From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #111 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, April 9 2004 Volume 07 : Number 111 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Wire on ebay and bootlegs [kevin eden ] Re: [idealcopy] Wire on ebay and bootlegs/my last word....... [Ari Britt ] [idealcopy] rat in the museum [Alistair Tear ] [idealcopy] Wire boot on eBay [=?iso-8859-1?q?Phillip=20Blakeney?= Subject: [idealcopy] Wire on ebay and bootlegs Hmmm, seems I have opened up a hornets nest of debate on the moral rights of an artist to control their own work. This was not my intention. Ari's point that once its out there its out there and so be it, is misplaced and ill-judged. I beleive it is the right of the artist to control the quality, quantity and outlets of their work. To me a perfect model is Robert Fripps DGM label. Not only to do they release studio recordings of King Crimson and others in the stable, but excellent quality 'bootleg' recordings. AND the artists get paid. Thats one thing Ari has missed. I am not attacking Ari, but the whole point of me being allowed by Wire to send out CDR's of these recordings (and there were only a handful sent out, and I still have their signed agreements stating they would not pass onto 3rd parties) was that it was a gift. The only money made was the cost of a CD and postage. So where does this leave us. Well Phillip has been ripped off, or he is stupid enough to buy it, or both. The person selling it, and no doubt will continue to do so, is laughing all the way to the bank. On a brighter note. Thanks to those of you who said kind words about the book and WMO. Much appreciated. And if anyone wants WMO stock there is still some left. Thought I'd get that in. Ha ha ha. kevin eden http://www.wireviews.com/wmo/index.html "dreams that money can buy" Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 02:47:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire on ebay and bootlegs/my last word....... kevin eden wrote: >Hmmm, seems I have opened up a hornets nest of debate on the moral rights of an artist to control their own work. This was not my intention. Ari's point that once its out there its out there and so be it, is misplaced and ill-judged. I beleive it is the right of the artist to control the quality, quantity and outlets of their work. To me a perfect model is Robert Fripps DGM label. Not only to do they release studio recordings of King Crimson and others in the stable, but excellent quality 'bootleg' recordings. AND the artists get paid. Thats one thing Ari has missed. I am not attacking Ari, but the whole point of me being allowed by Wire to send out CDR's of these recordings (and there were only a handful sent out, and I still have their signed agreements stating they would not pass onto 3rd parties) was that it was a gift. The only money made was the cost of a CD and postage.< This was not stated at the begining of this 'conversation',so I can now see why you'd be upset,however I re-itterate that why not put it out there so the artists (in this case Wire) DO get paid for it and not some hard-up kid in Brazil trying to make an easy buck,otherwise we 'Phillips' shall continue to purchase it on ebay. Nor do I think that Phillip is stupid for purchasing a cd of what is obviously one of his favorite groups,I have purchased every album Wire have released,I also have,through ebay,several of their 'singles' c.d's,they (Wire) got no money from those trannsactions would anyone deny me the 'right' to purchase them? those I couldn't find were burned for me by members of this list,would anyone deny me the pleasure of listening to them because they are no longer in print.? I also have Kevins book,and would (well almost) give my right arm to get him to sign it,that's how much a fan of Wire I am.........Phillip very kindly sent me a poster of the Wire Aus. tour,it is framed and in a prominent position in my home,why wouldn't I want a c.d I'm not 'supposed' to have,it's human nature surely.My 'reasoning 'has never been about Kevin,of whom I have great respect,he knows that,and now you all know that,it's about the mindset of an ardent fan of any musician wanting to make his collection complete........... This is MY last word on the subject.Ari Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway - Enter today ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 11:26:34 +0100 From: Alistair Tear Subject: [idealcopy] rat in the museum Banksy strikes again... http://tinyurl.com/32sa6 ************************************************************************* The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London Street Management hereby excludes any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this e-mail and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify postmaster@Streetmanagement.org.uk. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 14:17:03 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] chairs still missing / werthers original moment Sent my recent email re getting Chairs Missing on cd to a lad I was in school with and got the following reply. > Haven't played Chairs Missing for aeons - but it's one of those albums I > know I'll always love. My fave has always been the protean psychedelia of > French Film Blurred. I remember you brought in your old tape recorder to > the 6th form, and played the first 3 tracks, you had taped off Peel's show, > the night before. Gr8 memory! The internet & downloads, etc, may be a fab > thing, but do people still interact with new stuff in the primitive, but > far more charming manner of our distant youth? Cue: Old fart moment, > reminiscing, whilst chewing a Werther's Original, etc ... > And, hey ... > bring on those bastard-stinging-nettles for ANYONE who doesn't like the > piano solo on the OM single version! Look out Derek ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2004 15:58:00 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= Subject: [idealcopy] OT - here's why bootlegs are a bad idea... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4005667830 I have already asked the seller if they are high. (I was looking for Cassette Boy. That's how I stumbled across this) wnd3 ===== Edward? Will Heaven be like Swansea? Yes, Tubbs...only bigger. ____________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends today! Download Messenger Now http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 00:26:20 +0200 From: "Jan J Noorda" Subject: [idealcopy] Minimal Compact on Tour http://www.crammed.be/news/index.htm MAY2004 03 Paris: Centre Pompidou 05 Rennes: Ubu 06 Lille: Splendid 07 Nantes: Olympic 08 Mortaix: Club Coatelan 11 Nancy: Terminal Export 12 Strasbourg: Laiterie 13 Bruxelles: Botanique 15 Hasselt: Kunstencentrum 17 Amsterdam: Paradiso and a vinyl version of Returning Wheel (Remixes and Remakes 2LP version) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 11:05:26 +1000 (EST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Phillip=20Blakeney?= Subject: [idealcopy] Wire boot on eBay As I am mentioned in despatchs on this issue, I will add a comment. (Note I merely obtained an intriguing item from eBay, with no knowledge of its history or provenance.) As something of a completist, of course I am going to be interested in this material, just the same as I have "Not About To Die" on vinyl, and I have just made a purchase of the "Midnight Bahnhof Cafe" boot. The bootleg has a looooong tradition in rock music, and whilst I accept that there is always a breach of trust *somewhere* in order for the material to appear in the first place, I don't accept that it necessarilty *wrong* for later 'consumers' to want the music. I don't think I need to apologise to Wire- as I am the owner of well over 100 legitimate Wire artifacts, I am already a major contributor to the coffers of Wire royalties. That's the thing about bootleg consumers, they are usually the greatest fans! So if the vilify the boot collector you vilify your greatest fans. This is an old, old argument! Now....the discussion of the ethics of the amateur tape trader versus the producer of bootleg CDRs for PROFIT is a whole different kettle of fish. I would rather get my music for free as a trade but does that then make it somehow more right? I am however, sorry that Kevin has been placed in a difficult position over this. Phillip from Australia - --------------------------------- Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2004 09:31:57 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] chairs still missing / werthers original moment > Sent my recent email re getting Chairs Missing on cd to a lad I was in > school with and got the following reply. >> Haven't played Chairs Missing for aeons - but it's one of those albums I >> know I'll always love. My fave has always been the protean psychedelia of >> French Film Blurred. Great taste your friend has Keith. I've always thought the Practice Makes Perfect & French Film Blurred diptych was Wire at its very best. Greatest opening of any album ever imo! To me CM's only weaker moment is Heartbeat - that one never has done much for me. Yesterday I played it a couple of times in the car and the one I kinda "rediscovered" was Men 2nd... truely wonderful track! > Finally got round to getting Chairs Missing on cd recently. As it's always > been my favorite Wire LP (other than a shortlived pro-154 spell in the 80's), > I thought it was about time. I should think so too yeah! :-) > And it's been so great to hear it again - I hadn't played my vinyl copy for > 3-4 yrs I guess. I still love the tracks that I probably liked best - Practice > Makes Perfect (quite possibly my fave Wire track) and Mercy etc, but hearing > some of the other tracks again was just as fruitful - I'd almost forgotten > just how wonderful tracks like Marooned and Used To were. But the track I've > been enjoying most this time round is - bizarrely?* - From The Nursery. So > what do you reckon - is this because it's one of the CM tracks closest to Pink > Flag and therefore closer linked to their current manifesto? Or is just > because - with it's PF on steroids riff, great whoopy noises and Syd-like > chorus - it's a bloody brilliant track!! Indeed, I've started to think that > the closing triple whammy of FTN / Used To / Too Late is almost as great as > the opening PMP / French Film Blurred / Another The Letter that's always been > one of my favourite examples of track sequencing (it's Wire's very own Sgt > Pepper / With a Little Help / Lucy... IMO!!) ever since I first heard those > three on Peel when I was still in short trousers (OK, I was a late > developer!) I always thought of I Feel Mysterious Today to be closest to Pink Flag - almost like a haunting twin to Strange. Speaking of guitars - I've always had the greatest trouble playing the main chuggy bit of Practice Makes Perfect whilst trying to sing. Same with Three Girl Rhumba. I therefor wonder if Colin plays those bits himself or does Bruce? Perhaps it's just me being underdevelopped motorically... > Getting CM on cd has also meant that I've finally got the former b-side / > bonus track Former Airline, as this was one of the few (official) Wire tracks > I didn't have. Although I couldn't say I knew it, it sounded vaguely familiar > so I suspect I'd heard it many years ago. Still, it was an interesting to hear > something - from way back when - by a band you love *that you didn't know*, > other than dodgy live recordings or stuff they didn't think was good enough to > release at the time - which, after all, is usually the way with these things! > But as much as I like it, whether it was worth waiting more than 25 yrs for is > perhaps another thing ; ) > > And as one of the resident pop pickers on this list, I have to mention the > singles - I Am The Fly, an exponent of almost Madcap like silliness that my > five year old has already taken to singing, and of course, Outdoor Miner where > melody and arrangements collide to make one of the most gorgeous slices of pop > perfection I've heard. And whoever said they disliked the clunky piano > addition on the 7" version can go and spank themselves with dock leaves as far > as I'm concerned. I love it! I only just really discovered how much fun it is to pay extra attention to the two guitars "pingponging" on I Am The Fly. What a wonderfull and weird track! Having the Outdoor Miner & I Am The Fly right it the center of the album is such a treat! Like the main course of a really really great meal (which would definitely make Practice Makes Perfect & French Film Blurred THE greatest appetizers ever!. Still, there's no Wire album with a dessert like 12XU!) > Still think Elvis Costello ripped it off, mind ; ) I used to have a toylike Casio keyboard which only needed to be hit once every chord change to make all these nice 'n cheesy fills. In my memory it sounded exactly like the added piano bit of the Outdoor Miner single. Like it a lot! Bart ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #111 *******************************