for not being soft and saying it's alright for tyrants and regimes that threaten other countries to be left alone to prosper.<<< U. Trouble is, Uri, it seems very selective to remove Saddam when the world is full of dodgy leaders who have been left alone for decades... No-one says Saddam was a good guy but the whole point of going to war with him second time around was that he represented a threat to the outside world. To many of us that always seemed unlikely. He was contained by sanctions and a watchful world. Hopefully removing him WILL improve conditions for the ordinary Iraqi, but it will have been at an incredible cost in financial and human terms. There are plenty of US citizens living in poverty who must wish some of the rebuilding cost was going their way. I don't really need to add that three UK soldiers died today and US troops are dying almost every day, it seems. No single country can be the world's policeman... ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:42:40 -0800 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. Uri, The issue is: how do you spot an Adolf? When is it proper to take action? Deliberation on such a matter can drag out in the UN, and at the other extreme, it can be misguided or poorly executed if done unilateraly and in haste. In this specific matter, you have to wonder if someone that does not like deliberate or hear opposing points of view is good to be determining how this police nation should behave. I doubt that given the realities of the world today, that would you have a softy at the helm in the US. I mean, it disturbs me to think what Bush would have done during the Cuban Missles Crisis. So, all the examples that you are thankful to the US (WW1, WW2, etc.), were done by able men with a sense of responsability. Time did not hinder the results. And yes, the goodwill did have its purpose for US capitalism as well. Now, take that serious flaw when it comes to international approach, and add some of the issues raised on the domestic front by Ari (though perhaps there could be a better tone, but understand if tone/decorum is a bit in short supply at the moment). Add to that a shift in how this country was structured, and the assumption that it would remain a secular state with some modifications as it grows old, and you got a bit of a division. cheers! - -fernando On Thu, 4 Nov 2004 17:59:03 -0000, Uri Baran wrote: > I rarely get involved in political discussions on such heated topics but I > couldn't resist. > > I can't say whether George Bush has been a good president as he's not my > president. I view the USA > as the de facto global police force. I don't think they do it for altruistic > reasons but the result is the same, a safer world. > If no one goes after the tyrants, they grow and threaten their neighbours > and the world. It was Britain, America and Russia (with a lot of support) > that sorted Adolf. Who sorts today's Adolf's, the UN?! > > If one mustn't have a go at terrorists because it tends to piss them off > then why not just lie down and let them walk all over us? > > I say thank you to the USA for saving the world from communism. I say thank > you to the USA for helping out during WWI and WWII and I say > thank you George Bush for not being soft and saying it's alright for tyrants > and regimes that threaten other countries to be left alone to prosper. > > U. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 10:37:10 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. > I say > thank you George Bush for not being soft and saying it's alright for tyrants > and regimes that threaten other countries to be left alone to prosper. Unless you sell you're our partner in big oil, in which case torture and repress your own citizens to your heart's content, yeah? America... FUCK YEAH! - -Rex ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:42:38 GMT From: "P J Kane" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. << I say thank you to the USA for saving the world from communism. I say thank you to the USA for helping out during WWI and WWII >> those were all group efforts really... << and I say thank you George Bush for not being soft and saying it's alright for tyrants and regimes that threaten other countries to be left alone to prosper. >> really, you buy that argument? if the USA went after Saddam because he is a tyrant and dictator, then why aren't US forces in The Sudan right now, preventing the genocide going on over there? why didn't the US intervene when Indonesia was slaughtering the East Timorese a few years back? heck, why did we stand there and let Saddam gas the Kurds (with gas that the USA sold him, in a deal negotiated by current SecDef D. Rumsfeld!)? my problem is that the US "global police work" is inconsistent. we help stop the slaughter in Kosovo, but we stood by and watched as Saddam gassed the Kurds. then, later, we go after him for that, while we stand by and ignore the slaughter in The Sudan. why? if there was a _consistent_ policy of "we go after rulers who kill masses of people" then i would be all for it, but that's not what happens. it takes some ulterior motivation, like Iraq's oil, to get us motivated enough to intervene. (i think we only went into Kosovo because the war there made the other NATO members really nervous. otherwise the USA would have ignored the slaughter of the Kosavar.) so i don't know where you live, but my idea of "a global police force" is one that acts out of morality, not self-interest. i don't have to bribe the police with a box of Krispy Kreme donuts in order to get them to check out the burglary at my house, they do it because checking these things out is The Right Thing To Do. the US is not a police force. it's just the biggest force around, and it only acts when it's interests are threatened. don't forget that..... PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 04 Nov 2004 18:48:38 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... >From: MarkBursa@aol.com >To: inspectorjason@hotmail.com, idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... >Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:53:24 EST > >For fuck's sake, why? > I like the way that he stood up to a dead-on-arrival United Nations. The speech that Bush made to the U.N. on September 2002 was pretty much the cornerstone for my decision to vote for him again. The things that have happened under Kofi Annan's watch over the past fifteen years or so are inexcusable...the Oil-For-Food fiasco with Iraq, genocides in Rwanda, etc. That organization is simply not willing to enforce resolutions anymore. In the words of a law enforcement officer that I used to work with, "A Law Without Penalty Is Mere Advice." Lots of other reasons why I voted for Bush as well and, believe me, I could spend all day discussing them. That's the short version, though. _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar  get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 14:05:14 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... >>I like the way that he stood up to a dead-on-arrival United Nations. The speech that Bush made to the U.N. on September 2002 was pretty much the cornerstone for my decision to vote for him again. The things that have happened under Kofi Annan's watch over the past fifteen years or so are inexcusable...the Oil-For-Food fiasco with Iraq, genocides in Rwanda, etc. That organization is simply not willing to enforce resolutions anymore. In the words of a law enforcement officer that I used to work with, "A Law Without Penalty Is Mere Advice."<< But the UN *DID* enforce the resolution on Iraq. It put weapons inspectors in to look for so-called "WMD". And it didn't find any - because there weren't any. But the US went in anyway, despite the fact that the UN was right. By voting for Bush and his christian fundamentalists, you have further distanced America from its allies, and further enraged the muslim world. Expect a lot more dead americans coming home in body bags. Kerry may have been dull-but-worthy, but he;'s a decent man who would have mended bridges with Europe and the rest of the world. Instead the loathsome Rumsfeld will be supplying some more dynamite as we speak. A desperately sad state of affairs. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:50:42 -0800 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: [idealcopy] not the best Paul, Paul, Paul--what are we going to do with you? "I don't see a basis for all the Bush hate. Yes, it is true that he is not the best president. But it really isn's that bad. I got a huge tax refund twice. I will never argue will cold cash in the wallet." Robert (another) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 12:30:44 -0800 (PST) From: Jan Noorda Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Dear Paul. If one must have a go at terrorists because it tends to piss them off then why not just lie down and let them walk all over us? Bush is not just only stressing the goatfuckers like Osama. I am scared also of what will he do next. It looks like we are going back in time. Abortion in small little dark rooms. Gay people who are scared to say the love another. Work till you die. No possibilities to reach the top because you don't owe money. Damned it looks grey and dark between the leafs of the Bush. And as some say Bush is not destroying terrorists. He is creating them. The biggest goatf*, so to speak in van Gogh words, is still alive. And the man who hated men like Osama, Sadam Hussein is not anymore. Damn what is this Bush doing I think it is just a family affair he is trying to solve for his father. don't like goats Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com/a ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:08:03 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... > >From: MarkBursa@aol.com > >To: inspectorjason@hotmail.com, idealcopy@smoe.org > >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... > >Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 11:53:24 EST > > > >For fuck's sake, why? > > > > I like the way that he stood up to a dead-on-arrival United Nations. The > speech that Bush made to the U.N. on September 2002 was pretty much the > cornerstone for my decision to vote for him again. The things that have > happened under Kofi Annan's watch over the past fifteen years or so are > inexcusable...the Oil-For-Food fiasco with Iraq, genocides in Rwanda, etc. > That organization is simply not willing to enforce resolutions anymore. > In the words of a law enforcement officer that I used to work with, "A Law > Without Penalty Is Mere Advice." > > Lots of other reasons why I voted for Bush as well and, believe me, I could > spend all day discussing them. That's the short version, though. i won't pretend to speak for jason, but of course it's pretty inarguable -- particularly down here below the mason-dixon line -- that the wetbrained mass murderer prevailed mostly on a platform of "god, guns & (anti-)gays." plus, of course, as we've been reminded in someone else's post, "a huge tax refund twice" for people who very clearly didn't need it if they were able to qualify for it. (under bush, back when i was making at least 4 times what i am now -- more than that, really, since i actually had health insurance back then -- my own "huge tax refund" totaled $300. i know what they say about everyone being a whore if the right amount of money is involved, but i'm pretty sure i'll be requiring more than *that*). dan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:29:01 -0000 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy]...and more TV There's a Peel tribute on BBC2 this Saturday night. Not sure what it entails but should be worth a look ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:32:01 -0000 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA I remember reading in Melody Maker the track listing for IBTABA and being bitterly disappointed. I had a craving for an entirely new album - rather than the reworkings-plus that we were being offered. I bought it nonetheless. Quite liked it, but by no means a classic ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:27:30 -0000 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT) Neocon Agenda There's an excellent series just run on BBC2 called The Power of Nightmares; quite chilling. It draws a parallel between the US neoconservatives and Islamic Fundamentalists and their common hatred of and belief in the corrosive effects of liberal values. It suggests that part of the neocon agenda is simply to create phantom (or grossly exaggerated) threats (communism, Islamic terror) that inspire fear in the general populace in order to create an environment wherein their particular worldview and global ambition can be expressed through US Foreign policy. The ends (the spread of the neocons' own version of 'freedom' across the globe to render a safer, more prosperous US) justify the means - the likes of which we currently see in spades. It may have concluded now (I'm catching up on tape) but if you get the chance to see it it's well worth it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:19:47 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Robert Heaton of NMA dead Hey guys, Just got a report that former New Model Army drummer Robert Heaton collapsed and was unable to be resuscitated last night. Thought there might be some NMA fans lurking about. Jack ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 18:56:18 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Drinking wine spoddyoddy Thanks Fergus I like Broccoli alot too.That first Volume reminds me in a strange way to Graham Lewis' vocals on his non Wire recordings. You are right about having to move on now new John Peel broadcasts will be no more.There is no replacement for the man but his legacy should be that the spirit of how he broadcast to listeners should be maintained if you know what I mean. Chris NP Elbow - Cast Of Thousands ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:01:23 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: OT: For US-based IC-ers: a last-ditch plea....... In a message dated 04/11/2004 11:31:05 GMT Standard Time, khabs93@yahoo.com writes: My own opinion is that neither Democratic nor Republican candidates were either very good. It seems to me, regardless of who got in, the U.S. is still controlled by those with the money (i.e. Big Businesses). A really good point Bryan.Both candidates were pretty poor politicians.I think if the Democrats had a candidate with even a little charisma then Bush would be history. Apparantly George's brother in Florida is extremely popular & we can look forward to a dynasty of Bushman Presidents by 2008. Anyone get the XTC link there ?? Chris NP The Jesus & Mary Chain - Automatic ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:03:45 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Fernando Wrote........... >> take that serious flaw when it comes to international approach, and add some of the issues raised on the domestic front by Ari (though perhaps there could be a better tone, but understand if tone/decorum is a bit in short supply at the moment)<< Agreed.Sorry Paul. Ari Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:43:48 -0800 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IBTABA Ian: > I remember reading in Melody Maker the track listing for IBTABA and being > bitterly disappointed. I had a craving for an entirely new album - rather > than the reworkings-plus that we were being offered. I bought it > nonetheless. Quite liked it, but by no means a classic Two of us who really rate it highly, including myself, cited it as the first full Wire album we heard, which might explain it. One wonders if the next generation of Wire fans might feel similarly about Send vs. the preceding EP's. Can't say, as I love Send a great deal myself... - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:18:17 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... In a message dated 04/11/2004 19:12:34 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: Kerry may have been dull-but-worthy, but he;'s a decent man who would have mended bridges with Europe and the rest of the world. Instead the loathsome Rumsfeld will be supplying some more dynamite as we speak. A desperately sad state of affairs. So will we have a safer world in the next 4 years ? I personally don't think so. I think the Christian & Muslim world will become further polarized & if another atrocity happens whether it is in the US or Britain or wherever then that will harden the American stance & will ensure even more body bags full of Americans & allied forces. Admittedly with these terrorists it is hard to fight an army that hides & you cannot see but healing starts at home & the US need to get the rest of the world on their side first & I just don't see that yet. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 16:37:42 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] O:T a little light humor....... - --- > > It seems that the 2004 election was so close that > the Electoral College vote was tied, and that > Congress couldn't break the deadlock, and the > Supreme Court decided they'd better not again make > the decision themselves. > > > So they sent Bush and Kerry to a frozen lake in > northern Wisconsin to have an ice fishing contest. > No one was allowed to accompany them, and they were > on their honor to let the guy who caught the most > fish in five days become president. > > > On the first day they went out in different > directions. Kerry came back with ten fish. Bush > caught none. On the second day, Kerry caught twenty > fish and again W came back empty handed. When Kerry > brought back 25 fish on day three and W still hadn't > caught any, Bush got worried and telephoned Cheney > for advice. > > "He's probably cheating," suggested the VP. > > "I hadn't thought of that," said W. "You're probably > right. What do we do?" > > Cheney suggested that, instead of going fishing the > next day, Bush follow Kerry to see what he was > doing. > > > At the end of day 4, Bush called Cheney up and told > him, "you were right, Dick, the bastard is > cheating." > > > "What's he doing?" asked Cheney. > > > "He's cutting holes in the ice!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 19:55:10 -0600 From: "Steve Loubert" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: For US-based IC-ers: a last-ditch plea....... From: Andrew Walkingshaw > On Wed, Nov 03, 2004 at 07:07:49PM -0700, Paul Ye wrote: > > > You really should feel guilt about writing me in my country > > about a problem that exists in yours. > > It is exactly this attitude which is the problem, and why the US now > appears to be incapable of being a good international neighbour. > > Kyoto Treaty, anyone? > International Criminal Court, anyone? Landmine Treaty, anyone? UN population fund, anyone? The 1972 anti-ballistic missile treaty, anyone? Geneva Convention, anyone? Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, anyone? UN conference on small arms, anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 22:40:37 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fuck:,George wins.................. In a message dated 11/3/04 5:57:44 PM, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: << I hope you all stand behind our president,it'll be easier to push him over a cliff if we do.............welcome to the united church of america,oh boy,what did we do to deserve this?now i'm really depressed.Ari >> ditto. in his speech to those of us who voted for kerry, mr bush says he'll do all he can to earn our trust. well, i have a long list, but he can start by removing his friggin deity from my throat. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2004 04:39:39 +0000 (GMT) From: Monochromatic Man Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fuck:,George wins.................. First off, don't blame me, I voted for Kerry. (perhaps a new catch phrase?) I was very surprised to hear that Franklin county in Ohio (Columbus) went for Kerry. I did notice a slight delay when I cast my vote, but nothing like some others around the state. I think there may have been some "stallers". People (republicans?)who actually hung around the voting booth for far longer than they should have in an attempt to discourage voters waiting in line. I noticed several people in the booth before myself and were still there after I left. Maybe I should have given all of my weekends up to volunteer. Next time we'll just have to try harder and pick a candidate that people actually like. It is ONLY four more years. ;-) I did find a left wing talk radio network: http://www.airamericaradio.com/ Some good stuff here. Al Franken can be quite amusing. If there isn't an affiliate station in your area you can listen online. The democrats may have lost the election, but the fight isn't over yet. Now is the time for us to regroup and plan for the future. Maybe our comrades in the UK can help us on this as well. When Dubya talks, Tony Blair listens. You can change that. Throw on some Gang of Four records and take your country back! WND3 --- Eardrumbuz@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/3/04 5:57:44 PM, > threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > > << I hope you all stand behind our president,it'll > be > easier to push him over a cliff if we > do.............welcome to the united church of > america,oh boy,what did we do to deserve this?now > i'm > really depressed.Ari >> > > ditto. in his speech to those of us who voted for > kerry, mr bush says he'll > do all he can to earn our trust. well, i have a long > list, but he can start by > removing his friggin deity from my throat. > > -paul c.d. > ===== Visit my sites for music downloads: http://home.earthlink.net/~xj23/ http://home.earthlink.net/~2signs/ http://home.netcom.com/~keepleft/ ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 23:43:30 -0500 From: k erickson Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: The road ahead is quite uncertain... On Thursday, Nov 4, 2004, Jason Rogers wrote: > I like the way that he stood up to a dead-on-arrival United Nations. > The speech that Bush made to the U.N. on September 2002 was pretty > much the cornerstone for my decision to vote for him again. The > things that have happened under Kofi Annan's watch over the past > fifteen years or so are inexcusable...the Oil-For-Food fiasco with > Iraq, genocides in Rwanda, etc. That organization is simply not > willing to enforce resolutions anymore. In the words of a law > enforcement officer that I used to work with, "A Law Without Penalty > Is Mere Advice." what happens to an international organisation like the UN when the most powerful & influential member routinely works against it, undermines it? then a US president 'stood up to' the weakened UN, and it impressed you? obviously the US has no interest in engaging fully with the UN, or supporting its ideals, which are purportedly the same ideals as the US. instead it will be a realpolitikal tool...kept weak enough to justify US exercises of power worldwide, perhaps used legitimately when possible. many conservative writers have used the UN as a whipping boy recently, and your comment echoes theirs, but i think it's fallacious to hold up the UN to ideals it can never achieve because of active subversion by the US, then laud the US for snubbing the UN. arguing further, if UN actions/inactions are 'inexcusable', you imply that the UN is a legitimate organisation which should achieve its goals, should enforce its resolutions, etc; then how do you explain away the long history of US active opposition to the UN? conservative commentators have to walk a fine line sometimes to avoid revealing their true anti-democratic sentiments. UN bashing (in this manner) seems a particularly absurd tactic. yet, probably effective... kristoph. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #319 *******************************