From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #372 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, December 12 2003 Volume 06 : Number 372 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] image and information etc. [fernando ] Re: [idealcopy] The Cult of Graeme Mk. II [Ari Britt ] [idealcopy] Tech TV: FCC Powell, Brian Eno [Ed Special ] RE: [idealcopy] Volume [Ari Britt ] RE: [idealcopy] Smitten/The Darkness ["Jack Alberson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Tech TV: FCC Powell, Brian Eno [Ed Special ] Re: [idealcopy] no excuse [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Volume [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 12:37:11 -0800 (PST) From: fernando Subject: RE: [idealcopy] image and information etc. I am with you when it comes to context. Being there for the releases or the discovery of New Order inside a sleeve, when the band is little known, has an experience that cannot be duplicated today. "in the know" can also be that you have certain level of aesthetics for graphic arts or sleeve design, and you make it a part of your "hunting" experience. cheers, - -fernando PS I had the same experience of the 33 vs. 45 when it came to the Swans... since Gira's voice works at both speeds ;) - --- Eric Klaver wrote: > Hello Eric, > > Sorry that a lack of clarity is questioned as a matter of my age... funny. > Oh > yes, the internet... where age is always brought up. > ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' > > thanks for that fernando. My comment on age is that often people forget the > context into whcich these things originally appeared or they weren't around > for it at all. I still have to disagree with the 'in the know' thing as > well. One didn't have to be in the know to suspect something different was > going on there. > > This reminds me of Alan Wilder's recoil project and his 3+4 release. I know > someone who bought it at the same time as myself and we had been talking > about it for some time with each other. Well, I go around to his place one > day and he puts it on the turntable. Turns out that all this time he had > been listening to it on 45rpm instead of 33-1/3rpm as there were no notes as > to the speed of the record anywhere. It took some convincing to get him > believe that that 33-1/3 was the correct speed. > > Wouldn't happen in this age now would it. 8-) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:49:46 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: [idealcopy] Volume In terms of loudness, which editions of Pink Flag, Chairs Missing and 154 sound best, in your humble opinions?? Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:08:46 -0800 (PST) From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Volume For me... once I listened to the Japanese editions, I was hooked. I have all the editions that have come out, since they first came on CD... so the original EMI, US-Reckless, and the UK remasters... and the Japanese with the extra tracks. I cannot tell much of a diff between the UK and Japanese remasters, actually. Just the extra tracks are convenient. - -fernando - --- Jack Alberson wrote: > In terms of loudness, which editions of Pink Flag, Chairs Missing and > 154 sound best, in your humble opinions?? > > > > Jack L. Alberson > > Property Administrator > > CB Richard Ellis > > First Tennessee Building > > 165 Madison Avenue > > Memphis, TN 38103 > > (901) 521-1748 __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:13:06 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] The Cult of Graeme Mk. II I was never personally 'attacked' by Graeme,though he did once make a disparaging remark about Shriekback once when I posted I like their music,I gently rebuffed him and we became e-friends,in all subsequent correspondance with him he was,and still is,polite and friendly,I liked his style and miss his presence,we all have SOMETHING about us that others would abhore I'm sure,as I once posted on the Shriekback site 'I AM BUT WORDS ON YOUR SCREEN' I cannot slap you on the back,fart in your face,spill milk on your carpet or buy you a Guinness at your local pub,if people find ME offensive they don't HAVE to open my mail,they can delete and move on.It's a shame really that those who found him offensive didn't do just that,and those that were mailed off site didn't simply put a 'block' on his email address.Ah well,like I said,we're all different,thank the lord harry for that.Ari RLynn9@aol.com wrote:In a message dated 12/11/03 12:59:04 PM Central Standard Time, wireadmin@mindspring.com writes: > Somehow I'm reminded of the wives and girlfriends who always go back to their > abusive spouses... actually, i think the people who wanted his return the most, are the ones who were never attacked on and offlist by Graeme.... just a thought RL New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:19:27 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Volume I was listening to a prog. on NPR a couple of daze ago and a sound engineer stated that the record company that he worked for insisted that the volume be loud on all releases,he said that in doing so customers were missing 'subtleties' of the music,and that he never heard anyone complain that a c.d was 'too quiet',ever heard of the volume control?Paul? what's your take.Ari Jack Alberson wrote:In terms of loudness, which editions of Pink Flag, Chairs Missing and 154 sound best, in your humble opinions?? Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:23:39 -0500 From: Ed Special Subject: [idealcopy] Tech TV: FCC Powell, Brian Eno The Screen Savers Tech TV Dec 11 7:00pm Dec 12 12am 60 Mins. Episode #1233. FCC Chairman Michael Powell; rock legend Brian Eno. Original Airdate: December 11, 2003. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 13:27:52 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V6 #370 dj faki wrote: > Sorry, but I don't think I'm alone in believing this list is much poorer > for r Rowland's absence. And no, I'm not condoning his last outburst, which > did overstep the line. You never know who is lurking in the the digital ether... I WISH.........Ari. New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:25:57 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Volume So perhaps it's a matter of 'mastering' that I'm referring to. It's a bit aggravating, when making a cd mix, to have one song be so quiet and then a newer song nearly blow you out of your seat. Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 - -----Original Message----- From: Ari Britt [mailto:threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 3:19 PM To: Jack Alberson; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Volume I was listening to a prog. on NPR a couple of daze ago and a sound engineer stated that the record company that he worked for insisted that the volume be loud on all releases,he said that in doing so customers were missing 'subtleties' of the music,and that he never heard anyone complain that a c.d was 'too quiet',ever heard of the volume control?Paul? what's your take.Ari Jack Alberson wrote: In terms of loudness, which editions of Pink Flag, Chairs Missing and 154 sound best, in your humble opinions?? Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 _____ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:44:02 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V6 #370 In a message dated 12/11/03 3:38:22 PM Central Standard Time, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > Sorry, but I don't think I'm alone in believing this list is much poorer > > for r Rowland's absence. And no, I'm not condoning his last outburst, > which > > did overstep the line. > > You never know who is lurking in the the digital ether... > > I WISH.........Ari. sounds like somebody is smitten....there there Ari...maybe Graeme will slide down your chimney....or maybe he'll jump out of a cake for Valentine's Day.. or are those holidays a bit too "corporate"? RL p.s. - i read an interview with Jaz Coleman and he made it clear that he LOVES America...he just hates Bush....as matter of fact Jaz lived in Sedona, Arizona because of it being the "new age" capital of the USA.. whatever Jaz.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 22:05:00 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: rocket from the atlanta tombs? >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:14:59 -0600 >From: "dan bailey" >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] rocket from the atlanta tombs? > > >at any rate -- waht is the next show you are coming up here for? and who >is the other ATL listie? > >that would be mr jason rogers ... offhand i can't recall what suburb he >lives in (or was looking to move to). > I live in Smyrna...which is basically northwest metro Atlanta area right outside the perimeter. I haven't found a house to buy yet, but, then again, I've been busy lately with work, etc. and haven't had time to search like I ought to. Jason Now Playing: Ladytron - Softcore Jukebox _________________________________________________________________ Shop online for kids toys by age group, price range, and toy category at MSN Shopping. No waiting for a clerk to help you! http://shopping.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:15:07 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Smitten? Me? You never know who is lurking in the the digital ether... > > I WISH.........Ari. sounds like somebody is smitten....there there Ari...maybe Graeme will slide down your chimney....or maybe he'll jump out of a cake for Valentine's Day.. or are those holidays a bit too "corporate"? RL I simply miss his raw honesty and biting comments when writting about music he passionately loved,you must admit whenever he posted anything EVERYONE made a response,the list was more exciting and invigorating is all.Ari New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 14:20:15 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Volume Jack Alberson wrote: So perhaps it's a matter of 'mastering' that I'm referring to. It's a bit aggravating, when making a cd mix, to have one song be so quiet and then a newer song nearly blow you out of your seat. Jack L. Alberson You're right on there Jack,which is why I eventually purchased a stand alone Hi Fi recorder,I can make compilations analogue to digital and adjust the volume accordingly.......Ari New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:20:19 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Smitten/The Darkness Like when I went off on the White Stripes? Ari, if that's all you want I can do that for days. ;) The Darkness, for example. Utter crap, irony or no. Their garbage makes Ronnie James Dio look like a legitimate artiste! Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 I simply miss his raw honesty and biting comments when writting about music he passionately loved,you must admit whenever he posted anything EVERYONE made a response,the list was more exciting and invigorating is all.Ari New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 15:46:15 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Volume > a sound engineer stated that the record company that he worked for > insisted that the volume be loud on all releases > he said that in doing so customers were missing 'subtleties' > of the music,and that he never heard anyone complain that a > c.d was 'too quiet',ever heard of the volume control? > Paul? what's your take? Glad you asked, Ari! (^_^) I have the original Wire Restless Retro US releases and the re-mastered EMI UK releases. The UK editions are quite a bit louder - BUT there are some subtle mastering errors on them. One track on 154 in particular sounds like it's overloaded. There's a distortion there that isn't on the Restless Retro edition. (I wrote about this once - I can't remember the name of the track off-hand, but it's in the SMOE dot org archives somewhere.(^_^)) I don't get the loud CD thing myself. I also think I understand what the engineer is talking about. See - the way digital audio works, you can't get any louder than all bits on - which is 0 dB on the digital audio recording meters. Any incoming voltage louder than 0 dB at the A/D converters is reproduced by the D/A converters as 0 dB. This is distortion, since the output voltage basically flatlines. If you record so that the peak volume hits 0 dB on your digital recorder, that puts the average signal level for pop music at around -12 dB. Yet, when I examine the signal level of modern compact discs, they are pegged at 0 dB. How can they do this? By using modern A/D converters that "round" the volume off so that overloads are prevented. In the pre-digital era, this was known as "peak limiting", which is a form of audio dynamic compression. This is what I think the engineer is talking about - this peak limiting/compression removes dynamic range from the original master tapes. Shellac - and by extension Steve Albini - is one of the few bands who actually still master their CDs the old fashioned "loudest peak of the recording happens at 0 dB with no peak limiting" way. You'll notice that their CDs seem quieter - but since CD has a 110 dB signal to noise ratio, you're probably not going to hear a lot more surface noise that a CD that's mastered the modern way. You've just got to use that volume knob thingy that Ari mentioned. (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:04:15 -0500 From: Ed Special Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Tech TV: FCC Powell, Brian Eno Eno interview postponed . . . . On Thursday, December 11, 2003, at 04:23 PM, Ed Special wrote: > The Screen Savers > > Tech TV > > Dec 11 7:00pm > Dec 12 12am > 60 Mins. > > Episode #1233. > FCC Chairman Michael Powell; rock legend Brian Eno. > > Original Airdate: December 11, 2003. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:32:28 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Volume In a message dated 12/11/03 4:22:57 PM Central Standard Time, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > > You're right on there Jack,which is why I eventually purchased a stand alone > Hi Fi recorder,I can make compilations analogue to digital and adjust the > volume accordingly.......Ari > Bingo Ari...that's what i did as well.. RL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:34:44 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Smitten? Me? In a message dated 12/11/03 4:25:18 PM Central Standard Time, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > I simply miss his raw honesty and biting comments when writting about music > he passionately loved,you must admit whenever he posted anything EVERYONE > made a response,the list was more exciting and invigorating is all.Ari > well if it's any consolation..i just made a biting remark (about you being smitten) and you responded... Every Thing Counts in Small Amounts RL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 19:35:30 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Smitten/The Darkness In a message dated 12/11/03 4:36:06 PM Central Standard Time, jalberson@firsttennesseebuilding.com writes: > The Darkness, for example. Utter crap, irony or no. Their garbage > makes Ronnie James Dio look like a legitimate artiste! > > um...he isn't? Rainbow in the Dark baby! RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:42:07 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe > << Yeah, that is pretty extreme. Does that mean you pick up all the bargains without sleeves? >> > > i have never, in my life, seen sleeveless records or CDs for sale. i do have a ton of sleeveless vinyl that i inherited from my Uncle (apparently he didn't like sleeves either -- perhaps it's genetic?) > > where have you seen such things? You see them quite often in UK shops. Somewhere along the line someone has lost the sleeve, so they flog them off cheapish. Woolworths often seem to be the culprits! Keith NP Julian Cope - Rome Wasn't Burnt In A Day ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2003 16:41:04 -0800 (PST) From: fernando Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Volume I remember that there was (no longer around, I think) mode in car stereos where they would do dynamic range compression, which is a cool idea for the car, since there is so much ambient noise, even with the windows down. If what they are doing these days is to do dyn-range compression, that sucks. Still, there are some quiet CDs out there, like the last release from London Records of New Order's Low-life. It would seem a silly practice, especially with the remastering to 24 bits. I would suspect that the Steely Dan re-issues (done a bunch of times over), may be 0 dB mastered as you mention. cheers, - -fernando - --- Paul Pietromonaco wrote: > > I have the original Wire Restless Retro US releases and the re-mastered EMI > UK releases. The UK editions are quite a bit louder - BUT there are some > subtle mastering errors on them. One track on 154 in particular sounds like > it's overloaded. There's a distortion there that isn't on the Restless > Retro edition. (I wrote about this once - I can't remember the name of the > track off-hand, but it's in the SMOE dot org archives somewhere.(^_^)) > > I don't get the loud CD thing myself. I also think I understand what the > engineer is talking about. See - the way digital audio works, you can't get > any louder than all bits on - which is 0 dB on the digital audio recording > meters. Any incoming voltage louder than 0 dB at the A/D converters is > reproduced by the D/A converters as 0 dB. This is distortion, since the > output voltage basically flatlines. > > If you record so that the peak volume hits 0 dB on your digital recorder, > that puts the average signal level for pop music at around -12 dB. Yet, > when I examine the signal level of modern compact discs, they are pegged at > 0 dB. How can they do this? By using modern A/D converters that "round" > the volume off so that overloads are prevented. In the pre-digital era, > this was known as "peak limiting", which is a form of audio dynamic > compression. This is what I think the engineer is talking about - this peak > limiting/compression removes dynamic range from the original master tapes. > > Shellac - and by extension Steve Albini - is one of the few bands who > actually still master their CDs the old fashioned "loudest peak of the > recording happens at 0 dB with no peak limiting" way. You'll notice that > their CDs seem quieter - but since CD has a 110 dB signal to noise ratio, > you're probably not going to hear a lot more surface noise that a CD that's > mastered the modern way. You've just got to use that volume knob thingy > that Ari mentioned. (^_^) > > Cheers, > Paul __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 00:57:28 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] no excuse In a message dated 12/11/03 5:37:16 AM, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > >And yes, I think like many here that this list is poorer for his absence. aw, c'mon. i haven't been gone that long :o) coming back from about a month of phone and dsl problems. seems to finally be straightened out though. apologies to anyone on the list who may have emailed me in november. i deleted almost everything as there's been just too much to go through. hopefully i didn't miss anything real important. best to all this holiday season. i will unsub next week cuz i'm taking a 2 week vacation and don't want to come back to 1000 emails again. if i don't get a chance to post again this week, happy new year, see y'all in 04! cheers, paul (another the paul) c.d. www.mp3.com/winteracademy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2003 01:01:28 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Volume In a message dated 12/11/03 5:22:57 PM, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: >So perhaps it's a matter of 'mastering' that I'm referring to. It's a >bit aggravating, when making a cd mix, to have one song be so quiet and >then a newer song nearly blow you out of your seat. >Jack L. Alberson > >You're right on there Jack,which is why I eventually purchased a stand >alone Hi Fi recorder,I can make compilations analogue to digital and adjust >the volume accordingly.......Ari i do the same with itunes on my mac. cool feature. i just wish the segue feature was more versatile. - -paul c.d. www.mp3.com/winteracademy ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V6 #372 *******************************