From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #303 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, October 20 2004 Volume 07 : Number 303 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] A Houseguest's Wish: Translations of Wire's Outdoor Miner [Andrew Westmeyer ] Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... [Rex Broome ] Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] Interesting Bill Nelson reference.. [Santa Cruzer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] A Houseguest's Wish: Translations of Wire's Outdoor Miner I got it. It's much better than I thought it would be, but then again I had exceedingly low expectations. OM is not the sort of track that lends itself to multiple playings, unlike Drill. This is really for completists. I enjoyed about a third of the tracks, which is a reasonable fraction in my book. It was worth the $11. Still, I don't expect this CD to be on heavy rotation in the future. A - --- Keith Astbury wrote: > Anyone here made the purchase yet? Anyone going to? > I'm *interested* in hearing it, but I've got a feeling this'll be one > of those things that I never get round to getting. > > > The CD is US $11 and is available to pre-order right now at > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?L1B056889 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Y! Messenger - Communicate in real time. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 11:07:21 -0400 From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... er , just thought i'd mention it that the latest one of these pricey "specials" by the NME is on goth. as you'd imagine , they go for the easily digestible "corporate goth" acts so its cure/banshees/bauhaus/cave in large quantities. surprisingly they include a lot of joy division too , who i never really put in this category at all. they re-print a lot of early photos and articles , doubt i'll bother but its quite well done if you're a fat bob worshipper or similar. maybe the JD inclusion is to haul in the interpol massive , who do seem to me a lot more goth than postpunk. doubt they'd see it that way though ;-) p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:29:46 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... In a message dated 19/10/2004 17:58:33 GMT Standard Time, rexbroome@gmail.com writes: > Most key "goth" artists disavow the term, yeah? /////i guess all those horrible 90's acts like christian death and every new dead ghost made older acts frantically claim to be anything but goth (who can blame 'em? shades of paul weller and secret affair i guess). so for todays golden anorak , who first used the term goth in relation to this kind of music? p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:40:02 GMT From: "P J Kane" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... << so for todays golden anorak , who first used the term goth in relation to this kind of music? >> Johann Sebastian Bach. see: http://www.faculty.de.gcsu.edu/~rviau/gothic.music.html PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:10:50 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... In a message dated 19/10/2004 19:42:09 GMT Standard Time, postlibyan@netzero.com writes: > < this kind of music? >> > > Johann Sebastian Bach. > //////er , sorry but i missed his "batcave" period. shame , i think from the pictures i've seen he was pretty hot on the facial powder (good thing) but not so clever on the leather trousers aspect of this scene. i'm afraid an understanding of leather is de rigeur here , so that's him disqualified for a start. p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 09:58:16 -0700 From: Rex Broome Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... Paul: > maybe the JD inclusion is to haul in the interpol massive , who do seem to me a lot more goth than postpunk. doubt they'd see it that way though This comes up from time to time, and it usually gets resolved peacfully: to me, there is no goth "sound" and even by the loose, hazy definitions that get used for such thing, "Goth" cannot be counted as a musical genre. More a style of presentation, if even that. The goths and former goths within the sound of my voice then usually chime in about how it's more of a lifestyle. We generally come down on the same side of the fence. Most key "goth" artists disavow the term, yeah? - -Rex - -- "Maybe baby election twelve who I really am!" - -Miranda Mellbye Broome ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 13:07:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... > In a message dated 19/10/2004 19:42:09 GMT Standard > Time, > postlibyan@netzero.com writes: > > > < term goth in relation to > > this kind of music? >> > > > > Johann Sebastian Bach. > > - --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > > //////er , sorry but i missed his "batcave" period. > shame , i think from the > pictures i've seen he was pretty hot on the facial > powder (good thing) but not > so clever on the leather trousers aspect of this > scene. i'm afraid an > understanding of leather is de rigeur here , so > that's him disqualified for a start. > p Not nessecellery,fashion may change,but not the mu/sick,gimme the cure anyday,leather or not.anyway we don't know for sure that JS DIDN'T wear leather when not posing for a painting...................A > _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 16:20:36 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... In a message dated 19/10/2004 21:07:47 GMT Standard Time, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > Not nessecellery,fashion may change,but not the > mu/sick,gimme the cure anyday,leather or not.anyway we > don't know for sure that JS DIDN'T wear leather when > not posing for a painting................... //// cannot fault the logic of the above but you will need to prove JSB's leather boy tendencies before i can even remotely accept he invented the (rather dodgy) genre. although its a great thought. i remember trying to make a point to someone unconvinced by this whole rock n roll type thing along the lines that if beethoven was around today he wouldn't be doing classical music but rather working in whatever was the current musical style. unfortunately i think the analogy i used was that ludwig van would probably have been slipping a root vegetable down his leather trousers as part of his act , which i seem to recall was far too much of a mental leap for the cynic in question. well , i did try. p ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 14:36:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... - --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 19/10/2004 21:07:47 GMT Standard > Time, > threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > > > Not nessecellery,fashion may change,but not the > > mu/sick,gimme the cure anyday,leather or > not.anyway we > > don't know for sure that JS DIDN'T wear leather > when > > not posing for a painting................... > > //// cannot fault the logic of the above but you > will need to prove JSB's > leather boy tendencies before i can even remotely > accept he invented the (rather > dodgy) genre. although its a great thought. > > i remember trying to make a point to someone > unconvinced by this whole rock n > roll type thing along the lines that if beethoven > was around today he > wouldn't be doing classical music but rather working > in whatever was the current > musical style. unfortunately i think the analogy i > used was that ludwig van would > probably have been slipping a root vegetable down > his leather trousers as part > of his act , which i seem to recall was far too much > of a mental leap for the > cynic in question. > > well , i did try. p Totally agree,it irks me no end when the fuddy duddy's tht 'only' listen to classical music mock todays/yesterdays rock music,my argument is also that strauss was mobed when he was a young man just as todays 'stars' are,and that he/they wrote the 'pop' music of the day with the musical instruments they had 'on hand'of their day,wanna bet they'd all be using electronics if they were around now,just as stockhausen glass and arvo part do.A Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 17:49:31 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... < this kind of music? >> A good brief history of Goff here: _http://www.darkwaver.com/subculture/articles/undead.php_ (http://www.darkwaver.com/subculture/articles/undead.php) Certainly I'd agree that the first *specifically* Goth record was Bela Lugosi's dead - and Bauhaus fans were the first who actually tried to look like vampires. Scream-era Banshees (and specifically the Staircase Mystery and Playground Twist singles) drew much of the musical terrain. The Cure were nowhere near Goth at this stage (1978-78) and never specifically nailed their colours to the Goth mast. Neither did many other bands that gained a Goth following (Theatre of Hate, Killing Joke, The Birthday Party etc). The term wasn't in widespread use until probably about 1981, when the "movement" that grew up around the 2nd wave of goth bands (Southern Death Cult, Sisters of Mercy, March Violets etc) became recognised by the music press. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:46:44 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... > i remember trying to make a point to someone unconvinced by this whole rock n > roll type thing along the lines that if beethoven was around today he > wouldn't be doing classical music but rather working in whatever was the current > musical style. unfortunately i think the analogy i used was that ludwig van would > probably have been slipping a root vegetable down his leather trousers as part > of his act , which i seem to recall was far too much of a mental leap for the > cynic in question. I think you'll find that was Mozart and not Beethoven. Ludwig Van was more of a Nick Cave figure. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:13:57 GMT From: "P J Kane" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... << i think from the pictures i've seen he was pretty hot on the facial powder (good thing) but not so clever on the leather trousers aspect of this scene. i'm afraid an understanding of leather is de rigeur here , so that's him disqualified for a start. >> well, the man was German, and my understanding from Oktoberfest festivals is that the tradition male German trousers are, in fact, leather. liederhosen? those little leather pants they wear over hose.... i am sure that Bach must have worn some at some point in his life... PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:02:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: [idealcopy] Interesting Bill Nelson reference.. I was reading through some of Bill Nelson's diary entries talking about his recent tour, Be Bop Deluxe and all and was really taken by this quote: "Did some BBC radio interviews the other week: Phil Jupitus and Stuart Maconie, both really good, nice, genuine guys. Phil turned out to be a Red Noise fan...a mind blowing revelation for me. The real surprise of the day, though, was bumping into John Peel who I haven't seen for a long, long time. He was as generous and down to earth as ever and I was as dumbstruck and nervous around this legend and broadcasting icon as I ever was. A genuine hero of mine from way back. I don't know what it is about John, maybe the memory of my listening to his radio shows in the psychedelic 'sixties, when I was an excited teenager, his musical knowledge, whatever but I'm always in awe of him. He's such a genuine man and deserves all the status that people ascribe to him. The word 'authentic' comes to mind. Listening to his programmes changed the way I think about music...The man's an educator. Really lovely to meet him again after all this time." My only contact with Mr Peel is the occasional "Peel Sessions" album that I find in stores. Kind of cool to hear an "insider's" take on his place in the pop world. RJH _______________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today! http://vote.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 02:31:25 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... well, the man was German, and my understanding from Oktoberfest festivals is that the tradition male German trousers are, in fact, leather. liederhosen? those little leather pants they wear over hose.... i am sure that Bach must have worn some at some point in his life... Oh dear. Those old German stereotypes! Lederhosen are traditional Bavarian wear, not "German". Germany as a single entity did not actually exist when Bach was born in the 17th century - in fact it was not united till 1870 under Bismarck. Arguably it still isn't - Bavaria (in whose capital Munich the Oktoberfest is held) considers itself a separate state to this day, superior to the northern parts of Germany. So Bach (who came from the Eastern part of Germany) wouldn't have been seen dead in Bavarian peasant kecks, dahling! A US parallel would be expecting a Bostonian to fly a confederate flag outside his house! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Oct 2004 07:56:59 +0100 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] NME goes goth..... Franz Lizst was also subject to much fan mobbing... which alternately encouraged and then complained about. 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