From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #281 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, September 28 2004 Volume 07 : Number 281 Today's Subjects: ----------------- AW: AW: FW: [idealcopy] OT- Joy Division remakes ["Woerner Frank-Juergen"] [idealcopy] Not present in the present [Fergus Kelly ] RE: [idealcopy] OT: New Order (was: But when did it become "nu wave"?) ["Jack Alberson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:18:14 +0200 From: "Woerner Frank-Juergen" Subject: AW: AW: FW: [idealcopy] OT- Joy Division remakes - -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org > [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] Im Auftrag von Eardrumbuz@aol.com > Gesendet: Freitag, 24. September 2004 22:37 > An: idealcopy@smoe.org > Betreff: Re: AW: FW: [idealcopy] OT- Joy Division remakes > > > In a message dated 9/24/04 9:32:40 AM, > frank-juergen.woerner@siemens.com > writes: > > << LWTUA from the Wild Swans >> > > you probably meant to type just 'swans'...unless there's > another wild swans > recording out there just waiting to be rediscovered!! :o) > they probably > would've done a nice job though. how about wild swans doing > disorder or ceremony or > colony! > > -another the paul Nope, I meant the _wild_ Swans. I don't have the record (just an mp3) of it. I have at least two more LWTUA versions not mentioned on this website. regards, Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 01:59:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Not present in the present Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 13:51:24 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Duncan & Lewis "Presence" what would be a decent (cheap) place for a yank to purchase the "Presence" cd? any suggestions? ((( Best off getting it direct from allquestions - http://www.allquestions.net/catalogue.html Fifteen and a half neurons postpaid. Can't say fairer than that. Fergus __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:57:10 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New Order (was: But when did it become "nu wave"?) >> New Order almost > got it right with their last album.<< Hardly. First three or four tracks are decent, but it goes seriously downhill thereafter, reaching a career nadir with "Rock the shack". Best NO track from the sessions was the B-side of Crystal, Behind Closed Doors. >>I liked it pretty well, too, once I scraped the smelly bits of Corgan off of it. << Again I disagree - Corgan's contribution is pretty minimal (he sings the first couple of lines of one track, Turn my way, and plays some guitar). >>As in BILLY Corgan? The somewhat sulky ex-Smashing Pumpkins guy?? Well, if so that'll teach me to pay attention, I didn't know he'd done anything with'em.<< He played live with them at the comeback gig in Liverpool in 2001, and some US dates subsequently. >>I speak as someone who quite likes the NOISE that the Pumpkins muster up, but I must admit, the lyrics can get on my tits somewhat..........>> Clearly BC is a bit of a tosser - a "baldy twat in a dress" as Sharon Osborne described him when she managed the SPs. But the SPs' back catalogue stands up pretty well. Zwan is probably best forgotten though... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:00:28 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Never boils >>In terms of a release of Watched Kettle and other output from Bruce's late friend, Bruce only mentioned a vague idea of Touch doing something, so I wouldn't hold your breath. Stick on the kettle instead :)<< In case you were wondering what this was, it's simply a recording of an electric kettle coming to the boil. Of course, as my old ma says, "a watched kettle never boils". Oh, the irony. No wonder it appeals to BCG. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:59:01 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New New Order >>> I'd prefer them to release something new! > > Anyone (Mark?) know what the state of play is here? > << I'd heard it was a more basic 'rock' album than Get Ready. To be expected really - mastery of clunky '80s technology does not easily translate into mastery of the pro tools world of possibilities. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:32:16 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New New Order On Mon, Sep 27, 2004 at 11:59:01AM -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > >>> I'd prefer them to release something new! > > > > Anyone (Mark?) know what the state of play is here? > > << > I'd heard it was a more basic 'rock' album than Get Ready. To be expected > really - mastery of clunky '80s technology does not easily translate into > mastery of the pro tools world of possibilities. This has been something hovering through my brain for quite a bit; it ties into Wire's recent work, I think, to an extent - the idea that cheap and (relatively, in the UK at least) ubiquitous computing power is a source for an interesting change in the way music can be made. In the 80s, sampling and so forth was hugely important, but it was still specialised and esoteric; from Fairlight to AKAI it was still dedicated, complex hardware and highly specialist. Now you can get a bit of software that runs on the PC you (or your parents, or whoever) can pick up off the back of a lorry for fifty quid second-hand, and it has all the power - or more - of the studios that cost a bundle in the 80s, both for audio and for synthesis. What I'm trying to get at, I guess, is that you can make a record *really* cheaply - and it doesn't have the sonic drawbacks that maybe a four-track record from the 70s would. Dance music cottoned onto this first, but it seems to now be pervasive. Am I going off the pretentiousness deep-end here? - - A - -- Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ Programme Controller, CUR1350 http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk Random Walk ::: Wednesday, 10pm ::: cur1350.co.uk ::: is this music? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:41:23 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New Order (was: But when did it become "nu wave"?) > Hardly. First three or four tracks are decent, but it goes seriously > downhill thereafter, reaching a career nadir with "Rock the shack". Best NO track > from the sessions was the B-side of Crystal, Behind Closed Doors. As always I will stand up and be counted. I think GR is great!! > Zwan is probably best forgotten though... Not a BC fan by any means, but I thought that single Honestly was rather good. Mr Contrary np teardrop explodes - zoology (great new rarities album) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:36:59 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Flocking those Seagulls (was: But when did it become "nu wave... Miles "How about Simon F's GUN?" Goosens Anorak award if you can identify the achingly tenuous link to Wire ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:32:32 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Flocking those Seagulls (was: But when did it become "nu wave... The first one apparently remains the property of the record company and thus retains its craptacular late-'80s CD sound... Sounds like the perfect production for its craptacular songs! Mark ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 12:13:23 -0500 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Flocking those Seagulls (was: But when did it become "nu wave... At 12:36 PM 9/27/2004 -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >Miles "How about Simon F's GUN?" Goosens > > >Anorak award if you can identify the achingly tenuous link to Wire ;-) Oh, that's a layup: Simon F -> in Interferon w/Simon G (who also plays, IIRC, on GUN/GUN CONTROL) -> Simon G plays on Colin's A-Z -> Wire later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 11:44:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] O.T: Say what? http://tinyurl.com/6genh Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:21:48 -0500 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: New Order (was: But when did it become "nu wave"?) I would be so bold as to say that at least the first five tracks on Get Ready are brilliant, as well as "Someone Like You". "Rock the Shack" was shite, though. I think the album would have benefited from the inclusion of "Behind Closed Doors" as well as "Here To Stay", which I thought was the best NO track in many years (even if it was a collaboration with the Chems). "Hardly. First three or four tracks are decent, but it goes seriously downhill thereafter, reaching a career nadir with "Rock the shack". Best NO track from the sessions was the B-side of Crystal, Behind Closed Doors." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 16:11:01 -0700 From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: New Order (was: But when did it become "nu wave"?) That is bold! Strangely enough I am listening to the LA gig for this album... I guess there was an in-house CD of it, and it is avialable on BitTorrent. Though better than the San Francisco show (this band does love Los Angeles for some reason), I still cannot get my head (ready?) around some of the new songs. I think that the lyrics were the most cringing they have (he has) ever written. Instrumentally, I think the album works on many more songs, including Someone Like You... though that does not save Rock the Shack. The album version of Turn My Way does work... surprisingly to me, but the live version is terribly shite, along with BC messing up LWTUA. Atmosphere at this gig was very nice... one of their best live versions, but I think that they shined with Heart and Soul and Isolation in Joy Division dept. Prior to that, She's Lost Control at Slough Fulcrum Centre was the highlight (for me). I kind of figure that New Order casts aside old fans with each release (Blue Monday & Confusion anyone), and this is the first time that they dwindled my interest in them. But, Mark is right... Behind Closed Doors is the most dynamic/fuller song they did during this batch. If we apply the Wire standard of getting together and doing something that raises the bar, this is the song. Sadly, the only song. Regret was the previous one, and the album was a bit mixed as well. I was so suprised that Baker produced that sound from them. It was not New Order by numbers... it is as they worked on it ;) cheers! - -fernando On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 10:21:48 -0500, Jack Alberson wrote: > I would be so bold as to say that at least the first five tracks on Get > Ready are brilliant, as well as "Someone Like You". "Rock the Shack" > was shite, though. I think the album would have benefited from the > inclusion of "Behind Closed Doors" as well as "Here To Stay", which I > thought was the best NO track in many years (even if it was a > collaboration with the Chems). > > "Hardly. First three or four tracks are decent, but it goes seriously > downhill thereafter, reaching a career nadir with "Rock the shack". Best > NO track > from the sessions was the B-side of Crystal, Behind Closed Doors." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:15:18 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: popped & waved I always thought American record execs came up with the 'new wave' term as in America 'punk' is prison slang for rent boy. Hence the concept of 'punk rock' not playing too well in the bible belt. In the UK it became a convenient term for new, punk-influenced acts, or indeed old, non-prog, pub-rock bandwagon jumpers who didn't fit the punk template. As for powerpop, clearly the term had an established meaning in the US via early 70s bands like the Rapsberries, playing an amped-up version of a basic Beatles 4-piece beat combo template. However, the term hadn't really been used much in the UK - the early 70s wewre dominated by Glam bands, and US-style 'powerpop' never caught on (being seen as little more than 60s retro bands). Glam never caught on in the US; I guess the powerpoppers were seen as a continuation, not a revival, of pure 'British invasion' 60s guitar pop. Nevertheless, in the wake of 'new wave', there was a specific attempt at a UK 'powerpop' movement around 1978, which was a conscious attempt to fill the emerging post-punk vacuum with Beatlesy pop bands. These included The Pleasers, The Boyfriends, Tonight, The Jags, etc - while some of the more tuneful pub rockers (The Motors, The Records) and rapidly softening punks (The Rich Kids) also got lumped in for good measure. The 'movement' didn't last, though I guess it clarified the 'powerpop' terminology from then on... I prefer the Idealcopy-approved Nice New Wave term for all this stuff - some of it is very decent punk-pop, though hardly earth-shattering. The 'powerpop movement' also prefigured the 79 mod revival in that it made dressing in suits and skinny ties and playing fast, slightly edgy guitar pop was a viable option for an aspiring beat combo, especially if you threw some obvious Jam/Who/Small Faces elements into the mix. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2004 20:10:36 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: popped & waved MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > I always thought American record execs came up with the 'new wave' term as > in America 'punk' is prison slang for rent boy. Hence the concept of 'punk > rock' not playing too well in the bible belt. > Well for a personal take on this - here's how I remember it. I was in Junior High/High School in Seattle in the Northwest of the U.S. when Punk started happening. At that time, we had just fought the disco wars - - and you had to listen to "Hard Rock" or you were one of the "disco" losers. The radio stations used to play up this "war" - "Death Before Disco" and all that. This led to Foreigner, Kansas, Styx, Foghat, etc. coming to popularity to fill the void left by the death of disco. AC/DC were the ultimate - your parents hated them. As I remember, mine weren't too keen on Led Zeppelin's Houses of the Holy album cover either. (^_^) (As a side note - I was a huge Beatles fan at this point - basically until my senior year of High School when I became fairly new wave, with an odd prog-rock detour. There was always a subgroup in school that listened to Beatles non-stop. That was me - didn't care what anyone else was listening to - just Beatles.) Then, we started to hear - via news reports on TV, radio and magazine coverage - of a very strange phenomenon in England called "Punk Rock". It was absolutely mystifying to middle America - we had no idea why anyone in their right mind would wear a Mohawk and scream. And the Sex Pistols? What the heck was that? Swearing? Swastikas? Heavens no! I remember the illicit thrill I got when radio stations would screw up and play the album version of "Heart Of Glass" by Blondie, and you'd hear the words "Pain in the ass." That was big stuff back then! So - in order to have something of a career, it was very important to distance yourself from the Punk Rock Anarchic Loonies. in England - even if you were playing Punk Rock. So, I started hearing the term "New Wave". Seattle even had a number of New Wave stations - KJET, KYYX, and I think KZAM - were all playing New Wave/Punk Rock. We even had a number of "baby wave" bands in town. Mondo Vita - looked like a weird version of Oingo Boingo, Moving Parts, an embryonic Young Fresh Fellows, The Heats, The Cowboys, Blackwood/Laird, 54'40 (canadian, but hey) - they all were very active in the Seattle scene at this time. Then - *poof* - interest wained, new wave started losing money, record labels left the area, and Seattle stayed quiet until two boys from Aberdeen, WA started a little band called Nirvana. I do remember seeing D.O.A., Rude Boy, and the Decline of Western Civilization (L.A. Punk movie - very influential) in the art house theater circuit in College, and realizing I had missed the entire point of punk. I actually became a big fan, but by 1987, it was way, way over. Two other notes - I do remember picking up The Clash's "Combat Rock" and thinking that it was a pretty good album, except for the strange production. But, I couldn't understand London Calling, or Sandinista at all - they were just too weird. Now, of course, London Calling and Sandinista are two of my faves, and Combat Rock seems kinda tame in comparison. I also remember starting college and being fascinated by this strange guitar band from Athens, Georgia called R.E.M. with a lead singer who mumbled. That led to a brief "Athens and vicinity" fixation - - picked up a lot of records by Let's Active, Pylon, Oh-OK, Fetchin Bones - but that scene seemed to end after a while too. Cheers, Paul P.S. Sorry if this rambles a bit - I have a 100F fever right now - caught a heck of a cold. P.P.S. Forgot to mention how Wire fit into this picture. Basically - I first heard them on an Enigma records sampler circa 1986, then saw videos by them on a PBS video show called "VideoSpin". (Which I taped - nyah nyah nyah! The videos were Could You? by He Said, Eardrum Buzz and In Vivo.) My friend Erin, who was a massive Rush fan (and still is, by all accounts) also was interested in them because Neil Peart or one of the other band members mentioned them in an interview. This would have been the 1986 Wire phase - I think that's why that period is still my fave. Didn't hear the 1977 Wire phase until much, much later. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #281 *******************************