From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V7 #7 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, January 9 2004 Volume 07 : Number 007 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] In Vivo CD single ["Clements, Bruno - BUP" ] Re: [idealcopy] Yes? No!!! [dj =?ISO-8859-1?Q?fak=E9?= ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! ["Keith Astbury" ] RE: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! [Adrian Cooke ] Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Yes? No!!! ["Ian B" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! ["Stephen Graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! [Ari Britt ] [idealcopy] Mark wrote [Ari Britt ] RE: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! ["Keith Knight" Subject: [idealcopy] In Vivo CD single Someone kindly pointed out that all Mute-issued Wire releases are still available (and at very reasonable online prices). One that doesn't seem to be available is the 3-inch CD In Vivo single... I snapped mine up on ebay for about 80p - perhaps I have a rarity! Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:28:19 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Faves of 2003 Has anyone got a CD of Captain Beefheart's Lick My Decals Off, Baby for sale/swop? I have an old cassette but I can't stand them anymore. Apparently it was available (on Rhino?) for some years, probably just in the US. Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 12:26:04 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! I'm a Yes fan, although not as much of one as I was in the past. I got into Yes when I was in college; some friends and I actually had second row seats to one of the Yes shows on their tour in support of the album, Talk. The seats were right in front of Chris Squire...cool. At several points during the show when Jon Anderson was singing, he would seem to sing something into the microphone, but no sound came out. My friends and I decided that, during these moments, Anderson was singing such high notes that humans couldn't hear them, but dogs could...and that all of the dogs in the area were probably running away in terror. During college, these two friends and I went through a phase where we decided to see as many of the "classic rock" bands before they died. We saw: Yes, The Who, The Rolling Stones, Van Halen, Jeff Beck, Santana, Emerson, Lake & Palmer, Jimmy Page & Robert Plant, Eric Clapton, Rush, KISS, The Allman Brothers, Jimmy Buffett, Pink Floyd, and a few others that elude my memory. Given a choice right now, I'd much rather see Wire, Frank Black, Mission Of Burma, Bob Mould, or the like at a small venue than see the above bands. I did learn a lot, though, about how some artists have developed an amazing stage presence over the years (Robert Plant and Pete Townsend are great examples) and how they can work a crowd effortlessly. In particular, I'm glad that I had the opportunity to see The Who back in the late 90's before Entwistle was gone. So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Jeff Beck, of course. Jason Now Playing: Good Friday Experiment - Spread Out Inside _________________________________________________________________ Make your home warm and cozy this winter with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ------------------------------ Date: 09 Jan 2004 07:18:41 -0600 From: dj =?ISO-8859-1?Q?fak=E9?= Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yes? No!!! "fight the punk rock wars?" did you get a purple heart? or a saftey pin? some war... punk should be happy there was prog otherwise there would be no punk c > To bleedin' many. I didn't fight the punk rock wars to listen to you lot > blathering on about prog rock..... > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:06:41 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! > "krautrockers".....arguably , even folks like Roxy Music and David Bowie continued the thread... > > how's that Keith? C+ ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:07:50 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Yes? No!!! > > Exactly..you'll be onto Rick Wakeman releases &the guitar solos of Steve > > Howe next.... > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > well...Rick Wakeman DID play on Bowie's Hunky Dory album... And Get It On... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:13:31 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! > In particular, I'm > glad that I had the opportunity to see The Who back in the late 90's before > Entwistle was gone. I saw The Who back in 1981. I enjoyed it but it wasn't all that great, to be honest (though admittedly Moon had long since gone). And my mate and I exchanged glances when they played My Generation. Even then it seemed a bit sad them singing that particular song. > So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Jeff Beck, of > course. Robert Quine! Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:08:03 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! On Fri, Jan 09, 2004 at 03:13:31PM -0000, Keith Astbury wrote: > > So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Jeff Beck, > of > > course. > > Robert Quine! Arthur Lee. - - A - -- email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ DJ, CUR1350 - http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:27:03 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Yes? No!!! In a message dated 1/9/04 7:29:44 AM Central Standard Time, djfake@yahoo.com writes: > "fight the punk rock wars?" did you get a purple heart? or a saftey pin? it's an old inside joke...nevermind RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:48:41 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! > >So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Sterling Morrison. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:48:40 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] LIST ADMIN!!!!! I have twice attempted to post a lengthy and erudite post on the subject of Prog, yet it has not appeared. Subsequent one-liners have though. Has smoe.org added special anti-prog filters? Or are we reduced to soundbites these days? Or what? List Curmudgeon (official) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 23:52:10 +0800 From: "Tim ****" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Yes? No!!! >well...Rick Wakeman DID play on Bowie's Hunky Dory album... And Get It On... ....& Norman Wisdom - A World of Wisdom 1991!! - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Keith Astbury" To: , CC: Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Yes? No!!! Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:07:50 -0000 > > Exactly..you'll be onto Rick Wakeman releases &the guitar solos of Steve > > Howe next.... > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > well...Rick Wakeman DID play on Bowie's Hunky Dory album... And Get It On... _________________________________________________________________ E-mail just got a whole lot better. New ninemsn Premium. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:13:41 -0000 From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" Subject: RE: [Maybe Spam] Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! >I'm glad that I had the opportunity to see The Who back in the late 90's before Entwistle was gone. I saw The Who back in 1981. I enjoyed it but it wasn't all that great, to be honest (though admittedly Moon had long since gone). And my mate and I exchanged glances when they played My Generation. Even then it seemed a bit sad them singing that particular song. Keith - ---Agreed - I saw them on that tour in Cornwall. They only got a real reaction for the classic stuff. A band just becomes a jukebox act at that point. Saw Stranglers and Clash greatest-hits tours which were similarly disappointing, after some great earlier gigs. Wire, however, have never disappointed in this way - it's their policy! Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:58:20 -0000 From: Alistair Tear Subject: FW: [idealcopy] [OT] Yes? No!!! Jeez, he shall be known as Rick 'interesting' Wakeman henceforth that's 'my' soundbite Mr B... ;-) A - - From: Tim **** well...Rick Wakeman DID play on Bowie's Hunky Dory album... And Get It On... ....& Norman Wisdom - A World of Wisdom 1991!! - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Keith Astbury" To: , CC: Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Yes? No!!! Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:07:50 -0000 > > Exactly..you'll be onto Rick Wakeman releases &the guitar solos of Steve > > Howe next.... > > > > Tim > > > > > > > > well...Rick Wakeman DID play on Bowie's Hunky Dory album... And Get It On... _________________________________________________________________ E-mail just got a whole lot better. New ninemsn Premium. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp ************************************************************************* The contents of the e-mail and any transmitted files are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. Transport for London Street Management hereby excludes any warranty and any liability as to the quality or accuracy of the contents of this e-mail and any attached transmitted files. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that you have received this e-mail in error and that any use, dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please notify postmaster@Streetmanagement.org.uk. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:59:16 -0000 From: Adrian Cooke Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Syd Barrett - -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] Sent: 09 January 2004 15:49 To: keith.astbury10@virgin.net; inspectorjason@hotmail.com; idealcopy@smoe.org; idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! > >So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Sterling Morrison. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:59:16 -0000 From: Adrian Cooke Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Syd Barrett - -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] Sent: 09 January 2004 15:49 To: keith.astbury10@virgin.net; inspectorjason@hotmail.com; idealcopy@smoe.org; idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! > >So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Sterling Morrison. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:08:24 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog Try again. A slightly truncated version of that whcich has been filtered out by the smoe idiot filter.... Robert saidb& >>Pink Floyd...Yes...Genesis...etc. were the UK's version of "krautrock"...<< and Andrew said... >> I'm not sure whether MBV, Sigur Ros, Mogwai, gybe!, and the rest of that stuff isn't > prog by the back door...<< and Keith said... > Yes pre-date Krautrock (first album 1969)! > I think there's a significant distinction between progressive and Prog. Prog evolved as a specifically UK phenomenon when psychedelic rockers like Pink Floyd and Tomorrow started taking different drugs, reading Tolkien and listening to folk. And spending their royalties on synthesizers. There was a clear progression from beat combo to psych rocker to Progger. The injection of post-Sgt Pepper "English whimsy" didn't help either. Musicianship became of increasing importance, hence the emergence of virtuoso players (often ex-sessionmen like Rick Wakemen or Jimmy Page) as part of the 70s 'rock royalty'. This unhappy cocktail led to music of increasing complexity (13/29 time, duodecahedronic scales and such like) accompanying cosmic, smack-addled old bollocks about goblins and elves. (is your blood pressure rising yet, progfans? Good.) Meanwhile in Germany (and Krautrock definitely pre-dates prog, or at least exists in a parallel universe - Can were making records as early as 1968) the mindset was different. Be thankful to Can for defining the landscape as effectively as they did - being proper musicians they took a "less is more" approach to creating an indigenous German sound, taking cues from Stockhausen and eschewing the blues/jazz tradition - indeed they were taking the same touchstones from American rock as the punk movement did a decase later - Velvets & Stooges specifically. Of course there's a fair amount of hippy bollcoks in krautrock too, even in Can. Karoli's endless soloing on Monster Movie is irritating, and the replacement of Mooney with Damo was a massive improvement. And a lot of "krautrock" (Amon Duul, Tangerine Dream etc) IS very much in sync with BritProg. But not in Dusseldorf, where Neu! and Kraftwerk (whose histories are very much intertwined) were creating stuff a million miles away from BritProg. Likewise, name me a BritProg band as downright messy as Faust? Through just about all German 70s music (and into the NDW early 80s) there's a pretty stroing sense of wanting to infuse the music with a 'Germanness' that is specifically NOT American/Blues-based. (this is a very Wire state of mind too - to create "European" music, and extended to much of the post-punk environment). As for so-called 'nu-prog' of Radiohead, Sigur, GYBE etc, there's certainly a desire within these bands to be "progressive" (though for me both Sigur and Godspeed seem to be one good idea extended over several albums). And the rehabilitation of the less noodlesome end of Prog (eg Dark side of the moon) makes Radiohead's job easier. Are they Prog with a capital P? Well not to these ears. No more so than, say, 154 or Secondhand Daylight (certainly albums that represented "progression" from onechewfreefaw punk). They're progressive for sure, but avoid the aforementioned stylistic unacceptableness of Prog. Of course the acid test for all these bands is unknown. Has anybody got close enough to them to check if they smell of goats? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:01:30 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog In a message dated 09/01/2004 18:13:09 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > But not in Dusseldorf, where Neu! and Kraftwerk (whose histories are very > much intertwined) were creating stuff a million miles away from BritProg. > Likewise, name me a BritProg band as downright messy as Faust? Through just > about all > German 70s music (and into the NDW early 80s) there's a pretty stroing sense > of wanting to infuse the music with a 'Germanness' that is specifically NOT > American/Blues-based. (this is a very Wire state of mind too - to create > "European" music, and extended to much of the post-punk environment). > > So would you say Gong were somewhere in between. I would class their music as European.Hippyish certainly in the early seventies but never Prog or as messy as Faust. Great musicians too. Hillage & Pip Pyle (Now there was a great drummer). Chris NP Elbow - Fugitive Motel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:37 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog > >>So would you say Gong were somewhere in between. I would class their > music as European.Hippyish certainly in the early seventies but never Prog or as > messy as Faust. > Great musicians too. Hillage &Pip Pyle (Now there was a great drummer).<< > > Archetypal hippie band really - has more charm than the bombastic prog of > ELP, Yes etc but its high elf context (and certain concomitant goat aroma) > means it remains on the banned list. The other band that probably qualifies as > BritKrautRock (tm) would probably be Hawkwind on account of high > messy/kosmische kontent. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:13:57 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog In a message dated 09/01/2004 19:08:37 GMT Standard Time, Mark Bursa writes: > Archetypal hippie band really - has more charm than the bombastic prog of > ELP, Yes etc but its high elf context (and certain concomitant goat aroma) > means it remains on the banned list. The other band that probably qualifies as > BritKrautRock (tm) would probably be Hawkwind on account of high > messy/kosmische kontent. > Drugs Mark, have an awful lot to do with it. And a bad diet.That accounts for the Goat smell.You can imagine the smell of them if you look at the back cover of Camembert Electrique. sold for 50p in WH Smiths in the early seventies. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 19:50:33 -0000 From: "Ian B" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Yes? No!!! Awwww Keith! Ian B (About to take his dad to the Leeds Spurs game as his Christmas present) - ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Astbury > God only knows what he's gonna be like when his team are in administration > and in the Nationwide ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:57:13 -0600 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! If you can't see a slight basic stylistic difference between say Neu! and Can and Kraftwerk (arguably the big 3 of Krautrock) and Genesis, Yes, and Floyd (arguably the big 3 of Britprog) there's not much point in going on w/ this. sg http://www.sourmashusa.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; ; Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 3:45 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! > In a message dated 1/8/04 3:08:03 PM Central Standard Time, > keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > > > > Robert - interested in what you mean by the quote below. Musically > > > there's not much similarity from my pov, and Yes pre-date Krautrock > > > (first album 1969) so please expand! > > > > Pink Floyd...Yes...Genesis...etc. were the UK's version of "krautrock" which > in itself was the melding of the art and experimentalism of Stockhausen, Cage, > Henry etc. fused with sensibilities and energy of UK/US rock-n-roll sprinkled > with the emerging technology of synths and keyboards....Floyd, Genesis, and > Yes (and others) all took cues in direction from the > "krautrockers".....arguably , even folks like Roxy Music and David Bowie continued the thread... > > how's that Keith? > > RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:02:31 -0600 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [Maybe Spam] Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! When the Who played in that tribute to 911 set a couple of years back, they did a four-song set and three of them were off "Who's Next". I think that indicates what the band thinks of it's last 20 years of heritage. btw - I saw them at the Madison Square Garden in the late 70s w/ Moon. They were great, even in that big bowl. My ears rang for a week. sg http://www.sourmashusa.com - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clements, Bruno - BUP" To: Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 9:13 AM Subject: RE: [Maybe Spam] Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! > >I'm glad that I had the opportunity to see The Who back in the late 90's > before Entwistle was gone. > > I saw The Who back in 1981. I enjoyed it but it wasn't all that great, to be > honest (though admittedly Moon had long since gone). And my mate and I > exchanged glances when they played My Generation. Even then it seemed a bit > sad them singing that particular song. > > Keith > > ---Agreed - I saw them on that tour in Cornwall. They only got a real > reaction for the classic stuff. A band just becomes a jukebox act at that > point. > > Saw Stranglers and Clash greatest-hits tours which were similarly > disappointing, after some great earlier gigs. Wire, however, have never > disappointed in this way - it's their policy! > > Bruno > > > > ********************************************************************** > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify > the system manager. > > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by > MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. > > www.mimesweeper.com > ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 15:15:38 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! In a message dated 1/9/04 2:04:49 PM Central Standard Time, sjgraziano@hotmail.com writes: > If you can't see a slight basic stylistic difference between say Neu! and > Can and Kraftwerk (arguably the big 3 of Krautrock) and Genesis, Yes, and > Floyd (arguably the big 3 of Britprog) there's not much point in going on w/ > this. > sg duh....of course i can hear the differences...but all of those bands are still cut from the same cloth: that of trying to do something that was considered more "progressive" with rock music......some failed and some succeded... RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 13:59:25 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] RE:The Who I saw the Who at the Odeon theatre,Hammersmith around '76/'76,Ringo Starr sat in the row in front right in front of me,I handed him an unburt joint,'ta very much' he said and PUT IT IN HIS POCKET! Ari "Clements, Bruno - BUP" wrote:>I'm glad that I had the opportunity to see The Who back in the late 90's before Entwistle was gone. I saw The Who back in 1981. I enjoyed it but it wasn't all that great, to be honest (though admittedly Moon had long since gone). And my mate and I exchanged glances when they played My Generation. Even then it seemed a bit sad them singing that particular song. Keith - ---Agreed - I saw them on that tour in Cornwall. They only got a real reaction for the classic stuff. A band just becomes a jukebox act at that point. Saw Stranglers and Clash greatest-hits tours which were similarly disappointing, after some great earlier gigs. Wire, however, have never disappointed in this way - it's their policy! Bruno ********************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses. www.mimesweeper.com ********************************************************************** Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:01:57 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! Richard Thompson and Frank Zappa......A MarkBursa@aol.com wrote:> >So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Sterling Morrison. Mark Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:01:57 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! Richard Thompson and Frank Zappa......A MarkBursa@aol.com wrote:> >So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Sterling Morrison. Mark Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 14:08:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Mark wrote As for so-called 'nu-prog' of Radiohead, Sigur, GYBE etc, there's certainly a desire within these bands to be "progressive" (though for me both Sigur and Godspeed seem to be one good idea extended over several albums). And the rehabilitation of the less noodlesome end of Prog (eg Dark side of the moon) makes Radiohead's job easier. Are they Prog with a capital P? Can't se e how Radiohead could be grouped with any of these other bands.................A Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 22:12:21 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! Mm, I dunno Robert - I see what you're getting at with the comment that both were trying to expand the boundaries of rock music but I think it's a stretch to suggest too much of an influence. Even if Krautrock was being born in the late 60s I doubt that many people in the UK were aware of it then. Admittedly I only really started buying albums and being more interested in rock in the wider sense around '71, but Krautrock was very difficult to find. When I wanted some in 71/72 I had to get it mail-order from the fledgling Virgin empire (which existed solely as an advert in the NME and a room above a shoe-shop on Oxford St in London at that stage). By 71 both Yes and Floyd had established their sound and I think they did this independently of what was happening in Germany. I don't recall any interviews with these bands at the time which name-checked Krautrock. Floyd were really the trend-setters in the UK arena I think - - stuff like Interstellar Overdrive and Careful With That Axe Eugene established that lengthy sound-world which Yes, Genesis, VdGG and others went on to inhabit. There was certainly a classical influence - Wakeman was classically trained and Genesis and VdGG had good middle-class upbringings - but I suspect the touchstone was more Stavinsky than Stockhausen. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: RLynn9@aol.com [mailto:RLynn9@aol.com] Sent: 08 January 2004 21:46 To: keith.astbury10@virgin.net; steeleknight@lineone.net; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! In a message dated 1/8/04 3:08:03 PM Central Standard Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > > Robert - interested in what you mean by the quote below. Musically > > there's not much similarity from my pov, and Yes pre-date Krautrock > > (first album 1969) so please expand! > Pink Floyd...Yes...Genesis...etc. were the UK's version of "krautrock" which in itself was the melding of the art and experimentalism of Stockhausen, Cage, Henry etc. fused with sensibilities and energy of UK/US rock-n-roll sprinkled with the emerging technology of synths and keyboards....Floyd, Genesis, and Yes (and others) all took cues in direction from the "krautrockers".....arguably , even folks like Roxy Music and David Bowie continued the thread... - ---------------- duh....of course i can hear the differences...but all of those bands are still cut from the same cloth: that of trying to do something that was considered more "progressive" with rock music......some failed and some succeded... RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:20:23 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! Tough call. I'm pretty fond of Tony Iommi, myself (I consider early Sabbath to be classic rock) and you can never go wrong with Pete Townshend, in my humble opinion. Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Ari Britt Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:02 PM To: MarkBursa@aol.com; keith.astbury10@virgin.net; inspectorjason@hotmail.com; idealcopy@smoe.org; idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! Richard Thompson and Frank Zappa......A MarkBursa@aol.com wrote:> >So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Sterling Morrison. Mark Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 17:51:02 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! In a message dated 09/01/2004 22:15:06 GMT Standard Time, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: > There was certainly a classical influence - Wakeman > was classically trained and Genesis and VdGG had good middle-class > upbringings - but I suspect the touchstone was more Stavinsky than > Stockhausen. > > If i remember correctly Yes used to open their show with The Firebird Suite by Stravinsky as intro music. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 18:43:05 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Another bloody top 100!! In a message dated 1/8/04 4:02:21 PM Central Standard Time, dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: > i must say i was delighted last night to > discover that their soundtrack for dario argento's suspiria is the 3rd disc > in the special dvd edition of that movie i chanced across last night for > something like $12 in the used racks at the local going-out-of-business > coconuts .. speaking of going-out-of-business...isn't it alarming how many record stores are going under...independent as well as chain-stores.... very sad....the internet may well be the death of record shops.... in my opinion nothing can take the place of spending hours alone searching for old vinyl and cds.... Robert (whose last score at a going out of business sale included: Josef K. "Only Fun In Town/Sorry For Laughing" cd....Paul Shutze "Nine Songs From The Garden of Welcome Lies cd...Einsturzende Neubauten "Halber Mensch"...and The Irresistible Force "It's Tommorrow Already" cd..... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 01:19:28 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT: A brief history of prog Mark Bursa wrote: I think there's a significant distinction between progressive and Prog. Prog evolved as a specifically UK phenomenon when psychedelic rockers like Pink Floyd and Tomorrow started taking different drugs, reading Tolkien and listening to folk. And spending their royalties on synthesizers. There was a clear progression from beat combo to psych rocker to Progger. The injection of post-Sgt Pepper "English whimsy" didn't help either. - --------------------- But that is an artificial distinction which has been introduced in the past few years by the pejorative 'prog'. This wasn't a phrase around at the time - it was all just 'progressive'. - ------------------------------------- Musicianship became of increasing importance, hence the emergence of virtuoso players (often ex-sessionmen like Rick Wakemen or Jimmy Page) as part of the 70s 'rock royalty'. This unhappy cocktail led to music of increasing complexity (13/29 time, duodecahedronic scales and such like) accompanying cosmic, smack-addled old bollocks about goblins and elves. (is your blood pressure rising yet, progfans? Good.) - ------------------------- Well, it would be if this was accurate. I don't think I've got any progressive albums with references to goblins and elves (although Bo Hansson's music inspired by Lord of the Rings perhaps refers to them by implication although not lyrically as it's instrumental). Flying Teapots yes, but I think we've discounted Gong haven't we? And I for one like a bit of musical complexity from time to time as long as it's in the service of the music and not the ego of the player - so for example I like Yes (who were virtuoso but played as a unit) but hate Clapton and all those other guitar heroes ( I omit Hendrix and Jimmy Page from any criticism at this and all future junctures). - ----------------------------------- Meanwhile in Germany (and Krautrock definitely pre-dates prog, or at least exists in a parallel universe - Can were making records as early as 1968) the mindset was different. Be thankful to Can for defining the landscape as effectively as they did - being proper musicians they took a "less is more" approach to creating an indigenous German sound, taking cues from Stockhausen and eschewing the blues/jazz tradition - indeed they were taking the same touchstones from American rock as the punk movement did a decase later - Velvets & Stooges specifically. Of course there's a fair amount of hippy bollcoks in krautrock too, even in Can. Karoli's endless soloing on Monster Movie is irritating, and the replacement of Mooney with Damo was a massive improvement. And a lot of "krautrock" (Amon Duul, Tangerine Dream etc) IS very much in sync with BritProg. - ------------------------ But T Dream are primarily instrumental whereas all British bands had vocalists (at least I can't think of a band of that era that didn't) - the lyrical aspect is very important to progressive rock, unlike Krautrock where - if used - the lyrics are less, um, poetic (Duul may be an exception here). I see Can's British equivalent as someone like Henry Cow - experimentalists schooled in the avant-garde and ploughing a furrow out there on the edge. In fact the early Virgin artists - Robert Wyatt, Hatfield and the North, Slapp Happy, Egg - are much more akin to Krautrock in my view - they certainly floated by boat in similar ways at the time. - ---------------------------------- But not in Dusseldorf, where Neu! and Kraftwerk (whose histories are very much intertwined) were creating stuff a million miles away from BritProg. Likewise, name me a BritProg band as downright messy as Faust? - --------------------------- Well, there has hardly ever been a band as messy as Faust were back then. But I bet that more people who bought The Faust Tapes were Yes fans than Steely Dan fans. Time to mention VdGG perhaps who were so challenging in their song structures, musical line-up, volume and delivery that most progressive rock fans couldn't cope with them - am equivalent of Faust within their field. - ------------------------------- Through just about all German 70s music (and into the NDW early 80s) there's a pretty stroing sense of wanting to infuse the music with a 'Germanness' that is specifically NOT American/Blues-based. (this is a very Wire state of mind too - to create "European" music, and extended to much of the post-punk environment). - -------------------- Yes - that's a zeitgeist thing that was present in German film at the time too - Wenders especially wrestled with how Germany could be different from the US ("The Americans have colonized our sub-conscious"). I recall Ian MacDonald calling Bowie' Station to Station' a European album - and this was prior to Bowie's move to Berlin. As for so-called 'nu-prog' of Radiohead, Sigur, GYBE etc, there's certainly a desire within these bands to be "progressive" (though for me both Sigur and Godspeed seem to be one good idea extended over several albums). And the rehabilitation of the less noodlesome end of Prog (eg Dark side of the moon) makes Radiohead's job easier. Are they Prog with a capital P? Well not to these ears. No more so than, say, 154 or Secondhand Daylight (certainly albums that represented "progression" from onechewfreefaw punk). They're progressive for sure, but avoid the aforementioned stylistic unacceptableness of Prog. - ---------------------- Some of the names I've thrown in in passing here show how fuzzy the edges are. Was Bowie ever progressive rock? Hendrix? Zeppelin? Were Jethro Tull? Some have blues influence, some folk - is there a distinction to be made? Hawkwind (mentioned in your subsequent post) were somehow always just outside at the time, probably because they weren't instrumental virtuosos. Is it a class thing? As for the bands now I'd have had no hesitation on seeing Sigur Ros as progressive in '72 (probably why I love them so much). GYBE would have been lumped in with the Virgin lot. Radiohead would probably have got in under the radar, for Paranoid Android if nothing else. Another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:18:14 +0800 From: "Tim ****" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! How about Mick Ronson with Charles Hayward on drums, bass Mick Karn (So long as he does that slinky sidewinder dancey thing), Gilbert on Rhythm & Ac Marias on vocals.. what song though....? As an aside.....Wakeman played on Sabbeth's 'Sabbeth Bloody Sabbeth' Tim Now becoming very concerned at my Wakeman knowledge! np - Crescent - By The Roads & Fields - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "Jack Alberson" To: Subject: RE: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 16:20:23 -0600 Tough call. I'm pretty fond of Tony Iommi, myself (I consider early Sabbath to be classic rock) and you can never go wrong with Pete Townshend, in my humble opinion. Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Ari Britt Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:02 PM To: MarkBursa@aol.com; keith.astbury10@virgin.net; inspectorjason@hotmail.com; idealcopy@smoe.org; idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] RE: Yes? No!!! Richard Thompson and Frank Zappa......A MarkBursa@aol.com wrote:> >So, for my money, who is the best "classic rock" guitarist? Sterling Morrison. Mark Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Premium transforms your e-mail with colours, photos and animated text. Click here http://ninemsn.com.au/premium/landing.asp ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V7 #7 *****************************