From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #204 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, July 11 2004 Volume 07 : Number 204 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] OT: Trachtenburgs ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: wonderful radio one/DLT ["j.hobson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: wonderful radio one/DLT [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop ["Tim ****" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Trachtenburgs To the ICA last night to see the Trachtenburg Family Slideshow Players. First on though are The Chalets. Two fetching women in leopardskin print dresses, pill box hats and mesh veils are centrestage behind Korg, Yamaha and xylophone. The guitarist on the left is wearing a T shirt of the same material. There's a pretty good bassist on the right (although he swaps with the guitarist as the gig goes on) and a thumping drummer. The women shashay behind the keyboards and sing in unison. The effect is something like the B-52s meet Ladytron and is bewitching. From their accents it's a fair bet they come from Ireland. Better than the Corrs. I think it's fair to say that the Trachtenburgs are a unique experience. Dad Jason plays keyboards and guitar and sings - and talks non-stop in a half-stuttery way between songs. He's virtually a stand-up comedian. He looks like a cross between the father from Rugrats and Robert Crumb - the second time (after Ron Mael) that I've compared a rock artist to Crumb this month, possibly a worrying development. Mom Tina has big hair, makes the clothes and shows the slides (which I'll come back to). Daughter Rachel (who is ten and looks like Christina Ricci in the Addams Family) drums and sings backing vocals. She is also in a strange way the heart of the band despite the fact that Dad effectively does everything. The idea, as you may know, is that the family buy up old slide shows from estate and garage sales and make up songs about them. And then play the songs while showing the slides. On its own this high concept was enough to get me to this gig and frankly it doesn't disappoint. The effect is almost always very funny and Jason has a genuine wit in bringing together songs based around apparently disconnected slides. Highlights include Mountain Trip to Japan 1959, Eggs (why someone took slide close-ups of ordinary Eggs is a mystery but there you go) and a rock opera based around a series of management statements made my McDonalds in 1977. There's a natural amusement in seeing old slides (well, sometimes) and when it's accompanied by clever songs it works excellently. And this would be enough but Rachel tips it over into something more. Half the time the kid looks frankly spaced out. Her drumming style is rudimentary but what can we expect - she can certainly hold a tune down. There's a great moment when she first sits down and finds the mike is waaay above her head - she can't even reach it standing up. At one point she calls Dad over, a whispered conversation ensues and she disappears backstage presumably for a toilet break. She interjects Dad's ramblings towards the end to point out to the audience that there's some cool merchandise for sale in the foyer - including dolls she's made. Watching her you can't help but wonder what the experience is doing to her. She's certainly going to grow up to be an interesting character. Their upcoming tour dates shows them playing two weeks at the Edinburgh festival, which is a stroke of genius - they will be reviewed in every paper in the land. A fascinating and enjoyable evening. Another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:04:02 +0100 From: "j.hobson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: wonderful radio one/DLT - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim" Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 1:45 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: wonderful radio one/DLT > The only saving grace of todays wunnerful one eff-emm....is that at > least Simon Bates isn't on it...or indeed anywhere near any mainstream > media. > Bit of bad news on that front. Classic FM, the station that rotes about 100 tunes endlessly, has him loosing listners every morning. Best place for him ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 17:44:46 +0100 From: "j.hobson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop I'm amazed to find anyone thinks that music from about 72 to 76 should not be stuck in some musical Sargasso sea! (or better still the Bermuda Triangle) The Seventies was my formative years, I was old enough to catch the embers of the hippie era and young enough to be a punk. At that time music was far more important a place in youth culyure than it is now so I consumed too large quantities of it. By 75, in common with many comtemporaries I'd given buying the dreadful dross that constituted about 99% of what one heard. And remember that apart from Peel there were few other outlets for music which wasn't Top 30. - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 4:08 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop > > wow.....do i feel sorry for you....what a shame....LOADS of great music in > > all genres (especially rock, pop, and soul) back then, most of which still > > stands up to this day....you really missed out>>> No I didn't. I heard most of it. You are forgetting that the biggest musical genre of this period was....Country. This was the great era of Dolly et al standing by their man. > > and this is just for starters and right at surface level...how about: > > Brian Eno Eno blossomed in the Punk era so I'd not leave him in the Bermuda Triangle > Roxy Music 2 good albums then decades of MOR dross > David Bowie Hunky Dory is 71 and Station to Station 76. Personally I don't rate inbetween. > Parliament Funkadelic Hardly popular! > Barry White EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. The Walrus lives, surely not. Wot about that fat bloke from Greece in that case > Earth Wind & Fire Mowtown's last decent signing but there were in business before the Bermuda Triangle > Black Sabbath Are you serious? Again they are a late 60s/early 70s band > Genesis Tried listening to any Genesis record lately. Come on Punk was designed to neuter this stuff. > Yes Thank god for Punk. This lot of navel gazers were what punk consigned to a deep mineshaft. Please keep them there! > Pink Floyd Again they are a late 60s band. > Gladys Knight & The Pips Well past her prime by 72 > Bob Marley & The Wailers Really only took off in the punk era if we are talking popular music. > Lee Perry produced acts such as Junior Murvin, Max Romeo, The Silvertones,the > Heptones > reggae classics produced Channel One Studios > the underwater dub productions of the late great King Tubby > Hardly popular music. Even Peel ignored this music at the time >Miles Davis > Herbie Hancock We are talking Pop and you are running out of names > Carlos Santana He never produced a decent album after Abraxas or whatever and that was 1970 > > the list goes on and on..... No it doesn't. In fact most of your pop list expired when a combination of punk/new wave/disco/early rap washed away into the footnotes of musical history. Oh to be alive when the Pistols/Ramones/wire turned up and to be young was Bliss! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:19:50 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 > I heard he played on Kewpies like Watermelon by Urusei Yatsura Best Pavement/SY clones around! Haven't heard 'em in a while. Heard they broke up a few years ago, true? Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 13:29:18 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: wonderful radio one/DLT and now we've induced a 2 hour documentary tonight about the "death of saturday night TV" , featuring large chunks of n.edmonds esq. i feel queasy. p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:03:07 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop As someone who grew up at the same time I'm not sure I buy into this argument. Sure, the stuff that was popular may not have been up to much (it rarely is) but there was a hell of a lot of good stuff in the undertow. Many of my favourite albums stem from the years from 72-76 and looking back I don't feel a jot of embarrassment about them: Robert Wyatt - Rock Bottom - a timeless masterpiece; Six(!) Van der Graaf Generator/Peter Hammill albums - and these are the apex of his work; Joni Mitchell - The Hissing of Summer Lawns - overlooked in her canon, but again a remarkable, mature work - as indeed is Neil Young's On the Beach from a similar time and place; The stuff released on Virgin - Henry Cow, Hatfield and the North, Slapp Happy; Krautrock - Faust, Can, Neu!, Tangerine Dream all producing radical work; Patti Smith - Horses - a harbinger of punk; Bowie - can't agree that Diamond Dogs and Aladdin Sane represent lesser work Sure, much of this stuff had no media outlet other than Peel but one tracked it down through friends, the NME, listening in record booths and the occasional blind purchase. I know that your argument is more about what was popular then but do we (i.e. us idealcopyists) ever just live in the Pop world? And for every Sweet and Middle of the Road record there was always something to enjoy - - Glitter (whom I really liked), Abba, some soul stuff, Mott the Hoople, Bowie's and Roxy's singles. But the pop world and the rock world just didn't mix back then - Zeppelin didn't release UK singles remember. There was no need to bemoan the state of the singles chart when one didn't look there for inspiration. I would agree that by 76 some sort of torpor had set in as represented by stuff like Tales from Topographic Oceans, ELP, Houses of the Holy and Floyd's increasing megalomania which is why I welcomed punk with open arms. And singles became the prime artform again for a while. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of j.hobson Sent: 10 July 2004 17:45 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop I'm amazed to find anyone thinks that music from about 72 to 76 should not be stuck in some musical Sargasso sea! (or better still the Bermuda Triangle) The Seventies was my formative years, I was old enough to catch the embers of the hippie era and young enough to be a punk. At that time music was far more important a place in youth culyure than it is now so I consumed too large quantities of it. By 75, in common with many comtemporaries I'd given buying the dreadful dross that constituted about 99% of what one heard. And remember that apart from Peel there were few other outlets for music which wasn't Top 30. - ----- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:06:24 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 On Sat, Jul 10, 2004 at 07:19:50PM +0200, Bart van Damme wrote: > > I heard he played on Kewpies like Watermelon by Urusei Yatsura > > Best Pavement/SY clones around! Haven't heard 'em in a while. > Heard they broke up a few years ago, true? True, but three of them are now in Projekt A-ko (http://www.projekta-ko.co.uk/). - - A - -- Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ Programme Controller, CUR1350 http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk Random Walk ::: Wednesday, 10pm ::: cur1350.co.uk ::: is this music? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:59:28 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 > There's a thin line between late OJ and Edwyn's solo career. The later OJ > line-ups had no original members apart from Ed and featured the likes of former > Vic sideman (and failed Bernie Rhodes starlet) Johnny Britton and future M > Person Paul Heard. A group in name only - it was the Edwyn Collins show. Well I suspect it always was, thought the best track on the latter-day Texas Fever* mini-LP IMO was Punch Drunk, which IIRC was written by Malcolm Ross. *only OJ LP I ever bought. And what a gem it was! > to me its just pastiche with no soul at all. << I don't think it's pastiche overall. Sure he borrows from his influences - be they pop, punk, or country, but the end result is always unmistakably Edwyn. The one I really love though is the flop follow-up to Gorgeous George - I'm Not Following You. One of my fave albums from the late90's. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:02:51 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 > I don't think it's pastiche overall. Sure he borrows from his influences - > be they pop, punk, or country, but the end result is always unmistakably > Edwyn. The one I really love though is the flop follow-up to Gorgeous > George - I'm Not Following You. One of my fave albums from the late90's. Oh yeah. He wrote a song that went "Don't wanna live in an adidas world with the adidas boys and the adidas girls". Which is another reason to love him! Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:11:02 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] kings of the wire frontier > > Did you not see that programme in the early 90's where Wayne Hussey met a > > fan, and they sat an watched the telly together. Now that was excruciating! > > > > Yes I did! What on earth was that on? Something on Def 2 springs to mind.... Naked City! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 21:45:17 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] [OT] Map ref... Thanks Andrew - an extraordinary site. It's good to know there are people out there doing this sort of obsessive thing. And our Map Ref looks a little unprepossessing doesn't it? Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Walkingshaw Sent: 09 July 2004 15:52 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] Map ref... http://confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=41&lon=-93 - - A - -- Dept of Earth Sciences, Univ. Cambridge ::: http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk ::: http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ Random Walk, 10pm Wednesdays, CUR1350 ::: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:44:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop - --- "j.hobson" wrote: >>I'm amazed to find anyone thinks that music from about 72 to 76 should not be stuck in some musical Sargasso sea! (or better still the BermudaTriangle) The Seventies was my formative years, I was old enough to catch the embers of the hippie era and young enough to be a punk.<< Bowie was around then and,even though I don't own any of his stuff,he was pretty good for his time........ >>At that time music was far more important a place in youth culture than it is now so I consumed too large quantities of it.<< Not too sure about this,maybe you don't listen to music as much as you used to,but most kids i know are well into it. Yes there was a lot of dross during the period you talk of and I've oft said thank god for johnny lydon et.al,but there was a lot of dross then too,STILL IS....I 'grew up' on '60's music,most of which I wouldn't waste my time on today,still to say it was ALL dross is going a bit far.>> >>By 75, in common with many comtemporaries I'd given buying the dreadful dross that constituted about 99% of what one heard.<< Me Too And remember that apart from Peel there were few other outlets for music which wasn't Top 30. Agreed,ASTEROID!!! > ----- > Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 4:08 PM > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop >>wow.....do i feel sorry for you....what a shame....LOADS of great music in all genres (especially rock, pop, and soul) back then, most of which still stands up to this day....you really missed out>> No I didn't. I heard most of it. You are forgetting that the biggest musical genre of this period was Country. This was the great era of Dolly et al standing by their man.<< sure country was popular then,but it hardly took any prizes..... > > and this is just for starters and right at surface level...how about: Brian Eno Eno blossomed in the Punk era so I'd not leave him in the Bermuda Triangle Roxy Music 2 good albums then decades of MOR dross David Bowie hunky Dory is 71 and Station to Station 76. Parliament Funkadelic >>Hardly popular!<< they were in europe. > > Barry White (you joking here robert?) > EHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. The Walrus lives, surely not. Wot about that fat bloke from Greece in that case Earth Wind & Fire (not my cuppa tea) Mowtown's last decent signing but there were in business before the Bermuda Triangle > > Black Sabbath Are you serious? Again they are a late 60s/early 70s band > > Genesis<< loved 'em back then,'till peter left them,wouldn't give them the time of day today.<< Tried listening to any Genesis record lately. Come on Punk was designed to neuter this stuff. >> Yes<< swearing not allowed here robert.,YES!? ya gotta be kiddin'....... > < Hardly popular music. Even Peel ignored this music > at the time Miles Davis Herbie Hancock We are talking Pop and you are running out of names> Carlos Santana<< (yawn) He never produced a decent album after Abraxas or whatever and that was 1970 (agree) the list goes on and on..... > >> No it doesn't.(YES it does) >>In fact most of your pop list expired when a combination of punk/new wave/disco/early rap washed away into the footnotes of musical history.<< and where are many of the punk groups of yesteryear today then eh?<< > Oh to be alive when the Pistols/Ramones/wire turned up and to be young was Bliss! STILL IS,or so they tell me,though I am somewhat taken aback by the amount of kids here in america that listen to their parents old 60's/early '70's music,should be a law against it. Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:54:54 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop In a message dated 10/07/2004 19:05:51 GMT Daylight Time, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: which is why I welcomed punk with open arms. And singles became the prime artform again for a while. Another the Keith I totally agree Keith. Great e-mail.I think the single buying phenomenon I undertook from age 16 is spot on regarding what you're saying.Before that I was a prog rock junkie & just about exclusively bought LP's (remember them ?) with gatefold covers & Roger Dean & Patrick Woodroofe designs.Two years later I am walking 3 miles into town to buy (with scraped together cash & no bus fare home) the new Buzzcocks single (one every 6 weeks it seemed) & the new Stranglers 7". Chris NP - (in reminiscing mood) Caravan - Cunning Stunts ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:04:48 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] 1st fast, 2nd nature, 3rd degree I'm racking my brains to try and recall how 154 sounded to me in 79. As I've said before I'd picked up on Pink Flag on release and immediately loved it. Chairs Missing was a slight disappointment after that. But 154 was immediately appealing. The first side especially was one that I played non-stop for a time. I loved the doomy-ness of I Should Have Known Better and A Touching Display. The Other Window was riveting - there hadn't been many previous songs written in such a short-story mode. Two People in a Room seemed quintessential in its distanced, sarky artiness. Map Ref was the only song on Side 2 that I thought matched the whole of Side 1 (I'd still put Side 1 up there with the great sides) but it was still great stuff. Contextually, for me at the time there were four great albums in 78 - the others were The Modern Dance, Dub Housing and Metal Box. 154 fitted quite nicely into that context. It was a time of music fracturing and finding new forms now punk had blown itself out. I played 154 to a work colleague (same age as me, no evidence of decent musical taste) on a car trip last week. He'd heard me talk about them when in Edinburgh and was interested in what they sounded like. I chose 154 as the album which might cross-over best (hah!). He, naturally, didn't get on with it regarding it as depressing. But by the end of the meeting he was quoting those great, useful Wire lyrics 'I've found something no one else is looking for / I've found something that there's no use for / and what's more I'm keeping it to myself' in the context of the meeting we attended. Wire as management gurus? Another the Keith NL - The Magic Band on Peel - anyone with an interest in Beefheart who hasn't heard the Magic Band solo should tune in while you can. It's available for a few more days yet on the Radio 1 site. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Walkingshaw On Fri, Jul 09, 2004 at 09:00:40AM -0700, Fergus Kelly wrote: > ((( I often wonder what 154 would sound like if I was > hearing it for the Ist time only recently. So hard to > separate it from all the contextual factors at the > time, it's kind of like DNA now. Rooted and spread. This is (sort of) the position I'm in, as a latecomer to the party. ("154" is my favourite of the first three records). Wire, at least on CM/154, really still don't have anyone else who sounds like them; there are connections in my head to My Bloody Valentine, the "cold psychedelic" electronica of Boards of Canada's more alien moments, to some of Sonic Youth, but I know these are connections I'm forging by not having the cultural context of the time rather than anything with any substantive meaning outside my head.[1] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 10:09:45 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] totally wired Little evidence of a Wire link (or blackness) in this review Alistair: http://www.leedsmusicscene2.co.uk/article/2270/ And the gig's on Sunday, rather than Saturday in case you were thinking of heading down tonight. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Alistair Tear Sent: 09 July 2004 09:32 To: Wire (E-mail) Subject: [idealcopy] totally wired Any of you caught this new band called Black Wire? They are on the bill with Kaito at a free gig at the Garage tomorrow This name would only make sense if they were a Wire tribute band who were black... A ************************************************************************ * The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London Street Management hereby excludes any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this e-mail and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify postmaster@Streetmanagement.org.uk. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ************************************************************************ * ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 09:45:21 +0800 From: "Tim ****" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop <> Deja vu, only it was The Adverts 'One Chord Wonders' 7" & later i actually did the same route for a Stukas Gig at the local Tech Col' (Technical College) would you believe... 'Save pocket money - buy Punk 7"s' mantra was the goal. Tim NP TG - RETG CD - ----Original Message Follows---- From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com To: steeleknight@lineone.net, xerif@dsl.pipex.com, idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 18:54:54 EDT In a message dated 10/07/2004 19:05:51 GMT Daylight Time, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: which is why I welcomed punk with open arms. And singles became the prime artform again for a while. Another the Keith I totally agree Keith. Great e-mail.I think the single buying phenomenon I undertook from age 16 is spot on regarding what you're saying.Before that I was a prog rock junkie & just about exclusively bought LP's (remember them ?) with gatefold covers & Roger Dean & Patrick Woodroofe designs.Two years later I am walking 3 miles into town to buy (with scraped together cash & no bus fare home) the new Buzzcocks single (one every 6 weeks it seemed) & the new Stranglers 7". Chris NP - (in reminiscing mood) Caravan - Cunning Stunts _________________________________________________________________ = Price FOXTEL Digital Installation On-Line Limited Offer: http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;9412514;9681905;p?http://www.foxtel.tv ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #204 *******************************