From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #367 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, December 9 2003 Volume 06 : Number 367 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] no excuse [Ed Special ] [idealcopy] [OT] Another the chappie wins Turner Prize [Bart van Damme ] RE: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe ["Jack Alb] Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe [Andrew Wa] Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe [P J Kane ] RE: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe ["Jack Alb] Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe [Andrew Wa] Re: [idealcopy] OT White Tripe/Strokes ["John Roberts" ] Re: [idealcopy] rocket from the atlanta tombs? [Miles Goosens Subject: [idealcopy] no excuse . . . well I dunno . . . Mister Rogers' Neighborhood WFUM Dec 11 06:00am Episode #1564. A comet arrives in Make-Believe. WFUM Dec 17 06:00am / 12:00pm Episode #1723. Potty training; making toilets; Lady Elaine is missing. Ed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 14:27:12 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] Another the chappie wins Turner Prize So, anyone has any thoughts about Grayson Perry (and not the Chapmans) winning the Turner Prize? Last Sunday on dutch tv there was an interview with Grayson, or better, his female alter ego Claire... lovely nutter! Like the angle of his work (below & link)! Bart http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3299335.stm ============= Profile: Turner winner Grayson Perry Grayson Perry, a potter who has a female alter-ego called Claire, has won this year's Turner Prize. In his purple party frock at Sunday's Turner ceremony, Grayson Perry seemed to revel in the fact that he was not the stereotypical cool, fashion-conscious modern artist. Normally, critics of the prize argue that their young children could have taken the winner's place and made an award-winning artwork. On Sunday, Perry looked willing to take them up on the offer, as long as he could swap places with the children too. In much of Perry's work, there is a sense of a childhood that he lost and has forever struggled to regain. Perry pokes fun at fashion in Boring Cool People They feature photographs of his family, images of masculine stereotypes he never lived up to and memories of rural decay. Born in Chelmsford, Essex, in 1960, his parents split up when he was five and his stepfather, the milkman, was a bully. So Perry's teddy, Alan Measles, became "my surrogate father". Meanwhile, the seeds of his transvestitism were sown when he was six or seven, he has said, and his interest in pottery was aroused shortly after. He was made to wear a tight rubber smock during his first pottery lesson - making an ashtray for his mother - and "became very excited at the feeling". He studied art in Braintree and Portsmouth and moved to London in the early 1980s, falling in with a group called the Neo-Naturists. They took part in performance and film works, but decided to go on an evening course to rekindle his interest in ceramics. The first plate he made there was called Kinky Sex and depicted a crude crucifixion. The course of his career had been set. Perry also displays some of his dresses He slowly began to make a name for himself and, by 1994, had become notorious enough that the pottery establishment was "baying for his blood", according to one report at the time. Another theme of his work has been poking fun at "boring cool people" in the art world and the banality of society as a whole. A vase called Posh Bastard's House ridiculed the concept of cool, while Poor In Spirit depicted people who had become rich but miserable. He has said his work has always used a "guerrilla tactic" to marry a biting message with a normally sedate craft. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:34:06 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] no excuse > Mister Rogers' Neighborhood > > WFUM Dec 11 06:00am > > Episode #1564. > A comet arrives in Make-Believe. ASTEROID!!!!! Mark ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 08:21:52 -0800 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] no excuse >WFUM Dec 17 06:00am / 12:00pm > >Episode #1723. >Potty training; making toilets; Lady Elaine is missing. > > > >Ed ......................................... ass TER(oi)D !!! Eric in Toronto (always looking for the potty humor) ____________________________________________________________ Free 20 MB Bannerless Domain Hosting, 1000 MB Data Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and more. Get It Now At Doteasy.com http://www.doteasy.com/et/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:22:52 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe Prepare for a massive diatribe and apologies in advance. I feel like qualifying my deep-seated hatred of the White Stripes by saying it's more that I sharply dislike the media's peddling of the duo as some genius musical zeitgeist. Jack White is no genius--there have been thousands to come before and appropriate blues musics (everyone from Elvis Presley and Robert Plant to, well, 75% of all the music to have been made since the 1950's at least). As a guitarist, he's no more talented than fellow blues plagiarist Jimmy Page (and depending on who you talk to, THAT is suspect). His songwriting isn't bad but nor is it the best thing since sliced bread. If it's their ethics that make them so damn amazing, why isn't everybody talking about Wire, a group who have a considerably more admirable code of ethics (and one that, for the mainstream, means our swimmers will never quite have the hype surrounding them that a group as palatable as the White Stripes have)? Acts like the White Stripes, The Strokes, The Hives, etc. have good influences and they're varying degrees of entertaining. I just wish the mainstream (and music media) could bring/would have brought more attention to the acts that led the way instead of writing it off as obscurist academia. Merely my two cents, Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of dan bailey Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 1:05 AM To: ideal copy Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe >Lovely! I'll gladly get in line if it means there's more than one >person hating their overrated rubbish! > >(I risk all credibility in saying I like the Strokes) as do i -- their first lp, anyway. the new one hasn't penetrated my calloused eardrums yet. neither has the white stripes' ... whom i also like. so it goes. dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:58:19 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 10:22:52AM -0600, Jack Alberson wrote: > If it's their ethics that make them so damn amazing, why isn't everybody > talking about Wire, a group who have a considerably more admirable code > of ethics (and one that, for the mainstream, means our swimmers will > never quite have the hype surrounding them that a group as palatable as > the White Stripes have)? > The White Stripes are producing very good blues-inflected guitar pop music, with a striking visual image, and (here's the crucial part) at *exactly* the right time in terms of fashion. The most obvious comparison would be, as far as I'm concerned, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion and fellow-travellers: however, they plain didn't have the image that you *must* have to get over with the media, and they were too early. (See also the 80s synthpop revival underway: Fischerspooner may well be pathetic, but they also made the crucial mistake of being there *too early*. If "Emerge" was being released now, I think it'd be a reasonable-size hit. It's all a matter of hitting the zeitgeist.) Wire, being a) total cultural magpies (and hence hitting the wave early, like they did with the rock revivial this time out; they moved away from reviving their own 70s sound just as the world caught up) and b) too clever by half, always seem to be a couple of years ahead of the game: this probably makes them so popular with us lot (being slightly too obsessive about all this stuff and mostly compulsive neophiles), but doesn't exactly outfit you for mainstream success. > Acts like the White Stripes, The Strokes, The Hives, etc. have good > influences and they're varying degrees of entertaining. I just wish the > mainstream (and music media) could bring/would have brought more > attention to the acts that led the way instead of writing it off as > obscurist academia. They're not being played in clubs, on the radio, on MTV; not pictured in the fashion press; people aren't having their weekend soundtracked by them in the clubs. Sure, you can decry the rights and wrongs of this, but until that changes, an interest in this bands *is* pretty academic from a sociological perspective - and pop music is as much about the social aspect *as* the music, culturally. What's more, that won't change whilst there's more money to be made hyping the new band. - - Andrew - -- email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ DJ, CUR1350 - http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:14:02 GMT From: P J Kane Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe << The White Stripes are producing very good blues-inflected guitar pop music, with a striking visual image, and (here's the crucial part) at *exactly* the right time in terms of fashion. >> okay, this is something that i have to confess i have NEVER understood, not in my entire life. why should i care what a band LOOKS LIKE? it is their music i am interested in, not their bodies. for example, aside from one or two of my favorite bands, i could stand in line with some musician whose work i adore and not recognize them..... why DO people care about how bands look? has anyone else on this list noticed that it is usually Brits who go one about this? is it a cultural difference -- that is, we Americans who like Wire may have made conscious effor to reject that "image is everything" crap crammed down our throats by TV, whereas to Brits it is either a. so ubiquitous that everyone accepts it b. percieved differently over there ??? any ideas team? PJK at a loss for this comment Andrew. no offense meant really -- i am not trying to pick on Mr. Walkingshaw personally. please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:21:24 -0600 From: "Jack Alberson" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe But PJ my dear, if you don't have the *right* eyewear, you're NOTHING! Tongue firmly in cheek. ;) Jack L. Alberson Property Administrator CB Richard Ellis First Tennessee Building 165 Madison Avenue Memphis, TN 38103 (901) 521-1748 - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of P J Kane Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:14 AM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe << The White Stripes are producing very good blues-inflected guitar pop music, with a striking visual image, and (here's the crucial part) at *exactly* the right time in terms of fashion. >> okay, this is something that i have to confess i have NEVER understood, not in my entire life. why should i care what a band LOOKS LIKE? it is their music i am interested in, not their bodies. for example, aside from one or two of my favorite bands, i could stand in line with some musician whose work i adore and not recognize them..... why DO people care about how bands look? has anyone else on this list noticed that it is usually Brits who go one about this? is it a cultural difference -- that is, we Americans who like Wire may have made conscious effor to reject that "image is everything" crap crammed down our throats by TV, whereas to Brits it is either a. so ubiquitous that everyone accepts it b. percieved differently over there ??? any ideas team? PJK at a loss for this comment Andrew. no offense meant really -- i am not trying to pick on Mr. Walkingshaw personally. please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:32:20 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 05:14:02PM +0000, P J Kane wrote: > okay, this is something that i have to confess i have NEVER > understood, not in my entire life. why should i care what a band > LOOKS LIKE? it is their music i am interested in, not their bodies. > for example, aside from one or two of my favorite bands, i could > stand in line with some musician whose work i adore and not > recognize them..... Yeah, but you're a music junkie. So am I. We're very rare. Most people who are buying records - and to be White Stripes big, that means a lot of the mainstreamish audience - go on what they see in the media: MTV, covers of magazines. Having a really striking image is a gift to these formats, and furthermore sticks in the memory. Also, like it or not, pop music is all *about* fashion. Punk's probably the textbook example; everyone knows the imagery because of how tribal it was, and there must have been a lot of people into it *because* of that sense of belonging. They're almost certainly not the people on this list, but this list's members are seriously overeducated (in musical terms, and on average) compared to the general record-buying public. > why DO people care about how bands look? has anyone else on this > list noticed that it is usually Brits who go one about this? is it > a cultural difference -- that is, we Americans who like Wire may > have made conscious effor to reject that "image is everything" crap > crammed down our throats by TV, whereas to Brits it is either a. so > ubiquitous that everyone accepts it b. percieved differently over > there ??? I *personally* don't care about a band's appearance - but ignoring it as a factor in some bands' success, or otherwise, is naive. I certainly don't accept that it affects the quality of their music. However, as an example, consider the Hives. They wouldn't be so successful without their monochrome clothing and Randy Fitzsimons gimmick, because of the airtime and column inches it's bought them - despite the fact that musically they're doing *nothing* that a lot of other bands haven't done at least equally well for the last twenty-five years. - - Andrew - -- home - email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ work - email: adw27@esc.cam.ac.uk http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ radio: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ (5pm Mon) http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:39:23 +0000 From: "John Roberts" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT White Tripe/Strokes Confession time: I actually saw the Strokes on Saturday night at the Ally Pally. Bought a couple of tickets as part of Kerry's Xmas pressies. I must confess that I was looking forward to seeing support act British Sea Power more than the Strokes but on the night the Strokes won out. BSP's set was oddly fragmented and didn't seem to fit together at all well. Not helped by being ignored by most of the audience. The Strokes just played their stuff as it is on the albums but a bit louder. They aren't anything stunningly original no, but a good pop band nonetheless. The only problem you can have with them is if you expect to be more than a pop band. Contentious aspect: Are they this generation's Ramones? Oh, and I find the White Stripes boring too. Cheers John http://www.surf.to/ambition >From: "dan bailey" >To: "ideal copy" >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 01:04:53 -0600 > > >Lovely! I'll gladly get in line if it means there's more than one > >person hating their overrated rubbish! > > > >(I risk all credibility in saying I like the Strokes) > >as do i -- their first lp, anyway. the new one hasn't penetrated my >calloused eardrums yet. neither has the white stripes' ... whom i also >like. >so it goes. > >dan > > > > > > >i'm sorry Jack...you'll have to get in line...i professed my hatred > >months > >and months and months ago..... > > > >throw the Vines and the Strokes in there as well... > > > >RL > >np - Throbbing Gristle - Heathen Earth _________________________________________________________________ Sign-up for a FREE BT Broadband connection today! http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:42:43 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe In a message dated 12/9/03 11:18:26 AM Central Standard Time, postlibyan@netzero.com writes: > okay, this is something that i have to confess i have NEVER understood, not > in my entire life. why should i care what a band LOOKS LIKE? agreed....i'm not a teen-aged girl or a teen-age boy needing wank material... as a matter of fact, a lot of the music i like is made by people who are less than beautiful to downright ugly and/or dress quite poorly....some of the stuff i like is "faceless techno bollocks" (a term that the UK press loved to use in the early 90's) ...but who cares?..... in my opinion, it seems that bands most conscious of their image put out crap music.....if you are really taking the time for your craft, you certainly don't have time to keep with fashion.... RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:47:29 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe In a message dated 12/9/03 11:02:01 AM Central Standard Time, andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk writes: > They're not being played in clubs, on the radio, on MTV; not pictured > in the fashion press; people aren't having their weekend soundtracked > by them in the clubs. THEY AREN'T?????? where do you live? i can't get away from the White Stripes/Hives/Strokes etc. etc. they are everywhere...MTV...the radio...in malls...t-shirts....car stereos.... makes me wanna barf.....and (just a hunch) i'm willing to bet that if you met any of the people from these bands, they'd be complete jerks who you wouldn't want to hang out with....i'd rather give my money to complete isolationists or social cripples who live in their mother's basement.... just my 2 cents worth because i am sick of contributing to the wealth of pricks.. RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:53:10 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 12:47:29PM -0500, RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/9/03 11:02:01 AM Central Standard Time, > andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk writes: > > > They're not being played in clubs, on the radio, on MTV; not pictured > > in the fashion press; people aren't having their weekend soundtracked > > by them in the clubs. > > > THEY AREN'T?????? where do you live? i can't get away from the White > Stripes/Hives/Strokes etc. etc. they are everywhere...MTV...the radio...in > malls...t-shirts....car stereos.... Um. That's what I *said*; they are, JSBX/Gallon Drunk/Royal Trux/whoever aren't, as indeed Wire aren't, or any of the 80s bands being ripped off shamelessly right now (heard Kylie's latest single, for instance? Probably best for you if you haven't, but I help out with the singles reviews for CUR1350. It's "educational".[1] - - A [1] apologies to Frank Black - -- home - email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ work - email: adw27@esc.cam.ac.uk http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ radio: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ (5pm Mon) http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 17:55:15 +0000 From: "John Roberts" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe Style and fashion and image have always played a part in popular music but things have got out of hand. If we can equate playing around with or appropriating images and styles as a postmodern trait Wire play around in a similar manner but manage to retain that edge. Very little else does. I too blame f*ckwit music journos. Instead of at least attempting to represent a critical stance today's muso journos are in a desperate situation regarding their relation to the music industry. They seem to be so frightened for their jobs that they are only capable of lauding praise on any old shite the record industry wants to throw at us. I bought a copy of the NME a year or so ago to find a double page interview with Shakira in it. (Intellectually stimulating stuff I can tell you.) According to last night's Frank Skinner show NME is now raving about Busted. (Non-UK listers Busted are a three piece boy band who play guitars and look/sound uncannily like Green Day without the zits.) And Busted have taken to wearing Anti-Pasti t-shirts in their videos. I once saw Anti-Pasti: they were on a four band bill with Chron Gen, The Exploited and Discharge. I don't what point I'm trying to make here but something's not quite right here. Cheers John http://www.surf.to/ambition >From: Andrew Walkingshaw >To: Ideal Copy List >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 16:58:19 +0000 > >On Tue, Dec 09, 2003 at 10:22:52AM -0600, Jack Alberson wrote: > > If it's their ethics that make them so damn amazing, why isn't everybody > > talking about Wire, a group who have a considerably more admirable code > > of ethics (and one that, for the mainstream, means our swimmers will > > never quite have the hype surrounding them that a group as palatable as > > the White Stripes have)? > > > >The White Stripes are producing very good blues-inflected guitar pop >music, with a striking visual image, and (here's the crucial part) at >*exactly* the right time in terms of fashion. The most obvious >comparison would be, as far as I'm concerned, Jon Spencer Blues >Explosion and fellow-travellers: however, they plain didn't have the >image that you *must* have to get over with the media, and they were >too early. > >(See also the 80s synthpop revival underway: Fischerspooner may well >be pathetic, but they also made the crucial mistake of being there >*too early*. If "Emerge" was being released now, I think it'd be a >reasonable-size hit. It's all a matter of hitting the zeitgeist.) > >Wire, being a) total cultural magpies (and hence hitting the wave >early, like they did with the rock revivial this time out; they moved >away from reviving their own 70s sound just as the world caught up) >and b) too clever by half, always seem to be a couple of years ahead >of the game: this probably makes them so popular with us lot (being >slightly too obsessive about all this stuff and mostly compulsive >neophiles), but doesn't exactly outfit you for mainstream success. > > > Acts like the White Stripes, The Strokes, The Hives, etc. have good > > influences and they're varying degrees of entertaining. I just wish the > > mainstream (and music media) could bring/would have brought more > > attention to the acts that led the way instead of writing it off as > > obscurist academia. > >They're not being played in clubs, on the radio, on MTV; not pictured >in the fashion press; people aren't having their weekend soundtracked >by them in the clubs. Sure, you can decry the rights and wrongs of >this, but until that changes, an interest in this bands *is* pretty >academic from a sociological perspective - and pop music is as much >about the social aspect *as* the music, culturally. > >What's more, that won't change whilst there's more money to be made >hyping the new band. > >- Andrew > >-- >email: andrew@lexical.org.uk >http://www.lexical.org.uk/ >Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge >http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ >DJ, CUR1350 - http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ >http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ _________________________________________________________________ Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 17:58:01 GMT From: P J Kane Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe << But PJ my dear, if you don't have the *right* eyewear, you're NOTHING! Tongue firmly in cheek. ;) >> damn. well that must be my problem -- generic glasses! thanks Mr. Alberson.... :) PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 18:08:12 GMT From: P J Kane Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe << Yeah, but you're a music junkie. >> LIES! i can quite anytime i want to. really! :) << So am I. We're very rare. Most people who are buying records - and to be White Stripes big, that means a lot of the mainstreamish audience - go on what they see in the media: MTV, covers of magazines. Having a really striking image is a gift to these formats, and furthermore sticks in the memory. >> if you say so. of the teenagers that i know, they buy what their friends tell them to buy. i suppose that somewhere some kid watched MTV or read the magazine, but most people are acting on second or third hand information. the alternate explanation of my observation is that all of my currently teenaged relatives are dorks! (possible i guess....) << Also, like it or not, pop music is all *about* fashion. >> i don't like it. in fact, i would say "pop culture is about fashion". pop music is just one part of pop culture. in fact, it's the only part i care about. so leave the fashion stuff out of it. << Punk's probably the textbook example; everyone knows the imagery because of how tribal it was, and there must have been a lot of people into it *because* of that sense of belonging. >> right. same as with any pop cultural trend. << They're almost certainly not the people on this list, but this list's members are seriously overeducated (in musical terms, and on average) compared to the general record-buying public. >> well i dunno about that. i mean, don't we have a Killing Joke fan on this list? (just kidding, just kidding.... although i really don't like KJ....) << I *personally* don't care about a band's appearance - but ignoring it as a factor in some bands' success, or otherwise, is naive. >> but no one was talking about success. people were ragging Stripes/Strokes for being boring and not "moving" them. << However, as an example, consider the Hives. >> never heard them. one of the reviewers at my site thought their album was generic, and that is as far as i know... << They wouldn't be so successful without their monochrome clothing and Randy Fitzsimons gimmick, >> okay, well, i dunno who "Randy Fitzsimmons" is! but i guess i will have to accept your statement, even though i have no idea what these people look like, and have no idea where kids would even learn that. (because, let's face it, when is the last time you saw something other than hip-hop on MTV?) but there is a larger issue here: should we work to tell our teenaged relatives to NOT try and buy a "style" beacuse some rapper on MTV says to buy that image? do we have a moral obligation to tell people to try and just listen to the music and not be obsessed with how someone looks? don't we have any conviction that we are right dammit and those other folks are wrong? PJK honestly not sure of my own conviction, mind you.... please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 12:40:25 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe well, my dear robert, welcome to your idea of paradise -- montgomery, alabama. i do remember hearing one strokes song (last nite, i think) on the radio a couple of years ago, but come to think of it that might've been while i was still living in lr. i have heard the stripes' 7 nation army a few times, but i'm pretty sure it was on cable tv, rather than being generated locally. dan >In a message dated 12/9/03 11:02:01 AM Central Standard Time, >andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk writes: > >> They're not being played in clubs, on the radio, on MTV; not pictured >> in the fashion press; people aren't having their weekend soundtracked >> by them in the clubs. > > >THEY AREN'T?????? where do you live? i can't get away from the White >Stripes/Hives/Strokes etc. etc. they are everywhere...MTV...the radio...in >malls...t-shirts....car stereos.... > >makes me wanna barf.....and (just a hunch) i'm willing to bet that if you met >any of the people from these bands, they'd be complete jerks who you wouldn't >want to hang out with....i'd rather give my money to complete isolationists >or social cripples who live in their mother's basement.... > >just my 2 cents worth because i am sick of contributing to the wealth of >pricks.. >RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:52:50 +0000 From: "John Roberts" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe Interesting point leading to some sweeping generalizations no less. Hope that what follows is taken with a pinch of salt. So here we go: Off the top of my head I'd say its a distinction based on where you think music's authenticity is located i.e. it's down to variations in the aesthetics of authenticity. The US has a tradition of rock journalism which predates the UK's. This has engendered a clearer distinction between rock and pop in the US which isn't so in the UK. For the US the authentic is found solely in rock which is viewed in much the same way as canonical poetry i.e. as a complex work of art beyond the realm of commercial, formulaic pop. Here we're not so keen on rock because we remember Yes and ELP. Our rock journalism simply didn't do this until a bit later. And seems to be heading the same way now. IOW the UK has always been more pop infatuated than rock infatuated: note how many of us UK listers love pop. And look at how pop our rock is. However, there is always the return of the repressed. The more someone tells me that they are emphatically not interested in style it seems to me that they are. Another interesting pointer: the persistance of post-war British subcultures. The US seem to have discovered subcultures much later and for different reasons. It seems as though it's relatively recently that the US has had mods, skins, goths, punks in the subcultural sense. Subcultures over here are largely theorised in terms of a symbolic reenactment of rapidly erroding class identities. (Ooops I mentioned the C word! 8-) ) US subcultures seem to me to be rather middle class and are not a reaction to the erosion of the traditional working class community as witnessed here. (Or at least that's the theory.) What can be said is that it seems as though in the UK there is the tendency to locate authenticity in maintaining a close link between a visual style and music as witnessed in subcultures. I got into Wire because they and I were punk. I daresay that's not eveybody's story but I bet there are a lot more Wire fans in the UK who did exactly that than there are in the US. Gotta dash though now. Only logged on to check my email and not had my tea yet! Cheers John http://www.surf.to/ambition >From: "Jack Alberson" >To: >Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe >Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 11:21:24 -0600 > >But PJ my dear, if you don't have the *right* eyewear, you're NOTHING! > >Tongue firmly in cheek. ;) > >Jack L. Alberson >Property Administrator >CB Richard Ellis >First Tennessee Building >165 Madison Avenue >Memphis, TN 38103 >(901) 521-1748 > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On >Behalf Of P J Kane >Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2003 11:14 AM >To: idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Rough Trade Top 100 albums of 2003/White Tripe > ><< The White Stripes are producing very good blues-inflected guitar pop >music, with a striking visual image, and (here's the crucial part) at >*exactly* the right time in terms of fashion. >> > >okay, this is something that i have to confess i have NEVER understood, >not in my entire life. why should i care what a band LOOKS LIKE? it is >their music i am interested in, not their bodies. for example, aside >from one or two of my favorite bands, i could stand in line with some >musician whose work i adore and not recognize them..... > >why DO people care about how bands look? > >has anyone else on this list noticed that it is usually Brits who go one >about this? is it a cultural difference -- that is, we Americans who >like Wire may have made conscious effor to reject that "image is >everything" crap crammed down our throats by TV, whereas to Brits it is >either >a. so ubiquitous that everyone accepts it >b. percieved differently over there >??? > >any ideas team? > >PJK >at a loss for this comment Andrew. no offense meant really -- i am not >trying to pick on Mr. Walkingshaw personally. > >please don't hate me because i can't type..... >--- >All the cool kids are doing it: >HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:06:07 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: [idealcopy] rocket from the atlanta tombs? been meaning to ask if any of the (2-person?) atlanta-area contingent plan to catch rocket from the tombs (reformation of the cleveland band that schismed into pere ubu & the dead boys back in the mid-'70s, complete with david thomas on vox & cheetah chrome on guitar, & richard lloyd of television filling in on the other guitar for the late peter laughner) tonight at the echo lounge. i'm hoping to shove off for those parts in an hour or 2. dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:18:57 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Annual Recommendations here's what i posted elsewhere a few days ago. i will note for the record that potentially significant entries in the still-awaiting-evaluating queue are the new ones by enon, missy elliott, country teasers, bubba sparxxx, death in vegas, killing joke, dandy warhols, cruxshadows, kmfdm, type o negative, junior senior, bolides, creatures, white stripes, strokes, outkast, dead prez, yeah yeah yeahs, rapture, ima robot, radiohead, black-eyed peas, neptunes, kills, basement jaxx, adult, black rebel motorcycle club, buzzcocks, fear cult, erase errata, mars volta, british sea power, blur, ryan adams, paul burch, derailers, cat power, richard x, kings of leon, nappy roots, pink, go-betweens, belle & sebastian, super furry animals & swingin' utters, among others ... my list is still coalescing (a fancy way of saying i've still got probably 35 albums issued this year to either listen to for the first time or to go back & get a clearer immpression from earlier, insufficient listenings), but at the moment the contenders are, in no particular order -- trailer bride -- hope is a thing with feathers exploding hearts -- guitar romantic kaito -- band red goldfrapp -- black cherry cracker -- countrysides drive-by truckers -- decoration day fm knives -- useless & modern vanishing -- songs for psychotic children d4 -- 6twenty longwave -- the strangest things stellastarr -- s/t (crap, the longwave/stellastarr gigs would've been neat ... damn me yet again for no longer being in little rock, where that tour stopped) raveonettes -- chain gang of love amy rigby -- till the wheels fall off black box recorder -- passionia the fall -- country on the click soviettes -- s/t dan, unsure of how to handle wire's send, insofar as most of it was already available on the 2 read & burn eps >It's probably that time of year again. What albums have grabbed your >attention this year? Time to fill out those Christmas lists... > >I'll get us going; apart from the 10 I mentioned on my blog, I'll >restrict this to the ones likely of interest to people on this list. >Seems pointless to plug stuff like the Wire album too; there's plenty >of other stuff I've enjoyed, but it's not really in context here. > >Electronica (and this is totally biased, but so am I): > >Ulrich Schnauss - "A Strangely Isolated Place" >M83 - "Lost Cities, Red Seas and Dead Souls" >Posthuman - "Lagrange Point" >Four Tet - "Rounds" (doing the coffee-table circuit as we speak, sadly) > >Featuring Guitars: > >British Sea Power - "the Decline of British Sea Power" >Clearlake - "Cedars" >Broken Social Scene - "You Forgot It In People" >Yo La Tengo - "Summer Sun" >Mogwai, inevitably, but I'm a rationality-suspended fan >Aereogramme - "Sleep and Release" (though this is kind of a guilty pleasure: >they're certainly not shy of their Anthemic Rock Moves at times) > >Compilations: > >Worlds of Possibility (Domino Records) >Branches and Routes (Fat Cat) >Out of Our Heads on Skelp (Chemikal Underground) > >Particularly looking forward to the Mice Parade and Magnificents >records in early 2003; the latter of which I have a promo of, and it's >*very* good (not all-world; but interesting at least). Also, Franz >Ferdinand, McLusky, the second Ikara Colt record... > >- A (who had to interview Simple Minds' support act yesterday. They were >less bad than Kerr's mob, at least. I feel unclean.) > >-- >email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ >Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ >DJ, CUR1350 - http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ blog: http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ >"The Random Walk", 10pm Fridays | "... and now I couldn't sleep!" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 13:21:27 -0600 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] no excuse >> Mister Rogers' Neighborhood >> >> WFUM Dec 11 06:00am >> >> Episode #1564. >> A comet arrives in Make-Believe. > >ASTEROID!!!!! > >Mark ;-) nah ... you'll be wanting to check out mr rowland's neighborhood for that one ... dan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 13:31:50 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] rocket from the atlanta tombs? At 01:06 PM 12/9/2003 -0600, dan bailey wrote: >been meaning to ask if any of the (2-person?) atlanta-area contingent plan >to catch rocket from the tombs I'm seeing 'em here in Nashville (the current home of Cheetah Chrome -- we sort of discovered that he was in our midst, working in a warehouse here, after local rocker Tommy Womack released his song "Whatever Happened to Cheetah Chrome?") next Wednesday... later, Miles last played: Ted Leo/Pharmacists, HEARTS OF OAK (first listen) ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V6 #367 *******************************