From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #358 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, December 1 2003 Volume 06 : Number 358 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv [Andrew Walkingshaw ] Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] The Fat Lady of Dumfries ["Mike Edwards" ] Re:OT [idealcopy] devo [=?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= ] Re: OT [idealcopy] devo [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: OT [idealcopy] devo [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Talking Heads - Once In A Lifetime (box set) ["Tim" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv > Thank God for that. Doesn't mean some of us can't see merit in both of > them, though; that's what diversity of opinion is about. :-) Well I like Blur, Andrew. Nowhere near as much as I like Wire admittedly, but that's no disgrace. However, apart from liking some of the tracks you mentioned, I disagree with virtually everything you said here! People talk about 'tension' on records, and I would be the first to agree that (e.g.) generally McCartney's stuff was better with Lennon than on his own (and vice versa overall, let's not single out poor Paul!) The Blur and 13 albums might have had 'tension' abound, but with the odd exception, they weren't exactly great to listen to, were they? It's almost as if Damon and crew said "OK we've got rid of that pain in the arse, Coxon - great guitarist that is he. How about just concentrating on making a decent album, eh lads?". The rest of the band concurred, made one of my favourite albums of the year, and left mad Graham to go off and make his unpleasant album without Damon tapping him on the shoulder to ask where the fucking tune is. (Mentioning Paul & John was no coinicidence, because if Song for the Sick is really about Damon, then it truly is the How Do You Sleep of the Britpop generation). I think this Blur are ironic / dishonest stuff is a load of bollocks myself. They're a much better than average pop band who - post Great Escape at least - have released what they want to release, rather than continually bow to commercial pressures. So they've re-invented themselves a few times. So what! They still sound like Blur whether they're trying to be The Small Faces, The Beatles, Julian Cope or Pavement. Does growing, changing (and almost sabotaging your career?) make you dishonest? As for Damon...he's got an oz of intelligance between his ears. I can never understand why people hate that. It's almost like that provincial "Don't go using your big words round here, mate" thing that's so prevalent around here, for example. Damon is no more plummy than members of a group we all hold dear to our hearts, and I refuse to hate him for it. Even if he is a fucking southerner ; ) So Damon's not David Bowie. Neither is David Bowie anymore! There, that's my Sunday morning rant over. I'm just going to eat one my neighbours for breakfast ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:58:53 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 11:46:02AM -0000, Keith Astbury wrote: > The Blur and 13 albums might have had 'tension' abound, but with the odd > exception, they weren't exactly great to listen to, were they? I actually like them a hell of a lot: but you can't hear the tension on TGE or Parklife? It's what makes them outstanding pop records. (Case in point: the frankly *bizarre* solo on "Country House", probably the weirdest guitar part on any No. 1 single I can think of; also "Globe Alone", "Jubilee", the psycho parts of "This is a Low", "He Thought of Cars"... even the guitar part on Parklife seems to be alternately taking the piss out of and sabotaging the song. > It's almost as if Damon and crew said "OK we've got rid of that pain in the > arse, Coxon - great guitarist that is he. How about just concentrating on > making a decent album, eh lads?". It's not, though. (Here we disagree). It's a tedious, spiritless record with half-realised ideas; a "will this do?" bit of contract fulfillment. > The rest of the band concurred, made one of my favourite albums of the year, > and left mad Graham to go off and make his unpleasant album without Damon > tapping him on the shoulder to ask where the fucking tune is. (Mentioning > Paul & John was no coinicidence, because if Song for the Sick is really > about Damon, then it truly is the How Do You Sleep of the Britpop > generation). I *love* "The Kiss of Morning". This may well explain our divergent attitudes on the band, (I like the rest of his solo work, too). > > I think this Blur are ironic / dishonest stuff is a load of bollocks myself. It's not, though: Damon Albarn hides behind a detached perspective the whole time, and the interesting question to me is "what is he trying to hide?" There's something not quite right there. > Does growing, changing (and almost sabotaging your career?) make you > dishonest? > As for Damon...he's got an oz of intelligance between his ears. I can never > understand why people hate that. I know I'm thick as two short planks, naturally, but I don't hate bands for being intelligent. Quite the opposite, and I'd expect Wire aficionados to fall squarely into the smartarse camp myself :) > It's almost like that provincial "Don't go > using your big words round here, mate" thing that's so prevalent around > here, for example. Damon is no more plummy than members of a group we all > hold dear to our hearts, and I refuse to hate him for it. Even if he is a > fucking southerner ; ) > It's more that he's *glib*; he knows he's smart, and he's careerist, and he always has an eye for the main chance. He's smart enough to be a disconcertingly good liar, which makes him harder to trust: particularly as he's overused the "sincerity" gig at so many points that it doesn't work any more. My guess is that he's actually just profoundly insecure: which is why the emotional content of so much of the Parklife/ Great Escape stuff is so deeply buried and self-consciously obscured. > So Damon's not David Bowie. Neither is David Bowie anymore! So we're all beating on the wrong guy? - - Andrew - -- home - email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ work - email: adw27@esc.cam.ac.uk http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ radio: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ (10pm Fri) http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ "/Peep/". 'Yes?' "More cooookiessssss..." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:00:13 -0000 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Talking Heads - Once In A Lifetime (box set) Damn, to late to stop my Amazon order which is winging its way to me as I write. Do you know of any replacement arrangements, Tim? Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Tim Sent: 30 November 2003 02:26 To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Talking Heads - Once In A Lifetime (box set) I'm still gonna get it. However, a warning to those thinking of buying the Scott Walker box set. The 3rd CD is faulty and only plays in one channel, seems that this is true for the entire first run of the box set (ah major record companies, dontcha just love em?) - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Rogers" To: Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 3:19 PM Subject: [idealcopy] Talking Heads - Once In A Lifetime (box set) > I was able to acquire the new Talking Heads box set, Once In A Lifetime, the > other day for free by using Media Play gift certificates that I had. > It's a strong collection of tracks with 3 CD's of music and a DVD with the > long out-of-print "Storytelling Giant" collection of Talking Heads music > videos. The music is remastered and has a good sonic punch to it that the > old Sand In The Vasoline collection doesn't have...the tracklist is much > improved as well, in my opinion. > > The only problem with this otherwise brilliant box set lies with the > physical presentation itself. Once In A Lifetime has the most cumbersome > packaging that I've ever seen in a music release, even by box set standards. > The box set consists of a long (>2') and narrow (6'') coffee table book > with the CD's and DVD's held in pouches within the book cover. The book > will likely rip out of its spine if not opened while flat on a surface. > This is a shame, because the liner notes (featuring passages by all four > band members) are quite fascinating. > > My final verdict: > Music content = A+ > "Storytelling Giant" DVD = A+ > Liner Notes = A > Packaging = D- > > Here is a link to the tracklist for all interested: > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DII8Q/qid=1070032724/sr=2-1/ ref=sr_2_1/002-7524182-1664062 > > > Jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > Say goodbye to busy signals and slow downloads with a high-speed Internet > connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. > https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 07:04:56 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv In a message dated 30/11/2003 11:41:36 GMT Standard Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > So Damon's not David Bowie. Neither is David Bowie anymore! > Interesting Keith.I've only herad Bowie's new album - Reality once but it wasn't bad at all.And most reviews were favourable.One even saying it was his best work for twenty years ! Blur are what you described - A better than average pop band - albeit Britpop. Chris NP Plaid - Spokes ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:10:58 -0000 From: "Uri Baran" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv Andrew, Being a Blur fan and always regretting going to see Wire in Brixton supporting them and not waiting 'til Blur came on haunts me somewhat but anyway... I've been considering listening to Graham's solo output but need some pointers as to where to start. I love what he does for Blur, are there any good crossover CD's of his? Cheers Uri > > > The rest of the band concurred, made one of my favourite albums of the year, > > and left mad Graham to go off and make his unpleasant album without Damon > > tapping him on the shoulder to ask where the fucking tune is. (Mentioning > > Paul & John was no coinicidence, because if Song for the Sick is really > > about Damon, then it truly is the How Do You Sleep of the Britpop > > generation). > > I *love* "The Kiss of Morning". This may well explain our divergent > attitudes on the band, (I like the rest of his solo work, too). > > > > > I think this Blur are ironic / dishonest stuff is a load of bollocks myself. > > It's not, though: Damon Albarn hides behind a detached perspective the whole > time, and the interesting question to me is "what is he trying to hide?" > There's something not quite right there. > > > Does growing, changing (and almost sabotaging your career?) make you > > dishonest? > > > As for Damon...he's got an oz of intelligance between his ears. I can never > > understand why people hate that. > > I know I'm thick as two short planks, naturally, but I don't hate bands > for being intelligent. Quite the opposite, and I'd expect Wire aficionados > to fall squarely into the smartarse camp myself :) > > > It's almost like that provincial "Don't go > > using your big words round here, mate" thing that's so prevalent around > > here, for example. Damon is no more plummy than members of a group we all > > hold dear to our hearts, and I refuse to hate him for it. Even if he is a > > fucking southerner ; ) > > > > It's more that he's *glib*; he knows he's smart, and he's careerist, > and he always has an eye for the main chance. He's smart enough to be > a disconcertingly good liar, which makes him harder to trust: > particularly as he's overused the "sincerity" gig at so many points > that it doesn't work any more. My guess is that he's actually just > profoundly insecure: which is why the emotional content of so much of > the Parklife/ Great Escape stuff is so deeply buried and > self-consciously obscured. > > > So Damon's not David Bowie. Neither is David Bowie anymore! > > So we're all beating on the wrong guy? > > - Andrew > > -- > home - email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ > work - email: adw27@esc.cam.ac.uk http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ > radio: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ (10pm Fri) http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ > "/Peep/". 'Yes?' "More cooookiessssss..." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:00:14 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv > On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 11:46:02AM -0000, Keith Astbury wrote: > > The Blur and 13 albums might have had 'tension' abound, but with the odd > > exception, they weren't exactly great to listen to, were they? > > I actually like them a hell of a lot: but you can't hear the tension > on TGE or Parklife? It's what makes them outstanding pop records. Or maybe it's because they're outstanding pop songs. You can have great music where the whole band are singing from the same hymn book, you know. > > It's almost as if Damon and crew said "OK we've got rid of that pain in the > > arse, Coxon - great guitarist that is he. How about just concentrating on > > making a decent album, eh lads?". > > It's not, though. (Here we disagree). It's a tedious, spiritless record > with half-realised ideas; a "will this do?" bit of contract fulfillment. To each his own. There's some genuinely lovely warm moments, and a very nice production to boot imo. And did I mention the songs! > I *love* "The Kiss of Morning". This may well explain our divergent > attitudes on the band Not at all. I said only yesterday how much I liked the KOM album. I just think on current form that the two of them make better music separately than they have done together in recent years, in the same way (to put it in Wire terms) I prefer say It-ness and Bastard to Manscape and First Letter. But that's not to say Damon & Graham couldn't get back together in the future and make their very own Send... > It's not, though: Damon Albarn hides behind a detached perspective the whole > time, and the interesting question to me is "what is he trying to hide?" > There's something not quite right there. He's a singer / songwriter. Why should he have to bear his soul for us? I don't go along with all bollocks myself. He's a person first and foremost and the fact that we like his music doesn't give us some divine right to demand he tell us his deepest secrets. > I know I'm thick as two short planks, naturally says the only person on this list to have appeared on University Challenge ; ) > It's more that he's *glib*; he knows he's smart, and he's careerist, > and he always has an eye for the main chance. Good luck to him then. > He's smart enough to be > a disconcertingly good liar, which makes him harder to trust: > particularly as he's overused the "sincerity" gig at so many points > that it doesn't work any more. My guess is that he's actually just > profoundly insecure: which is why the emotional content of so much of > the Parklife/ Great Escape stuff is so deeply buried and > self-consciously obscured. But that's only your guess. He "hides behind a detached perspective" remember! But some of the material since Great Escape has come across as *very* personal 'break up' stuff. For fuck's sake, how 'emotional' do you want it!!! Chris... >I've only herad Bowie's new album - Reality once but it >wasn't bad at all.And most reviews were favourable.One even saying it was his >best work for twenty years ! Yeah. It's pretty good, but I don't rate it as highly as the last one, Heathen. Or the very disappointing-on-1st-listen-but-real- slow-burner Hours from a few years back. I liked that one a *lot*... Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 10:06:04 -0500 From: "Mike Edwards" Subject: [idealcopy] The Fat Lady of Dumfries I've written a novella with a few choice Eno references that is available on line at Ink Magazine (http://www.ink-mag.com). Please go read it! Mike Edwards aka S.C. Crow "You are not only the age you are. You are all the ages you've ever been." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 11:37:34 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv In a message dated 11/30/03 6:06:21 AM Central Standard Time, CHRISWIRE@aol.com writes: > NP Plaid - Spokes > ahh...now you're talkin' ! forget all this Blur nonsense...Plaid are back and have returned to form! now if only Black Dog would do the same... RL np - Pierre Henry - Symphony For The Man Alone (Nurse With Wound eat yer heart out!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:03:11 +0000 From: "John Roberts" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Art Attacks on cd Edwin Pouncey is indeed Sav Pencil. Robert is right about his status as Frank Tovey's ex-flatmate and that the info appears on the Mute/Documentary Evidence inserts. At least it does in my copy of Kidney Bingos. Cheers John http://www.surf.to/ambition >From: RLynn9@aol.com >To: Ad_Roon@hotmail.com, idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Art Attacks on cd >Date: Fri, 28 Nov 2003 16:53:49 EST > >In a message dated 11/28/03 3:23:53 PM Central Standard Time, >Ad_Roon@hotmail.com writes: > > > I think Edwin Pouncey is the man behind Savage Pencil and the >journalist > > who writes for the Wire and in former days Sounds. > > Don't know about a link with Fad Gadget. Maybe someone else can confirm >this > > > > JJN > > > >i THINK that i may have read this once in one of those old Mute Records >update sheets that came free with any vinyl 12" or Lp... > >ahh...the good old days of Mute.. > >RL _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:18:36 +0000 From: "John Roberts" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv Well I like Devo and the Pet Shop Boys. Irony with a healthy self deprecation. Blur? Irony done by stroppy arrogant posh boy coke heads. Or; if I met Devo or PSB I'd want to shake their hands. If I met Damon I'd want to poke his eyes out ... with a hammer. Cheers John http://www.surf.to/ambition >From: Monochromatic Man >To: idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 03:32:52 +0000 (GMT) > >It's Saturday night. What is everyone doing home? > >The Great Escape was the last Blur album I liked. >Maybe half of 'Blur'. Only a few singles after that. > >As for reissues: > >Pop Art box set is very good. The third disc has some >remastered remixes that weren't on the cd reissues a >few years back. I really wanted the vinyl, but it's >too expensive. >Haven't watched the dvd yet. Brings my PSB collection >to 63 cds and over 50 pieces of vinyl. >I expect some backlash over that. > >The DEVO dvd is great for the audio commentary. Too >bad it's a reissue of the 1993 laserdisc. >I don't think the sound is quite up to today's >standards. > >By the way, I love some pop music. I am not ashamed. >I like some crappy videos too. > >Everything I like doesn't have to sound like fax >tones. > >good night > >p.s. Kylie's new cd is good, but not as immediate as >her last. I prefer her sister's latest cd. > > >--- Andrew Walkingshaw >wrote: > On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 02:14:26AM -0000, Tim >wrote: > > > Blur <> Wire > > > > Thank God for that. Doesn't mean some of us can't > > see merit in both of > > them, though; that's what diversity of opinion is > > about. :-) > > > >..." > >________________________________________________________________________ >Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! >Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:31:29 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv > Or; if I met Devo or PSB I'd want to shake their hands. If I met Damon I'd > want to poke his eyes out ... with a hammer. If I met PSB's I want to shake their hands, too. If I met Devo, I'd pat them on their plant pots. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:34:11 +0000 (GMT) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Monochromatic=20Man?= Subject: Re:OT [idealcopy] devo I did meet Devo in 1988 and shook their hands. They were a bit on the short side... --- Keith Astbury wrote: > > Or; if I met Devo or PSB I'd want to shake their > hands. If I met Damon > I'd > > want to poke his eyes out ... with a hammer. > > If I met PSB's I want to shake their hands, too. If > I met Devo, I'd pat them > on their plant pots. > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:48:00 +0000 From: "John Roberts" Subject: Re:OT [idealcopy] devo More plus points for Devo is that they grew up and got proper jobs making Rugrats cartoons. I wish Damon would feck off and do the same. Oh, sorry he did - Gorillaz. (Couldn't his parents have done us all a favour and bought him his own cartoon factory?) Sorry - I really don't want to get involved in a debate as to the merits or otherwise of Blur/Damon. I've always managed to resist in the past and I should really have just kept my opinions on the loathsome little cnut to myself really this time. Suffice to say that for me Damon Blur is to 'alternative/indie/post-punk' music what Tim Westwood is for hip hop. Although in Westwood's defence I've never heard him sneering at people because they're working class. Cheers John http://www.surf.to/ambition >From: Monochromatic Man >To: idealcopy@smoe.org >Subject: Re:OT [idealcopy] devo >Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 18:34:11 +0000 (GMT) > >I did meet Devo in 1988 and shook their hands. They >were a bit on the short side... > > --- Keith Astbury wrote: > > > Or; if I met Devo or PSB I'd want to shake their > > hands. If I met Damon > > I'd > > > want to poke his eyes out ... with a hammer. > > > > If I met PSB's I want to shake their hands, too. If > > I met Devo, I'd pat them > > on their plant pots. > > > > > > > > > >________________________________________________________________________ >Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! >Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk _________________________________________________________________ Get Hotmail on your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 14:44:32 EST From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: OT [idealcopy] devo In a message dated 30/11/2003 18:49:14 GMT Standard Time, johnroberts_stats@hotmail.com writes: > More plus points for Devo is that they grew up and got proper jobs making > Rugrats cartoons //////mark mothersbaugh writes the music for "clifford the big red dog" , one of my daughters favourites. a really crap cartoon with music you would never guess came from anybody of MM's pedigree. p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:44:06 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] coffee + tv In a message dated 11/30/03 12:27:19 PM Central Standard Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > If I met PSB's I want to shake their hands, too. If I met Devo, I'd pat > them > on their plant pots. > i'd stick a fork in their toasters RL np - Devo - Freedom of Choice ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 16:45:30 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: OT [idealcopy] devo In a message dated 11/30/03 12:36:08 PM Central Standard Time, xj23@yahoo.com writes: > I did meet Devo in 1988 and shook their hands. They > were a bit on the short side... > > all that acid Mark Mothersbaugh ingested during the Studio 54 heyday must have stunted his growth RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:18:51 -0000 From: "Tim" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Talking Heads - Once In A Lifetime (box set) No news as yet. I've asked the Scott List but most of them don't seem that bothered...presumably most of them won't even open the wrapper as they've got all the tracks. Will be interested to know if your box has the faulty disc. - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Knight" To: "'Tim'" ; Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 12:00 PM Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Talking Heads - Once In A Lifetime (box set) Damn, to late to stop my Amazon order which is winging its way to me as I write. Do you know of any replacement arrangements, Tim? Another the Keith . > https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 00:06:58 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] The Sound BBC Recordings Fans of The Sound may be interested in this... http://www.renascent.co.uk/pagessound/sound.html [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of Adrian Borland - The Sound.url] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2003 08:52:39 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Uneasy Sunny Day Hutu Tutsi (was: coffee + tv) > Blur? Irony done by stroppy arrogant posh boy coke heads. > If I met Damon I'd want to poke his eyes out ... with a hammer. > I wish Damon would feck off and do the same. Oh, sorry > he did - Gorillaz. (Couldn't his parents have done us all a favour and > bought him his own cartoon factory?) Sorry - I really don't want to get > involved in a debate as to the merits or otherwise of Blur/Damon. I've > always managed to resist in the past and I should really have just kept my > opinions on the loathsome little cnut to myself really this time. Suffice > to say that for me Damon Blur is to 'alternative/indie/post-punk' music what > Tim Westwood is for hip hop. Although in Westwood's defence I've never > heard him sneering at people because they're working class. That whole medieval class-orientated way of thinking oughta be ditched real soon. E.g. the Britpop documentary we discussed a few months back showed a Noel G. disclaiming his soul to be a lot more pure (than Damon's of course) because he was working class. Both are talking such bollocks! Being guilty from birth just because you're in this or that class is so close to rascism! Bart ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V6 #358 *******************************