From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #16 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, January 17 2004 Volume 07 : Number 016 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V7 #13 [Bart van Damme ] RE: [idealcopy] more cage news! ["Keith Knight" ] RE: [idealcopy] Prog v punk ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" ] Re: [idealcopy] Prog v punk [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) ["Jason Rogers" ] RE: [idealcopy] more cage news! ["Eric Klaver" ] Re: [idealcopy] Groningen/Peel ["Eric Klaver" ] [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V7 #15 ["Mileta Okiljevic" ] [idealcopy] Re: A-Ba-Ni-Bi [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing ["Stephen Graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] more cage news! [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) ["dan bailey] Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) [MarkBursa@a] Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) ["Keith Astb] Re: [idealcopy] Prog v punk ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing ["Tim" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:35:10 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V7 #13 > Don't believe him Mileta,he tells that all the guys.........Ari Try me Ari... leave the list for a whole year and then come back. Bart (_+) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:12:30 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Prog v punk - -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] Sent: 16 January 2004 15:40 To: B.Clements@bepp.co.uk; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Prog v punk When I bumped into Jet Black and Dave Greenfield in a hotel in Wales in late '77 I don't think I'd ever heard of the Stranglers. When I said I liked Genesis they just said they were OK (I think Mr G even said he liked Selling England by the Pound, but my memory may be playing tricks on me). Jet 'n' Dave probably saw Genesis as "young whippersnappers" Mark ;-) Ha! I think Jet and Dave must have been in their 30s while the members of Genesis must have been around 40 at the time - not much in it though! Come to think of it I did stand next to Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford at Newbury racecourse once (Mike's wife is/was an amateur jockey). What an exciting life, eh?! ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:20:24 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: [idealcopy] Trout Mask Replica Seeing the burn requests made me decide to offer my CD of the Captain's Trout Mask Replica for a swop - offers offlist, perhaps. I've had it a few years and don't think I've managed to get through it, so I might as well have something I'll play instead! Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:59:19 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Prog v punk Not to mention when he played all of Tubular Bells in one go, which sounded fairly radical at the time. One of my favourite Peel memories is of a show in November 76 when he spent an hour playing a track by virtually every punk band who had recorded something by that time - mainly American of course as only The Damned had produced anything in the UK. We got Richard Hell, The Ramones, Tuff Darts, Pere Ubu's 'Final Solution'... One felt on the verge of something great. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of CHRISWIRE@aol.com Sent: 15 January 2004 19:03 To: B.Clements@bepp.co.uk; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Prog v punk In a message dated 15/01/2004 12:57:06 GMT Standard Time, B.Clements@bepp.co.uk writes: > I was pretty impressed when Peely > played the WHOLE of Heroes LP in one go, as well... > I was impressed with Peel playing the whole of Side 1 of Phaedra in 1973.His favourite album of that year I believe. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:15:43 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] more cage news! Tim wrote; Everything that can be said about this has been said, and I think most of the membership this list is sussed enough to deal with 4'33" for what it is. (or isn't) - -------------- Well, I'm going to say something more about it anyway! I listened in to the broadcast on Radio 3 last night on the kitchen radio which is normally on as wallpaper talk radio. It was pretty strange as I had been half-listening for it and then realised that it must have started as the radio had gone quiet. I just hung around the radio listening to, well, nothing. Then after a few minutes there was an outbreak of coughing and nervous laughter. I thought that the audience had cocked it up but then it went silent again and I realised that this was a break in the piece. My experience was of the ambient noise in the house - kitchen noises, the kids playing, even though I called them over to experience the broadcast (which delivered about 10 seconds of silence on their part). I the watched it shortly after on BBC 4 who were broadcasting the whole concert after the event. This was even better. The conductor came on, readied himself with the baton and then just stood there. The orchestra held on to their instruments tightly, fearful of making a sound, and the audience were either rapt, smiling or in a closed-eye trance. There was some coughing during the piece but largely the silence was maintained - as the commentator said there was less coughing than is now commonplace among British audiences. At the end there was a huge outpouring and the applause brought the conductor back for three curtain calls. It was a genuinely tense piece of music, resulting partly I think from the fact that it was the full orchestral version rather than a smaller ensemble. It's easy to slip into Pseud's Corner mode on something like this but I was really impressed. The radio broadcast should be up on the BBC Radio 3 site soon, if not already (can't check as I'm listening to a streamed broadcast of 'Mixing It' on R3 and Diamanda Galas is doing her stuff and I wouldn't want to shut her up). Another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 06:28:50 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] more cage news! In a message dated 17/01/2004 11:20:25 GMT Standard Time, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: > Everything that can be said about this has been said, and I think most > of > the membership this list is sussed enough to deal with 4'33" for what it > is. > (or isn't) > -------------- > > Well, I'm going to say something more about it anyway! So will I I remembered to catch it too.While it didn't knock me for six it was an interesting thing to experience.Watching the audience reaction was probably the most poignant thing.Some people were amused,some taking it seriously,some looking at everyone else. At the end of each movement the relief on the audience was quite obvious as they coughed & resettled. I thought the conductor wiping his brow of sweat at the end of the first movement was a nice touch.It was very tense until then & the audience was laughing more with nervous relief I thought. I was sitting at home downstairs on my own just with the clock ticking. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 12:38:29 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing Of the Boo Radleys output I really like Giant Steps and Wake Up! - there's a great backwards vocal moment on the last album and it's a cheery sort of work. I've got an unplayed Brave Captain album somewhere which I picked up second-hand a few months ago - must dig it out. Don't think anyone's mentioned Ride yet - the doyens of the era. God, those early eps and the first album were good, and they delivered live (as an aside I remember me and my friends edging past some young girls at one Ride gig to get down the front and one of the girls saying 'God, there's a lot of old people here tonight' - and this was 1991! I take succour from the fact that she probably hasn't seen a gig in years while I'm going to see The Shins next week). Mind you I never latched on to MBV (I'm with Miles on this one) - although I keep meaning to dig out Loveless just to check, after the ongoing praise here. The second Ride album bucked the trend, however, and was bollocks. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of MarkBursa@aol.com Thre's certainly a grain of truth in this - I'd agree completely re Souvlaki and Giant Steps - both excellent albums, and better than you'd have expected those bands to be capable of making. I liked the BR's subsequent 'pop' album too - also if you see the It's Lulu single with the Stereolab and Sean O'Hagan remixes, buy it.... Shoegazing's fate was not dissimilar to Prog's - a younger generation finding the shoegazers too introspective and unexciting, hence latching on to Grunge as a more dynamic entertainment. Cf Prog vs Punk. At that point the term Shoegazing was hardly used in a complimentary way! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:09:47 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Prog v punk One of my favourite Peel memories is of a show in November 76 when he spent an hour playing a track by virtually every punk band who had recorded something by that time - mainly American of course as only The Damned had produced anything in the UK. We got Richard Hell, The Ramones, Tuff Darts, Pere Ubu's 'Final Solution'... One felt on the verge of something great. Another the Keith - ---- Yes, McLaren makes all that fuss about starting things in the UK with the Pistols but some of the US bands must have been inspiring people in Britain. The Pistols did succeed in getting a lot of headlines, of course, but I'd have thought that hearing/seeing the Ramones would've done a lot to get people trying a one or two-chord thrash... and just look where that can lead! Bruno PS All this talk about Cage reminded me of the chilling silence in Final Solution. I've got a live recording of that from '75 - now that's going back a bit! ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:17:37 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: [idealcopy] Groningen/Peel Anyone interested in how to say the place name of the home of Bart (there, a sentence in English without an apostrophe) may care to log onto http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hometruths/ and listen to the start of this week's show. Perhaps Bart can give us a rating out of 10 of Peel's pronounciation? Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:15:43 +0100 From: "Jan J Noorda" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Groningen/Peel Groningen? First g like a spanish J in b.e. Jose and the second g like an english one An other pronounciation for Groningen is Grunn ( with the G like a spanish J in Jose) or Grinns ( this is frisian with a english g and the i like a kind af english a) For frisian the word for border and the province Groningen is the same > Anyone interested in how to say the place name of the home of Bart (there, a > sentence in English without an apostrophe) may care to log onto > http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/hometruths/ and listen to the start of this > week's show. > > Perhaps Bart can give us a rating out of 10 of Peel's pronounciation? > > Bruno > Jan (whose family comes from G....) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:01:30 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Prog v punk > >>Ha! I think Jet and Dave must have been in their 30s while the members of > Genesis must have been around 40 at the time - not much in it though! Come > to think of it I did stand next to Tony Banks and Mike Rutherford at Newbury > racecourse once (Mike's wife is/was an amateur jockey). What an exciting > life, eh?!<< Jet Black born 1948 Dave Greenfield born 1949 Phil Collins born 1951 The rest of Genesis born 1950 Bruce Gilbert born 1946 Puts a different complexion on it doesn't it! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:21:32 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing > >>Of the Boo Radleys output I really like Giant Steps and Wake Up! -<< I'd agree that was their good period. The next one was trying to hard to be a rock album. > >>Don't think anyone's mentioned Ride yet - the doyens of the era. << Certainly the shoegazers most likely to be a hit band - though they never quite managed it. >>God, > those early eps and the first album were good, and they delivered > live<< Only saw them once, at Subterrania supported by Galaxie 500. Very good gig - some of it was broadcast on Snub. > >>(as an aside I remember me and my friends edging past some young girls > at one Ride gig to get down the front and one of the girls saying 'God, > there's a lot of old people here tonight' - and this was 1991! I take > succour from the fact that she probably hasn't seen a gig in years while > I'm going to see The Shins next week).<< What day is that? Might be up for that. >>> Mind you I never latched on to MBV (I'm with Miles on this one) - > although I keep meaning to dig out Loveless just to check, after the > ongoing praise here.<< It's a really exceptional album and it maps out a future that has never been pursued. Still gets better each time I play it.. > >>The second Ride album bucked the trend, however, and was bollocks.<< Didn't mind Going Blank Again - less shoegazey, more pop. And I'll probably find no supporters here but I really enjoyed Carnival of Light, an album that was universally panned. Tarantula is pants though - a tossed-off contract filler. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:47:18 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) >Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:51:24 GMT >From: P J Kane >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) > >still, never turn down seeing them again. you _must_ go to this -- it'll >be great... > Yesterday morning, I bought tickets to the following shows: The Church @ Variety Playhouse, March 3 Richard Thompson @ Variety Playhouse, March 12 The Church show is a no-brainer decision because I've been a Church fan for so long and have always wanted to see them. Also, I heard a couple of songs from their upcoming album, Forget Yourself, and was quite impressed. This looks to be the best new Church album in years. The Richard Thompson show was a very spur-of-the-moment decision yesterday morning. I've never seen him play live before, but I know from various recordings I've heard that he is one of the best guitarists out there...perhaps The Best. Friends have also told me that Thompson's shows are incredible. My only real familiarity with Richard Thompson's music is with the album, Shoot Out The Lights, so this show should be an eye-opener. I'm still considering the British Sea Power show at Echo Lounge on March 17.....and, by way of email update this morning, I just found out that Broken Social Scene is playing Echo Lounge on March 23. March may be a four concert month for me. Not bad, except in financial terms. Still, these will probably be some great shows. Jason Now Playing: Good Friday Experiment - Spread Out Inside _________________________________________________________________ Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up  fast & reliable Internet access with prime features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:33:28 -0800 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] more cage news! >Tim wrote; > >Everything that can be said about this has been said, and I think most >of >the membership this list is sussed enough to deal with 4'33" for what it >is. >(or isn't) >-------------- While I didn't "listen to" the broadcast of 4'33" I have to say that the idea resonates with other experiences in my life. I don't think that the piece is intyended "to knock you for six" as someone mentioned as the piece isn't about the piece itself. Like Barnett Newman's Yellow Edge it at once acknowledges the frame but also resists the frame-- which might, on one level, explain some of the nervous tension in the audience. 4'33" for me resonates with 9-11. My experience of the event in the days following were, errily not unlike the Cage piece. In September 2001 my company was installing a rooftop garden in downtown Toronto. When you are up high, you experience more of the happenings in the sky than what is going on storeys below. In the days after 9-11 the most visceral memory is of perfectly blue, cloudless, empty skies and the accompanying silence of grounded aircraft-- stunning and sublime in it was in its poignancy. Eric in Toronto ____________________________________________________________ Free 20 MB Bannerless Domain Hosting, 1000 MB Data Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and more. Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 09:39:23 -0800 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Groningen/Peel And once you get your tongue around that try " 's-Hertogenbosch" like I had to at a train station once. I also heard once that Frisian is the closest foreign tongue to the english language. Can anyone verify that? Eric In Toronto - ---------- Original Message ---------------------------------- "Jan J Noorda": >Groningen? > >First g like a spanish J in b.e. Jose and the second g like an english one... ____________________________________________________________ Free 20 MB Bannerless Domain Hosting, 1000 MB Data Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and more. Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:57:42 +0100 From: "Mileta Okiljevic" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V7 #15 > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 11:11:04 +0100 > From: Bart van Damme > Hey Mileta, good to have you back... > Bart > From: Ari Britt > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V7 #13 > Don't believe him Mileta,he tells that all the guys.........Ari > Ahoy there, Bart, I've lurking last two months and enjoyed very much digest list, instead of reading newspaper IdealCopy list is my choice... Ermm, Ari.. Bart and myself has a very nice correspodention and i still keep folder with his works in my PC... and i really , really like Pale Saints, in fact The Comfort Of Madness is one of my top 5 4AD releases... in fact, i was always sure that PS was inspired with Fiction Tales from Modern Eon..and Sigur Ros have some PS segments in their music.. not to touch prog/kraut topic.. if anyone will listen carefully, whole crescendos in GY!BE opus are hommage to Florian Fricke and can be find on Popol Vuh records, also with Tangerine Dream ( on last GYBE and ASMZ ones...) it is not unusual that, then bands who count on post-rock have a songs with titles like Popol Vuh (Tarantel ) FYI i owned once Selling England By The Pound.. interesting thing that few of my fave albums was instrumental ones like Cul De Sac - The Death Of The Sun ( saw them in one evening with their own material and with Damo Suzuki was fantastic), Mogwai-HMFHP, Four Tet - Rounds (summer soundtrack) Bernd Flesichmann- Welcome Tourist ( winter soundtrack) and ASMZ and Set Fire To the Flames... now back to lurking.. thanx to all who mailed me off list through years.. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 18:52:38 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Groningen/Peel > First g like a spanish J in b.e. Jose and the second g like an english one > > An other pronounciation for Groningen > is Grunn ( with the G like a spanish J in Jose) > or Grinns ( this is frisian with a english g and the i like a kind > af english a) It's just that most English/Americans would pronounce the Spanish G as an H which makes Jose sound as Hoe-say instead of the sturdy Spanish original. > Perhaps Bart can give us a rating out of 10 of Peel's pronounciation? Hmmm, six minus... He would make a great Frisian though! Bart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:00:37 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: A-Ba-Ni-Bi > >>Alright, Mark, we know you were too cool to be into progrock in the > mid-seventies.<< No, not at all. Too young, too poor and too much into pop music. >> No doubt you liked Bowie, Beefheart, Velvet Underground and all the bands who the > best punks claimed as influences. << I'd been a huge Bowie fan since seeing Starman on TOTP. Ziggy Stardust was the first album I bought, at the age of 13. But my 1975 listening was basically chart pop, and at the time I was very much into soul artists such as George McCrae, and even Barry White. I'd been aware of the VU following Walk on the Wild Side (Sweet Jane was reissued at that time, as was Waiting for the man as variousl labels tried to cash in) but didn't really investigate more fully until after punk. >>But was the idea that Yes, ELP, Genesis &Camel and their ilk were overblown and > meaningless, actually the received wisdom back then ? Or was that just a > piece of post-77 revisionism ?<< Pre-77, Prog was highly fashionable for young grammar school lads to be into. But it sounded like shit to me at the time. And very little has changed my opinion subsequently, certainly with regard to the first three bands you name. Certainly after 77 John Peel stopped playing prog stuff and the NME started taking the piss. Overblown excessive prog was seen as the spawn of satan in punk circles. I found it quite reassuring that I wasn't alone in disliking it. >> It seems to me that there's a new breed of young listener emerging now who view prog > as an equally 'important' movement. In years to come, it could be the > pro-punk critics who look like uncultured philistines......?<< Of course within every movement there is decent stuff and shite. Punk had its fair share of shite (Lurkers, Vibrators etc) and quickly became discredited by the 'punk's not dead' cartoon punks (GBH, Exploited etc). Likewise within prog, Pink Floyd's early 70s albums stand up today where ELP's don't. There have always been plenty of people who'll big up King Crimson, VdGG, even Yes. But to me there will always be a risible quality of prog. I don't like showy, complex musicianship for its own sake, and I find much of the prog canon soulless and pretentious. And "nu-proggers" like Muse sound as dismal as the originals to me. > >>So, you're not a fan of Izhar Cohen and the AlphaBeta then ? - I'll bet > you were watching the '78 contest avidly, rooting for the Norwegian 'nul > points' entry ?<< Actually that was one of the better winners. Was that the Norwegian bloke with the red glasses and the spiky hair? Genius. >>> I'd have voted for "Sixteen Again", "Public Image" and "Outdoor Miner". > (not).<< I guess the Nul Points Noggie was as close as we got to a punk Eurovision entry. I vaguely remember some new-wavey band entering Song For Europe but failing to gain the nod... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 13:05:05 -0600 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing The Shoegazing era had short-lived highpoints. But there were quite a few of the bands that I enjoyed. True, too many seemed like they were MBV bandwagon jumpers, but there was also that sense that once again, guitar-led rock bands were in creative ascendancy. The late 80's UK music scene seemed either led by C86'ers or "industrial" type bands. Being a bit of a psychedelisist myself, I remember thinking that a lot of the creativity seemed to be in the house/trance/sample and dub scenes. Even overtly psyche-oriented bands like The Shamen were doing dance tracks. PTV went unashamedly rave. The Orb's early records were tremendous. So it was with a great deal of enthusiasm that guitar-oriented pysche rock started making a comeback in the very late 80's with bands like MBV, Spacemen 3 and Loop. Maybe it was the ecstacy, but that's where it seemed (Telescopes notwithstanding) that the likes of Ride, Chapterhouse, Pale Saints, early Lush, the Charlottes, the Boo Radleys were wont to move. MBV moved tremendously themselves toward that drowsy hazy amniotic cloud of dreamland with beats. I always thought that the true successors to MBV's evolution were SeeFeel. But things did peter out after a bit and we got baggy (Stone Roses, Mondays, Primal Scream - former c86ers themselves, Paris Angels, etc) and "Intelligent Dance Music" care of the likes of the Warp label, and of course BritPop and the always entertaining Blur vs Oasis mutual slagoffs. btw - my label's prize release - Certain General - An Introduction to War just got a really good review at Splendidzine. Here's a link for those interested: http://www.splendidezine.com/review.html?reviewid=107157469866822 http://www.sourmashusa.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2004 9:21 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing > > >>Of the Boo Radleys output I really like Giant Steps and Wake Up! -<< > > I'd agree that was their good period. The next one was trying to hard to be a > rock album. > > > >>Don't think anyone's mentioned Ride yet - the doyens of the era. << > > Certainly the shoegazers most likely to be a hit band - though they never > quite managed it. > > >>God, > those early eps and the first album were good, and they delivered > > live<< > > Only saw them once, at Subterrania supported by Galaxie 500. Very good gig - > some of it was broadcast on Snub. > > > >>(as an aside I remember me and my friends edging past some young girls > > at one Ride gig to get down the front and one of the girls saying 'God, > > there's a lot of old people here tonight' - and this was 1991! I take > > succour from the fact that she probably hasn't seen a gig in years while > > I'm going to see The Shins next week).<< > > What day is that? Might be up for that. > > >>> Mind you I never latched on to MBV (I'm with Miles on this one) - > > although I keep meaning to dig out Loveless just to check, after the > > ongoing praise here.<< > > It's a really exceptional album and it maps out a future that has never been > pursued. Still gets better each time I play it.. > > > > >>The second Ride album bucked the trend, however, and was bollocks.<< > > Didn't mind Going Blank Again - less shoegazey, more pop. And I'll probably > find no supporters here but I really enjoyed Carnival of Light, an album that > was universally panned. Tarantula is pants though - a tossed-off contract > filler. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 19:25:40 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Groningen/Peel > And once you get your tongue around that try " 's-Hertogenbosch" like I had to > at a train station once. Ouch! Or Scheveningen for that matter (where I was born - though of Frisian ancestors). 's Hertogenbosch (the Duke's woods) we shorten to Den Bosch... just like 's Gravenhage (the Count's hedge) is to Den Haag (The Hague). > I also heard once that Frisian is the closest foreign tongue to the english > language. Can anyone verify that? Quite right that (see very below). Though of course intertwined with Dutch, Frisian (Frysk) resembles and often sounds like (old) English. Bart For those etymologists who really want to know more: http://www.ezresult.com/article/Frisian_(language) Frisian (varyingly Frysk, Frasch, "Fresk", or "Friisk") is a language spoken by a small ethnic group living in the northwestern part of Europe. In origin, the Frisian language is Germanic, the ancient Frisian community figuring prominantly in North European history. They were especially noted as traders and raiders during viking times. Frisian consists of several dialects, which are very often mutually unintelligible. At their most basic, there are 3 dialectal divisions, West Frisian 'Frysk', Saterland Frisian 'Seeltersk', and North Frisian. The North Frisian language is however, further segmented into several additional strongly unique speech forms. The northern dialects include Mainland dialects, Island Dialects, and the Heligoland dialect, Heligoland or 'Halund' also an island. There is such a strong difference between the island and mainland forms of the North Frisian language that it has been speculated that the mainland and insular areas may have been originally populated by two separate waves of ancient Frisian colonizers, these migrations occuring in entirely different eras. Frisian is distinct from East Frisian Low Saxon. Most Frisian speakers live in the Netherlands, primarily in the province of Friesland (Fryslbn) where their number is about 440,000. In Germany, there are about 2,000 speakers of Frisian in the Saterland region of Lower Saxony, the Saterland's marshy fringe areas having long protected Frisian speech there from pressure by the surrounding Low German and High German languages. In the Nordfriesland (Northern Frisia) region of the German province of Schleswig-Holstein, there are 10,000 Frisian speakers. While many of these Frisians live on the mainland, most are found on the islands, notably Sylt, Fvhr, Amrum and Heligoland. The local corresponding Frisian dialects are still in use. Frisian is highly similar to Old English, and is linguistically classified as the closest existing language to English." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:01:53 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] more cage news! > While I didn't "listen to" the broadcast of 4'33" I have to say that the idea > resonates with other > experiences in my life. I don't think that the piece is intyended "to knock > you for six" as someone > mentioned as the piece isn't about the piece itself. Like Barnett Newman's > Yellow Edge it at once > acknowledges the frame but also resists the frame-- which might, on one level, > explain some of the nervous tension in the audience. And just like Barnett Newman Cage's piece seems to evoke massive opposition from people who don't "get it" (or: Sun-readers as Newsnight Review's Mark Lawson called them). In the 80's in the Amsterdam Stedelijk Museum Newman's "Who's afraid of Red Yellow & Blue" was attacked by a man with a blade. Several years later the same man would attack Cathedra, another of Newman's masterpieces held in the same museum. Obviously the feeling of "not getting the joke" or being secluded can provoke some powerfull reactions with people. Thank heavens there wasn't some uzi carrying lunatic at the Cage concert. > 4'33" for me resonates with 9-11. My experience of the event in the days > following were, errily not > unlike the Cage piece. In September 2001 my company was installing a rooftop > garden in downtown > Toronto. When you are up high, you experience more of the happenings in the > sky than what is going > on storeys below. In the days after 9-11 the most visceral memory is of > perfectly blue, cloudless, > empty skies and the accompanying silence of grounded aircraft-- stunning and > sublime in it was in its poignancy. Great poetic imagery Eric! Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 10:34:21 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) >I'm still considering the British Sea Power show at Echo Lounge on March >17.....and, by way of email update this morning, I just found out that >Broken Social Scene is playing Echo Lounge on March 23 via that very update i learned that bsp's opener is kaito, whom i like a lot, so i guess i'm now seriously considering back-to-back drives to/from atlanta for that gig &, the night before, the mekons. *sigh* i'm getting too old for that sort of thing. as for richard thompson, i've seen him twice. very good live. dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:43:18 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) > >>back-to-back drives to/from atlanta for that gig &, the night before, the > mekons. *sigh* i'm getting too old for that sort of thing.<< Motel 6 and a day of secondhand record shopping. You know it makes sense ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:27:54 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) >>MWP also did a solo tour in > 2002 (i think), and he > played Smith's Olde Bar to about 15 people or so. > he is, apparently, kind > of a pretentious asshole, but a damned fine > guitarist..... > > Forwarded this to my Church loving mate (he's also a big fan of Bolan and, gulp, Wishbone Ash fan so there's some things we agree on and some we DEFINITELY don't!). Anyway, he said... Thanks for note. I found Marty not pretentious at all. He kindly signed one of his solo cd's for me at Alexanders when he was with All about Eve a couple of years back as he was getting ready to go on stage. I hope to seem them this year if they play in the north.. So there you go ; ) Keith np beach boys - holland ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:29:48 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Prog v punk > Jet Black born 1948 Are you sure about that, Mark? I thought he was older than that (and no, I'm not taking the piss). I certainly though he was considerably older than Greenfield. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 00:49:29 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing > Don't think anyone's mentioned Ride yet - the doyens of the era. God, > those early eps and the first album were good What about Bleach. I thought their early ep's were really good. They were good live, too. > I'm going to see The Shins next week). Do you not think they're a bit, you know, wet ; ) > Mind you I never latched on to MBV (I'm with Miles on this one) - > although I keep meaning to dig out Loveless just to check, after the > ongoing praise here. Oh man. You gotta re-appraise that. It was YEARS ahead of it's time and it was only in the late 90's when I played it that I actually thought it wasn't ahead any more and - for once - thought it sounded maybe slightly dated. But I played it a week or so ago and it is still truly, truly, fab. We're talking top 20 all time here!! I mean that. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:01:01 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Prog v punk > >>Are you sure about that, Mark? I thought he was older than that (and no, > I'm > not taking the piss). I certainly though he was considerably older than > Greenfield.<< It was just a brief Google to demonstrate that the Stranglers were older than Genesis. I've checked and the site I got that off is wrong - by 5 years. Jet was 60 last year - born 26/8/43. His real name is Brian Duffy. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 01:52:46 -0000 From: "Tim" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: BSP coming to ATL (and so is The Church) I just found out that > Broken Social Scene is playing Echo Lounge on March 23. Go and see them, fantastic 5 guitar assault with everyone throwing lots of shapes and taking turns to sing lead vocals....good value! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:15:25 -0000 From: "Tim" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing > Mind you I never latched on to MBV (I'm with Miles on this one) - > although I keep meaning to dig out Loveless just to check, after the > ongoing praise here. The reason its such a great album is that its basically got really gorgeous, melodic songs, great vocal interplay between Kevin and Belinda, nice sequenced keyboard runs and sampled flutes, but all buried under an avalanche of noise which has been painstakingly layered, all bent and distorted. Its an excercise in very carefully executed sound destruction. Utter fucking genius, and still not really been matched. And like all "classic" LPs its surrounded by myths and legends....like that fact the Kevin worked his way through 17 Sound Engineers (true), like Kev wouldn't tell Belinda what the lyrics were so she had to try and guess. Like the song titles (Soon, What You Want, To Here Knows When) are little digs at Alan McGee who was slowly having a coke-fuelled nervous breakdown waiting for the bastard to finish the LP. Play it again Keith and Miles...and play it loud. If you still don't like it...well....... its one of those Classic LPs that people either love, or can't see what all the fuss is about. It falls into the same category as 'Don't Stand Me Down' etc. n.p. Pale Saints - 'In Ribbons' Still sounds good to me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 02:31:08 -0000 From: "Tim" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Shoegazing I always thought that the true > successors to MBV's evolution were SeeFeel. They got closer than most, and for a while they were brilliant live. They played as a four piece with live drummer, and had this bass player who was amazing and used to fling his bass around all over the place. Alas they signed to Warp and instead of being a brilliant hybrid of Ambient Guitars and Electronic Dub they just drifted towards pure, minimalist electronica which wasn't nearly as interesting. Still, anyone on this list who is into Silo and some of the more ambient things on Swim should be ashamed of themselves if they haven't got 'Quique' and 'Pure Impure' on their CD Racks. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #16 ******************************