From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #306 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, October 15 2003 Volume 06 : Number 306 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Re:Clapham Grand [HowardJSpencer@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re:Clapham Grand [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] don't worry bout the government -> BSP and REM on Later ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] futureheads/xtc (was:don't worry bout the government) ["] [idealcopy] Re: [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: [Andrew Walkingshaw ] [idealcopy] Wire vid on Brainwashed [Andrew Walkingshaw ] RE: [idealcopy] Re: [Paul Pietromonaco ] RE: [idealcopy] don't worry bout the government ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] R.E.M. Atlanta show [Ari Britt ] [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] BSP [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide [Ari Britt ] [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] BSP [Andrew Walkingshaw ] [idealcopy] RE: YES?????!!!!! ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] BSP ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] BSP [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] BSP [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] don't worry bout BSP ["Tim" ] [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace ["Tim" ] Re: [idealcopy] don't worry bout BSP [Ari Britt > I was there too. Heard the Basildon result as I was coming back through Waterloo. Spent some time kicking a wall, which didn't make me feel much better. The Wir performance was very dark and ominous, appropriately enough. I remember the guy I went with saying "I hope they have happy home lives" after they finished - again, quite prescient as I believe EGL, at least, was having a bad time personally at that point. I've asked this before and forgottent the answer, but who were the last band on that night? Singer, dressed in a white boiler suit, squirted KY jelly over front row. Charming. I thought they were rubbish. I think Honi Soit means To him/to them or to each, though my medieval French isn't great. That sounds like a good find. Didn't mean to suggest that I thought the US ought to shred its constitution when I called the electoral college system "archaic". There's a big difference between "archaic" and "old". You're lucky to have a written constitution - more than we over here have. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 05:16:28 -0400 From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re:Clapham Grand In a message dated 10/15/2003 5:10:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, HowardJSpencer writes: > I've asked this before and forgottent the answer, but who were the last band > on that night? Singer, dressed in a white boiler suit, > squirted KY jelly over > front row. Charming. I thought they were rubbish. /////that was the stretcheads. p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:35:45 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] don't worry bout the government -> BSP and REM on Later >they just need to drop losin my religion > Jools introduced REM singing Losing My Religion. Apparently not, Paul ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:10:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [none] Some conspiracy theories are well worth supporting but this is frankly rubbish. The explanation as to why the building collapsed the way it did makes perfect sense to me, once the construction of the building is explained. Mark Then explain to me Mark,if you will,why the third tower THAT WASN'T EVEN HIT also collapsed...........Ari The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 12:22:43 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] futureheads/xtc (was:don't worry bout the government) > >> nigel is, of course, utterly irresistible, though to my mind it sounds > like nothing else in their catalogue).<< > > Mainly because it's a Colin Moulding song.... > > Mark As were, to be fair, some of my other fave XTC singles.... Grass, Ball & Chain, and best of all - 'Nigel' apart obviously - Life Begins At The Hop (which IIRC was their 1st post-BA single?) But to show there's no favouritism here, Partridge's Statue of Liberty is next on ; ) Keith np kidney bingoes ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:58:27 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: > Then explain to me Mark,if you will,why the third tower THAT WASN'T EVEN > HIT also collapsed........... Wasn't aware there were any other "towers" on the WTC site. And I've been there, and stood on the roof. I'd guess the collapsing towers probably caused an effect similar to large, localised earthquakes and that literally shook a neighbouring building to its foundations, causing structural damage and a collapse. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:04:03 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 10:58:27AM -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > > Then explain to me Mark,if you will,why the third tower THAT WASN'T EVEN > > HIT also collapsed........... > > Wasn't aware there were any other "towers" on the WTC site. And I've been > there, and stood on the roof. I'd guess the collapsing towers probably caused an > effect similar to large, localised earthquakes and that literally shook a > neighbouring building to its foundations, causing structural damage and a > collapse. > > Mark I doubt flying debris and masonry belting into the other buildings did much good either, or the site-wide fire (most of the contents of the building caught fire), and so forth and so on. It was a horrific crime; not much we can say will change that. - - Andrew - -- home - email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ work - email: adw27@esc.cam.ac.uk http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ radio: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ (10pm Fri) http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ "/Peep/". 'Yes?' "More cooookiessssss..." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:05:43 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: [idealcopy] Wire vid on Brainwashed I had a chance to watch this last night. Highly recommended, not least for the live version of modern-Pink-Flag (single release! single release!), but also for a lot of commentary from the three more talkative members of the band. I was particularly interested by the "Wire don't do entertainment" comment; I think that might be part of their appeal, at least to me, in that so much of what Wire do is open to endless (re-)interpretation - and I suspect that's entirely different. - - Andrew (how many dead or alive?) - -- email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ DJ, CUR1350 - http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ blog: http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ "The Random Walk", 10pm Fridays | "... and now I couldn't sleep!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 10:55:38 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [idealcopy] RE: > Some conspiracy theories are well worth supporting but this > is frankly > rubbish. The explanation as to why the building collapsed the way it > did makes > perfect sense to me, once the construction of the building is > explained. > > Mark > Then explain to me Mark,if you will,why the third tower THAT > WASN'T EVEN HIT also collapsed...........Ari Not to continue this discussion beyond reasonable length, but http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html has some of what you're looking for. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 11:28:32 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: > > > Then explain to me Mark,if you will,why the third tower > THAT WASN'T EVEN > > > HIT also collapsed........... > > > > I'd guess the collapsing > towers probably caused an > > effect similar to large, localised earthquakes and that > literally shook a > > neighbouring building to its foundations, causing > structural damage and a > > collapse. > > > I doubt flying debris and masonry belting into the other buildings > did much good either, or the site-wide fire (most of the contents > of the building caught fire), and so forth and so on. > Also, the gallons of diesel fuel stored in WTC 7 didn't help either. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0111290236nov29.story Many of these questions will be answered when NIST http://wtc.nist.gov/ issues its final report. An interim report is here: http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/MediaUpdate%20_FINAL_ProgressReport051303.pdf (Sorry - I'm avoiding some meetings right now, hence all of the computer time. (^_^)) Cheers, Paul P.S. Darn it - as I was typing this up they found me. Gotta go! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:52:58 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] don't worry bout the government Although I'm about to see BSP live for the fourth time and was an early espouser of them I'm not sure they've truly delivered musically for me. But their greatness lies in their image and their ideas. Bands this funny and innovative don't come around too often (although I can think of another...). Selected highlights: The Newsletters - written by Old Sarge with tremendous wit. The live stage decoration The constant references to nature in their image and writing - very uncommon for rock bands The touring ideas - playing the Scilly Isles and the great proposal to tour the South Coast by boat, fetching up on beaches. It may never happen but neither did Kraftwerk's proposal to send robots to do a simultaneous world tour in one evening and that was a great idea too. The product available - this tour has free Kendal Mint Cake to the first 200 at each gig. The decision to individually label each of 1,000 vinyl copies of remember me with the names of British Coastal features was inspired. The bands they surround themselves with - old English folkies The Copper Family and Jeffrey Lewis for a start. There's so much going on here - more power to them! Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Keith Astbury I almost picked this album up the other day, cos I've been interested in BSP (heard the odd track on free cd's, all the rapturous praise on these pages), but I got that cheap Domino comp and - apologies to Paul R here - the new Bowie cd instead. And I think it's pretty neat myself. But back to BSP... The point I'm making is that the single is rather ordinary, not what I expected at all. Hence my question about it being representative, cos I respect you guys tastes! Honest, guv!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:55:11 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re:Clapham Grand - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of HowardJSpencer@aol.com The Wir performance was very dark and ominous, appropriately enough. I remember the guy I went with saying "I hope they have happy home lives" after they finished - again, quite prescient as I believe EGL, at least, was having a bad time personally at that point. - ------------- Interesting - I laughed like a drain for most of the night. I remember being very, very happy (rather like last year's Brighton gig). Another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:27:54 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP > >>Although I'm about to see BSP live for the fourth time and was an early > espouser of them I'm not sure they've truly delivered musically for me. > But their greatness lies in their image and their ideas. Bands this > funny and innovative don't come around too often (although I can think > of another...). << A lot of BSP's appeal for me is in the fact that they occupy the "Wirespace" of the current crop of bands - intelligence, ideas, non-standard subject matter, unrockness, etc. (An aside - the band that occupied the "Wirespace" of Britpop was the Auteurs). Have BSP delivered musically? They've delivered a spot-on debut album, correctly sequenced, appropriately packaged. And they've delivered a solid, if flawed, run of singles (Childhood Memories is weak, and reissuing Remember Me is a triumph of marketing over material - at least it's got them on Later). They're sporadically brilliant live - the improvised soundtrack to Baraka at the ICA last year was extraordinarily good, though they seemed a bit lost in a larger venue (Shepherds Bush Empire). I haven't bought a ticket for the sold-out ULU gig as I've also seen 'em 3 times this year - though I could be persuaded if someone has a spare ;-) (Aside #2 - I'm seeing Karl Bartos out of Kraftwerk at ULU two days later - you wait 10 years for a decent gig at ULU and you get two in a week!) > > >>Selected highlights: > > The Newsletters - written by Old Sarge with tremendous wit. << A true joy. Old Sarge is the elder brother of Yan & Hamilton, I think. Someone fitting that description was manning the fantastic merchandise stall at BSP's 93ft East gig earlier in the year). > >>The live stage decoration << There's a shop over the road from me that sells plastic decoy birds, should they require a source ;-) > >>The constant references to nature in their image and writing - very > uncommon for rock bands<< So Solid Crew = Urban BSP = Rural. Most rural band since The Dancing Did. Discuss. > >>The touring ideas - playing the Scilly Isles and the great proposal to > tour the South Coast by boat, fetching up on beaches. It may never > happen but neither did Kraftwerk's proposal to send robots to do a > simultaneous world tour in one evening and that was a great idea too.<< Perhaps Wire might like to consider a simultaneous tour of London in one venue before the year is out? ;-) > >>The product available - this tour has free Kendal Mint Cake to the first > 200 at each gig. The decision to individually label each of 1,000 vinyl > copies of remember me with the names of British Coastal features was > inspired.<< Mine is Shag Rock. Most pleasing. > >>The bands they surround themselves with - old English folkies The Copper > Family and Jeffrey Lewis for a start. > There's so much going on here - more power to them!<< > > Couldn't agree more. The only real downside is the fact that, like many > other interesting new bands (Interpol, Liars, Rapture etc), they do sound like > lots bits of old bands glued together. Guess that's a fact of life, and > probably a reflection of the fact that I'm an old fart with thousands of records and > therefore notice these things. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 20:52:24 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] R.E.M. Atlanta show > >Raises the question of just when does an encore become a second set? > > i was thinkin the same thing. could have been longer than wire's entire gig! Workshy gitts ; ) Staying on topic, Commercial Suicide is reviewed in this months Q should anyone want to check it out. Three stars out of five I think... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:13:02 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] BSP Wirespace - a useful phrase, Mark. I've been trying to think who occupied the Wirespace of progressive rock but - intelligence, ideas, non-standard subject matter, unrockness - they all did! Yes, Genesis, VdGG. - is it not time you sought them out? Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] A lot of BSP's appeal for me is in the fact that they occupy the "Wirespace" of the current crop of bands - intelligence, ideas, non-standard subject matter, unrockness, etc. (An aside - the band that occupied the "Wirespace" of Britpop was the Auteurs). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:38:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] R.E.M. Atlanta show Keith Astbury wrote: Staying on topic, Commercial Suicide is reviewed in this months Q should anyone want to check it out. Three stars out of five I think... WHAT TOOK THEM SO LONG???????.....aRI The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:43:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] YES?????!!!!! Keith Knight wrote:Wirespace - a useful phrase, Mark. I've been trying to think who occupied the Wirespace of progressive rock but - intelligence, ideas, non-standard subject matter, unrockness - they all did! Yes, Genesis, VdGG. - is it not time you sought them out? Another the Keith - --Early (pre-shit head taking over from Peter Gabriel on vocals)maybe,but YES???????they never 'did a thing' for me..........NOT in the same league as Wire,nowhere near imo Ari The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 22:17:58 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide Staying on topic, Commercial Suicide is reviewed in this months Q should anyone want to check it out. Three stars out of five I think... WHAT TOOK THEM SO LONG???????.....aRI Twas in the re-issue section! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:02:24 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP > >>Wirespace - a useful phrase, Mark. I've been trying to think who > occupied the Wirespace of progressive rock but - intelligence, ideas, > non-standard subject matter, unrockness - they all did! Yes, Genesis, > VdGG. - is it not time you sought them out?<< Not at all.Genesis, VdGG et al were as much "prog" as the Vibrators or 999 were "punk". They occupied the progspace. The Wirespace is occupied by bands that are simultaneously within and outside the "movement" du jour. Is there a "prog" band that fits the bill? Or was the movement so stylistically oppressive as to preculde anything that wasn't about goat-smelling dwarves in 13/27 time? I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany, especially Kraftwerk. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:24:38 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP Mark B: - > Genesis, VdGG et al were as much "prog" as the Vibrators or 999 > were "punk". The Vibrators and 999 are such easy targets. Regardless of whether they were punk or whether they were just some old-ish geezers who jumped on the bandwagon, nothing will ever convince me that Judy Says and Nasty Nasty weren't great rushes of adrenaline. > I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany Or Canterbury ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:29:37 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP > >>The Vibrators and 999 are such easy targets. Regardless of whether they > were > punk or whether they were just some old-ish geezers who jumped on the > bandwagon, nothing will ever convince me that Judy Says and Nasty Nasty > weren't great rushes of adrenaline.<< Not actually knocking them - just saying they were solidly in the middle of the "movement", in much the same way as, say, Shed Seven were solid, mid-table Britpop, or the Merseybeats were solid, mid-table, er, Merseybeat! > >>I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany > > Or Canterbury ; )<< A gentler form of prog I suppose. Less of the flashy heptatonic scales and wibbling mono-synth solos. Not sure about the goat/dwarf content though. It's a scene that has really pased me by. Same old prejudices ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:38:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide Keith Astbury wrote: Staying on topic, Commercial Suicide is reviewed in this months Q should anyone want to check it out. Three stars out of five I think... WHAT TOOK THEM SO LONG???????.....aRI Twas in the re-issue section! are there any 'bonus trax',and/or was it remixed to give a 'better' sound?(in other words is it worth re-buying) Ari The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 15:49:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Mark sed.... >I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany, especially Kraftwerk.Mark< ........................ Agreed,there was also,about that time.that 'other' electonic music band who's name escapes me,I used to have so much of their stuff back then too,I saw them live once and FELL ASLEEP! they had an album titled Ricochet.......(must be gettin 'old) help me out here......Ari The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 23:55:15 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide are there any 'bonus trax',and/or was it remixed to give a 'better' = sound?(in other words is it worth re-buying) Ari see link. http://www.posteverything.com/artists/release.php?id=3D3588 [demime 0.97c-p1 removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of PostEverything Colin Newman Commercial Suicide.url] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:51:05 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Commercial Suicide > are there any 'bonus trax',and/or was it remixed to give a 'better' > sound?(in other words is it worth re-buying) It contains the Interview 12in. Other than that it's the same, except for a cardboard slipcase. Ten famous Belgians present and correct. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 18:58:18 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Mark sed.... > Agreed,there was also,about that time.that 'other' electonic music band > who's name escapes me,I used to have so much of their stuff back then too,I saw > them live once and FELL ASLEEP! they had an album titled Ricochet.......(must > be gettin 'old) help me out here...... Tangerine Dream. They'd make the most wired coke-addled speedfreak (say your average premiership footballer on a night out) feel like 40 winks... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 16:00:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] OT:Fwd: Wilco Related... Wilco World wrote:To: threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com From: Wilco World Subject: Wilco Related... Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 13:56:18 -0700 greetings, a quick update from Wilco HQ on a few projects we think you ought to know about. First, The new record from John Stirratt's band The Autumn Defense, "Circles", is out this week in Europe (Cooking Vinyl) and next in the USA/Canada (Arena Rock). Info is available at: www.theautumndefense.com. Second, there's a benefit record out in November called The Amos House Volume 3, featuring an unreleased Wilco track ("Let Me Come Home") as well as music from Califone, Super Furry Animals, Spoon, Archer Prewitt, and others. Information about the organization and the cd is available at: www.wishingtreereccords.com Additionally, On Fillmore (one of Glenn Kotche's groups) play at the Empty Bottle, Chicago on Thursday, October 23. Wilco, as most of you are probably aware, play two acoustic gigs as part of the Bridge Benefit Concert at Shoreline in Mountain View, California on October 25 & 26. Information about this concert is at: www.bridgeschool.org/events.html. If you cannot read this email, click here: http://wilcoworld.net/mailers/1003.html Update your profile or unsubscribe here. Delivered by Topica Email Publisher The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:22:13 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] BSP Hmm, while Yes were very much progspace - along with Floyd, Heep, Tull - Genesis certainly seemed very odd in this company especially around Nursery Cryme time (almost BSP-like with their presentation and Englishness) while VdGG certainly fit your 'inside and outside' description below. Most of their songs were in 13/27 time but the lyrical content tended to be about the fragility of the ego rather than dwarves. I'd still argue that prog was mostly intelligent, certainly had ideas, definitely had non-standard subject matter and was defiantly un-rocky! But, in this instance the output was somewhat different to what came later!. If you're looking for an alternative to the mainstream pre-punk, I'd merge your and Keith's suggestions and offer up the Virgin lot - takes in some Krautrock (Faust and Ari's forgotten lot) and the best of the Canterbury scene (Wyatt, Hatfields, Henry Cow). Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: MarkBursa@aol.com [mailto:MarkBursa@aol.com] Sent: 15 October 2003 23:02 To: steeleknight@lineone.net; keith.astbury10@virgin.net; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP >>Wirespace - a useful phrase, Mark. I've been trying to think who occupied the Wirespace of progressive rock but - intelligence, ideas, non-standard subject matter, unrockness - they all did! Yes, Genesis, VdGG. - is it not time you sought them out?<< Not at all.Genesis, VdGG et al were as much "prog" as the Vibrators or 999 were "punk". They occupied the progspace. The Wirespace is occupied by bands that are simultaneously within and outside the "movement" du jour. Is there a "prog" band that fits the bill? Or was the movement so stylistically oppressive as to preculde anything that wasn't about goat-smelling dwarves in 13/27 time? I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany, especially Kraftwerk. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:26:58 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP On Wed, Oct 15, 2003 at 06:02:24PM -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany, > especially Kraftwerk. Intriguing stuff; I'm currently viewing electronica as a kind of post-punk to acid-house/hardkore/"modern-dance-music"'s punk, so I wonder who fills the Wirespace there. I'm going to put a case for Boards of Canada, Four Tet, Ulrich Schnauss... Akatombo? Not heard that record yet. (It's interesting that all the Wirespace bands Mark's mentioned, I adore.) - - Andrew - -- home - email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ work - email: adw27@esc.cam.ac.uk http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ radio: http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ (10pm Fri) http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ "/Peep/". 'Yes?' "More cooookiessssss..." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:29:42 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: [idealcopy] RE: YES?????!!!!! Suddenly hip due to being espoused by Stuart Murdoch of Belle and Sebastian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/arts/homeentertainment/story/0,12830,1059381,0 0.html The apotheosis of prog's excesses but I can somehow split my brain while listening to them now. Part of me thinks it's very silly but another part simultaneously still thinks that bits of Close to the Edge and Fragile are really quite lovely. But I suspect you had to be there at the time. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: Ari Britt [mailto:threeduggaduggas@yahoo.com] Sent: 15 October 2003 21:43 To: Keith Knight; MarkBursa@aol.com; keith.astbury10@virgin.net; idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: YES?????!!!!! Keith Knight wrote: Wirespace - a useful phrase, Mark. I've been trying to think who occupied the Wirespace of progressive rock but - intelligence, ideas, non-standard subject matter, unrockness - they all did! Yes, Genesis, VdGG. - is it not time you sought them out? Another the Keith - --Early (pre-shit head taking over from Peter Gabriel on vocals)maybe,but YES???????they never 'did a thing' for me..........NOT in the same league as Wire,nowhere near imo Ari _____ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:39:33 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP > > >>The Vibrators and 999 are such easy targets. > Not actually knocking them - just saying they were solidly in the middle of > the "movement", in much the same way as, say, Shed Seven were solid, mid-table > Britpop, or the Merseybeats were solid, mid-table, er, Merseybeat! Or Blackfoot Sue to glam. Or Echo & the Bunnymen to post-punk ; ) (Ooh! Controversial!) > > >>I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany > > > > Or Canterbury ; )<< > > A gentler form of prog I suppose. Less of the flashy heptatonic scales and > wibbling mono-synth solos. But I suspect that the bands there at least had something between their ears. And Robert Wyatt's version of I'm A Believer had vocal 'inflections' that would not have been entirely out of place on Pink Flag! I'd just written... in fact, had Wyatt been in Kraftwerk... ; ) when I read AT Keith's mail re merging them.... >Not sure about the goat/dwarf content though. It's a > scene that has really pased me by. Same old prejudices ;-) Mark. This goat business is starting to turn into something of an obsession you know! K. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:39:23 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP In a message dated 10/15/03 6:28:12 PM Central Daylight Time, andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk writes: > >I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany, > >especially Kraftwerk. > > Intriguing stuff; I'm currently viewing electronica as a kind of post-punk > to acid-house/hardkore/"modern-dance-music"'s punk, so I wonder who fills > the Wirespace there. I'm going to put a case for Boards of Canada, Four > Tet, Ulrich Schnauss... Akatombo? Not heard that record yet. > > Derrick May Juan Atkins Kevin Saunderson Eddie Fowlkes Blake Baxter L'il Louis Pierre/Phuture Larry Heard/Mr. Fingers/Fingers Inc. Autechre Boards of Canada Arovane As One Black Dog B-12 Plaid Aphex Twin/AFX/Caustic Window/Polygon Window Squarepusher Bandulu Pete Namlook Jochem Paap/Speedy J CJ Bolland U-Ziq Seefeel Future Sound of London Beaumont Hannant Luke Slater Luke Vibert/Wagon Christ/Plug Andy Weatherall/Sabres of Paradise/Two Lone Swordsmen Richie Hawtin/Plastikman/FUSE and on and on RL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:42:14 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] BSP In a message dated 10/15/03 6:36:32 PM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > And Robert Wyatt's version of I'm A Believer had vocal 'inflections' that > would not have been entirely out of place on Pink Flag! > > over on the Coil list there was a recent thread about the beauty that is Wyatt's "Sea Song" (from Rock Bottom) ....top tune..top album RL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 00:49:41 +0100 From: "Tim" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] don't worry bout BSP Sorry chaps but I just don't get BSP, and not for want of trying! Great name for a band and love those weird press photos with the woodland creatures, but was really disappointed to hear the album. They are built up to be this quirky band that live in a lighthouse or something, so how come their music is so utterly ordinary? (your suspicions are correct Keith!) BSP sound like one of those long forgotten mid 80s indie bands that Virgin would regularly snap up, get them to do a few kids TV shows, get a favourable review in Record Mirror and a support slot with Then Jerico........only to be dropped after their expensive, overproduced LP stiffed at number 68. > But back to BSP... > > The point I'm making is that the single is rather ordinary, not what I > expected at all. Hence my question about it being representative, cos I > respect you guys tastes! > > Honest, guv!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 01:34:18 +0100 From: "Tim" Subject: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace > > >I'd say the pre-punk Wirespace was occupied by bands from Germany, > > >especially Kraftwerk. > > > > Intriguing stuff; I'm currently viewing electronica as a kind of post-punk > > to acid-house/hardkore/"modern-dance-music"'s punk, so I wonder who fills > > the Wirespace there. I'm going to put a case for Boards of Canada, Four > > Tet, Ulrich Schnauss... Akatombo? Not heard that record yet. I Don't 'get' that Four Tet album at all, despite massive critical acclaim. I'm alone in this cos everyone seems to love it. My bandmate rang me at 8am one Saturday morning to tell me how great it was! Just sounds like a bit clichid TripHop to me. I was pleased to hear Tony Wilson agreeing with me on 6Music the other day though.... Ulrich Schnauss LP is very good, although ultimately to enter Wirespace I think the artist needs to have some kind of attention to presentation and image or how the items are presented. I've seen him live and he rather demystified his celestial, cosmic music by prodding away at his laptop as if he was a bloke from the IT department come to fix it. Board of Canada certainly have created the required 'enigma' (aloof, elusive, clever..the knack of making you eagerly await their all-too-rare releases...and ultimately the make very good records)...they certainly do orbit Wirespace....... Autechre definitely deserve a place in Wirespace....they make very good records that can't really be contained in such a narrow definition as electronica, they are very much outside that box....for me their records stand up to any rock music and seem to have a lot longer shelf-life than yer average Laptop-bedroom boys. Their stuff from the early 90s still sounds fresh which is more than can be said for a lot of 10 year old electronic stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 17:39:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] don't worry bout BSP Tim wrote:Sorry chaps but I just don't get BSP, and not for want of trying! Great name for a band and love those weird press photos with the woodland creatures, but was really disappointed to hear the album. They are built up to be this quirky band that live in a lighthouse or something, so how come their music is so utterly ordinary? (your suspicions are correct Keith!) BSP sound like one of those long forgotten mid 80s indie bands that Virgin would regularly snap up, get them to do a few kids TV shows, get a favourable review in Record Mirror and a support slot with Then Jerico........only to be dropped after their expensive, overproduced LP stiffed at number 68. Couldn't agree with you more Tim,Keith.A or Robert sent me a BSP c.d and try as I might I didn't get it (them) at all.............but then if we all liked the same stuff.............how boring would that be? Ari The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 19:59:34 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] bowie on wyatt (was: BSP) fwiw, bowie -- in his confessions of a vinyl junkie in the new "music issue" of vanity fair -- lists wyatt's shipbuilding 12" ("heartbreaking -- reduces strong men to blubbering girlies" ... personally, i'd've accorded that honor to the scissor fits' i don't want to work for british airways, but that's just me) among his 25 favorite records. others -- vu & nico (of course), last poets' s/t, the fabulous little richard, reich's music for 18 musicians, john lee hooker's tupelo blues, koerner ray & glover's blues rags & hollers, james browns' apollo theatre presents, linton kwesi johnson's forces of victory, the red flowers of tachai blossoms everywhere comp, daevid allen's banana moon, jacques brel is alive & well & living in paris, tom dissevelt's the electrosoniks, the incredible string band's the 5000 spirits (which band he mentions as "a summer-festival 'must' in the '60s, myself & t rexer marc bolan both bieng huge fans"), 10 songs by tucker zimmerman, gundala janowitz' 4 last songs (strauss), glenn branca's the ascension, syd's the madcap laughs, george crumb's black angels, toots & the maytals' funky kingston, harry partch's delusion of the fury, mingus' oh yeah, stravinsky's le sacre du printemps, the fugs' s/t, & florence foster jenkins' the glory (????) of the human voice. dan >In a message dated 10/15/03 6:36:32 PM Central Daylight Time, >keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > >> And Robert Wyatt's version of I'm A Believer had vocal 'inflections' that >> would not have been entirely out of place on Pink Flag! >> >> > >over on the Coil list there was a recent thread about the beauty that is >Wyatt's "Sea Song" (from Rock Bottom) ....top tune..top album > >RL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:00:29 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wirespace (tm) > >>Derrick May > Juan Atkins > Luke Vibert/Wagon Christ/Plug > Andy Weatherall/Sabres of Paradise/Two Lone Swordsmen > Richie Hawtin/Plastikman/FUSE > > and on and on<< > You're missing the point, Robert. That's just a who's who of modern > electronica. None of these bands would occupy the Wirespace (tm). Show me the band > that sits outside and inside the "scene". Silo perhaps? "Electronic", yet > really a rock band? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:04:10 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Electronic Wirespace > >>I've seen him live and he rather demystified his celestial, cosmic music > by prodding away at his laptop as if he was a bloke from the IT department > come to fix it.<< And therein lies the problem. As for Four Tet, I'd never heard them until last week, when I successfully identified them by watching about 10 seconds of a video on MTV2's 120 minutes (having missed the bit at the start where they tell you who the artist is). It sounded like Autechre lite, and I said "I bet that's Four Tet". Nice enough, but hardly ground breaking. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2003 21:19:13 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Glam Wirespace > >>Or Blackfoot Sue to glam. << Were they glam? Looked and sounded like an old rock band hopping on the bandwagon. Who was in the glam Wirespace? Roxy I suppose. Sparks? >>Or Echo &the Bunnymen to post-punk ; ) (Ooh! Controversial!)<< Wouldn't disagree, though the drum machine phase was original enough.Wouldn't have been so durable though. Was post-punk a scene in itself or an extension of punk? Certainly intelligence was central to all the bands. In some ways Post-punk was one big Wirespace, so its Wirespace would have been an Anti-wirespace occupied by really moronic bands that nevertheless sounded massively original. Wrong era, but Happy Mondays would have fitted the bill perfectly. > >>And Robert Wyatt's version of I'm A Believer had vocal 'inflections' that > would not have been entirely out of place on Pink Flag!<< Wyatt has never tried to sound American. Big part of his appeal. Wonderful cover version too, and it got a man in a wheelchair on TOTP in 1974... > >>I'd just written... > > in fact, had Wyatt been in Kraftwerk... ; ) > > when I read AT Keith's mail re merging them....<< Would certainly have been a culture clash - as 'human' a voice as you'll find alongside the Mensch-Machine.... > >>>Not sure about the goat/dwarf content though. It's a > >scene that has really pased me by. Same old prejudices ;-) > > Mark. This goat business is starting to turn into something of an obsession > you know!<< It's the smell... Mark ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V6 #306 *******************************