From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #260 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Wednesday, September 3 2003 Volume 06 : Number 260 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Coil (was MARS) ["Tim ****" ] [idealcopy] new releases........oh dear [PaulRabjohn@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] new releases........oh dear [RLynn9@aol.com] [idealcopy] [Off Topic] Modern CD Volumes (was Re: Disc rot) [Paul Pietro] [idealcopy] [Off Topic] Hmm.. that's odd [Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Coil (was MARS) Sorry to harp back but as a friend's succinct review of 'Hidden Reverse' book put it - "So, Coil are gay, C93 are looking for a new musical form & Stapleton survives having his dignity still in tact!" - Precisely. Np Cramps - 'new kind of kick' what a song! - ----Original Message Follows---- From: "John Roberts" To: sjgraziano@hotmail.com, MarkBursa@aol.com, RLynn9@aol.com, idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Coil (was MARS) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:05:30 +0000 So am I ok to like Anal Staircase *and* think they talk a load of bobbins? 8-) John http://www.surf.to/ambition >From: "Stephen Graziano" >Reply-To: "Stephen Graziano" >To: , , >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Coil (was MARS) >Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:21:33 -0500 > >I've always considered Coil (whom I enjoy immensely) as a variation on >psychedelic music and this discussion could apply any of the criticisms or >supports of Coil (and their ilk - and please RLynn don't dash off 2 dozen >consecutive stream of consciousness emails to react to my comments - one >thought out considered one carries much more impact) - could also be >applied >to many of the psyche-school of music making as they tend to involve a >voluntary release of the standard paradigm of reality and a certain "buying >into" of the concept in order to carry their effect. In much the same way >do movies carry their clout with the voluntary suspension of disbelief. If >one approaches an artist's work w/ a disposition to suspect their output >based on the cultural/stylistic signals that they send out, then one is >much >less likely to allow oneself to be enveloped by the effect. We all (myself >included) do it - I look at certain artists (who will remained unnamed so >as >not to introduce more XXX is cool you dolt threads) and immediately, even >w/out hearing the music dismiss them as faintly or even overtly ridiculous, >mundane, non-original, clichid, untalented, whatever. One can't >academically argue that any artists that operate on the margins of >commercial success and inherently aesthetically superior to any others, it >only reflects the nature of the relationship between the performers and >their accepting audience (thank you Simon Reynolds) and the shared culture >values and signifiers in that relationship. Many people here at Ideal Copy >like a wide variety of some musics that fall into various indie ghettos and >dislike others. Part of being an active fan of marginal music is also >being >an active dismisser of other acts, whether mainstream or horribly off-base >marginalia. If we are say, fans of Wire, and Wire are not a popular (by >the >standards of mainstream commercial musical marketing) then we are saying >that in some way, our tastes are different, and by implication superior to >that of the mainstream - and we communicate with each other on the >assumption that those other Wire acolytes share to some degree that same >elevated discrimination of artistic excellence. But no to brains, no two >reality maps, no two personal paradigms of aesthetic superiority are >identical and we all at some part diverge. So let's get off >ego-identification driven defense of personal favorites and beyond >mentioning our tastes not get into pointless so and so is cool and if you >don't like them, by some kind of implication my credibility as a connesure >of good music is impinged. >sg >http://www.sourmashusa.com >----- Original Message ----- >From: >To: ; >Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 12:05 PM >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Coil (was MARS) > > > > > >>yeah...how long ago was that....Tibet is all about Jesus and Light > > > now...it's camp theatrics remember?? he was telling a long >story...Satan >being > > > point A ...then the journey to salvation and Jesus being point B....<< > > > > Sounds like 20:20 hindsight to me! > > > > > >>and why can't i make comparisions? are you saying the absurdities of >the > > > "mainstream" are ok and somehow excusable?..and the absurdities of the > > > marginalised are not?...wow, i thought only people here in america >thought that > > > way...<< > > > > You're becoming a master of missing the point! Just asking you to >compare > > like with like. There's little to be gained from comparing Coil to >Reality >TV, > > for example. I was just pointing out my perceived absurdities in Coil, >without > > needing to justify that by citing greater absurdities elsewhere. > > > > Mark _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons - download MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger _________________________________________________________________ Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 09:17:28 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] SEND; 80s Wire >From: "John Roberts" >Subject: RE: [idealcopy] You Can't Leave Mr Marx's Table Now > >I'm really surprised at this reaction. When the new material starting >arriving everyone seemed to be really +ve about it. Now it seems everyone >is really down on it. I can speak only for myself, but I thought the idea was not accepting Send as an "the new Wire album"--that is that this particular collection is THE new Wire album. To me, the songs from R'n'B are from R'n"B, not from SEND, which is 4 new songs surrounded by previously released material. Not expressed well, but it's the best I can do. >MANSCAPE - this has always been my least fave 'proper' Wire LP, though I >probably prefer it to the Wir one. With the benefit of hindsight, I'm actually >pretty glad they split up when they did, because post-IBTABA - which I love - >Wir(e) seemed on the downward trend to me. With the exception of Ideal Copy, I disagreed with everything, pretty much--but we're use to that by now. ;) To me, Manscape was a step in the right direction to their best work of Wire II (both Wir releases). Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 14:11:05 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] new releases........oh dear V/VM The Missing Symphony v/vm CD #10.00 They (v/vm) say: " The Concept: All fifteen Shostakovich symphonies were downloaded digitally into a lap-top computer. The mean average in seconds of every symphony was worked out as being 2842 seconds. Each symphony was either stretched or compressed to that length and then layered on top of each other to create a unique classical piece. The Conclusion: The result is staggering. The worlds first digital classical symphony. The worlds first symphony which cannot be replicated by classical musicians. Intense in its entirety. The result is "The Missing Symphony". We (these) say: Sacrilegious chaos cacophony overload - could be insanity. A mental block of a music not for the timid or squeamish. Possibly pointless in the extreme. V/VM Help Aphex Twin 4.0 v/vm CD #10.00 Two reviews for this one, due to difference of opinion in the these office: review one: They're at it again! Taunting old Aphex with blatent plunderphonic rasberries. Taking 20 of his hits they 'help' Aphex by providing more extreme and radical takes on digital remixing of tracks which are entirely his plus adding familar v/vm sample choices from time to time, also remixing his covers art and taking the piss out of his money making. very irreverant and direct. review two: v/vm decide to 'improve' the twin's back catalogue by digitally mashing them, usually adding some distortion, a bit of multilayering and sometimes chopping them up some more. Sampled choices of other artists make an appearance to add some comment to the proceedings and in particular the fact that Aphex makes money from his records seems a sore point to the v/vm's. the effect is generally to make a mess of the original track and assembling the muddled result. V/VM present It's Fan-Dabi-Dozi! v/vm double CD #10.00 "A compilation on v/vm test records featuring The Krankies, Fast Lady, Sky Foundation, Andy Colorie" (etc. etc.) It is an introduction, a starting point. Frighteningly cringeworthy in parts due to their head scratchingly consistant ability to fetishise the truly, truly, awful. Maybe to be reviews again if we can get past track two... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:26:24 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new releases........oh dear In a message dated 9/2/03 1:12:56 PM Central Daylight Time, PaulRabjohn@aol.com writes: > V/VM > Help Aphex Twin 4.0 > v/vm CD #10.00 > Two reviews for this one, due to difference of opinion in the these office: > > review one: > They're at it again! Taunting old Aphex with blatent plunderphonic > rasberries. Taking 20 > of his hits they 'help' Aphex by providing more extreme and radical takes on > digital > remixing of tracks which are entirely his plus adding familar v/vm sample > choices > from time to time, also remixing his covers art and taking the piss out of > his money > making. very irreverant and direct. > yeah...but V/Vm sucks...i'd much rather listen to any of Aphex Twin's "money making" albums than any of V/Vm's shitty money making albums.. RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 15:26:51 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [idealcopy] [Off Topic] Modern CD Volumes (was Re: Disc rot) > It still sounds great, although it's not as loud as I would > like; New Order should remaster that one. Funny, because the volume > was perfect back in 1988 when I got it...either I'm going deaf or the > volume levels on CD's that old simply don't suffice. Nope - CDs are louder today than they were back then. Yet - the digital format hasn't changed any. It's still the same specification - the same "bits" if you will. So - why are CDs louder? Compression is the answer. In the old days, you would leave the CD audio mixes relatively uncompressed. Also, they had a fear of distortion that would occur if you dare went over 0 dB on the Digital Record Level Meters. So, only the highest peaks were at 0 dB and the average signal level was around -12 dB or so. A few years ago, Apogee and some other companies rediscovered an interesting aural phenomenon which they used in their external A/D converters (the boxes that create the digital signal for CD). Your ears hear the average of sound as volume, not necessarily the peaks. For example, if you have two waveforms, one that has loud peaks with a low average volume, and one that's heavily compressed to have no loud peaks, but a large average volume, you'll hear the compressed one as louder. These A/D converters invented a mode called "Soft Over" where you could pump the signal into the converters, and they would apply large amounts of compression to the audio signal as it started to get near the 0 dB limit of Digital Audio. Basically, an evolved "Peak Limiter", if you're familiar with that term. So, yes, the signals are compressed, but chances are you won't miss the peak at all, and it will sound louder. Also, there is slightly less distortion - as long as you don't go beyond the 0 dB threshold!!! I first noticed this with some Columbia CDs - especially those by Alice In Chains. The Digital Meter on my DAT deck - which lets you see the exact digital signal level when you connect it optically - was no longer moving along like the cassette levels of yore. Instead, it went right to zero and pegged there. However - I could hear no overload distortion - which is what you'd expect. That's when I started looking through my Mix magazines at the Apogee ads, and figured out what they were doing. Now, most CDs are mastered this way. Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:00:57 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: [idealcopy] [Off Topic] Hmm.. that's odd Hi everyone, I actually just sent two messages, but only one showed up. I wonder if I have some offending text in there that's requiring Miles' intervention. Ah well - I'm mainly just testing my e-mail send with this post. Also - I might as well ask the question if anyone knows when "Country On The Click" by the Fall is supposed to be released. (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:29:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Fwd: [idealcopy] [Off Topic] Hmm.. that's odd Paul Pietromonaco wrote: >Hi everyone, I actually just sent two messages, but only one showed up. I wonder if I have some offending text in there that's requiring Miles' intervention. Ah well - I'm mainly just testing my e-mail send with this post. Also - I might as well ask the question if anyone knows when "Country On The Click" by the Fall is supposed to be released. (^_^) Cheers,Paul< does Miles read EVERY post?if so what about when he goes on holiday,what if he broke a leg and landed up in hospital,what if he doesn't 'feel like' reading for a few daze?Miles?Miles speak to me................Ari Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:27:15 -0400 From: Ed Special Subject: [idealcopy] "BACK TO SKOOL" radio collage Apologies if you got this more than once. From midnight to 6 am *E.S.T., STUDIO STUPID will air the annual SPECIAL ED "BACK TO SKOOL" radio collage live on 88.3 WCBN FM Ann Arbor http://www.wcbn.org/listen.html Using vintage instructional/propaganda film soundtracks, instructional records, tapes, sound effects, digital effects processors, tape loops, layers of music, found stuff, miscellaneous, whatnot and other, Ed Special takes us on a proctological excursion through the world of getting an education. Gee willikers, it's like listening to the would through brown colored glasses! * That's midnight in Detroit 5 am in London 6 am in Stockholm, Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels 8 am in Riyadh, Nairobi, Moscow 1 pm in Perth, Hong Kong 3 pm in Melbourne 7 pm in Hawaii 5 pm in Eniwetok 11 am in Dhaka Time Zone conversion: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ http://members.tripod.com/~mark_fitz/timezone.htm Hope you'll be listening, Ed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 19:34:04 -0400 From: Ed Special Subject: [idealcopy] "BACK TO SKOOL" radio collage Apologies if you got this already. From midnight to 6 am *E.S.T., STUDIO STUPID will air the annual SPECIAL ED "BACK TO SKOOL" radio collage live on 88.3 WCBN FM Ann Arbor http://www.wcbn.org/listen.html Using vintage instructional/propaganda film soundtracks, instructional records, tapes, sound effects, digital effects processors, tape loops, layers of music, found stuff, miscellaneous, whatnot and other, Ed Special takes us on a proctological excursion through the world of getting an education. Gee willikers, it's like listening to the would through brown colored glasses! * That's midnight in Detroit 5 am in London 6 am in Stockholm, Paris, Amsterdam, Brussels 8 am in Riyadh, Nairobi, Moscow 1 pm in Perth, Hong Kong 3 pm in Melbourne 7 pm in Hawaii 5 pm in Eniwetok 11 am in Dhaka Time Zone conversion: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/ http://members.tripod.com/~mark_fitz/timezone.htm Hope you'll be listening, Ed ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 16:48:05 -0700 (PDT) From: fernando Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Off Topic] Modern CD Volumes (was Re: Disc rot) Ugh, I am not sure what album from New Order was mentioned, but the latest batch of London re-issues *does* have LowLife softer than the previous versions. Perhaps it was a screwed up, but there is no doubt about it. The amount of hiss is now a bit more prominent... which could be from lack of efficient A/D conversion. It sounds like the compression done is similar to the mu- or A-law done in telephony. If you cannot hear the compression of the peaks, as they do not last long, then you get better resolution for the music that does not deviate much from the average. So, it makes sense that they do this for "pop" records not under the scrutiny of audiophiles. cheers, - -f. - --- Paul Pietromonaco wrote: > > It still sounds great, although it's not as loud as I would > > like; New Order should remaster that one. Funny, because the > volume > was perfect back in 1988 when I got it...either I'm going deaf > or the > > volume levels on CD's that old simply don't suffice. > > Nope - CDs are louder today than they were back then. > > Yet - the digital format hasn't changed any. It's still the same > specification - the same "bits" if you will. > > So - why are CDs louder? > > Compression is the answer. In the old days, you would leave the CD > audio mixes relatively uncompressed. Also, they had a fear of > distortion that would occur if you dare went over 0 dB on the Digital > Record Level Meters. So, only the highest peaks were at 0 dB and the > average signal level was around -12 dB or so. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 00:27:11 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new releases........oh dear In a message dated 9/2/03 4:27:13 PM, RLynn9@aol.com writes: > >yeah...but V/Vm sucks...i'd much rather listen to any of Aphex Twin's "money > >making" albums than any of V/Vm's shitty money making albums.. i'm very interested to hear teh missing symphony. if i had all 15 shostakovich symphonies i could do it myself, but i really enjoy the intensity of his compositions and this sounds worth checking out. - -paul c.d. www.mp3.com/winteracademy ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V6 #260 *******************************