From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #186 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, June 24 2004 Volume 07 : Number 186 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V7 #184 [rys01ajc@gold.ac.uk] [idealcopy] M v W the story continues........ [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] DOME [MarkBursa@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] sexism contd........ ["Eric Klaver" ] [idealcopy] O.T: The Cure... [Ari ] RE: [idealcopy] DOME ["anastasia" ] [idealcopy] O.T:a better browser? [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] DOME [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] DOME [Hamish MacKenzie ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:38:56 +0100 From: rys01ajc@gold.ac.uk Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V7 #184 - --On 22 June 2004 19:16 +0100 Keith Knight wrote: > According to the Ubu website - http://ubuprojex.net/ - RFTT are still > going and are down to play in Germany on 25 Sept. That's just been added. Great news if you live in Germany. As they're still going its a mystery why the London performance was changed to Ubu. > I've been listening for the first time to The Day the Earth Met the > Rocket from the Tombs this week and it's a pretty fabulous document - > clearly a great lost band, although as Ubu came out of them perhaps the > loss was not as pronounced as it might have been. Reading the liner > notes it's interesting that David Thomas was not regarded as a natural > frontman at the time, given that he's one of the most compelling > performers I've ever seen. I think a lot of it was to do with the fact that most people thought he couldn't sing. It seems to be an acquired taste although it was one I acquired very easily. Also there were a number of writers and singers in the band and I get the impression that it was always 2 bands in one awaiting a split. If you enjoyed the original recordings you should give the reworkings a try - Rocket Redux is excellent. It sounds pretty much like a live-in-the -studio recording and Thomas predominates on vocals. He doesn't sing Peter Laughner's Aint It Fun. I guess he finds it too nihilistic. There's little or no loss of power in the intervening 30 years and 4 or 5 of the tracks genuinely are the "classics" they are often claimed to be in the Velvets/Stooges lineage. Tony. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 02:22:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] M v W the story continues........ Tim wrote: >>I'm certainly nothing to do with SWP brigade and would rather be a Killing Joke Roadie than be associated with that bunch of pillocks.<< So what's swp brigade Tim,enlighten us on this side of the pond. Tim. (and)>>N.P. Blonde Redhead<< 'Blonde' Redhead,isn't this 'Hairist'?............... actually Tim I was watching Diana Krall the other night and I commented that I thought she was a real good pianist and that she plays piano like a man (which is to say she hits the keys hard,unlike most female piano players) would this be 'sexist' also? Women don't (generally) have the strength of men when it comes to sports as has been pointed out this is why the vast majority of sports have different leagues for men and women,so I for one don't think Derek's comment was sexist,merely an observation of fact,as the 16-0 score showed.I think you're nit picking by keeping up the barrage.Ari New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 22:00:50 +1000 From: "anastasia" Subject: [idealcopy] DOME Hi My friend found a DOME 12 inch record. He didn't buy it; he's wondering whether anyone is interested in it? He might go back and get it, it's in a record store up near the Blue Mountains in NSW about 100 kilometers from where he lives. I will answer those other replies another day. anastasia ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:07:17 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] DOME >>My friend found a DOME 12 inch record. He didn't buy it; he's wondering whether anyone is interested in it? He might go back and get it, it's in a record store up near the Blue Mountains in NSW about 100 kilometers from where he lives.<< If it's Dome 1 or 2 you should get it youself. Dome 1 is truly wonderful. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:38:57 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] sexism contd........ Ari on sexism: actually Tim I was watching Diana Krall the other night and I commented that I thought she was a real good pianist and that she plays piano like a man (which is to say she hits the keys hard,unlike most female piano players) would this be 'sexist' also? ////////////////// I've been meaning to chime in on this for a while but time has constrained me. I think it was Levi Strauss (the philosopher not the jean manufacturer) who came up with the concept of thte "marked other", that is, engendered nouns that require modifiers, e.g. male nurse, female doctor, etc. "Playing piano like a man" I think falls into this category, and while loaded with cultural prejudice about piano playing, isn't sexist per se. Using the word "girl" is deminutive, infantilizing and ultimately sexist. As pointed out earlier, women use the word in the same way that black culture has adopted "nigger". As a white man I would as much call a woman girl as I would call a black person nigger. Try telling Malka she plays like a man or a woman.... Eric in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 09:31:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IdealCopy = Sexist Euro2004 Chat!: An alleged'sexist' speaks.. And again...........(yawn) Tim wrote: Derek White wrote: > ///// Here we go again......... > *snip* No we don't. I don't want to fuel this one. Lets disagree to disagree? We all like Wire don't we? Now that'd be just *dandy* if you'd left it there, but you WOULDN'T LET IT LIE, would you....... I still don't think there is any justification for using 'Girl' as a term of abuse, even as part of 'Football Banter'. Derek has not convinced me. But, as I said previously, *nothing* is going to convince you is it? >And frankly, anyone who cites the fact that "his previous girlfriends" >will testify to the fact that he is not a sexist pig...thats up there >with "I'm not a racist a lot of my friends are black".... Oh bollocks, I just give up in the face of such knee-jerk ,crass and *wilful stupidity*. Frankly, that is your most *cretinous* utterance to date. Who are you gonna ask, then Tim? Had I said you can ask *any* friends, I think it's a safe bet the response would've then been 'the testimony of fellow potential sexist pigs is inadmissable in the circumstances", wouldn't it ? That is WHO ELSE WOULD YOU ASK FOR A KNOWLEDGABLE OPINION, EH?? Tell me , just who else would you believe, except the women in my life that have some real depth of knowledge about me, & what I am *or am not* personally, other than those women who, have spent enough time with me in all manner of situations? My point is, the mask, were it such, would slip inevitably, and I'd be rumbled were it a PC front. Just who *would* know if I were 'guilty as charged' were it not for said 'previous and *present* girlfriends' . NOTE: IF YOU ARE GOING TO QUOTE ME TIM , THEN PLEASE DO NOT DO SO *SELECTIVELY* ie quote with WITH *ALL* THE WORDING INTACT. How do you know I didn't mean 'girlfriends' generically, as shorthand for 'my aquaintances of the female sex'? . You *assume* that it for *sure* was meant as in 'Lovers past and present':- you joined the dots there, my friend, not I:- it was left deliberately ambiguous to see if you bit, and you blithely strolled right into the elephant trap. To quote an earlier missive of yours," on *what* basis, exactly, do you assume I'm straight" , Tim? :-) This is getting really old, really fast. >This bit speaks for itself: >"I speak as someone who, as a result of a similar argument to this >watched the lamentable spectacle of a team of women footballers play >against a team of men. The 'pub disagreement' was turned into a charity >event, but it was as tedious as it was predictable, and I left when the >score was 16-0 about ten minutes into the second half." ///// In *what* way does it speak for itself exactly? It *is* a report of a real event, seen by my very own peepers, reported dispassionately. It was *not* a good watch. Good sport requires both sides to be in with a reasonable chance of winning. This however was not one of those occasions:- It *was* one-sided. It *was* tedious. It *was* predictable.... what, if it speaks for itself, is it saying exactly. Once again, Please restrict yourself to what I actually said, and not what *you yourself* inferred. >Does this mean that its OK to call someone who we don't think is good at f>ootball a "Girl"? No, but in this *specific* instance it gives me latitude to draw comparisons with another player, ie [The said] Owen Hargreaves, who was similarly physically innefectual in a game of football, only, in his case, it's several games of football. //////// Now the bits you missed out. You may recall, I asked a couple of questions. Do you have the vaguest idea who Hargreaves is? Do you even know who he plays for? *AND ***Does he not look to you the least bit effeminate?*** THis last question is a clincher:- given the *specific* usage of 'girl a propos Hargreaves, is it not relevant to know whether ,or not, he in fact LOOKS LIKE A GIRL? And, in some respects, plays like one? What you'r e doing is a game of semantic nit-picking, and I *really* don't want to play any more. I believe I've answered your charges very fully and specifically. Do let me know if you'd like a written affadavit from 'girlfriends', or a palm-print or DNA sample before seeing that you are deliberately ignoring the context of what was said for some juvenile points-scoring excercise, and that you are, in fact pushing at a door long open, and I've gone home....... . Your wasting both of our time, here. :-(( :-0 :-P FInally, between pecking out another slice of pernickity, pedantic piece of *utterly* trivial nit-picking, have you done anything constructive about pointing your wrath at the VERY non-PC B.N.P. nazi party? Course you haven't. It's too much like putting your mouth where someone can retaliate in the real world in a very real sense. Like I said, save it for those who need it. This nonsense is a waste of your time and mine ///// You don't have to if you don't want to:- I, however, shall continue to use the language how I see fit. And, I shall repeat the 'alleged' offence for you, if you so desire. Hargreaves looks and plays like a girl, of the 10 year old primary school variety.So There. I'm certainly nothing to do with SWP brigade and would rather be a Killing Joke Roadie than be associated with that bunch of pillocks. //// Now then: *I* didn't say the SWP were pillocks, or that I necessarily disagreed with their politics:- I just meant that their STYLE of soapbox dogma is particularly stilted, learnt and recited by rote, and so-oo predictably 'right on':- and, as it goes, so reminiscent of your dogmatic utterances. *I* decide my own politics....which I didn't think were particularly radical. But I stand by what I said. Well good for you. I too decide my own politics too. Have done so for some time now, and will continue to have fun with the English language, and if that means cutting classes for "right-on PC lexicon and grammar" then so be it..... THIS CASE, THIS CASE I'VE BEEN WORKING ON SO LONG........ ............................ THIS CASE IS CLOSED........... Derek Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 07:38:57 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] sexism contd........ Ari on sexism: actually Tim I was watching Diana Krall the other night and I commented that I thought she was a real good pianist and that she plays piano like a man (which is to say she hits the keys hard,unlike most female piano players) would this be 'sexist' also? ////////////////// I've been meaning to chime in on this for a while but time has constrained me. I think it was Levi Strauss (the philosopher not the jean manufacturer) who came up with the concept of thte "marked other", that is, engendered nouns that require modifiers, e.g. male nurse, female doctor, etc. "Playing piano like a man" I think falls into this category, and while loaded with cultural prejudice about piano playing, isn't sexist per se. Using the word "girl" is deminutive, infantilizing and ultimately sexist. As pointed out earlier, women use the word in the same way that black culture has adopted "nigger". As a white man I would as much call a woman girl as I would call a black person nigger. Try telling Malka she plays like a man or a woman.... Eric in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 18:45:04 +0000 From: dpbailey@att.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] DOME you're asking the wrong boy ... i'm too lazy to look up how far 100 kilometers is, but i once drove back to memphis (140 miles or so from north little rock) about 10 years ago on xmas eve, i think, after having 2nd thoughts over not having picked up a $6-or-thereabouts alien sex fiend 12" with non-lp tracks. (stuff the turkey or haunted house, probably.) dan > >>My friend found a DOME 12 inch record. He didn't buy it; he's wondering > whether anyone is interested in it? He might go back and get it, it's in > a record store up near the Blue Mountains in NSW about 100 kilometers > from where he lives.<< ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 15:08:05 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IdealCopy = Sexist Euro2004 Chat!: An alleged'sexist' speaks.. In a message dated 23/06/2004 17:43:02 GMT Daylight Time, zak_blakk@yahoo.com writes: Hargreaves looks and plays like a girl, of the 10 year old primary school variety.So There. Ah! Derek & Tim my friends...enough of this.To quote another potentially sexist football phrase "It's handbags at arms reach" or have I misquoted ? True enough we all like Wire & it's a game of two halves or a comeback in two halves...whatever. It's a beautiful game anyway. Heard a nice one on the radio.Poor old Italy.They were in spitting distance of reaching the knockout phase... Chris NP. Japan - Tin Drum ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 21:15:28 +0100 From: Tim Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IdealCopy = Sexist Euro2004 Chat!: An alleged'sexist' speaks.. Chris blows full time whistle on this one... > Ah! Derek & Tim my friends...enough of this.To quote another potentially > sexist football phrase "It's handbags at arms reach" or have I misquoted Fair enough Chris...I'll abide by the Refs' decision here! N.P. Secret Machines ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 16:10:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: RE: [idealcopy] sexism contd........ On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Eric Klaver wrote: > Using the word "girl" is deminutive, infantilizing and ultimately sexist. And what's important here, I think, is to distinguish between calling an action "sexist" and calling a person "sexist". Consider this: Suppose I'm splitting a pizza with The King Of Ur. While I'm off in the bathroom for a minute, he eats the last two slices rather than saving me one. Now, that's greedy. And if I tell him to his face that it was greedy, I don't care whether he responds that he's given millions of dollars to orphans in the past year, because I don't care whether he's a Greedy Person or not. I'm just saying, he did something crappy, and the name for the type of thing he did wrong is "greed". No matter how generous he usually is, that doesn't make it a generous act for him to steal my pizza. Personally, I think using "girl" as a insult to impugn a man is sexist, in that it reinforces the sexism already floating around in society. But one could disagree. If we're going to argue about this, let's argue about the thing ITSELF instead of people getting indignant that their actions could ever be called sexist. Get over it. I like to think I'm a pretty good person, and yet on the average day I probably do a few things that are lazy, a few that are greedy, a few that are spiteful. Doesn't mean I'm lazy, full stop (or greedy or spiteful, etc.) as a matter of my nature. a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:32:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] Dan and K's >>you're asking the wrong boy ... i'm too lazy to look up how far 100 kilometers is, << I'ts 62 and one half miles Dan.............Ari Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:47:35 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] O.T: The Cure... http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?tab=1&type=product&id=1367460&skuId=6679659&productCategoryId= Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 06:39:11 +1000 From: "anastasia" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] DOME Hi Mark, I'm not sure, I'll ask. ana - -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 1:07 AM To: comsat@ihug.com.au; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] DOME >>My friend found a DOME 12 inch record. He didn't buy it; he's wondering whether anyone is interested in it? He might go back and get it, it's in a record store up near the Blue Mountains in NSW about 100 kilometers from where he lives.<< If it's Dome 1 or 2 you should get it youself. Dome 1 is truly wonderful. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 17:22:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] O.T:a better browser? http://www.mozilla.org/products/firefox/ I have been using this browser now for 2-3 months,fully recommend it,it doesn't take much space and I personally prefer it to the ms browser,no pop-ups or drop-in viruses........(so far at least) give it a try,lemme know what you think.Ari __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2004 23:49:11 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] DOME In a message dated 6/23/04 2:48:04 PM, dpbailey@att.net writes: << you're asking the wrong boy ... i'm too lazy to look up how far 100 kilometers is, but i once drove back to memphis (140 miles or so from north little rock) about 10 years ago on xmas eve, i think, after having 2nd thoughts over not having picked up a $6-or-thereabouts alien sex fiend 12" with non-lp tracks. >> well dan, it's about 60 miles...and at today's gas prices, too far to drive back for a record, if you ask me! if anastasia does want it though, i'd think about calling the store and asking if they'd mail it. postage should be less than gas...but then again, i don't know what they're paying in oz, for records or gas! btw, have gas prices doubled outside of the u.s. over the past year? i know ours is still cheap compared to what some pay elsewhere, but it still hurts to look at $2.25 when it was a buck less about a year ago. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2004 14:11:48 +1000 From: Hamish MacKenzie Subject: Re: [idealcopy] DOME At 11:49 PM -0400 23/6/04, Eardrumbuz@aol.com wrote: >i don't know what they're paying in oz, for records >or gas! for petrol per litre, the equivalant of about half a cup of coffee (ie around Au106cents/l) in Sydney at least. It varies wildly over the course of a week and from suburb to suburb. Prices have gone up in the last 12 mths, but by about 20c/l not at all double. as for the cost of records....well,,,the length of a piece of string. h. > >btw, have gas prices doubled outside of the u.s. over the past year? i know >ours is still cheap compared to what some pay elsewhere, but it still >hurts to >look at $2.25 when it was a buck less about a year ago. > >-paul c.d. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #186 *******************************