From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #173 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, June 11 2004 Volume 07 : Number 173 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Mummy was an asteroid, daddy was a non-stick cooking utensil [Fergus Kelly ] Re: [idealcopy] Rockpalast/ Wire TV & So it goes.... [Derek White ] [idealcopy] Another great one gone [Santa Cruzer ] [idealcopy] O.T Ray Charles Dead..... [Ari ] Re: [idealcopy] Rockpalast/ Wire TV & So it goes.... [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] [idealcopy] ot: pictorial timeline of video technology [Eardrumbuz@aol.co] Re: [idealcopy] Ordier - Bruce Gilbert [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] Another great one gone ["Keith Knight" Subject: [idealcopy] Mummy was an asteroid, daddy was a non-stick cooking utensil Derek said: There *was* also a version, on Manzanera & Eno's side project '801' s live album, I think:- this was almost certainly Manzanera's work IIRC. He certainly did the honours when I saw 801 play at the Reading Festival , here in the UK circa 1975 or '76. ((( You saw 801 ?? Ye bollox !! Love that live album. Good one to torture Mark with... :) Great version of Third Uncle. Fergus __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 03:54:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Fergus Kelly Subject: [idealcopy] Stalled Plate Jan said: The only place in the Netherlands where you could find these musical-art outings like the TG-box (on cassette) or Randy Greif's Alice in Wonderland. Cassettes hidden in milk-boxes or a ceedee made by Fergus. Compare them a little to These records in London or Metamkine in Paris. You can reach the Staalplaat shop only physical now in Berlin. There web-site shop will stay. http://www.staalplaat.com ((( That's really shit about Staalplaat's Amsterdam shop, a wonderful hive of fascinating oddities. I was in the old shop (near The Rembrandt House) a few times in the early 90s, and once in the most recent premises two years ago. Liked the first spot best. A real Aladin's cave. I'd easily while away an hour just trawling through things. Staff always very friendly & helpful. Like These Records you could spend as long as you like and listen to as much stuff as you wanted. AND they bought some cassettes, and latterly, CDs off me - handy for reducing the bill for the STACKS of CDs I bought ! The end of an era. Fergus __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 04:53:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Derek White Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rockpalast/ Wire TV & So it goes.... Tim wrote: my first experience of Joy Division....(aged 13) That was the clip with some stock footage of motorways and cars overlaid on the top, went well with the beat and Ian doing the hand jive...was it Shadowplay? I saw that compilation too:I thought the song was "Transmission", but I could very well be wrong, as a lot of braincells have probably gone since then.........for a show ostensibly devoted to celebrating 10 years of punk, there *were* some omissions, and whatever their merits, I'm not sure that I'd call XTC (who featured in the show IIRC) 'punk'. Good stuff, though on the whole. Was it that compilation where they had a clip of Magazine playing in some past-it's-best ex-fleapit like Ardwick Apollo, or similar? And a Buzzcocks show where Howard D joined them for "Boredom"? > > Someone, somewhere must have been recording that show.... technology was > available in 76-77. There'll be an 45-year-old ex-punker in Bolton with a box of > VCR tapes in the garage, with every show on them.... Too true..probably on Betamax though.... > > As for TOTP, there was a show on BBC4 last night about the Black & White > Minstrel Show (hideous racist variety show in which white singers performed > popular songs in blackface, which ran on prime time BBC from 1957 to - wait for it - > 1978!!!), in which the follwing fact was revealed: > > Number of Surviving B&WM episodes: 80 > Number of surviving 60s TOTPs: 4 > > You don't know whether to laugh or cry. I'll take cry, I think. It *does* show perfectly the mindset prevailing at the Beeb at the time though, that they thought this indefensible kak was somehow of more cultural significance than all those early Top of The Pops shows, replete with irreplaceable performances from bands and artistes who's influence continues even today, (Don't forget, this was NOT an accidental loss: the matter of these old TOTP vids was discussed & ruled upon that they could be wiped. Now of course, many people like us would really like them to exist still, but you'd be hard pushed to find anyone who'll admit to even watching the B&W minstrel show, let alone *enjoy* it! Well, as Tim mentions below in the anecdote about his pal at work who actually used to be in it, a lot of people who watched it were largely ignorant/innocent of the huge offense it caused, and innocently watched it 'cos they (of the generation that were young in WW2, brought up on 'easy listening') "liked the tunes"....... I can offer the following as a snapshot: when I was a kid, my (now late) parents would sit and watch it , as I say, ignorant of the offence. I, in my childishness was dimly aware there was something not quite right about it, but couldn't define what. IN the show's later years, there started to be an increase in the debate surrounding the show in the press. When the issues were spelt out , it dawned on a lot of erstwhile veiwers that it *was* deeply wrong to spend primetime Saturday watching sanitized versions of old slave worksongs shorn of all their context, and had second thoughts about watching it. I know it 'disappeared' from the schedule in the White household long before the axe fell on it officially, never to return, and from what I recall, when the BBC axe fell on it, beyond the usual right-wing suspects in the popular press, there wasn't that many howls of anguish considering I think that it still unbelievably pulled in 6 or 7 million veiwers. I certainly wouldn't class my folks as racists, just older people for whom that easy-on-the-ear crooning was what they wanted to hear, although it's my personal idea of HELL. I suspect that was typical of their veiwers, and when it departed the TV screens, I think most people were happy to consign it to the past. What struck me was how incredibly unlistenable and unsettling all that music was, horribly White renderings of spirituals/slave chants mixed with the dregs of cheapo music hall and lame 'comic' moments . ///// You won't get any arguments from me, there! Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:21:48 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rockpalast/ Wire TV & So it goes.... > There's also a very early clip of the Fall on the '86 compilation, as well as > the usual stuff (Pistols, Clash, Costello etc). There were a few decent punk > retrospectives around 86-87; there was a good LWT one called Short Sharp > Shock, on which are featured (very briefly) the Bears. George Gill's only TV moment > - he's shown for about 4 seconds ;-) Anorak Alert!! In case anyone's interested, the tracklisting for The Way We Were was as follows...(though there's a few titles missed off) THE WAY WE WERE SEX PISTOLS - ANARCHY IN THE UK ELVIS COSTELLO - ALISON BUZZCOCKS - WHAT DO I GET JOHN COOPER CLARKE - DAILY EXPRESS IGGY POP - INTERVIEW/THE PASSENGER WRECKLESS ERIC - WHOLE WIDE WORLD IAN DURY - REQUIEM/LORD'S PRAYER PENETRATION - DON'T DICTATE BLONDIE - THE FALL - PSYCHOMAFIA/INDUSTRIAL ESTATE THE JAM - IN THE CITY/BRICKS & MORTAR JORDON - INTERVIEW TOM ROBINSON BAND - GLAD TO BE GAY JOHNNY THUNDER - INTERVIEW ELVIS COSTELLO - WATCHING THE DETECTIVES XTC - NEON SHUFFLE JONATHON RICHMAN - INTERVIEW NICK LOWE - SIOUXSIE & THE BANSHEE'S - CHERRY VANILLA - INTERVIEW MAGAZINE - MOTORCADE DEVO - INTERVIEW THE CLASH - WHAT'S MY NAME/GARAGELAND POLY STYRENE - INTERVIEW SHAM 69 - ANGELS WITH DIRTY FACES JOY DIVISION - SHADOWPLAY A lot of this was later repeated in a programme called PUNK (circa '91), though there were a couple of interesting variations. SEX PISTOLS - ANARCHY IN THE UK BUZZCOCKS - WHAT DO I GET THE JAM - IN THE CITY PENETRATION - DON'T DICTATE THE CLASH - CAPITAL RADIO/JANIE JONES SIOUXSIE & THE BANSHEE'S - MAKE UP TO BREAK UP IGGY POP - LUST FOR LIFE JOHN COOPER CLARKE - KUNG FU INTERNATIONAL THE CLASH - WHAT'S MY NAME/GARAGELAND IGGY POP - THE PASSENGER SIOUXSIE & THE BANSHEE'S - METAL POSTCARD BUZZCOCKS - EVER FALLEN IN LOVE UNDERTONES - TEENAGE KICKS JOY DIVISION - SHADOWPLAY The Pistols, Iggy & Clash clips got wheeled out again in the mid-90's on the mis-leadingly titled From The Beatles to Oasis - it actually opened with Jerry Lee Lewis, Gene Vincent, etc - which celebrated 30 (I think) years of music on Granada television. Taking in The Doors, T.Rex, Happy Mondays, etc it ended with Tony Wilson introducing some footage of Oasis performing Live Forever at the rock'n'roll capital of the world - the Buckley Tiv ; ) > > Dismal, wasn't it. Two shows that stick in the mind from the 60s were that > > one and The Good Old Days, a faux-Victorian variety show, which like the B& > > WMs, lasted well beyond its sell-by date (into the 1980s). Don't even get me started on The Good Old Days. I *hated* that!! Keith np Notwist - neon golden ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 06:39:39 -0700 From: "Matt Hursh" Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene Speaking of "sweet" guitarists (no, not Andy Scott...!), anyone heard Levene's new record, 'Killer in the Crowd'? If so, is it worth looking into? i heard one track on a sampler, and it was pretty interesting...thick, loud, distorted and (thus) kind of--gasp--Read & Burny. Could just be an exception, though... I'm wary of former PiL member solo stuff. Lydon's record was, at best, generally awful, and Jah Wobble's worldbeats make me want to cry. In a bad way. Getting away from the albatross, Matt ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:03:57 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene I think they all need a good kick up the arse! Get back together and put out some decent music! All of that wasted talent... wnd3 --- Matt Hursh wrote: > Speaking of "sweet" guitarists (no, not Andy > Scott...!), anyone heard > Levene's new record, 'Killer in the Crowd'? If so, > is it worth looking > into? i heard one track on a sampler, and it was > pretty > interesting...thick, loud, distorted and (thus) kind > of--gasp--Read & > Burny. Could just be an exception, though... > > I'm wary of former PiL member solo stuff. Lydon's > record was, at best, > generally awful, and Jah Wobble's worldbeats make me > want to cry. In a > bad way. > > Getting away from the albatross, > Matt ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 10:52:25 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene > I think they all need a good kick up the arse! > Get back together and put out some decent music! > All of that wasted talent... > > I've said this before, but if Lydon wants to be remembered as a credible artist (rather thana loveable cockernee punk rock geezer) he could do worse than get Levene, Wobble and Atkins together, hire the RFH and, in the current vogue for 'whole album' sets, play Metal Box from start to finish. With Public Image and Annalisa for an encore. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:22:26 -0700 From: "Matt Hursh" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene Think of all the music rag blowjobs that'd get... The time for it is PERFECT too, at least in terms of trendy climates. I love Lydon regardless, love his "hijinks", but it wouldn't kill him to get serious for an hour. Matt >>> 6/10/2004 9:52:25 AM >>> > I think they all need a good kick up the arse! > Get back together and put out some decent music! > All of that wasted talent... > > I've said this before, but if Lydon wants to be remembered as a credible artist (rather thana loveable cockernee punk rock geezer) he could do worse than get Levene, Wobble and Atkins together, hire the RFH and, in the current vogue for 'whole album' sets, play Metal Box from start to finish. With Public Image and Annalisa for an encore. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:30:34 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene Of course, there would be a dvd box set of the entire event. > I've said this before, but if Lydon wants to be > remembered as a credible > artist (rather thana loveable cockernee punk rock > geezer) he could do worse than > get Levene, Wobble and Atkins together, hire the RFH > and, in the current vogue > for 'whole album' sets, play Metal Box from start to > finish. With Public > Image and Annalisa for an encore. > > Mark ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 08:34:38 -0700 From: "Matt Hursh" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene NTSC or PAL though? >>> Monochromatic Man 6/10/2004 10:30:34 AM >>> Of course, there would be a dvd box set of the entire event. > I've said this before, but if Lydon wants to be > remembered as a credible > artist (rather thana loveable cockernee punk rock > geezer) he could do worse than > get Levene, Wobble and Atkins together, hire the RFH > and, in the current vogue > for 'whole album' sets, play Metal Box from start to > finish. With Public > Image and Annalisa for an encore. > > Mark ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 16:43:29 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene Would probably be released in both considering how many copies it would sell. ;-) --- Matt Hursh wrote: > NTSC or PAL though? > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:11:44 -0700 From: "Matt Hursh" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene Only fooling (in relation to The Great DVD Debate)...but yes. >>> Monochromatic Man 6/10/2004 10:43:29 AM >>> Would probably be released in both considering how many copies it would sell. ;-) --- Matt Hursh wrote: > NTSC or PAL though? > ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - sooooo many all-new ways to express yourself http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 09:36:43 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] [OT] Keith Levene > NTSC or PAL though? I'm not touching that no. No sir! (^_-) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:18:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: [idealcopy] Another great one gone Just read that Ray Charles passed away today at age 73. Can't think of anything else to say but "Goodbye Mr. Charles and thank you for the decades of great music". RJH __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 15:34:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Subject: [idealcopy] O.T Ray Charles Dead..... .................Just announced:been a fan since '58/'59.saw him once about 6 years ago at the Saratoga (N.Y) jazz Festival,he sucked.....................but HE put it down to the 'sound engineers' and walked off stage after the third number.................he was the last act of a three-day open-air festival,so I wasn't too phased......may he sing forever.Ari Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:07:06 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rockpalast/ Wire TV & So it goes.... In a message dated 6/9/04 9:48:06 PM, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: << > >>Someone, somewhere must have been recording that show.... technology was > >available in 76-77. There'll be an 45-year-old ex-punker in Bolton with a > box of > >VCR tapes in the garage, with every show on them.... > > Too true..probably on Betamax though....<< Betamax hadn't been invented then! The first home videos were VCR format - single spool tapes, like 8-track cartridges. 1 hour maximum I think. These were made by Philips and came out in 1972. VHS came out in late 77, so even that would have been too late for So It Goes. Betamax followed, crucially, one year later. Technically better than VHS, but by then VHS strode the rental shop firmament like a colossus. And JVC licenced out its VHS technology whereas Sony kept Betamax all to itself. Rather like PC/Windows versus Apple Mac. Philips came out with an even better format called Video 2000 in 1980. It bombed. You also had industrial-grade UMatic videos, which were built like a Sherman tank and had huge tapes, like VHS but about half as big again. We had them at the office I worked in 1980 for showing promo films on... good quality but useless! So even if someone was taping SIG, it would have been on VCR or UMatic. The latter would have been highly unlikely, so you'd have to find a working VCR to copy them off! >> could've been beta. beta was actually around for a few years before vhs hit. my friend's dad had a betamax with a camera in 1975. it had probably just been introduced cuz they were the kind of people who were always buying the newest home entertainment stuff. sony, as you said, kept beta to itself, which i believe was at least part of the reason (perhaps the whole reason) why jvc went with the different format. apple, apparantly thought nothing of sony's blunder and followed suit, popularizing the graphical user interface and mouse and not licensing out the technology used in the lisa and mac. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:48:53 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] ot: pictorial timeline of video technology i wrote: << could've been beta >> decided to do a little searchin and came across this cool site, which really seems to be meant for rca videodisc enthusiasts, but it has this neat timeline with very cool photos and descriptions of just about everything related to the vcr, et al. the betamax was indeed out in '75, with vhs following 2 years later. http://www.cedmagic.com/history/ don't miss the ampex signature v! click the link there for 1963:first consumer-only vtr. and check out the price tag!!! - -another the paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 21:54:51 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ordier - Bruce Gilbert In a message dated 6/10/04 12:55:12 AM, hmackenz@bio.usyd.edu.au writes: << Ordier is there to order! Can anyone vouch for the reliability or otherwise of Norman Records? http://www.normanrecords.com >> i haven't ordered from them, but parasol and ab-cd both have it for about $14.50 (u.s.$) and they're very reliable. the parasol folks are especially nice. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 07:58:33 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Another great one gone Don't know if it's just me but I just can't understand the fuss about Ray Charles at all. His voice is nothing special and his music does nothing for me (at least from which I've heard). Yes, he was poor and blind and wrote 'Georgia on my Mind'. But I've got to be missing something... Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Santa Cruzer Sent: 10 June 2004 23:18 To: 'idealcopy@smoe.org' Subject: [idealcopy] Another great one gone Just read that Ray Charles passed away today at age 73. Can't think of anything else to say but "Goodbye Mr. Charles and thank you for the decades of great music". RJH __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Yahoo! Messenger. http://messenger.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 03:19:27 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Another great one gone In a message dated 11/06/2004 08:06:54 GMT Daylight Time, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: Yes, he was poor and blind and wrote 'Georgia on my Mind'. But I've got to be missing something... Got to agree there Keith.Sad loss though. Chris ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #173 *******************************