From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #202 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, July 9 2004 Volume 07 : Number 202 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] totally wired [Alistair Tear ] RE: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" ] Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 [MarkBursa@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:31:54 +0100 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] totally wired Any of you caught this new band called Black Wire? They are on the bill with Kaito at a free gig at the Garage tomorrow This name would only make sense if they were a Wire tribute band who were black... A ************************************************************************* The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London Street Management hereby excludes any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this e-mail and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify postmaster@Streetmanagement.org.uk. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:01:27 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 Someone - Dan I think - was asking about a post-punk article in one of the monthlies. Found a copy of this email. Hope it's the right one! Don't think anyone's mentioned the "12 Steps To Building The Ultimate Post-Punk Collection" article in this months Q. There at no. 2 was Chairs Missing. "Emerging in the midst of punk, Wire were immediately cast as outsiders. Older than their peers, the Home Counties quartet delivered cerebral pop that resisted easy catagorisation. At the time, CM's other-worldliness was sneeringly compared with Pink Floyd, but the impact of songs such as Outdoor Miner and I Am The Fly later cast a heavy spell over Blur and Elastica. Key track: Outdoor Miner The others - with key track in brackets were. 1.. Pere Ubu - Modern Dance (Non-alignment Pact) 2.. CM 3.. Devo - Are We Not Men? (Mongoloid) 4.. Magazine - Real Life (Shot By Both Sides) 5.. PIL - Metal Box (Poptones) 6.. The Cure - Three Imaginary Boys (10:15 Saturday Night) 7.. Gang of Four - Entertainment (At Home He's A Tourist) 8.. Joy Division - Closer (Decades) 9.. Talking Heads - Remain In Light (Once In A Lifetime) 10.. Orange Juice - You Can't Hide Your Love Forever (Falling & Laughing) 11.. Hot Hot Heat - Make Up The Breakdown (Bandages) 12.. Franz Ferdinand - s/t (Take Me Out) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 11:29:02 +0100 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 - ---I remember this being discussed. It's very funny to see Franz F just bunged in there for no apparent reason! Bruno - -----Original Message----- From: Keith Astbury [mailto:keith.indoorminer@virgin.net] Sent: 09 July 2004 11:01 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 Someone - Dan I think - was asking about a post-punk article in one of the monthlies. Found a copy of this email. Hope it's the right one! Don't think anyone's mentioned the "12 Steps To Building The Ultimate Post-Punk Collection" article in this months Q. There at no. 2 was Chairs Missing. "Emerging in the midst of punk, Wire were immediately cast as outsiders. Older than their peers, the Home Counties quartet delivered cerebral pop that resisted easy catagorisation. At the time, CM's other-worldliness was sneeringly compared with Pink Floyd, but the impact of songs such as Outdoor Miner and I Am The Fly later cast a heavy spell over Blur and Elastica. Key track: Outdoor Miner The others - with key track in brackets were. 1.. Pere Ubu - Modern Dance (Non-alignment Pact) 2.. CM 3.. Devo - Are We Not Men? (Mongoloid) 4.. Magazine - Real Life (Shot By Both Sides) 5.. PIL - Metal Box (Poptones) 6.. The Cure - Three Imaginary Boys (10:15 Saturday Night) 7.. Gang of Four - Entertainment (At Home He's A Tourist) 8.. Joy Division - Closer (Decades) 9.. Talking Heads - Remain In Light (Once In A Lifetime) 10.. Orange Juice - You Can't Hide Your Love Forever (Falling & Laughing) 11.. Hot Hot Heat - Make Up The Breakdown (Bandages) 12.. Franz Ferdinand - s/t (Take Me Out) ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 04:01:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] kings of the wire frontier/ Glasto coverage bitchin' Keith Astbury wrote: > but one of the time-filling ideas they had was about 15 minutes of interviews with tim booth's fans about their >thoughts on the great man. for fuck's sake , i have never seen such dull TV in all >my life> to top it all , tim did an acoustic set in the "studio". And there was me interested in what his solo stuff sounded like! As for Glastonbury, I thought Goldfrapp were good. Made me get Black Cherry out again. Still sounds fab! /////// Goldfrapp *were* a TV highlight, I thought though I thought Jo Whiley's post-gig tirade about some woman's visible cellulite was an extraordinary piece of bitching. Whatever happened to the 'sisterhood' , Jo....;-) I was *really* hacked off about the non-appearance of Television on my....erm...television, on Sunday night, after reading excitedly in the Grauniad's TV mag that "Skinny New Yorkers Television will be noodling away". Oh no they weren't. I was curious as to whether or not they showed up on the un-receivable* digital channels, and I guess the remark about them being axed due to 'bad sound'(??) kinda answers that. Left awash in a sea of mediocrity pouring out of the tube, I was left wondering just *why* it is that the Beeb go to all the trouble of showing up at Europe's largest and most diverse festival, with a multiplicity of different stages and other 'venues' on site, and then feel compelled to give us 'studio sessions' by some acts accoustically, some of whom aren't even on at the festival. WHY?? Is there not enough live music on stage in front of actual crowds to choose from? Why bother with these cod-accoustic interludes? Given that they have limited airtime, I would've thought that they'd spend it wisely cramming as much of the main action in as possible. Bah! I *wish* the rights to this festival's TV coverage would revert to Channel Four, who IIRC had the franchise in the early to mid 90's, and who did a far better job of the coverage. Why did they need to repeat so many clips? I swear that by Sunday night I'd have gotten bolshy at someone merely humming that Franz Ferdinand out-of-tune strut ("Take me out"?), and if I had to see another slab of the third division novelty island act that is the Scissor Sisters, I'd have been harrumphing off down the pub, with all the folks like Wing-commander Astbury [retired] who reckon it was all a bit of a yawn. derek w And have Muse been watching the entire catalogue of Rush videos? With the tortured squeal of Matt Bellamy, and turgid, convoluted arrangements, it's 2112 all over again........:-( *by me, anyway. New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:35:32 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 In a message dated 09/07/2004 11:55:00 GMT Standard Time, B.Clements@bepp.co.uk writes: > ---I remember this being discussed. It's very funny to see Franz F just > bunged in there for no apparent reason! ///surely they're better than the hot hot heat though? and even orange juice to be honest........p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:37:08 +0100 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 - -----Original Message----- From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com [mailto:PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Sent: 09 July 2004 13:36 To: Clements, Bruno - BUP; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 In a message dated 09/07/2004 11:55:00 GMT Standard Time, B.Clements@bepp.co.uk writes: - ---I remember this being discussed. It's very funny to see Franz F just bunged in there for no apparent reason! ///surely they're better than the hot hot heat though? and even orange juice to be honest........p - ----Colleague of mine lent me an OJ best-of CD. It made no impression on me whatsoever - it's hard to believe they even put that rubbish out and that anyone bought it! ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 08:40:15 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] kings of the wire frontier/ Glasto coverage bitchin' In a message dated 09/07/2004 12:08:55 GMT Standard Time, zak_blakk@yahoo.com writes: > was *really* hacked off about the non-appearance of Television on > my....erm...television, on Sunday night, after reading excitedly in the Grauniad's TV > mag that "Skinny New Yorkers Television will be noodling away". Oh no they > weren't. I was curious as to whether or not they showed up on the > un-receivable* digital channels, and I guess the remark about them being axed due to 'bad > sound'(??) kinda answers that. //////my comments related to BBC3 interactive , where television should have been. what you got was a choice of 2 stages , the "new band tent" and a dance tent. as i think i said last year , i'm sure the festival could have been great if you'd been there but the BBC just choose all the safe , dull stuff to show. real shame. p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:22:18 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 >>---I remember this being discussed. It's very funny to see Franz F just bunged in there for no apparent reason! ///surely they're better than the hot hot heat though? and even orange juice to be honest........p << As discussed before, it's a terribly lame chart, missing many of the key reference points for post-punk, and then including two current bands, one of whom is certainly 'in the zone', and the other is some way off, sounding like a '60s beat combo and being only tenuously associated with post-punk through the singer's fine Robert Smith impersonation. I've no problem with FF though - in fact I think they're rather good. But it shows how miserable Q has become that they include Hot Hot Heat rather than the more obvious post-punk-influenced Rapture or Interpol... >>----Colleague of mine lent me an OJ best-of CD. It made no impression on me whatsoever - it's hard to believe they even put that rubbish out and that anyone bought it! << The Polydor best-of doesn't include much of the best! What was so striking about OJ in 1980 was the extent to which they were out of step with everything that was going on. Twee, unashamedly melodic yet with a DIY aesthetic that was as punk as that of Crass. OJ/Postcard ae the bridge to so many things - good and bad. They're the bridge from the Buzzcocks to the Smiths for a start. They're also the bridgehead for 'record collection rock' - as promoted by OJ-uberfans McGee & Gillespie into Creation and beyond. Labels like Creation and (especially) Sarah cribbed Postcard's style. Doesn't detract from how good OJ were, especially live. For a better idea of what they were like, track down the two early 90s comps of singles/demos/sessions (now out of print, sadly) - The heather's on fire and Ostrich Churchyard. BTW, the onstage banter between the two Franz Ferdinand guitarists is a straight lift of the Edwyn Collins/James Kirk banter of early OJ. They must have studied bootlegs! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:38:22 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] kings of the wire frontier/ Glasto coverage bitchin' >>I was *really* hacked off about the non-appearance of Television on my....erm...television, on Sunday night, after reading excitedly in the Grauniad's TV mag that "Skinny New Yorkers Television will be noodling away". Oh no they weren't. I was curious as to whether or not they showed up on the un-receivable* digital channels, and I guess the remark about them being axed due to 'bad sound'(??) kinda answers that. << My guess is the 'bad sound' argument is a smokescreen, and Televsion's non-broadcast was due to some form of contractual wrangle regarding broadcasting rights and payments. TV were billed as headliners for the 'new tent' (oh, the irony) but in fact played much earlier in the evening - before BBC3 had activated the switchable interactive service. So the 'headline' act ended up being Ian McNabb (who'd frankly struggle to headline his own front room these days) who'd been billed much lower down... >> Left awash in a sea of mediocrity pouring out of the tube, I was left wondering just *why* it is that the Beeb go to all the trouble of showing up at Europe's largest and most diverse festival, with a multiplicity of different stages and other 'venues' on site, and then feel compelled to give us 'studio sessions' by some acts accoustically, some of whom aren't even on at the festival. WHY??<< Because they have to sign broadcasting contracts with everyone they plan to show. In some cases that's a couple of songs - in some cases the entire set. Note that no new Oasis songs wewre shown - that was in the contract to make sure they didn't end up on bootlegs. The BBC (or any other broadcaster) can't just show everything. There's a budget and the programming is planned. >> Is there not enough live music on stage in front of actual crowds to choose from? Why bother with these cod-accoustic interludes? Given that they have limited airtime, I would'! ve thought that they'd spend it wisely cramming as much of the main action in as possible. Bah! I *wish* the rights to this festival's TV coverage would revert to Channel Four, who IIRC had the franchise in the early to mid 90's, and who did a far better job of the coverage. << They showed far less (IIRC a few hours, rather than 3 entire evenings' worth on BBC3) and in any case are bound by the same cotractual shenanagins as the BBC. If they had a bigger budget, they could show more, of course. I guess they'd set E4 aside... >>Why did they need to repeat so many clips? I swear that by Sunday night I'd have gotten bolshy at someone merely humming that Franz Ferdinand out-of-tune strut ("Take me out"?), and if I had to see another slab of the third division novelty island act that is the Scissor Sisters, I'd have been harrumphing off down the pub, with all the folks like Wing-commander Astbury [retired] who reckon it was all a bit of a yawn.<< Again, part of the contract. FF clearly had allowed the BBC unlimited access to their set (shrewd, as it got shown a lot). BTW, they're doing it again at the weekend, at T in the Park. Will 'bad sound' hamper the Pixies I wonder? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:41:24 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT Job vacancies Yer sacked-ah! _http://www.visi.com/fall/news/fallnews.html_ (http://www.visi.com/fall/news/fallnews.html) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:46:53 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] kings of the wire frontier/ Glasto coverage bitchin' On Fri, Jul 09, 2004 at 09:38:22AM -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > TV were billed as headliners for the 'new tent' (oh, the irony) but > in fact played much earlier in the evening - before BBC3 had > activated the switchable interactive service. So the 'headline' act > ended up being Ian McNabb (who'd frankly struggle to headline his > own front room these days) who'd been billed much lower down... "It's not a new bands tent, it's a new tent for bands", or some such rubbish :) There were TV cameras there for part of Television's set, and they were doing that "sucking teeth" thing you see when tech stuff obviously isn't working right, so there may be some truth in the official explanantion here. (I was on the barrier, so I had a good view.) [Franz] > Again, part of the contract. FF clearly had allowed the BBC > unlimited access to their set (shrewd, as it got shown a lot). > BTW, they're doing it again at the weekend, at T in the Park. Will > 'bad sound' hamper the Pixies I wonder? Incidentally, right before "Take Me Out", Alex Kapranos said something like "You might want to dance a bit for this one, you're going to be on Top of the Pops"... - - Andrew - -- Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ Programme Controller, CUR1350 http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk Random Walk ::: Wednesday, 10pm ::: cur1350.co.uk ::: is this music? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:45:53 +0100 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] kings of the wire frontier/ Glasto coverage bitch in' While Mark may be correct there clearly was some sort of technical problem in the New Tent during Television's gig. ] It had rained very heavily only an hour beforehand and the TV equipment was not used during the Buck 65 set, so any problems were not ironed out at that stage. At one point a cameraman ditched his camera to go back to look at some equipment on the side of the stage. I suspect that, in this case, the excuse is correct. Sadly, this means the chance of a decent bootleg ever emerging of this show is pretty slim... Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:52:46 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] kings of the wire frontier/ Glasto coverage bitchin' >>Incidentally, right before "Take Me Out", Alex Kapranos said something like "You might want to dance a bit for this one, you're going to be on Top of the Pops"...<< And he was. TOTP was on at the time and cut live to Glasto at that point. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:08:09 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 In a message dated 09/07/2004 14:25:02 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > >>----Colleague of mine lent me an OJ best-of CD. It made no impression on > me > whatsoever - it's hard to believe they even put that rubbish out and that > anyone bought it! << > > The Polydor best-of doesn't include much of the best! What was so striking > about OJ in 1980 was the extent to which they were out of step with > everything > that was going on. Twee, unashamedly melodic yet with a DIY aesthetic that > was as punk as that of Crass. > ////// sadly with edwyn collins i find he has 2 modes ; sickly and twee or unbearably smartarse. it just seems really soul-less and more a bridge to horrible "knowing" 80's pop like prefab sprout. i quite liked the (very) early singles like "blue boy" but i don't think i've heard a decent track from their big label days (ie most of their career) early/mid 80's in birmingham edwyn collins was huge and i was regularly subjected to his solo albums , never heard much to get excited about there. i think if crass had had half the resources edwyn had , then we might really have had some fun :-) p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:51:43 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] Map ref... http://confluence.org/confluence.php?lat=41&lon=-93 - - A - -- Dept of Earth Sciences, Univ. Cambridge ::: http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk ::: http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ Random Walk, 10pm Wednesdays, CUR1350 ::: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:17:31 +0200 From: "mileta okiljevic" Subject: [idealcopy] Goldfrapp/Peaches at festivals > From: "Keith Astbury" > And there was me interested in what his solo stuff sounded like! As for > Glastonbury, I thought Goldfrapp were good. Made me get Black Cherry out > again. Still sounds fab! > I must admit that i prefer Felt Mountain, but after i saw them live with all those buziing synths, i will check Black Cherry again. Goldfrapp was one of highlights of EXIT festival last week (and i exchange some mails with polish friends, they were good in Poland,too) they even extended their set due to enthusiastic response to audience. Only fault is that they was last act before brilliant Massive Attack (with fantastic light wall and show..). Alison sung brilliantly and Scrict Machine sound mighty. Same was with canadian uber-babe PEACHES who supported Iggy & The Stooges (which is no wonder because she guest on Skull Rings and Iggy return favour on Fatherfucker ). Hers show was more performance than gig, and funniest thing is that she in one song -definitively SUICIDE pastiche sporting sunglasses and jacket Alan Vega uset to wear. Both Alison and Peaches on stage make simulation of maturbation, Peached even lesbian sex with dancers. Neneh Cherry tries same (she didn't sing, she DJ-ing?? it was big swindle) but look more than pathetic.. Keith, in case you will like to read review of Goldfrapp gig link is http://www.exitfest.org/ of course there is option for english language ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 17:51:33 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 > Don't think anyone's mentioned the "12 Steps To Building The Ultimate > Post-Punk Collection" article in this months Q. There at no. 2 was Chairs > Missing. I've just been watching the fabulous Guided by Voices DVD "Watch Me Jumpstart" in which Robert Pollards speaks of all the major infuences on his music starting with the 60's British invasion, psychedelica, prog (VDGG), punk & postpunk. But after postpunk there wasn't really any music anymore that struck him as totally relevant. Putting dance aside (which has quite a different bloodline) I tend to agree with the man. > BTW, the onstage banter between the two Franz Ferdinand guitarists is a > straight lift of the Edwyn Collins/James Kirk banter of early OJ. They must > have studied bootlegs! In a recent tv interview I've heard the FF singer deny being influenced by postpunk bands except perhaps Talking Heads. He said he never even heard of the likes of Gang of 4 before. Do we believe him? I find it hard to. Doesn't stop me from liking FF though. Bart (np: The Popgroup's Y on old cassette - is this availlable on cd?) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:51:30 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 > early/mid 80's in birmingham edwyn collins was huge and i was regularly > subjected to his solo albums , never heard much to get excited about there. Surely these would have been OJ LP's? OJ didn't split up till, I guess, 1985. Edwyn's debut LP was - to the best of my knowledge - Hope & Despair - and that wasn't released till 1989. And a fine album it was too. In fact, I think most* of Edwyn's solo albums are excellent. Great lyricist, too. I always place more importance on music than lyrics, but What Presence is definitely one of my faves in this respect. * I'm not wild about Hellbent on Compromise and I haven't heard the last one. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:00:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] 1st fast, 2nd nature, 3rd degree Andrew Walkingshaw wrote: > We've been living with "Send" for (a bit over) twelve months now; I'm > listening to it right now. Still sounds fantastic; I was just > wondering if peoples' reactions to it had changed over time - > perspective, etc. > God anyone would think this was a Wire list or something. In hindsight, Send still doesn't yet grab me like other Wire albums...yet. The overall, brutal, metronomic thrash of the project was initially exciting, the live version was great to see. It was a joy to hear and see Wire play with some serious energy. But Send is not something i go back to and play very often. ((( I only listen quite occasionally too, and not even to Send, but 'Sent'(a cross between Send and Spent:), my Send/R&B compilation: Art of stopping Marx's table Being watched Comet(Send version) Germ ship Ist fast Read & burn Spent Trash/treasure Nice streets (edited version) You can't leave now 99.9 Funny thing is, depending on my mood, I generally find myself hitting the stop button before 99.9 comes on. Powerful and all as it is, I actually think they could greatly improve it if they took a few risks. Did it really need to have boneheaded beats ? Could it have been more powerful more unmoored ? Somewhat like You Can't Leave Now, which is probably my favourite, largely because the slow down of pace and the vastness of the bass is so satisfying. Marx's Table comes a very close 2nd for me, as the bass is more 'present' in the mix and really anchors it, and the various edits keep it interesting. I've said it before, but the familiarity with the R&B material makes it damn near impossible listen to Send as a complete album, more of a patchwork, though the continuity is very strong ('cept for Half eaten), and it is doubtless a very strong statement to kick off the new decade/century/milleniium and the mark 3 phase. A good way of consolidating their position after returning to the fray. Maybe it will mature with age, I didn't hear '154' until 1994 ((( I often wonder what 154 would sound like if I was hearing it for the Ist time only recently. So hard to separate it from all the contextual factors at the time, it's kind of like DNA now. Rooted and spread. when it had a whole weight of WireHistory and context behind it. I was hooked from the first listen, it was my kind of music and yet it had been a secret to me until I heard it. "Send" is very differnt. Its very uniform, very strict-tempo and to be honest, i don't find it particularly appealing to listen to at the moment whereas I come back to 154 and Chairs Missing ((( These are the two I listen to most. and enjoy them again and again. Send is better anything they did after, and including Manscape. But I think they have raised the stakes, but now they have milked this version of Wire to death. ....their next move should be to do something as brutal, energetic and in-yr-facey as 'Send', but with the artistry of '154' or the Dome stuff..and something that sounds like a band playing rather than a pro-tooled sample of a band..make something that *surpasses* their own history...thats the real challenge...never mind getting 20 year olds to dance at gigs. ((( A think the next stage will be a real challenge, though doubtless one they'll rise well to, but something more for us to get the teeth into, not just the feet, slow it down a bit, or at least vary the pace, create something more symphonic in persuasion... (don't take this literally !) Fergus __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 17:13:31 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] 1st fast, 2nd nature, 3rd degree On Fri, Jul 09, 2004 at 09:00:40AM -0700, Fergus Kelly wrote: > ((( I often wonder what 154 would sound like if I was > hearing it for the Ist time only recently. So hard to > separate it from all the contextual factors at the > time, it's kind of like DNA now. Rooted and spread. This is (sort of) the position I'm in, as a latecomer to the party. ("154" is my favourite of the first three records). Wire, at least on CM/154, really still don't have anyone else who sounds like them; there are connections in my head to My Bloody Valentine, the "cold psychedelic" electronica of Boards of Canada's more alien moments, to some of Sonic Youth, but I know these are connections I'm forging by not having the cultural context of the time rather than anything with any substantive meaning outside my head.[1] What it makes me realise, really, is that I don't "process" electronic music and guitar music differently; I think about them in basically the same way. I think early Wire prefigures this heavily. - - Andrew [1] I know what I *mean*, but I think I'm expressing it really badly here, so sorry for the inevitable confusion... - -- Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ Programme Controller, CUR1350 http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ email: andrew@lexical.org.uk Random Walk ::: Wednesday, 10pm ::: cur1350.co.uk ::: is this music? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:52:09 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] 1st fast, 2nd nature, 3rd degree >> ((( I often wonder what 154 would sound like if I was > hearing it for the Ist time only recently. So hard to > separate it from all the contextual factors at the > time, it's kind of like DNA now. Rooted and spread.<< Having listened to it pretty regularly for a quarter of a century (yikes!), it has achieved a kind of timelessness that is reserved for truly great pieces of work. Not sure it was in step with any context at the time, other than the act of doing what was not expected... >>This is (sort of) the position I'm in, as a latecomer to the party. ("154" is my favourite of the first three records). Wire, at least on CM/154, really still don't have anyone else who sounds like them; there are connections in my head to My Bloody Valentine,<< Simple straight line from Outdoor Miner to Loveless, via the Jesus & Mary Chain. >> the "cold psychedelic" electronica of Boards of Canada's more alien moments,<< More a case of sharing common roots (Kraftwerk especially) rather than a direct influence? Not sure the BoC/Autechre types are much influenced by the past at all. >> to some of Sonic Youth, but I know these are connections I'm forging by not having the cultural context of the time rather than anything with any substantive meaning outside my head.[1]<< SY are basically a bunch of tutored avant agrde musicians trying to be a punk/beat group...much easier to pin influences on them than it is with Wire. >>What it makes me realise, really, is that I don't "process" electronic music and guitar music differently; I think about them in basically the same way. I think early Wire prefigures this heavily.<< The whole post-punk ethos allowed you to stack, say, Cabaret Voltaire and Orange Juice alongside each other (indeed, these are two bands with very much the same VU roots, just went in slighlty different directions...). So it's not unreasonable that a latecomer should be able to pick up on this through the records of the time... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:17:59 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] HOMOSEXUALS fans take note: MESSTHETICS RECORDS presents: HOMOSEXUALS, THE: Astral Glamour 3CD (MSS 204CD). "The Homosexuals created a musical world of their own. Holed up in no-rent studios and squats, they mined every genre from psych-folk and Afrobeat to punk and dub, added killer hooks, then exuberantly tore it all apart. They wrote and recorded for five years, but they never took out an advert, sent out a promotional record, or got paid for a gig. The legend has grown, and today the Homosexuals are arguably the most acclaimed-and-least-heard band of the postpunk era. After more than a year of research and restoration, a hundred hours of conversations with band-members, and endless surprises, the story of The Homosexuals can now be told. Astral Glamour gathers 81 songs and three-plus hours of legendary 1977-1983 artpunk -- every Homosexuals song from their records and the C-60, plus a dozen other tracks never released anywhere before. Astral Glamour also features a full-colour 32-page booklet with scores of unpublished photographs, posters, lyrics, songby-song comments and an extensive history of their early years." //////////// RL np - COIL "BLACK ANTLERS" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 13:19:45 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 In a message dated 09/07/2004 16:52:07 GMT Standard Time, bartvandamme@home.nl writes: > In a recent tv interview I've heard the FF singer deny being influenced by > postpunk bands except perhaps Talking Heads. He said he never even heard of > the likes of Gang of 4 before. Do we believe him? I find it hard to. Doesn't > stop me from liking FF though. ////he picks his top 10 debut albums in this months uncut , "unknown pleasures" is in there and he namechecks the cure and the monochrome set. sounds like he understands his music ; i don't believe for a minute he's not heard the GO4. tongue in cheek i suspect.....p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 14:10:55 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 In a message dated 09/07/2004 16:55:19 GMT Standard Time, keith.indoorminer@virgin.net writes: > Surely these would have been OJ LP's? OJ didn't split up till, I guess, > 1985. Edwyn's debut LP was - to the best of my knowledge - Hope &Despair - > and that wasn't released till 1989. And a fine album it was too. In fact, I > think most* of Edwyn's solo albums are excellent. Great lyricist, too. I > always place more importance on music than lyrics, but What Presence is > definitely one of my faves in this respect. > ////// a couple of guys i knew really well were mega collins fans , maybe it was latter day OJ though as my memory is a littel hazy. sorry but he just doesn't float my boat. to me its just pastiche with no soul at all. (ever see him do "what presence" with vic godard ? that was better......p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 19:26:39 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 > (ever see him do "what presence" with vic godard ? that was better......p No, but I recall an excellent OJ version on OGWT! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:13:24 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Somewhat later still...(still?) Keith said: > I do. > > Ari said: opened yourself right up for comments from Robert and Bart (come on guys,here's your chance)>>> nah...i couldn't marry Keith...a) he's my aunt.....b) he's too high maintenence..what with all those clothing and accessory needs...i don't make enough money.... Bart? wedding pictures? RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:19:29 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Somewhat later... Jan said: The manager was very glad with the album Wire made year. He said they gave us a feeling that age is not important anymore for a great rock-album. How many new young kids do try but do not succeed making one. That's what gives them great respect. Forever young.>>>>>> but are they Big in Japan???? let's leave Alphaville out of this... i'll get me coat RL - still saying: GREECE???? GREECE???? beating Portugal not once, but twice in the same tournament?? gads!(yes i appreciate the world's game enough to follow it...even without televsion coverage...although i am enjoying the Copa America tournament on tv...the Mexico/Uruguay game was great...soft spot for the Mexican team as i see their players every Sunday during league play...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:28:21 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Great Dichotomy of Pop the list goes on and on... >> um, iggy pop? and pere ubu sure gets enough praise around here, and falls into that time period, as does some great stuff from faust and can. i enjoyed the kinks early 70's output too, more in the 70's and 80's than now, but still have fond memories. heh, my friend and i used to recite parts of preservation 1 + 2 and soap opera. i can barely remember them now. those memories must be clouded by something. - - -another the paul>>>>>> of course...i was speaking of the obvious, surface level stuff....Iggy Popo and Television were not huge radio "pop/rock" acts... duh lol RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:39:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] a useful tool........ and it's free............ http://www.javacoolsoftware.com/spywareblaster.html __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:57:40 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] post-punk 12 >>he picks his top 10 debut albums in this months uncut , "unknown pleasures" is in there and he namechecks the cure and the monochrome set. sounds like he understands his music ; i don't believe for a minute he's not heard the GO4. tongue in cheek i suspect.....p << Well, young Mr Kapranos has been around the block a couple of times before Franz Ferdinand (most estimates put his age at about 30..). In fact one of his previous bands (the Karelia) got as far as releasing an album as far back as 1997. Its producer? Step forward Mr Bid (for it is he) - so no surprise Alex has heard of the 'Set. Mark ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #202 *******************************