From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #189 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, June 27 2004 Volume 07 : Number 189 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] marcell wrote.... [=?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=E9meth_Marcell?= ] Re: [idealcopy] P.J sed.......... [=?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= <] Re: [idealcopy] RE: cheap gas............. [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] mark inquired.. [Bart van Damme ] [idealcopy] marci......(again) [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] carbon -> hydrogen economy [Bart van Damme ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 10:57:14 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=E9meth_Marcell?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] marcell wrote.... If you mention my name in the subject please write it correctly (nemeh?), furthermore, my first name is Marcell (we Hungarians write our names just like the Japanese, the last name first) :) About the trips: me too have relatives in Germany and they live much less than 1200 miles from here (in fact, most of the European families have some relatives in another European countries, thanks to eg. the WWII or settling.) It's not the borders that keeps me (or the others) back from visiting them but the cost of travelling. So believe me, from an European point of view it's luxury (a thing you cannot live without but people do here) and not because we just don't have 'long distances'. If there were oil wells on every corner this discussion would be meaningless, but oil reserves are very limited, and there are only one country which needs more oil than any other and to get it's way it doesn't even care about military interventions - just to keep oil (travelling, military etc.) costs low? (Don't think I blame you for it.) Marcell Ari wrote: >>>I do not find any logical mistakes in my sentence. These are two facts, >>> >>> >no major connection between them. I don't think that Europeans are just >too modest to buy a large car (in fact they couldn't afford it), but >Americans do because they can afford it. If we think globally, and why >not, it's wasting.<< >Agreed,except that I oft take off to visit my ex wife,who lives only 1,200 miles or so from me,and takes a day and a half to get there.to do that in a car of european proportions would have me in a mad house (or in a hospital) in no time at all,my '99 Nissan Altima SE is small enough,being over 6 foot tall,even if I lived in europe I'd be looking at at least a car the size I have,your not gonna tell me those tall Swedes drive around in an itsy bitsie nsu or one of those 3 wheel gizmo's....................Ari ' >Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 12:42:31 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] P.J sed.......... > I think it's already happening,I have a visitor from Wolverhampton here right now,she was amazed at the amount of re-cycling centers we have and all the bins in front of houses with seperated glass/plastic/paper compartments for council pick-up,the centers are for folk like me that live too far out for local councils to cover,her comment,and her 21 year old son's was 'we' (britain) need to follow this example.............so we ain't as bad as some would make out eh guys? Ari We have re-cycling centres even in this Welsh backwater, and the council also now collect from our houses. I can't believe they haven't got the same in a town the size of Wolverhampton. And we're talking about a place that gave us Slade! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 08:21:31 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] mark inquired.. >>yup,truth is I ain't stepped on to an airoplane since that fateful day.....................can't bring myself to do it,<< I'd say it was the safest way to travel now, given the increased security and the likelihood that Al Qua'eda would do something different next time. BTW I had to take a flight on 9/12. >>as for environmentaly better (flying vs. driving) not too sure 'bout that one but I suspect the car would,in the long run,be better.......<< No. An airliner with 150 passengers travelling 1200 miles creates far fewer emissions (and different types of emissions) than 150 cars doing the same journey. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 05:40:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] marcell on oil >>but oil reserves are very limited, and there are only one country which needs more oil than any other and to get it's way it doesn't even care about military interventions << this is no longer true,china is now a huge gas gussler,as is japan. as for the bush policies,one can only hope he gets defeated. as for americans using more than any other country 'per capita',yes we do,and it'll continue that way 'till some-one figures out how to replace oil,but don't expect me or any other american to 'sit at home' in case some-one somewhere else thinks we shouldn't,if I need to go out I shall,I too 'don't have a choice' for if there's no commercial and no 'local' (I live 5 miles outside the city limits) bus service,what's a guy to do?no one these days jumps in the car to 'cruise',well maybe the teens do.Ari Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 13:51:29 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] P.J sed.......... Here in Columbus, we have to pay to get recycling picked up. I think it's like four dollars a month. They almost cancelled our recycling for lack of interest. I believe we have less than 10% of the residents who bother. The recycling containers are so small that I'm sure a lot of people throw the overflow in the trash. There are fewer drop off points as well. At work you would not believe how much paper gets wasted. I try to take a lot of it home for my origami, but how many paper tetrahedrons do you need? wnd3 (yum, crunchy granola) - --- Ari wrote: > life is waste. you cannot exist without it. > Americans do waste more, > and slowly people are becoming aware of that fact. > but it will take > time.... > PJK > I think it's already happening,I have a visitor from > Wolverhampton here right now,she was amazed at the > amount of re-cycling centers we have and all the > bins in front of houses with seperated > glass/plastic/paper compartments for council > pick-up,the centers are for folk like me that live > too far out for local councils to cover,her > comment,and her 21 year old son's was 'we' (britain) > need to follow this example.............so we ain't > as bad as some would make out eh guys? Ari > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:25:11 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: cheap gas............. I just read about the Toyota Prius (hybrid-electric) being the least poluting car around these days. Seems it's becoming quite popular even in the US. The dutch environment minister testdrove one for a few months, but returned it because it supposedly wasn't big enough to work in. This was investigated and turned out to be total rubbish. Apparantly the snob thought it didn't sooth his sorry stature. So much for giving the right example! Personally I'm can't wait for the hydrogen economy to kick the butt of the whole carbon fuel era. Iceland leads the way! http://www.hydrogennow.org Bart PS: Diesel may be efficient, but it's still one of the most poluting fuels around. In Holland (& EU?) filters will be mandatory within the next 3 years. Good news for the bronchially challenged like myself. > economy of scale, yet insular enough to ignore global trends. hence the growth > of huge, inefficient 4x4 vehicles (Suburbans, Expeditions etc) as replacements > for the huge, "full-size cars" (ie 3x normal size) that used to predominate. > > And all this is caused by ludicrously cheap petrol prces - still, despite > recent price hikes. > > The "longer distances" argument won't wash either. Who really travels > hundreds of miles by car on a regular basis? Most business travellers take the > cheap flight/cheap car hire route these days. > > And if you had to drive long distances (at a stately 55mph) why do you need > a V8-engined off-roader? More efficient fuels (like diesel) exist. But there's > no distribution in the US, so auto makers don't offer their diesel models > (which in Europe account for around 40% of the total car market). > > I'll not mention Kyoto. The US withdrawal from that was a total disgrace. It > would have been a first step toward bringing the US into line with the rest > of the world. No chance as long as teh Texas oil barons have their poster boy > in the white house. You know what to do in November. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:26:30 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=E9meth_Marcell?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] marcell on oil Ari wrote: >>>but oil reserves are very limited, and there are only one >>> >>> >country which needs more oil than any other and to get it's way it >doesn't even care about military interventions << >this is no longer true,china is now a huge gas gussler,as is japan. > > The USA is still #1 with almost 20 million barrels per day which is approx 4 times more than what Japan or China consumes. >as for americans using more than any other country 'per capita',yes we do,and it'll continue that way 'till some-one figures out how to replace oil,but don't expect me or any other american to 'sit at home' in case some-one somewhere else thinks we shouldn't,if I need to go out I shall,I too 'don't have a choice' for if there's no commercial and no 'local' (I live 5 miles outside the city limits) bus service,what's a guy to do?no one these days jumps in the car to 'cruise',well maybe the teens do.Ari > No, I didn't say you (or any American) should sit at home. But don't expect things will turn for better (just look at the gas price) if people continue consuming so much energy and they are just waiting for a 'solution'. (I remember an American colleague of my friend who works for the US embassy in Budapest. Right after the bloke got a flat he got the 'standard' fridge replaced by a good ol' American one (yeah, 2 times larger) and he did the same with his 'small European' official car. I wonder how many streets he found downtown where his new car was to broad to drive in!) Here in the EU there are many subsidies if you reconstruct your house/workshop to work with less energy. (However, people still don't usually think 'environment consciously'.) Marci ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:23:58 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: cheap gas............. > is it that we can afford it, or that we are brainwashed into thinking it's the > right thing to do, or that we really don;t have all that many other options? > it's a little complex, really. I don't think it's complex at all. These days we all have (or can have) acces to the facts about environmental matters. Brainwashed...? I dunno, you either take responsibility or you don't. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 07:35:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] mark inquired.. I'm not claiming this to be an authoritative word on the subject, but I was talking about this very thing to a friend who's pretty environmentally aware a couple of days back. I was saying that unnecessary car journeys are doing great pollution damage, etc, and he replied "Yes, but the exhaust from jet fuel is also a significant contributor to the total. But THE worst, he rather surprisingly told me, was shipping, in that the fuel oil they tend to use is the cheapest, nastiest most sulphurous they can get their hands on. Furthermore, out on the high seas, there's a noticeable lack of the pollution inspectorate, so they go onto the tankfuls of *really* cruddy stuff. As an added bonus, ships are also wont to flush the crap out of empty tanks at sea, and dump the effluent 'over the side'. Now I know the number of ships plying the oceans of the world isn't that great compared to autos & planes, but they *do* have collossal engines, in terms of cubic capacity and hence fuel requirements, so it sounds plausible. Anyone know if these assertions are correct? Additionally, it's not that I'm trying to give anyone an excuse for being cavalier in their fuel use, but as far as I'm aware, ALL these major polluting agents annual outputs are far eclipsed by a single major volcanic eruption, in terms of sulphurous emissions, aerosols and particulate matter blown into the stratosphere........... Ari wrote: Surely flying and renting a car at the nearest airport has to be a cheaper option, even at US petrol prices? You'd save money, save a lot of time and do far less environmental damage. yup,truth is I ain't stepped on to an airoplane since that fateful day.....................can't bring myself to do it,as for environmentaly better (flying vs. driving) not too sure 'bout that one but I suspect the car would,in the long run,be better.......Ari __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 17:08:25 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] mark inquired.. > Additionally, it's not that I'm trying to give anyone an excuse for being > cavalier in their fuel use, but as far as I'm aware, ALL these major polluting > agents annual outputs are far eclipsed by a single major volcanic eruption, in > terms of sulphurous emissions, aerosols and particulate matter blown into the > stratosphere........... Yeah, mother nature's deadly farts... "ABOLISH VULCANOS!!!" Bart (tries not to breath after eating spicy pizza) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 08:02:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] marci......(again) Marcel sed: >>The USA is still #1 with almost 20 million barrels per day which is approx 4 times more than what Japan or China consumes.<< and a population that matches this,look guys america has something like 250 million people,are you really expecting us to use as much as japan or britain,with it's 50 million or so people? if you compare europe to america and not one european country to america................ __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:47:28 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] carbon -> hydrogen economy > as for americans using more than any other country 'per capita',yes we do,and > it'll continue that way 'till some-one figures out how to replace oil,but > don't expect me or any other american to 'sit at home' in case some-one > somewhere else thinks we shouldn't,if I need to go out I shall,I too 'don't > have a choice' for if there's no commercial and no 'local' (I live 5 miles > outside the city limits) bus service,what's a guy to do?no one these days > jumps in the car to 'cruise',well maybe the teens do.Ari > Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! Asking people not to travel (work or pleasure) to save the environment isn't the right approach imo. It's clean fuels/engines we need and they are being developped. The only thing I'm worried about is the shift of (super)power the transition from carbon - to hydrogen economy is going to cause. E.g. what are (most of) the OPEC countries going to do (as there's very little innovation going on there), sit back and take the pain? And I do hope China won't build its new infrastructure based on the old carbon economy. What a waste that would be! Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:25:38 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=E9meth_Marcell?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] marci......(again) Ari wrote: >Marcel sed: > > >>>The USA is still #1 with almost 20 million barrels >>> >>> >per day which is >approx 4 times more than what Japan or China >consumes.<< >and a population that matches this,look guys america >has something like 250 million people,are you really >expecting us to use as much as japan or britain,with >it's 50 million or so people? >if you compare europe to america and not one european >country to america................ > Well Ari, please check the fact first. Britain has 60 million, Japan has 130 million (not '50 million or so'). If you check any oil consumption per capita graph (which, unlike the full consumption data, doesn't depend on population volume), the USA is 4th placed preceded only by Singapore, United Arab Emirates and Qatar which are small countries with a population of less than some millions. Marci ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 18:40:48 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?N=E9meth_Marcell?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] mark inquired.. Derek White wrote: >Additionally, it's not that I'm trying to give anyone an excuse for being cavalier in their fuel use, but as far as I'm aware, ALL these major polluting agents annual outputs are far eclipsed by a single major volcanic eruption, in terms of sulphurous emissions, aerosols and particulate matter blown into the stratosphere........... > Yes, but the main problems with the pollution of human origin are that it appears globally all over the world and it appears in high concentration. (Unlike natural pollutions which appear in high volumes but - due dispersion - in low concentration.) It's not the huge volcanoes or anything natural 'who' is to blame for eg. the ozone hole but the 'very small' men. Furthermore, you can grow healthy plants at the foot of a volcano - try the same near to an industry plant in Romania. Marci ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2004 16:14:29 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] P.J sed.......... > Here in Columbus, we have to pay to get recycling > picked up. I think it's like four dollars a month. > They almost cancelled our recycling for lack of > interest. I believe we have less than 10% of the > residents who bother. The recycling containers are so > small that I'm sure a lot of people throw the overflow > in the trash. > There are fewer drop off points as well. my water bill doesn't include a line item for recycling ... whatever they charge, presumably it's part of the $12 "refuse" charge. (or maybe they're charging me for "refuse" the *verb*, since i *refuse* to embrace the regional concept of a delicacy, boiled peanuts [unheard of back home in arkansas.) in any event, i'm glad to pay it. north little rock charged less, i think, but (a) didn't offer curbside recycling (though its larger neighbor across the river, little rock, did) & (b) didn't furnish a trash bin. i don't care about the latter, but the former saves me a lot of hassle -- &, for that matter, a certain amount of gasoline -- hauling recyclables to various collection points. judging by the number of rather capacious orange recycling bags dotting the curbsides around here on mondays, i'd say the practice is pretty popular here. that's pretty impressive, considering where i am. i'm curous as to when it started, insofar as the previous mayor (till 2000, i think) was a hardcore gun-totin', n*****-hatin' conservative who no doubt despised his neighbor george wallace for veering sharply leftward & would almost certainly have rejected recycling (& for that matter fluoridation of water -- of course, so did my father) as a communist plot. for that matter, the executive editor at my former paper in little rock also despised recycling with ever fibre of his being. the yellow wooden boxes stacked around the newsroom for deposit of newspapers, office paper, etc for recycling must've galled him to no end on a daily basis. of course, he also banned the use of "neo-nazi" & "racist" in our pages, held that men couldn't be raped, put the kibosh on all stories alleging the existence of global warming, decreed that all stories on local executions (including the first triple-header in the u.s. in something like 50 y ears) be consigned to page 3b, etc. *damn* that leftist media! though of course here in montgomery i ran into the fake-liberal opposite ... *sigh* dan, ready, willing & able as soon as someone starts up a decent anarchist daily > > At work you would not believe how much paper gets > wasted. I try to take a lot of it home for my origami, > but how many paper tetrahedrons do you need? > > wnd3 > (yum, crunchy granola) > > --- Ari wrote: > life is > waste. you cannot exist without it. > > Americans do waste more, > > and slowly people are becoming aware of that fact. > > but it will take > > time.... > > PJK > > I think it's already happening,I have a visitor from > > Wolverhampton here right now,she was amazed at the > > amount of re-cycling centers we have and all the > > bins in front of houses with seperated > > glass/plastic/paper compartments for council > > pick-up,the centers are for folk like me that live > > too far out for local councils to cover,her > > comment,and her 21 year old son's was 'we' (britain) > > need to follow this example.............so we ain't > > as bad as some would make out eh guys? Ari > > New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #189 *******************************