From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V6 #135 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, May 11 2003 Volume 06 : Number 135 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly ["Paul Pietromon] [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times ["Andrew Lumbard" ] Re: [idealcopy] OT - Whistle Test Years: PIL's whiney fx ["White Derek" <] Re: [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly [RLynn9@aol.] Re: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly [RLynn9@aol.] Re: [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times [Anthony Chapman ] Fwd: Re: [idealcopy] Working Methods / Berry Sakharof(continued) [Ari Bri] [idealcopy] adendum (aka correction) [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: NEWMAN! GOTOBED! [Bart van Damme ] RE: [idealcopy] Re: NEWMAN! ["Tim" ] [idealcopy] OT: Fall DVD ["Tim" ] [idealcopy] Vinyl bored A Cover for metro and Crapman Bros. ["Tim" Subject: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly Hi everyone, There's a major write-up for Wire in the latest issue of Entertainment Weekly!!! Sorry - I'm sorta drunk tonight. Too much Pernod, I think! I'll type as faithfully as I can! (^_^) Congrats to all the members of Wire - this is a really good article, and I think they treated you well. (^_^) Without further ado, here it is! Cheers, Paul - -------------------------- History Lesson Wire Education Wire have never had much patience for the past. Though the London quartet's late-'70s albums are among the best punk-related artifacts ever created, the band barely paused to savor the impact of that now-classic output. "We started the '80s with a 'year zero,'" says singer-guitarist Colin Newman. "[We said], 'Hey, let's just play entirely new music.'" The group dispersed in the early '90s, with several members pursuing careers in esoteric dance music. So it comes as a surprise to find Wire happily reunited, performing their '70s songs live, and releasing a new album, Send, made with old-fashioned guitars, bass, and drums. Their timing is excellent: Wire's brittle postpunk style is very much in vogue (see New York's the Liars and Interpol). As a result, recent concerts have hardly been nostalgiafests, especially since many admirers discovered the band long after its heyday, often through covers like R.E.M.'s "Strange" and Minor Threat's "12XU." "Nobody is saying 'You played those songs and it brought back my youth,'" says Newman. "It's more like 'F---ing hell, you were loud!'" Wire's latest incarnation kicked off in 2000 with a "living legends" gig at London's Royal Festival Hall. "Everybody was just in the right space, really," says bassist Graham Lewis. (The band also includes guitarist Bruce Gilbert and drummer Robert "Gotobed" Grey.) Wire took to the road, playing with renewed enthusiasm. Last year, they released two EPs, Read & Burn 01 and 02 (many of those tracks are also on Send). Fans seem pleased with the fresh direction. "People say it's f---ing powerful," says Newman. "I don't know how we do that. Some of it is so simple to play. But it has that energy. It's not a folk group, you know." --- Rob Brunner WHAT TO BUY Pink Flag (1977) An amped-up, pared-down masterpiece: A; Chairs Missing (1978) Another art-punk triumph: A; 154 (1979) Weird keyboards are in full effect: B+; The Ideal Copy (1987) A strange, cerebral take on synth-pop: B+; Send (2003) Assembled on a computer, but something of a return to the style of earlier work: B+ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:49:30 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times Blur - Think Tank review (**) ...'We've Got A File On You' is Wire's 12XU simplified - which is some achievement.... I guess it would be. AndyL ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:38:52 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Moto Drill Bummond >>> 1. Persuaded Echo and The Bunnymen tour the UK by drawing rabbits ears on a >>> map and choosing venues along the lines >> Pretty cool and very "W.S. Burroughs"! > I don't understand any connection with Burroughs here whatsoever. The use of chance <-> randomness brings Burroughs' cutting up technique to mind... That and good ol' W.S.'s fondness of bunnyrabbits of course. > Presumably this vapid stunt was a factor in the bunnymen sacking the flappy > mong very shortly after? Probably yeah. One of his later (last?) projects: http://www.mydeath.net Notice a theme here... the burning/burying of life/cash? That's enough on Drummond now. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:03:39 +0000 From: "White Derek" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - Whistle Test Years: PIL's whiney fx >Bart wrote: > > Ian's right. Poptones was 'weedier' than I remembered too, but still >great > > somehow. That's one fab bassline... > >What I noticed were the bit dated guitar-effects: Cure-like flanger or >something similar Agreed. Top bassline, but: Our resident muso-bore writes: Almost certainly, judging by the sound/noise split, either an Electro-Harmonix Electric Mistress: Think they were the only widely available flanging stomp-boxes at that time for live use: there was an Eventide Clockworks flanger, but it was studio-only EXPENSIVE, and a rackmount. I've still got one of these E-H flangers, and to my ears it does that long sweeping 'swoosh' better than most other flangers, but you gotta set it right, or you wind up with that admittedly 'weedy' sort of whine that P.I.L. were using.AND, they're damn noisy....:-( The only other candidate is an MXR unit :-p Both are better than digital flangers tho'......... _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself with cool emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:10:29 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times > Blur - Think Tank review (**) > ...'We've Got A File On You' is Wire's 12XU simplified - which is some > achievement.... > I guess it would be. > AndyL On every Blur album there seems to be at least one punky Wirey track, doesn't there? Even on Damon's Gorillaz album. Stumbled into Later the other night and saw them doing a very disappointing shitty song (forgot the title, but it wasn't the reviewed one). Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:16:29 +0000 From: "White Derek" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times >From: Bart van Damme >To: wire-news >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times >Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:10:29 +0200 > > > Blur - Think Tank review (**) > > > ...'We've Got A File On You' is Wire's 12XU simplified - which is some > > achievement.... > > > I guess it would be. > > > AndyL > > >On every Blur album there seems to be at least one punky Wirey track, >doesn't there? Even on Damon's Gorillaz album. > >Stumbled into Later the other night and saw them doing a very disappointing >shitty song (forgot the title, but it wasn't the reviewed one). > >Bart Too right, I thought they were dreadful on 'Later'. The stuff I've heard off the album has, in the main, been disappointing dross. I can be objective about it as I'm neither a fan, nor do I particularly detest them, but Mr Albarn is no guitarist, and their focus seems to have gone with G. Coxon. It's pretty lame, and I can see their fanbase jumping ship in droves..... _________________________________________________________________ Surf together with new Shared Browsing http://join.msn.com/?page=features/browse&pgmarket=en-gb&XAPID=74&DI=1059 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:44:39 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FX >> What I noticed were the bit dated guitar-effects: Cure-like flanger or >> something similar > Agreed. Top bassline, but: > Our resident muso-bore writes: > Almost certainly, judging by the sound/noise split, either an > Electro-Harmonix Electric Mistress: Think they were the only widely > available flanging stomp-boxes at that time for live use: there was an > Eventide Clockworks flanger, but it was studio-only EXPENSIVE, and a > rackmount. > I've still got one of these E-H flangers, and to my ears it does that long > sweeping 'swoosh' better than most other flangers, but you gotta set it > right, or you wind up with that admittedly 'weedy' sort of whine that P.I.L. > were using.AND, they're damn noisy....:-( > The only other candidate is an MXR unit :-p > Both are better than digital flangers tho'......... Great, another the gearhead! Though I'm not really one myself you'll find plenty of friends to "play" with on this list White Derek. I dunno about the flangers you describe, but I got one with my 1st guitar and I've allways hated it so much I killed it. It has now seized to be. Lots of otherwize great tunes from those days were ruined by those fucking things. Perhaps next time I will tell you about my loathing of... chorussezzZzzz. Btw, anyone know if Wire ever (ab)used the F.- or the C. word? Can't think of songs in which they have... Boiling (bubble)Boy maybe? Bart (back ON topic in the last sentence - YES!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:01:44 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly In a message dated 5/10/03 3:33:47 AM Central Daylight Time, paulp@wrq.com writes: > The > group dispersed in the early '90s, with several members pursuing careers in > esoteric dance music. > > alright fess up....which one of you guys were doing esoteric dance music? Colin? ....(I suppose one could do the electric slide to Immersion...hmmm) Graham? ....(maybe the reviewer was confusing Hox and Ocsid with Nelly's "Hot in Herre"?) Bruce? ....(now THAT would be a sight! clubbers in their fine fashions grooving to Ab Ovo or better yet, In Esse!) Robert? (of course! it has to be him! how else would he get those vegetable to grow big and strong?!) RL np- Nurse With Wound "Salt Marie Celeste" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:02:32 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly In a message dated 5/10/03 3:33:47 AM Central Daylight Time, paulp@wrq.com writes: > So it comes as a surprise to find Wire happily reunited, performing their > '70s songs live, and releasing a new album, Send, made with old-fashioned > guitars, bass, and drums. but is that all? RL ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:18:59 +0100 From: Anthony Chapman Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire reference in The Times In message , White Derek writes >Too right, I thought they were dreadful on 'Later'. >The stuff I've heard off the album has, in the main, been disappointing >dross. I can be objective about it as I'm neither a fan, nor do I >particularly detest them, but Mr Albarn is no guitarist, and their >focus seems to have gone with G. Coxon. It's pretty lame, and I can >see their fanbase jumping ship in droves..... I doubt it. They're even more loyal than Fall fans, it would seem. Anyway, "Think Tank" has 'last album' written all over it. Release a greatest hits album with a new track on it. Most creative member leaves. Protracted recording sessions with numerous producers / engineers, in the middle of nowhere (to get away from it all, maaaan). I'd be surprised if they made another one. They really don't need to - Damon is obviously minted. Alex acts like he is minted. And Dave the drummer has got his plane - what more could they want? The new album has actually grown on me a lot, but yeah it's totally patchy. We've Got A File On You is kinda fun (I thought the punky bits in that song sounded more like the newer wire stuff - and they bookend a strangely angular Bogshed-esque middle bit). Did anyone else on the list see Wir support Blur at the national club, Kilburn in - um, 91 I guess it was. It was quite amusing to watch the stage through a sea of teenage v-signs aimed at the "old farts" on stage. - -- Anthony Chapman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 10:31:59 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Working Methods / Berry Sakharof In a message dated 5/9/03 1:27:22 PM Central Daylight Time, giluzzz@fastmail.fm writes: > Collaboration is crucial, otherwise you are in danger of creating what I > call 'wank music' ( i'd have to disagree.....i know of plenty music makers who are solo and do not make "wank music" i guess it all depends on what you define as wank music? some of do not play well with others... RL np - Nurse With Wound - Automating Volume 2 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:51:38 +0000 From: "White Derek" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FX:Fear and loathing of Flanging & Choruzzzz re Wire Bart wrote: >Lots of otherwize great tunes from those days were ruined by those fucking >things. Perhaps next time I will tell you about my loathing of... >chorussezzZzzz. > Yeah, I'm not going to disagree there: it seems evryone and his auntie wanted to drown every song in FX like them, but they were also the making of some stuff.. Where, for instance would The Cocteau Twins be without those densely layered Flange/Chorus/ADT/reverb/kitchen sink washes that Guthrie's SO fond of? There are others, but the CT are the first to spring to mind..... >Btw, anyone know if Wire ever (ab)used the F.- or the C. word? Can't think >of songs in which they have... Boiling (bubble)Boy maybe? I can't remember them using flanging/chorus on their guitars, but the bass is given the odd sheen of it (On 154 and Chairs for sure): This can be good if you find post-recording that your instrument wasn't *quite* as well in tune as you thought) and on Colin's 'A-Z' album, I think he flanges the voice in places. Sorry, non gear-heads: I'll go and stand in the corner...........;-) _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail messages direct to your mobile phone http://www.msn.co.uk/msnmobile ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 16:26:01 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly Thanks Paul. >"It's not a folk group, you know." It's certainly not. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 11:31:59 EDT From: Tisbili@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] wire synchronicity #486 Early May brings my favorite weekend of the year....I organize, book bands, buy the microbeers, set up and otherwise run a stage for a local spring festival. a wonderful opportunity to hang around outside on two glorious spring days, drink lots of good beer, and listen to live music (so-so rawk for the most part). After the stage was broken down, gear hauled away, trash collected and clean up was completed, the supplier of the tables and seating materials advised me that there were chairs missing. So there. bIlLe ||||||||||||||| recent faves: Arto Lindsay ~ invoke Dean Wareham and Britta Phillips ~ L'Avventura (a luna-r Low vibe) Tweaker ~ things uncertain ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:07:46 +0100 From: "ian s jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FX:Fear and loathing of Flanging & Choruzzzz re Wire >I can't remember them using flanging/chorus on their guitars, but the bass >is given the odd sheen of it (On 154 and Chairs for sure): bass intro, 'Practice Makes Perfect'...???? i think might have had the 'odd' touch of chorus on it... ;) ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ Stay in touch with absent friends - get MSN Messenger http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:12:45 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FX:Fear and loathing of Flanging & Choruzzzz re Wire >> Lots of otherwize great tunes from those days were ruined by those fucking >> things. Perhaps next time I will tell you about my loathing of... >> chorussezzZzzz. > Yeah, I'm not going to disagree there: it seems evryone and his auntie > wanted to drown every song in FX like them, but they were also the making of > some stuff.. Where, for instance would The Cocteau Twins be without those > densely layered Flange/Chorus/ADT/reverb/kitchen sink washes that Guthrie's > SO fond of? There are others, but the CT are the first to spring to > mind..... How could I forget about CT! And you're right, their use of FX didn't suck at all. Perhaps this is due to the fact that it's almost ALL FX and athmos with them. Good point. >> Btw, anyone know if Wire ever (ab)used the F.- or the C. word? Can't think >> of songs in which they have... Boiling (bubble)Boy maybe? > I can't remember them using flanging/chorus on their guitars, but the bass > is given the odd sheen of it (On 154 and Chairs for sure): This can be good > if you find post-recording that your instrument wasn't *quite* as well in > tune as you thought) and on Colin's 'A-Z' album, I think he flanges the > voice in places. hmm, interesting this. Obviously you know what you're talking about here. Do you have a background in recording/engineering? > Sorry, non gear-heads: I'll go and stand in the corner...........;-) You'd be surprised on how many will appreciate this kind of info White Derek, so please don't feel the need to hold back. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:26:26 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FX:Fear and loathing of Flanging & Choruzzzz re Wire > bass intro, 'Practice Makes Perfect'...???? i think might have had the 'odd' > touch of chorus on it... ;) You're right Ian, that bass is fucking drowning in it, though my guess is there's also "some" reverb going on here. I like how it seems to be in the background that way. (as I believed to have said earlier, the holy diptych Practice & French Film is my favourite opening of any album ever!) Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 18:52:32 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly >> The group dispersed in the early '90s, with several members pursuing careers >> in esoteric dance music. > alright fess up....which one of you guys were doing esoteric dance music? > Colin? ....(I suppose one could do the electric slide to Immersion...hmmm) > Graham? ....(maybe the reviewer was confusing Hox and Ocsid with Nelly's "Hot > in Herre"?) > Bruce? ....(now THAT would be a sight! clubbers in their fine fashions > grooving to Ab Ovo or better yet, In Esse!) Believe me I've tried to dance to In Esse, but kept crashing into the walls. Perhaps "Do You Me? I Did"? though it's hard to label it esoteric. It did get quite a bit of press in it's time. > Robert? (of course! it has to be him! how else would he get those vegetable > to grow big and strong?!) Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:07:33 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Major Wire reference in Entertainment Weekly Me: > Perhaps "Do You Me? I Did"? though it's hard to label it esoteric. It did > get quite a bit of press in it's time. Hmmm, hardly early '90s this... B. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:16:20 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: NEWMAN!/ Brabant >> Then how do you account for... THIS: http://www.trabantclub.nl > When I get back from the toilet, I'll eat my humble pie :-) Er... does that mean what I think it means Glenn?? ;-) Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 13:31:16 -0400 From: Ed Special Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FX:Fear and loathing of Flanging & Choruzzzz re Wire From: Ed Special Date: Sat May 10, 2003 1:21:32 PM America/Detroit To: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] FX On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 09:44 AM, Bart van Damme wrote: > > Btw, anyone know if Wire ever (ab)used the F.- or the C. word? Can't > think > of songs in which they have... Boiling (bubble)Boy maybe? Wir/The First Letter/Naked and Whooping and Such Like... : "Fuck...." - -in the rant of a sampled voice, but I don't think it's the voice of any Wire member. also at the very end of Dome/1/Madmen : a cute bit about "....anybody touching these fucking bags...." - -maybe also a sample...? thanks again Bart for the Mondo Mini Movie http://www.mondomedia.com/ Ed ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:32:07 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Moto Drill Bummond In a message dated 5/10/03 2:36:41 AM, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: >> 1. Persuaded Echo and The Bunnymen tour the UK by drawing rabbits ears >on a >> map and choosing venues along the lines > >Pretty cool and very "W.S. Burroughs"! > >I don't understand any connection with Burroughs here whatsoever. i would guess something to do with chance operations. more john cage or marcel duchamp i guess, but still a funny way to plan a tour either way. - -another the paul www.mp3.com/winteracademy ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:32:58 +0200 From: "giluz" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Working Methods / Berry Sakharof On Sat, 10 May 2003 10:31:59 EDT, RLynn9@aol.com said: > In a message dated 5/9/03 1:27:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > giluzzz@fastmail.fm writes: > > > > Collaboration is crucial, otherwise you are in danger of creating what I > > call 'wank music' ( > > i'd have to disagree.....i know of plenty music makers who are solo and > do > not make "wank music" > > i guess it all depends on what you define as wank music? > > some of do not play well with others... I carefully phrased the sentence and said that it might happen - it doesn't mean that working alone necesserally means that this is what's gonna happen. John Cale's 'Music For a New Society' comes to mind when thinking of an exceptionally good piece of music where the artist preferred to play with himself rather than with others, and there are countless other examples. However, there is always a danger of it becoming a narcisistic experience. I'm quite ideologically opposed to the concept of the romantic artist as a loner who sits in the basement and produces masterpieces on his own. It might be applied to literature or even to classical music but not to popular music. Maybe it's because I myself can't work completely alone - there wasn't a single track that I made (I admit I didn't make too many, though) that didn't have some sort of collaboration at its core or development. There are some very good wank works around, but I think that one of the powers of popular music is in sharing and making a whole that is bigger than its parts. The most banal (but best) example to this is the Beatles - not exceptionally good on their own, the fact that most of the members' solo albums stank was mainly due to the magic they had when playing together. It is no coincidence, I think, that the best solo ventures of any Beatle, Lennon's 'Plastic Ono Band' and 'Imagine' (that is, excluding the title track, of course) had Harrison and Starr playing as well. Of course, just as playing alone doesn't necessarily mean you're a wanker, playing together doesn't always mean the opposite - prog rock bands are a very good example to that, I think. Still, I find that the music I like best, from Can, Faust and Henry Cow through the Fall and Wire, is by bands where collaboration is in the core of making music (and don't start telling me that the Fall is a Mark E Smith thing, 'cause you can't ignore the contributions of the likes of Stephen hanley and Brix Smith). So, not necessarily wankers, those that play alone are in danger of becoming so. giluz www.indymedia.org.il - -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an unladen european swallow ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 17:54:17 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: NEWMAN! In a message dated 5/10/03 6:09:05 AM GMT Daylight Time, Eardrumbuz@aol.com writes: > >Any sightings of "Gilbert!", or even "Gotobed!" ? > /////truly trivial piece of trivia i know :-( some bbc kids tv show , maybe late 70's , about children living in the country. maybe WW2 evacuees? there's a character called mrs gotobed who lives in a place druids bottom. kids find this name immensely funny and run around chanting "gotobed in druids bottom" until the woman chases them off. i suspect i am alone here.......... p ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:00:31 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] F(X)words >> Btw, anyone know if Wire ever (ab)used the F.- or the C. word? Can't >> think of songs in which they have... Boiling (bubble)Boy maybe? > Wir/The First Letter/Naked and Whooping and Such Like... : "Fuck...." > -in the rant of a sampled voice, but I don't think it's the voice of > any Wire member. > also at the very end of Dome/1/Madmen : a cute bit about "....anybody > touching these fucking bags...." > -maybe also a sample...? Hehe... maybe I wrote a bit too crypticly (or better yet: too much), but my remarks about F.- or the C. word concerned my raging against "flangers" and "chorusses" Ed. ;-) Yours would make for a nice topic too though. In which case the earlier mentioned ending of You Can't Leave Now immediately comes to mind. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:04:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Fwd: Re: [idealcopy] Working Methods / Berry Sakharof(continued) I'd have to agree with Giluz here,however we all seem to be forgetting the early Blues masters,they all wrote/played/worked alone and produced exceptional music,it 'was' pop for it's day,but times change,i personally can't think of too many bands that work in isolation,(Yello did of course)(and my friend Keith who is a HUGE Beatles fan sez in the BEGINING even they 'worked in isolation' of each other) and the fact that this latest offing from Wire is just such a disc doesn't deter me from thinking it could have been so much better had they 'worked together together',not together in isolation.Arigiluz wrote:From: "giluz" To: RLynn9@aol.com, uri.b@virgin.net, idealcopy@smoe.org Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 21:32:58 +0200 Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Working Methods / Berry Sakharof On Sat, 10 May 2003 10:31:59 EDT, RLynn9@aol.com said: > In a message dated 5/9/03 1:27:22 PM Central Daylight Time, > giluzzz@fastmail.fm writes: > > > > Collaboration is crucial, otherwise you are in danger of creating what I > > call 'wank music' ( > > i'd have to disagree.....i know of plenty music makers who are solo and > do > not make "wank music" > > i guess it all depends on what you define as wank music? > > some of do not play well with others... I carefully phrased the sentence and said that it might happen - it doesn't mean that working alone necesserally means that this is what's gonna happen. John Cale's 'Music For a New Society' comes to mind when thinking of an exceptionally good piece of music where the artist preferred to play with himself rather than with others, and there are countless other examples. However, there is always a danger of it becoming a narcisistic experience. I'm quite ideologically opposed to the concept of the romantic artist as a loner who sits in the basement and produces masterpieces on his own. It might be applied to literature or even to classical music but not to popular music. Maybe it's because I myself can't work completely alone - there wasn't a single track that I made (I admit I didn't make too many, though) that didn't have some sort of collaboration at its core or development. There are some very good wank works around, but I think that one of the powers of popular music is in sharing and making a whole that is bigger than its parts. The most banal (but best) example to this is the Beatles - not exceptionally good on their own, the fact that most of the members' solo albums stank was mainly due to the magic they had when playing together. It is no coincidence, I think, that the best solo ventures of any Beatle, Lennon's 'Plastic Ono Band' and 'Imagine' (that is, excluding the title track, of course) had Harrison and Starr playing as well. Of course, just as playing alone doesn't necessarily mean you're a wanker, playing together doesn't always mean the opposite - prog rock bands are a very good example to that, I think. Still, I find that the music I like best, from Can, Faust and Henry Cow through the Fall and Wire, is by bands where collaboration is in the core of making music (and don't start telling me that the Fall is a Mark E Smith thing, 'cause you can't ignore the contributions of the likes of Stephen hanley and Brix Smith). So, not necessarily wankers, those that play alone are in danger of becoming so. giluz www.indymedia.org.il - -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Faster than the air-speed velocity of an unladen european swallow The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 15:07:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] adendum (aka correction) Keith sed I misunderstood him,that at was LATER ON that the Beatles worked in isolation............ The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:18:14 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: NEWMAN! GOTOBED! >>> Any sightings of "Gilbert!", or even "Gotobed!" ? > /////truly trivial piece of trivia i know :-( > some bbc kids tv show , maybe late 70's , about children living in the > country. maybe WW2 evacuees? there's a character called mrs gotobed who lives > in a place druids bottom. kids find this name immensely funny and run around > chanting "gotobed in druids bottom" until the woman chases them off. > i suspect i am alone here.......... Never heard of it, but it's called Carrie's War. Jeez, I mean like, don't you guys google? ;-) You search on something like "druids bottom" and along with some hippiedippie pervy sites there's this: > Carrie's War (CtC for children) ISBN 1855493020 > By Nina Bawden. read by Zelah Clarke. In her dreams Carrie is always > running away from Druids Bottom, the house she visited with her brother > as war-time evacuees. What happened to her friends the witch-like Hepzibah > and Johnny Gotobed was her fault. Years later, she returns with her children > to confront the truth. I bet this is where Robert (Grey) got his (great) nick from. I promise... no more mails today! (shite, and it's just turned sunday!) Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 14:38:58 -0800 From: "Magnetic North" Subject: [idealcopy] Later Louder Time and Space LATER Yesterday evening a rock block at later with Holland. They made a compilation DVD called Later Louder I believe, 40 acts. Never knew the White Stripes were on the programm, funny band. And Sonic Youth were in it. Don't know the title anymore. I stopped following Sonic Youth after Daydream Nation. For me it was sounding like pop-music and not interesting for me then. Have picked them up a little again. Like the SYR releases. And the contributions of Jim O Rourke. LOUDER Curious about Bruce his performance at the Why You Never Became A Dancer festival with Russell Haswell and Whitehouse. Haven't noticed someone has been at Conway Hall. (An Essay from Above) TIME Maybe interesting to Bruce, better said Bruce could be interesting for them. Have heard das Kollektiv Zeitkratzer (time scratcher)in a special and they are good. They started once with the idea to play Lou Reed's Metal Machine with acoustic instruments. Someone has written down on paper the music and the 9 musicans did perform the piece. It sounds ridiculous but even Lou likes and supports them, the interviewer told. There are also pieces from Merzbow, John Duncan, Phill Niblock on their list. SPACE. The Tickets for Wire at the Amsterdam Paradiso the 29th of May should be secured now. My latest OK, won't mention it before the 15th JAN J - -------- Einstuerzende Neubauten (www.neubauten.org) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 00:06:25 +0100 From: Anthony Chapman Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: NEWMAN! In message <49.2e3a7153.2beecf09@aol.com>, PaulRabjohn@aol.com writes >some bbc kids tv show , maybe late 70's , about children living in the >country. maybe WW2 evacuees? there's a character called mrs gotobed who >lives in a place druids bottom. kids find this name immensely funny and >run around chanting "gotobed in druids bottom" until the woman chases >them off. > >i suspect i am alone here.......... I used to work with a Jim Gotobed. He insisted his surname was pronounced "gut*o*bey". Weirdo. - -- Anthony Chapman ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 May 2003 19:20:39 -0400 From: Ed Special Subject: Re: [idealcopy] F(X)words On Saturday, May 10, 2003, at 06:00 PM, Bart van Damme wrote: >>> Btw, anyone know if Wire ever (ab)used the F.- or the C. word? Can't >>> think of songs in which they have... Boiling (bubble)Boy maybe? > >> Wir/The First Letter/Naked and Whooping and Such Like... : >> "Fuck...." >> -in the rant of a sampled voice, but I don't think it's the voice of >> any Wire member. > >> also at the very end of Dome/1/Madmen : a cute bit about "....anybody >> touching these fucking bags...." >> -maybe also a sample...? > > > Hehe... maybe I wrote a bit too crypticly (or better yet: too much), > but my > remarks about F.- or the C. word concerned my raging against > "flangers" and > "chorusses" Ed. ;-) Oh. Well. Silly me. All that work for nothin? Good thing I didn't find the C. word. Ed > > Yours would make for a nice topic too though. In which case the earlier > mentioned ending of You Can't Leave Now immediately comes to mind. > > Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 01:59:07 +0100 From: "Tim" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Re: NEWMAN! > On Fri, May 09, 2003 at 07:41:55AM -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > > There's a rich thread to be mined along the lines of "TV shows > in which the > > names of Wire members are exclaimed". > > > > See also Inspector Morse's cries of "Lewis!" to his hapless assistant. > > > > Any sightings of "Gilbert!", or even "Gotobed!" ? > > The Magic Roundabout. (Well, nearly.) I'm sure you can find an example > somewhere in kids' TV :) Ah, there was a character in the kids show 'Stoppit & Tidyup' called 'Go-To-Bed'. He was a skinny, bald guy in a sleeveless t-shirt and played drums in a motorik, minimalist style very much in the vein of Can or Neu. He also had a sideline as an organic farmer. OK thats not true...he was the sleepy one who always wanted to "go to bed". ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 02:09:11 +0100 From: "Tim" Subject: [idealcopy] OT: Fall DVD This comes out on Monday: http://www.cherryred.co.uk/dvd/crdvd30_thefall.htm Cherry Red seem to have aquired the old Factory/Ikon video catalogue. I don't own the original VHS video. Presumably some of you have it... the description sounds great: "This DVD contains two different films showcasing the band during their early Eighties heyday. Perverted By Language is an illuminating insight into Mark E. Smith, see him in the pub, at the football ground and jiving at the Hacienda. The film features both interviews with Mark and promo videos for many of the bands genre bending singles from the early part of their career, including Indie Chart top five singles Totally Wired, The Man Whose Head Expanded and Kicker Conspiracy.Live At Leeds features the band in concert from Leeds University in 1981. Amongst the tracks featured in this excellent performance from the band are live favourites Hip Priest and Prole Life. This DVD is a must for any fan of The Fall! " Is this worth buying? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 03:02:04 +0100 From: "Tim" Subject: [idealcopy] Vinyl bored A Cover for metro and Crapman Bros. Bill hicked about Bill Drummond, and I'd love to know what CP Lee did to Jim O'Rourke but since I am still adhering to a self-imposed ban on aruing with Bill...I'll stick to the bits i agree on.... > > I have A LOT OF USE for > WIRE Live at the Metro I think all of us do..those of us who aren't waiting for the Purists 78RPM version anyway. I think its hilarious that people require a record re-cutting on Vinyl which was made mostly on Colins Apple Mac with Protools...they can usually afford those absurd record players that cost 3 times as much as a CD player and require one to remove the turntable (usually made of plate glass) in order to move the belt onto a spindle to change the speed.... I can't believe you're all getting so stressed about having to wait for Send! You must be used to inconvenience, having to get up and change to side 2 all the time and having to take your record player to bits every time you want to play a 45rpm record. > Newman says a month of mixing went into that gift, which is a > hell of a lot > more impressive than a daft stinky pad in a plastic bag. > > It needs a cover though... It does indeed. > Maybe the Lewiseye and Newmangob from Mark Mcquitty's Flag > Burning photo would > make a good front and back? > > Fergus Kelly's image for 'Malka's Project' would also make a great sleeve. > Fergus seems to have captured a fragment of WIRE aesthetic with > that image. And I wonder if some enterprising Wire fan might take this up and make a downloadable CD cover for Wireviews.com? > An amusing aside about Mark's excellent photos is that they make > the perverse > Chapman crap look way better than it actually was, With the lights glaring, and the dancers caught mid-step...it does indeed. And reminds me strangely of the cover of Document & Eyewitness. In fact I was expecting to be challenged and confronted by Wire that night much the same as they did back then. I was expecting to be showered with entrails and maggots or electrocuted. In the end...Jake and Dinos just tossed something off and basically repeated the same rather boring idea over and over again. But what did they have to work with? No sacred cow or revered artwork like Goya. Pink Flag is a fine album but its one of a trio of classics...and given its many concessions to pogopunk maybe not as timeless and revered as Chairs Missing or 154. I'd like to know what Wire thought of the Chapmans contribution. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 May 2003 09:16:53 +0100 From: Anthony Chapman Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT: Fall DVD In message , Tim writes >Is this worth buying? Absolutely. I've got the old PBL VHS and it's marvellous. - -- Anthony Chapman ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V6 #135 *******************************