From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #313 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, October 20 2003 Volume 06 : Number 313 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Belgian Wirespace [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] Battle of the blands [P J Kane ] [idealcopy] Hip Priest Congregation / Endless Carnivals ["Bill Hick" ] Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) [P J Kane ] Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) -- there is a time l imit on replies [P J Kane ] [idealcopy] I'd rather have Radiohead...... [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) [P J Kane Subject: [idealcopy] Belgian Wirespace http://users.belgacom.net/treets_reservesite/dubdub.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:26:36 GMT From: P J Kane Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Battle of the blands << my fondness for sweet home alabama notwithstanding (& i very nearly cited freebird in my original post, too) -- must be something in the southern u.s. water >> i dunno about that "water" theory Dan -- i have been in ATL since 1983, and i have yet to develop a fondness for, or even the ability to tolerate, Lyrnrd Skynnrd. oh well. PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:46:23 +0000 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Hip Priest Congregation / Endless Carnivals 29.9 Guided By Voices - Manchester Roadhouse 1.10 Black Francis / Serafin (154) - Manchester Uni 2.10 The Fall - Manchester Bierkeller (Appreciated!) 3.10 KILLING JOKE - Liverpool Academy 4.10 The People's Assembly of Manchester 5.10 KILLING JOKE - Leeds Poly (way out again) 6.10 KILLING JOKE - Manchester Uni (Fall of Because) 7.10 KILLING JOKE - Nottingham Rock City (Frenzy!) 8.10 Valerie - Manchester Retrobar 9.10 Charger / Ripley / Aped Bi Sapien - Manchester Star & Garter 10.10 Phil Marks, Dave Jackson & Graham Clark - Manchester Britons Protection (Freeform) 11.10 KILLING JOKE / Queen Adreena - London Astoria 12.10 KILLING JOKE / Queen Adreena - London Astoria (death is a myth) 13.10 KILLING JOKE - Cardiff MS1 (fire dances) Tapping into the AEON! 17.10 KILLING JOKE - Preston Mill (everything's alive!) 18.10 Bardo Pond / Mogwai - Manchester Academy (8 times faster) 19.10 Jello Biafra - Manchester Life Cafe 20.10 Triclops / Sunroof! / Sunburned Hand of Man - Manchester Star & Garter 21.10 Bardo Pond / Mogwai - Birmingham Sanctuary 22.10 Bardo Pond / Mogwai - Bristol Academy 23.10 Bardo Pond / Mogwai - London Astoria 24.10 Bardo Pond / Mogwai - London Astoria 26.10 Public Enemy - Manchester Academy 27.10 The Fall - Manchester HMV 6pm 29.10 Melt Banana - Birmingham Medecine Bar 30.10 Melt Banana / Cat On Form / Mogwai - Brighton 31.10 Melt Banana / Bilge Pump - Manchester Bierkeller Next Month More Melt Banana, Enon, Otomo Yoshihide, Derek Bailey, Philip Jeck, Personell, Tony Bevan, The Darkest Hour, Cat On Form, Valerie, Gravy Train, Anti-Republicrat Action, etc, etc. No time for Bit SillEE on the AOL con & Judges too with a chicken in his bandolier subscribbling Yahoos that he wants everyone to think someone else did. Or was that a monosyllabic (nana) man? No time for chubby twerps like the slug on my back that wouldn't stop chewing. Over the wall, watch him fall! Timpty Dumbty shat on my wall Timpty Dumbty had a great Fall All Tony's pencils and all Wilson's pens Couldn't put Timpty together again Get out of my face forever spying lying creep I'm happy to kill your china pig No protein protection for you This is LIFE in THE FALL Are you receiving? They're printing up money that doesn't exist By the time they see us we'll be on our way MOVE IN ON THEM! MOVE IN ON THEM! MOVE IN ON THEM! MOVE IN ON THEM! MOVE IN ON THEM! MOVE IN ON THEM! Scupper the Destroyer! http://www.votetoimpeach.org/ _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:16:23 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) In a message dated 10/16/03 7:35:13 AM Central Daylight Time, postlibyan@netzero.com writes: > they took a fr*ggin SMOKE BREAK in the middle of their show, leaving the > audience in a darkend club staring at a stage full of gear that was cranking > out music. WTF??? now, i really liked what i was hearing, but still -- at > least try and put some effort into a stage show, okay?>>>>> WHY?.....who cares what the people are doing on the stage...it's the music that is important.....close your eyes and use your imagination...music is supposed to transport..... do you dislike books when there are no pictures? aren't stage shows like Kiss and Alice Cooper and Marilyn Manson for teenagers ...aren't posing rock-stars just maturbatory fantasy material for teenage girls? > > which is something i will say in favor of the band Plaid. musically they > are equally parts Boards of Canada and Aphex Twin (which is a decent blend, > really, but which seems to wear on me after a while...), but live they are > energetic. they are the only eelectronic act i have seen that bothered to, ~ > gasp~, interact with the crowd. they smiled, waved, chatted, danced.....>>>> not when i saw them in chicago....they just relied on videos on the backscreen..big deal...i do not need visual stimulation when i am at a concert.... > > i dunno -- maybe this is an American thing, but seeing a show where a couple > of people stand over a bunch of gear and don't really move or anything, well, > that's dull.... which is why, although i like electronic music, i am very > skeptical of going to see the performers on tour... > > PJK>>>>>>>>> so if Autechre wore leather trousers (sorry Keith A.) and feather boas and jumped around and did high-kicks and head-banged, would that make their concerts more valid in your eyes (ears)??? RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:21:18 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [needlessly meta] on the nature of mailing lists, and of wire... In a message dated 10/16/03 10:25:03 AM Central Daylight Time, andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk writes: > Maybe the middle-ground is silence; maybe we should all just wait for > the next PostEverything news, and then our differences wouldn't divide > - really, they wouldn't matter at all. With a band such as Wire, who > draw in so many from so wide, with so different personal perspectives, > there (fittingly) aren't any easy answers. > > - Andrew nah...we like to talk, share a few laughs, and gossip...it's fun and it's a break from the tedium of the day...we all need a break from work and paying taxes (so that some can sit around and reap the benefits....) ; ) it's not that big of a deal that we aren't ALL as intense as some others....We don't have to talk about Wire every waking second..or music for that matter.....some of us do not have time to sit around and write beautiful bits of poetry about Wire, Killing Joke, The Fall, etc... RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:37:22 +0000 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] The Kids Are Alright http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2003-09-17/music.html/1/index.html Children's impressions of Radiohead . . . if I was Thom Yorke I'd quit now Scupper the Destroyer! http://www.votetoimpeach.org/ _________________________________________________________________ Find a cheaper internet access deal - choose one to suit you. http://www.msn.co.uk/internetaccess ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:44:16 GMT From: P J Kane Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) << WHY?.....who cares what the people are doing on the stage... >> i do. i paid for a SHOW, not just for music. << it's the music that is important.....close your eyes and use your imagination...music is supposed to transport..... >> i can do that at home, with the album. when i go to a concert i expect, no i demand, that the artist do SOMETHING to entertain me. maybe if electronic artists performed in concert halls full of LazyBoy recliners then i wouldn't care what they are doing, but when we are all standing around, STARING at them (since the concert hall itself is designed to focus the attention on the stage) then they need to do something. << do you dislike books when there are no pictures? >> an entirely different thing. not at all a valid comparision. << aren't stage shows like Kiss and Alice Cooper and Marilyn Manson for teenagers ...>> i doubt that -- KISS in particular sells too well to be just for teenagers. but what are you saying -- that because people are older they don't want to see good spectacle? you are aware that most people spend thier non-work time willfully distracted by the spectacle of television, aren't you? people want something to look at. we want an aknowledgement of our humanness. we want a bond, however fake and distanced, between us and the performer. Rock music happened to have been very good at establishing that bond, at aknowledging the presence of other humans. << aren't posing rock-stars just maturbatory fantasy material for teenage girls? >> i dunno. having never been a teenage girl i cannot answer that... << not when i saw them in chicago....they just relied on videos on the backscreen..big deal...i do not need visual stimulation when i am at a concert.... >> really? so what do you do with your eyes -- stand there with them closed? look at your beer? stare at the crowd? if there is not going to be something to look at, why not just stay home and play the album????? << so if Autechre wore leather trousers (sorry Keith A.) and feather boas and jumped around and did high-kicks and head-banged, would that make their concerts more valid in your eyes (ears)??? >> a concert is not just sound -- a concert is a LIVE experience. in order for it to be a live experience the performer has to, somehow, interact with the audience. sure, jumping around would do it. so would waving and smiling at the crowd (like Plaid). Nobukazu Takemura did it well -- he walked on stage, did a japanese bow, then turned on a synced video display. then when he was doen he bowed again then walked off. that's all it took -- a little biut of aknowledgement that yes, people are there, and they do have a visual sense as well. Autechre totally ignored the audience -- they might as well have been at home. Mira Calix was the same way -- did she even know that a crowd was there? anyway, the point is that, if you are going to be in a place with actual human beings, you should try to interact with them. i honestly get the feeling that Autechre and Mira Calix only play live shows because the label wants them to. they certainly do not seem to care about the audience. i say -- just stay home and only produce albums. i am perfectly fine with that. but if you are going to tour, do SOMETHING. anything up there on stage will do.... PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 18:27:57 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: [idealcopy] aaaw rats! http://www.playmore.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:44:38 GMT From: P J Kane Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) -- there is a time l imit on replies actually, the title sums it up -- if this was a "alte reply", what is the time limit on replies? PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:29:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... >WHY?.....who cares what the people are doing on the stage...it's the music that is important.....close your eyes and use your imagination...music is supposed to transport.....< Then why bother going to a concert Robert? why not just stay at home with a dozen friends and play the c.d? Ari The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 11:38:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] I'd rather have Radiohead...... ..........than Oasis any day of the week..............or some of the many electronica mentioned hereabouts of late.Ari The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:51:22 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... >>WHY?.....who cares what the people are doing on the stage...it's the music >that is important.....close your eyes and use your imagination...music is supposed to transport.....< >Then why bother going to a concert Robert? why not just stay at home with a dozen friends "a dozen friends"? if robert has a dozen friends with decent musical tastes, he's a lucky guy indeed. dan and play the c.d? Ari >The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:54:31 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... In a message dated 10/20/03 1:49:27 PM Central Daylight Time, threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com writes: > Then why bother going to a concert Robert? why not just stay at home with a > dozen friends and play the c.d? Ari i already explained that.....because there is nothing like being moved be really loud sound....being engulfed by it.... RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:56:44 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... In a message dated 10/20/03 1:52:18 PM Central Daylight Time, dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: > "a dozen friends"? if robert has a dozen friends with decent musical tastes, > he's a lucky guy indeed. > > dan there's more than a dozen of you guys here on IC (how's that for brown-nosing?).... RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 15:05:11 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... In a message dated 10/20/03 1:56:17 PM Central Daylight Time, RLynn9@aol.com writes: > > Then why bother going to a concert Robert? why not just stay at home with a > > > dozen friends and play the c.d? Ari > > i already explained that.....because there is nothing like being moved be > really loud sound....being engulfed by it.... > > RL AND furthermore, because i live in St. Louis (unfortunately) i rarely find many interesting shows to go to....emo/indie(?) rock is the order of the day here...once in a great while The Legendary Pink Dots will come through....(the Cocteau Twins and Morrissey came through once)...or the occasional just breaking big act like Sigur Ros ...but as far as music that i like, only the occasional "rave" or warehouse party will offer someone decent up like Derrick May or Juan Atkins or someone similar to a decent electronic act like Plastikman.. the almighty Wire....or someone dear to my heart like Coil have never been here... (i'm sure you feel my pain Dan...but at least i am close to Chicago and you are fairly close to Atlanta) RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 14:09:21 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... >In a message dated 10/20/03 1:52:18 PM Central Daylight Time, >dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: > >> "a dozen friends"? if robert has a dozen friends with decent musical tastes, >> he's a lucky guy indeed. >> >> dan > > >there's more than a dozen of you guys here on IC (how's that for >brown-nosing?).... > >RL actually, i thought of that myself, but i somehow doubt we're all physically (or for that matter, in some cases, mentally) available to park ourselves in front of your stereo. besides, probably a big fight would break out when i started insisting on afos, the cars or elo ... dan, chuffed to have minutes ago received the planet patrol cd in the mail from scotland (ahh, the wonders of musicstack) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 20:18:48 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) > so if Autechre wore leather trousers (sorry Keith A.) and feather boas and > jumped around and did high-kicks and head-banged, would that make their concerts > more valid in your eyes (ears)??? Absolutely. I would pay FIVE whole pounds to see that. K. np Smog - supper (ambition is a definite contender for my track of the yr so far...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:46:35 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Robert wrote... > probably a big fight would break out when i > started insisting on afos, the cars or elo ... ... or Lynyrd Skynyrd! -Bart ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:47:06 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) RL: << it's the music that is important.....close your eyes and use your > imagination...music is supposed to transport..... >> > PJK: i can do that at home, with the album. when i go to a concert i expect, no > i demand, that the artist do SOMETHING to entertain me.>>>> that's the problem....music is just considered entertainment most of the time...instead of an experience as some of it should..... > PJK: maybe if electronic artists performed in concert halls full of LazyBoy > recliners then i wouldn't care what they are doing, but when we are all > standing around, STARING at them (since the concert hall itself is designed > to focus the attention on the stage) then they need to do something.>>>>> RL: what's to keep YOU from doing something? dance? imagine? feel? listen? RL: << do you dislike books when there are no pictures? >> > PJK: an entirely different thing. not at all a valid comparision.>>>>>>>> RL: not with some bands it isn't....a band like Autechre is taking you on a journey...just like a book...if you have some imagination, you don't need images fed to you...you could conjure them up on your own.....it is so tedious for electronic music to be compared to rock music...most electronic musicians are trying to break away from rock-n-roll entirely and should not held (confined) to the same rules.. RL : << aren't stage shows like Kiss and Alice Cooper and Marilyn Manson for > teenagers ...>> > PJK: i doubt that -- KISS in particular sells too well to be just for teenagers.>>>> RL: yes, and tons of immature old fogeys who can't let it go and admit that their "heroes" aren't relevant anymore......(as if they ever were) PJK: but what are you saying -- that because people are older they don't want to > see good spectacle? you are aware that most people spend thier non-work time > willfully distracted by the spectacle of television, aren't you?>>>>> RL: that's their problem....and that is THE problem... PJK: people want > something to look at. we want an aknowledgement of our humanness. we want a > bond, however fake and distanced, between us and the performer. RL: ah...i see...so the only way we can register our "humanity" or "humanness" as you put it, is by visual images?.......yeah i guess David Lee Roth's high kicks always made me feel somehow more human as opposed to a night out at the symphony? have you ever seen Derek Jarman's film: "Blue" ....just a blue screen...no images...just the sounds of a dying Derek Jarman and his own thoughts as he narrates them.....that film made me feel more human than any hollywood crap about the hero saving the day and getting the girl.... PJK: Rock music happened to have been very good at establishing that bond, at > aknowledging the presence of other humans.>>>>> RL: i still don't see what flinging around an "axe" and twirling drumsticks and doing odd things with microphones (that are just phallic in nature anyway) has to do with being "human"....it seems to me that most rock/pop music these days is an endless parade of : "look at me! look what i have and what you don't!" (i.e. MTV Cribs...rap music's popularity..etc.) RL: << aren't posing rock-stars just maturbatory fantasy material for teenage > girls? >> > PJK: i dunno. having never been a teenage girl i cannot answer that...>>>>> RL: but surely you can't miss that fact... RL: << not when i saw them in chicago....they just relied on videos on the > backscreen..big deal...i do not need visual stimulation when i am at a > concert.... >> > PJK: really? so what do you do with your eyes -- stand there with them closed? > look at your beer? stare at the crowd?>>>>> RL: honestly? YES....all of the above.... PJK: if there is not going to be something to look at, why not just stay home and > play the album?????>>>>>> RL: because there is nothing like being engulfed by SOUND...i could never play music at home loud enough to FEEL things that actually vibrate my body, mind, and soul.... > RL: << so if Autechre wore leather trousers (sorry Keith A.) and feather boas > and jumped around and did high-kicks and head-banged, would that make their > concerts more valid in your eyes (ears)??? >> > PJK: a concert is not just sound -- a concert is a LIVE experience. in order for > it to be a live experience the performer has to, somehow, interact with the > audience. sure, jumping around would do it. so would waving and smiling at > the crowd (like Plaid).>>>>>> RL: so, dumb little things like waving and smiling get you off at a show and make you feel "connected"??? PJK: Nobukazu Takemura did it well -- he walked on stage, did a japanese bow, > then turned on a synced video display. then when he was doen he bowed again > then walked off. that's all it took -- a little biut of aknowledgement that > yes, people are there, and they do have a visual sense as well.>>>>> RL: that's all it takes?.....is your ego so fragile that you cannot take not being acknowledged?....sheesh, this is getting more ridiculous by the minute..... PJK: Autechre totally ignored the audience -- they might as well have been at > home. Mira Calix was the same way -- did she even know that a crowd was > there?>>>>>>> RL: THAT is Autechre's whole schtick! have you ever noticed their song titles? they refuse to acknowledge their connection with humanity! the machines have taken over so to speak....the logical conclusion to the warnings Kraftwerk were spewing out (their schtick) around the time of Man Machine and Computer World.....the machines HAVE taken over in Autechre's world....so for them to wave and smile and slap hands with audience would go against their premise.... PJK: anyway, the point is that, if you are going to be in a place with actual > human beings, you should try to interact with them.>>>>> RL: sure...if you are a rock band or anything close to one (even though i had no problem with shoegazer's staring at their shoes for an entire show...nor did i have a problem with The Jesus and Mary Chain turning their backs to the audience) PJK: i honestly get the feeling that Autechre and Mira Calix only play live shows > because the label wants them to.>>>>> RL: probably...because people still won't let electronic music be it's own beast...even record labels want them to conform to rock/pop standards: make ep...whet appetite for lp....make lp...promote by touring...etc... PJK: they certainly do not seem to care about > the audience. >>>>> RL: should they? are you having them around for tea? are they babysitting your children?...if you like what a band does, support them..go see them live...but don't put ridiculous expectations on them...they don't know you....and besides, how do you know that they don't care? have you asked them lately? PJK: i say -- just stay home and only produce albums. i am > perfectly fine with that. but if you are going to tour, do SOMETHING. > anything up there on stage will do....>>>>> yeah, in true rock fashion....pull your penis out, shake it at the crowd....swing from something....show your bare ass....do a choreographed dance routine....spit or piss on someone...blow things up....stage dive.....do ANYTHING to make the monkeys clap and cheer and feel "connected" and "human" whatever... RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 17:23:57 GMT From: P J Kane Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) << that's the problem....music is just considered entertainment most of the time...instead of an experience as some of it should..... >> it _is_ "just" entertainment. right? i mean -- what the f*ck else could you it possibly be? what do you mean? music is brian surgery? music produces food? no -- that makes no sense..... i don't get it. << what's to keep YOU from doing something? dance? imagine? feel? listen? >> nothing stops me, and i do do that. but i still want to see something on stage. that is why there is a stage, up there, in the front of the room raised to that people can see what is on it. << not with some bands it isn't....a band like Autechre is taking you on a journey...just like a book...if you have some imagination, you don't need images fed to you...you could conjure them up on your own..... >> maybe if i were sitting down and relaxing, but not standing shoulder to shoulder with a mass of humanity. and the volume -- part of what i like about live music is that it is actually loud enough to shut off my brain. so, in a way if the concert goes right it kills imagination be forcingh itself to dominate my consciousness. << it is so tedious for electronic music to be compared to rock music...most electronic musicians are trying to break away from rock-n-roll entirely and should not held (confined) to the same rules.. >> then don't tour. the entire concept of "concert" is defined by Rock. or Jazz. if you want to break away from that, then stay home. i don't mind, really. but if i am going out of my house to pay money to see somebody "perform", then i want to see them do more than move the mouse around and click on things. << yes, and tons of immature old fogeys who can't let it go and admit that their "heroes" aren't relevant anymore......(as if they ever were) >> somewhat ironic of you to say this on a list devoted to an old fogey rock band.... << ah...i see...so the only way we can register our "humanity" or "humanness" as you put it, is by visual images?.......yeah i guess David Lee Roth's high kicks always made me feel somehow more human as opposed to a night out at the symphony? >> hmmm. i have no comeback to this. maybe it isn't the visuality. maybe it is something else that i cannot put into words. and i am jealous -- i never got to see David Lee Roth. when did you see him? with Van Halen or not? << have you ever seen Derek Jarman's film: "Blue" ....just a blue screen...no images...just the sounds of a dying Derek Jarman and his own thoughts as he narrates them.....that film made me feel more human than any hollywood crap about the hero saving the day and getting the girl.... >> never even heard of Derek Jarman. i hate films though.... << i still don't see what flinging around an "axe" and twirling drumsticks and doing odd things with microphones (that are just phallic in nature anyway) has to do with being "human".... >> it is a celebration of the human ability to move! << it seems to me that most rock/pop music these days is an endless parade of : "look at me! look what i have and what you don't!" (i.e. MTV Cribs...rap music's popularity..etc.) >> i have only seen Rappers on YO MTV Cribs..... << RL: but surely you can't miss that fact... >> when i go to shows, most rock fans are guys. does that mean they are all secretly closeted and lusting after Ben Gibbard? i don't think so. i mean, sure a few probably are, but i think it is more about transporting the individual out fo the dreariness of their lives. let's face it -- most of us live a monotonous existence, and a rock star up there on stage shaking it can allow us, for a brief moment, to imagine that we can have that much fun. (and it does look fun!) << honestly? YES....all of the above.... >> and you don't feel akward/confused? i mean -- there they are, ON STAGE, in a place where my vision is supposed to be focuse by the design of the room. and i look and i see ... Oval moving his mouse around. Authechre sitting in chairs smoking ciagarettes and chatting with each other. uh.... << because there is nothing like being engulfed by SOUND...i could never play music at home loud enough to FEEL things that actually vibrate my body, mind, and soul.... >> maybe you just need a better stereo! << so, dumb little things like waving and smiling get you off at a show and make you feel "connected"??? >> well, at least it made it look like they both knew that people were there and were having a good time. << that's all it takes?.....is your ego so fragile that you cannot take not being acknowledged? >> no, my ego can't take it. but thanks RL, you have made my day .... :) (he notices....) << THAT is Autechre's whole schtick! have you ever noticed their song titles? they refuse to acknowledge their connection with humanity! the machines have taken over so to speak....the logical conclusion to the warnings Kraftwerk were spewing out (their schtick) around the time of Man Machine and Computer World.....the machines HAVE taken over in Autechre's world....so for them to wave and smile and slap hands with audience would go against their premise.... >> if that is the case then i am selling all my Autechre CDs! i thought that they were a couple of people who made interesting tones on a computer. silly me.... << sure...if you are a rock band or anything close to one (even though i had no problem with shoegazer's staring at their shoes for an entire show...nor did i have a problem with The Jesus and Mary Chain turning their backs to the audience) >> actually, that is a good point RL. however, most of the (admittedly Nth generation) shoegazer acts i have seen at least aknowledge the crowd. and the two times i saw J&MC they did the standard shoegaze watch the shoes thingie, except for whoever was singing.... << RL: probably... because people still won't let electronic music be it's own beast...even record labels want them to conform to rock/pop standards: make ep...whet appetite for lp....make lp...promote by touring...etc... >> if they are only doing live shows to fill an expectation to be something they don't want to be, then they need to have the cojones to stand up to the label and say "sorry, i don't tour!" stop being pussies and get on with it! << should they? are you having them around for tea? >> maybe. well, coffee, because i am American.... but the same thing... << if you like what a band does, support them..go see them live...but don't put ridiculous expectations on them... >> what -- you consider the expectation that, when i travel somewhere to be in the presence of other human beings, they actual try and create a human connection? that is an unrealistic expectation???? what would be a "realistic expectation"? can i relistically expect they will play music? how about that they actually show up? what do they realistically expect from me? i mean, aside from money..... << they don't know you....and besides, how do you know that they don't care? have you asked them lately? >> of course they don't care! they never call anymore..... << yeah, in true rock fashion....pull your penis out, shake it at the crowd....swing from something....show your bare ass....do a choreographed dance routine....spit or piss on someone...blow things up....stage dive.....do ANYTHING to make the monkeys clap and cheer and feel "connected" and "human" >> indeed. PJK please don't hate me because i can't type..... - --- All the cool kids are doing it: HTTP://www.EvilSponge.org ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:08:28 +0100 From: "sean bowen" Subject: [idealcopy] Walkinshaw knows his noodles Hope you all saw Andrew W. on "University Challenge", helping Jesus to an overwhelming victory. All those lonely hours spent deciphering obscure Wire lyrics were obviously not at the expense of knowing Laotian tennis stars and afro hairstyles when you see them. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:40:41 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace (LATE reply) In a message dated 10/20/03 2:52:31 PM Central Daylight Time, postlibyan@netzero.com writes: > > it _is_ "just" entertainment. right? i mean -- what the f*ck else could > you it possibly be? what do you mean? music is brian surgery? music produces > food? no -- that makes no sense..... i don't get it.>>>>> for some of us, music is a very spiritual and personal thing....not all music (some of it IS mindless entertainment)...but for some of us, music is travelling without moving... > maybe if i were sitting down and relaxing, but not standing shoulder to > shoulder with a mass of humanity. and the volume -- part of what i like > about live music is that it is actually loud enough to shut off my brain. >>> i guess music has served your purpose well... > > then don't tour. the entire concept of "concert" is defined by Rock. or > Jazz.>>>>> oh really? seems to me that the word/idea/actuality of a "concert" was around long before there was "rock" or "jazz" even in western society...maybe you should do some research.. if you want to break away from that, then stay home. i don't mind, > really. but if i am going out of my house to pay money to see somebody " > perform",>>>>> that's what strippers and porn are for... > > somewhat ironic of you to say this on a list devoted to an old fogey rock > band....>>>>>> ahh, i knew you'd say that...HOWEVER, while WIRE are indeed "old" they are most certainly not fogeys...thay are still relevant...they stay ahead of the curve...they always have something exciting and new and different to say.....they are not standing around in spandex and make-up doing high-kicks and singing about rock-n-rolling the night away.... > > hmmm. i have no comeback to this. maybe it isn't the visuality. maybe > it is something else that i cannot put into words. and i am jealous -- i > never got to see David Lee Roth. when did you see him? with Van Halen or > not?>>>>>>> Van Halen opening for Black Sabbath around 1977 maybe... > > > never even heard of Derek Jarman.>>>>> ahh... i hate films though....>>>>> ahh...kind of odd for someone who is so into visual stimulation and can't feel his "humaness" without it.....i don't care that much for them either..but every now and again something worthwhile pops up > > it is a celebration of the human ability to move!>>>>> and i still contend that can be done without all the theatrics > > i have only seen Rappers on YO MTV Cribs.....>>>>> in case you haven't noticed or have been living under a rock, rap music (at least in the USA) has now replaced rock music as the most popular form of music with the masses > when i go to shows, most rock fans are guys. >>>>> you poor fellow....you must be going to death metal shows....the girls at "rock" concerts are one of the few visual stimulants to even bother with.... does that mean they are all > secretly closeted and lusting after Ben Gibbard? i don't think so. >>>> you don't? you really should do more research...there is a lot more homoerotic imagery in rock/pop than you can shake a stick at... i mean, > sure a few probably are, but i think it is more about transporting the > individual out fo the dreariness of their lives. let's face it -- most of us > live a monotonous existence, and a rock star up there on stage shaking it can > allow us, for a brief moment, to imagine that we can have that much fun. ( > and it does look fun!)>>>>>> no...most of them just look like idiots....and i find lots of other ways to have fun on my own...i do not need to live vicariously through some bloated rock star...the need to emulate my "idols" died when i left my teens... >> > > and you don't feel akward/confused? i mean -- there they are, ON STAGE, in > a place where my vision is supposed to be focuse by the design of the room. > and i look and i see ... Oval moving his mouse around. Authechre sitting in > chairs smoking ciagarettes and chatting with each other. uh....>>>>>> um no.....example: i would trade ANY concert experience in my life to have been at the Gilbert/Lewis/Mills MZUI: Waterloo Gallery exhibition.....and a lot of it was audience interactive.....which is to say that the audience played a part in making the sounds for the installation...... > << because there is nothing like being engulfed by SOUND...i could never > play music at home loud enough to FEEL things that actually vibrate my body, > mind, and soul.... >> > > maybe you just need a better stereo!>>>>>> you can't be serious as to claim that any home stereo could match the sound system at a concert.....and besides, even if i had that fantastic of a sound system, i live in an apartment building and respect the peace of my neighbors (for the most part) > > << so, dumb little things like waving and smiling get you off at a show and > make you feel "connected"??? >> > > well, at least it made it look like they both knew that people were there > and were having a good time.>>>>>> so as long as the gestures there (even if they are fake) everything is peachy with you? > if that is the case then i am selling all my Autechre CDs! i thought that > they were a couple of people who made interesting tones on a computer. silly > me....>>>>>> well, anyone can attach a simple meaning to something > if they are only doing live shows to fill an expectation to be something > they don't want to be, then they need to have the cojones to stand up to the > label and say "sorry, i don't tour!" >>>>> (wincing at the word "cojones") and lose their contract and thus their chosen living? stop being pussies and get on with it!>>>>> yes....entertain me! entertain me damn you! it's sad that's all we Americans strive for is to be entertained....like it's our right!..like some fat lazy slob royalty with chicken grease running down our chins....entertain me you slaves! you here for my entertainment! > > << should they? are you having them around for tea? >> > > maybe. well, coffee, because i am American.... but the same thing...>>>> me too...but i hate coffee....i prefer a good cinnamon tea... RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:52:38 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Hip Priest Congregation / Endless Carnivals In a message dated 10/20/03 10:49:48 AM, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: >19.10 Jello Biafra - Manchester Life Cafe this a spoken word deal, or music? - -paul c.d. p.s. 153 emails in my box today...so which one of you thought about posting something but backed off?! www.mp3.com/winteracademy ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V6 #313 *******************************