From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #281 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, September 22 2003 Volume 06 : Number 281 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] NME RIP ["Keith Knight" ] RE: [idealcopy] NME RIP ["Keith Knight" ] RE: [idealcopy] NME RIP ["Keith Knight" ] [idealcopy] Lost In Translation soundtrack (Kevin Shields is back) ["Jaso] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP [Paul Pietromonaco ] Re: [idealcopy] Lost In Translation soundtrack (Kevin Shields is back) [P] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] footnote [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] footnote [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] footnote [Andrew Walkingshaw ] Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] THE HARING ORDERS [kevin eden ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:06:45 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] NME RIP Except I'd want to be the folk, prog and (alt) country correspondent! Reading later posts, this has really taken off! The problem with a physical zine, as I see it, in addition to the reasonable points just made by Andrew about start up capital etc, is that we are largely split over two continents so distribution and content becomes an issue. Most mags are single-country focused, although as this list proves the music isn't constrained by boundaries. In the UK I'd look to Careless Talk Costs Lives as an example. Now about 9 issues old, on a two month schedule and to be found in newsagents and record shops (e.g. HMV) but ploughing its own furrow (of new rock, but more subterranean than NME) and without making any obvious concessions. The fact that HMV are prepared to stock it is interesting - - I think they recognize that there's a gap in the market. We've identified another one. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of MarkBursa@aol.com I wouldn't like to take it on as a weekly, though the lack of a serious rival is unhealthy. I do believe there is room in the publishing sphere for a hipper version of Mojo, without all the folk, prog, country and beatles features, centred round punk (and its ancestors/descendents) rather than the 60s. Now THAT we could do. Idealcopy Magazine. Like it! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:13:01 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] NME RIP PS - tomorrow night I am faced with a choice; and evening of tuuvan throat singing (Churcilgan headlining) or Calexico. Any suggestions? - ---------------------- Yeah, get yourself down to Calexico. If they do their version of 'Alone Again Or' it's worth the price of admission alone. Another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 12:24:32 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] NME RIP Agree with pretty much all you say below Andrew. It's interesting how, in that Ian MacDonald interview link I posted earlier in the week, he said that the NME in the early 70s was the first (UK?) mag to recognize that Rock/pop had a history - look how far its gone the other way. I think Word magazine does something of what you say, especially in the long-format reviews, the refusal to review stuff it doesn't like or to be comprehensive and its willingness to let the writer shine through (this was one of the things I liked best about the 70s NME - the fact that the writers all had distinctive personalities on the page). But Word of course is published by people in the heart of publishing - David Hepworth and Mark Ellen who set up Q. But Word is much better than that magazine ever was. Another the Keith - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Walkingshaw Sent: 20 September 2003 15:14 My kind of vision for a magazine is; * uncompromising intelligence is nothing to be ashamed of * if it's not interesting, ignore it; enthusiasm is contagious, as long as it's well-founded. The biggest problem of "The Wire" for me is its po-facedness; I feel there's a happy medium between an intellectual, cerebral approach and the raging pretension it displays. * presentation matters; "The Wire" rather than "NME" - proper typography, cutting-edge graphical design- this is not "mainstream" per se, it's never going to sell 100k copies so there's no point in pitching at the lowest common denominator. You may as well aim for the highest common denominator and trust that people will go with you * don't be afraid to use context, recommend old records, run historical articles; one of the NME's biggest problems is a complete disregard for historical and social context in music, without which pop music is meaningless * opinion is interesting; the personality of the writer is something which should be exploited, not hidden * long-format reviews; even thousands of words if it reads well. One of the worst features of Q/NME/the mainstream press is trying to review a record in 100 words; can't be done * on the same note, NO SCORES OUT OF TEN. Quality can't be mapped to a linear scale like that, and a good review makes it entirely obvious who a record will appeal to anyway * no kickbacks, no advertorials, no PR fluff; no freebies for the sake of it. "The Wire Tapper" is a classic example of the giveaway done right. I'm loath to print this in public, in case someone else goes and does it; but what the hell, it's what I'd want to read and be involved with. Please feel free to insult me for my pretension now. I'm a 22-year-old chemical physicist, I know nothing of the actual media industry; but I feel there's a real gap in the market here, and I'd love to be involved in producing something that I could be genuinely proud of. - - Andrew (and we'd need to get Wire, Miles', and Mute's permission to use "Ideal Copy" as a name; so we'd probably need something else, too.) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:48:52 +0000 From: "Jason Rogers" Subject: [idealcopy] Lost In Translation soundtrack (Kevin Shields is back) Not sure how many Kevin Shields fans are here, but... On Friday, I went to see Lost In Translation here and was glad to hear My Bloody Valentine's "Sometimes" and The Jesus And Mary Chain's "Just Like Honey" in the film. I saw the soundtrack for sale yesterday and noticed some new Kevin Shields material on the soundtrack as well. Here's the tracklist: 1. Intro/Tokyo 2. City Girl - Kevin Shields 3. Fantino - Sebastian Tellier 4. Tommib - Squarepusher 5. Girls - Death In Vegas 6. Goodbye - Kevin Shields 7. Too Young - Phoenix 8. Kaze Wo Atsumete - Happy End 9. On The Subway - Brian Reitzell & Roger J Manning Jr 10. Ikebana - Kevin Shields 11. Sometimes - My Bloody Valentine 12. Alone In Kyoto - Air 13. Shibuya - Brian Reitzell & Roger J Manning Jr 14. Are You Awake? - Kevin Shields 15. Just Like Honey - The Jesus & Mary Chain "City Girl" is the only actual song by Kevin Shields; the rest are shorter instrumentals (but still quite good). "City Girl" is a great track and reminiscent of his work with My Bloody Valentine. The Death In Vegas track is impressive as well. The entire album is impressive and has an overall ambient feel to it. ...the movie is great as well, by the way. Jason _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC. Get a FREE computer virus scan online from McAfee. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:33:59 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP > >>Reading later posts, this has really taken off! The problem with a > physical zine, as I see it, in addition to the reasonable points just > made by Andrew about start up capital etc, is that we are largely split > over two continents so distribution and content becomes an issue. Most > mags are single-country focused, although as this list proves the music > isn't constrained by boundaries.<< Nice to see a seed taking root in my absence over the past few days! I'll declare an interest here - magazine publishing is what I do for a living - with some success at times, including a Periodical Publishers Association award a decade ago (Bursa - the entrepreneur years is another story, but it does involve developing a company from a standing start to a #3 million turnover, etc) The caveat is that I've not been involved in consumer publishing. My experience is in busiuness publishing, which has a completely different set of economics, especially regarding distribution. You build a mailing list of who you want to send the mag to (free of charge generally), then charge advertisers top whack on the grounds you're hitting the people thay want to hit... however the production process is much the same - and I have most of the technology (Quark Xpress, etc) here to produce magazines. Despite the Internet, magazine publishing is actually growing - the trick is to hit the niches. Personally I've felt there was still a gap for a "post-punk Mojo" type of publication. Mojo was a response to the need for a more anoraky Q, aimed at the raft of ageing rock fans (30somethings in the early 90s) who didn't "get" dance music but were repurchasing their 60s-70s vinyl collections on CD. So pack it with 60s-70s stuff, with a bit of tentative new music (eg Britpop, Strokes etc) and you have a workable formula. Good mag too, though a lot of what it writes about isn't necessarily what I want to read. Today there is an untapped market of "80s indie kids" (Smiths, Creation Recs, Pixies etc fans) who are now the same age as the old folkies & proggers who latched on to Mojo 10 years ago. A lot of these people are still "current" musically, especially with "new rock" already well into the 80s (eg BRMC=JAMC). Get the mix right and you'll pull the inquisitive younger audience (disgruntled NME readers?) along with you. Basically the frmula to copy is Mojo's, but the bands to feature would be different; less mainstream; more current. No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling Stones. Or folk. How do you do it? Magazine publishing is not cheap. It's draining on cash-flow in particular. However technology has made magazine production a lot easier, removing much of the repro stages from the production process. Trouble with music mags in the UK is the titles are concentrated in EMAP and IPC. Nobody wants to take them on. The market is strewn with rubbish failures too - Vox, Select and Haymarket's one-issue wonder Encore (shite title, shite content, Q wannabe run by a load of middle-aged australian motoring hacks, I kid you not). As for alternatives, the Careless Talk Costs Lives thing is interesting (more for the way they do it than the mag itself) whereas a largely subscriber-based publication like The Wire survives pretty well as an independent. In the US Big Takeover is perhaps a good example, again largely subs-based. The US "newstrade" is somewhat different to that in the UK or Europe though. There are many significant obstacles to producing a "global" (or even pan-European) consumer title, and the concept is really not a runner. The title would have to be "centred" somewhere (almost certainly the UK) though international distribution of specialist-interest titles is possible (in the US via book stores such as Border's, for example, or through the likes of HMV and Virgin) Other alternative plans (eg website-only, or traditional fanzine) have cost advantages, but there are plenty of people on the net offering similar services (brainwashed, pitchfork etc). And you'll never make it pay its way. As for fanzines, you'd simply be lost in the noise. So to make "Idelcopy Magazine" work you'd need either to pitch the idea to an existing publisher, or find independent backing and do it yourself. It's an idea with much going for it, but it would need considerable amounts of work to make it happen, especially in terms of market research with potential readers, advertisers etc. Firming up a concept is relatively cheap though, and I'll certainly be giving the idea some house room in the next few weeks. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 11:37:50 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP > But Word of course is published by people in the heart of > publishing - David Hepworth and Mark Ellen who set up Q. But Word is > much better than that magazine ever was. > The problem with Word (and all other Hepworth/Ellen ventures) is that it cannot abandon the mainstream. Hence for every issue with something of interest (eg Morrissey on the cover) you get one with something I just don't give a toss about (eg Dido). It is, as you say, beautifully written and nicely produced, but it lacks focus. Q's heyday was under Danny Kelly, Tom Hibbert & co, when it was genuinely funny and irreverent. Now it's like a trade paper for Sony marketing executives. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 18:47:52 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP > Basically the frmula to copy is Mojo's, but the bands to feature would be > different; less mainstream; more current. No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling > Stones. Or folk. No folk? Keith? > The market is strewn with rubbish failures > too - Vox, Select Can Vox ("the monthly nme"!) & Select really be considered failures? They carried on for yrs (particularly Select). > As for fanzines, you'd simply be lost in the noise. But it'd be a realistic way of starting off. I might be pessimistic here, but I really can't see us getting a proper magazine off the ground, no matter how good an idea it is (I'm with the up-dated Mojo idea myself), or how keen I'd be to review the singles! It all comes down to "Who's gonna put the money up!" Some fanzines have grown into proper mags. OK they're few and far between, but it has happened. > So to make "Idelcopy Magazine" work you'd need either to pitch the idea to an > existing publisher, or find independent backing and do it yourself. > > It's an idea with much going for it, but it would need considerable amounts > of work to make it happen, especially in terms of market research with > potential readers, advertisers etc. And we'd know how to reach the target audience. Inform lists similar to this, surely. >Q's heyday was under Danny Kelly, Tom Hibbert & co, when it was genuinely >funny and irreverent. Agreed. Hibberts 'Who the hell?' article was so good I bought the book and read them again! Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:57:36 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP >>PS - tomorrow night I am faced with a choice; and >>evening of tuuvan throat singing (Churcilgan >>headlining) or Calexico. Any suggestions? > >Yeah, get yourself down to Calexico. If they do their version >of 'Alone Again Or' it's worth the price of admission alone. I don't know - I've really enjoyed the Tuvan throat singing I've heard. I even have an autographed CD by the Tuvans. (^_^) Cheers, Paul P.S. I've never listened to Calexico, either, so I'm probably biased here....(^_^) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:58:54 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Lost In Translation soundtrack (Kevin Shields is back) >Not sure how many Kevin Shields fans are here, but... > >On Friday, I went to see Lost In Translation here .... 8< snip >8 There's an interview with Kevin here: http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1431220.html where he talks about the soundtrack, and the demise of My Bloody Valentine. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:44:11 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP In a message dated 9/21/03 4:35:15 PM GMT Daylight Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > Mojo was a response to the need for a more anoraky Q, aimed at the raft of > ageing rock fans (30somethings in the early 90s) who didn't "get" dance > music > but were repurchasing their 60s-70s vinyl collections on CD. So pack it with > 60s-70s stuff, with a bit of tentative new music (eg Britpop, Strokes etc) > and > you have a workable formula. Good mag too, though a lot of what it writes > about > isn't necessarily what I want to read. /////i think mojo is the best of a pretty bad bunch. but it's changed recently , less old farts and much much more on stuff like strokes (dullest article of this century so far?) and BRMC. i thought maybe it was trying to go to where Q was 5-10 years ago , leaving word to pick up the "worthy but rather dull" mantle mojo had originally. god knows what Q is trying to achieve , i wouldn't have thought most robbie/missee elliot/madonna type fans actually wanted an in depth music mag at all? but uncut is also aiming at the "old Q" market......its not bad and you get a cd every month. i could live without so much movie stuff , but it has some good pieces. > > Today there is an untapped market of "80s indie kids" (Smiths, Creation > Recs, > Pixies etc fans) who are now the same age as the old folkies &proggers who > latched on to Mojo 10 years ago. A lot of these people are still "current" > musically, especially with "new rock" already well into the 80s (eg > BRMC=JAMC). > Get the mix right and you'll pull the inquisitive younger audience > (disgruntled > NME readers?) along with you. //////aren't uncut/mojo trying this now? also i see a glossymonthly music mag launched free with the observer now , lots of competition....... > > Basically the frmula to copy is Mojo's, but the bands to feature would be > different; less mainstream; more current. No Elvis, Beatles or the Rolling > Stones. Or folk. /////great idea , but hard to barge out the opposition. these things like "x-ray" and "jack" seem to fail dismally. record collector could have been turned into something decent , but in their makeover they seem to have thrown out the good bits rather than the bad. but i'll write yo something if u like. can i choose? :-) p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:35:15 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP > >>/////i think mojo is the best of a pretty bad bunch. but it's changed > recently , less old farts and much much more on stuff like strokes (dullest > article > of this century so far?)<< Absolutely tedious. Dull young men with very little to say. >> and BRMC. i thought maybe it was trying to go to where > Q was 5-10 years > ago , leaving word to pick up the "worthy but rather dull" mantle mojo had > originally.<< Mojo can't resist the old staples though. At least one Beatles-related cover story per year, plus assorted features on Stones, Dylan etc. There's only so much you need to know here. Bit like Uncut's Byrds feature, which was a nice precis of Johnny Rogan's book for the neophyte, but contained nothing the average Byrds fan didn't know. Word I've bough twice. Enjoyed the 'old curmudgeons' issue with Moz & Luke Haines, but recently bought the one with Dido on the cover to read on a plane. Dull. >> god knows what Q is trying to achieve , i wouldn't have thought most robbie/missee > elliot/madonna type fans actually wanted an in depth music mag at all? << It's pretty much an ego-wank for the people in the music business. Same way that 70% of Autocar's readers are people involved in the car business in some way (factory workers, dealers, mechanics etc). >>but uncut is also aiming at the "old Q" > market......its not bad and you > get a cd every month. i could live without so much movie stuff , but it has > some good pieces.>> Probably my favourite of the monthlies these days, given the hit-or-miss nature of Mojo's main features. > >Today there is an untapped market of "80s indie kids" (Smiths, Creation > >Recs, > >Pixies etc fans) who are now the same age as the old folkies &proggers who > >latched on to Mojo 10 years ago. A lot of these people are still "current" > >musically, especially with "new rock" already well into the 80s (eg > >BRMC=JAMC). > >Get the mix right and you'll pull the inquisitive younger audience > >(disgruntled > >NME readers?) along with you. >>//////aren't uncut/mojo trying this now?<< To some extent. But they're also trying to serve an established readership. >> also i see a glossymonthly music mag > > launched free with the observer now , lots of competition.......<< > > Just bought this today, but not read it yet. > >>/////great idea , but hard to barge out the opposition. these things like > > "x-ray" and "jack" seem to fail dismally.<< Jack is a James Brown production, therefore has an unmistakeable Lad's Mag aura. Bought it once - too general to be honest. X-Ray I've passed on so far. Likewise Bang. Largely aimed at covering new acts, so you get a mag full of dull interviews like Mojo's Strokes one. >> record collector could have been turned > into something decent , but in > their makeover they seem to have thrown out the good bits rather than the bad.< > < Looks better, but has certainly lost something. >>> but i'll write yo something if u like. can i choose? :-) p<< Soomething about carts and horses please ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:46:40 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP > >>No folk? Keith?<< Mojo's terrain. >>> Can Vox ("the monthly nme"!) &Select really be considered failures? They > carried on for yrs (particularly Select).<< But had about 3 relaunches each and never sold well. Select was meant to be a "younger Q", bit like Q is now! Vox's last relaunch with Jerry "Everett 'The Legend' True" Thackray (1) was spectacularly bad, with an editorial about wanting to push edgy young talent to the fore - and putting Sting on the cover. > >>But it'd be a realistic way of starting off. I might be pessimistic here, > but I really can't see us getting a proper magazine off the ground, no > matter how good an idea it is (I'm with the up-dated Mojo idea myself), or > how keen I'd be to review the singles! It all comes down to "Who's gonna put > the money up!"<< Nobody said it would be easy. But honestly, getting this lot to do a fanzine would be just as hard. Still has to be printed, designed etc. And my days of selling 'zines at gigs are long gone ;-) > >>Some fanzines have grown into proper mags. OK they're few and far > between, > but it has happened.<< When Saturday Comes is the obvious one. But only after a lot of grass-roots level slog. > >>And we'd know how to reach the target audience. Inform lists similar to > this, surely.<< Helpful for sure, but no guarantee of buyers. But 'viral marketing' would be a cost-effective way of launching. > >>Q's heyday was under Danny Kelly, Tom Hibbert &co, when it was genuinely > >funny and irreverent. > > Agreed. Hibberts 'Who the hell?' article was so good I bought the book and > read them again!<< Dropping tha feature was the beginning of the end. Even the Q charts have gone now. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:00:43 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] footnote > >>But had about 3 relaunches each and never sold well. Select was meant to > be a > "younger Q", bit like Q is now! Vox's last relaunch with Jerry "Everett 'The > > Legend' True" Thackray (1) was spectacularly bad, with an editorial about > wanting to push edgy young talent to the fore - and putting Sting on the > cover.<< > > (1) - I'm indebted to Viz for creating a taxonomy for multiple-nicknamed > people, ie Graham "John "Jilted John" Shuttleworth" Fellows > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:12:52 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] footnote In a message dated 9/21/03 10:01:36 PM GMT Daylight Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > >Legend' True" Thackray (1) //////if you want a laugh , go look at everett "not really much of a legend at all" true's autobiography. in the photo section is about 15 photos ; everett and kurt , everett and courtney , everett and mudhoney , everett and eddie vedder .......... a legend in his own lunchtime , i fear. p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 22:25:49 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] footnote On Sun, Sep 21, 2003 at 05:12:52PM -0400, PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote: > //////if you want a laugh , go look at everett "not really much of a > legend at all" true's autobiography. in the photo section is about > 15 photos ; everett and kurt , everett and courtney , everett and > mudhoney , everett and eddie vedder .......... a legend in his own > lunchtime , i fear. I reply merely to coin: "autohagiography". - - A - -- email: andrew@lexical.org.uk http://www.lexical.org.uk/ Earth Sciences, University of Cambridge http://www.esc.cam.ac.uk/ DJ, CUR1350 - http://www.cur1350.co.uk/ blog: http://www.lexical.org.uk/blog/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 23:22:45 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NME RIP > Word I've bough twice. Enjoyed the 'old curmudgeons' issue with Moz & Luke > Haines, but recently bought the one with Dido on the cover to read on a plane. > Dull. I've enjoyed the Nick Cave & Kevin Rowland interviews (and the article Andrew Collins wrote about being a scriptwriter on Eastenders was excellent) > Jack is a James Brown production, therefore has an unmistakeable Lad's Mag > aura. Bought it once - too general to be honest. X-Ray I've passed on so far. > Likewise Bang. Largely aimed at covering new acts, so you get a mag full of dull > interviews like Mojo's Strokes one. I've bought the occasional X-Ray & Bang, and none of it has been as dull as that terrible Strokes article (for which I blame the writer/mag as much as the band. If they didn't say anything intersting, why print 10 pages or whatever of them being dull!) The couple of times I've bought Bang, I've thought the review section pretty good. But Uncut's my fave too (despite their over-fondness for alt. country...) Keith np massive attack - mezzanine ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:07:27 -0700 (PDT) From: kevin eden Subject: [idealcopy] THE HARING ORDERS WMO Central is currently out of stock of The Haring. We are awaiting delivery of stock and all orders will be processed asap. Apologies if you have recently ordered this. WMO will be closed from 24th September to 6th October. ALL orders will be processed on return. Thank you for your patience. kevin eden http://www.wireviews.com/wmo/index.html "dreams that money can buy" Yahoo! 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