From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #392 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, November 21 2002 Volume 05 : Number 392 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] Stronger with a drum machine? [Mark McQuitty ] Re: [idealcopy] Stronger with a drum machine? [Andrew Walkingshaw ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits ["ian.s. jackson" ] [idealcopy] Fwd:OT [Shriekback_Digital_Conspiracy] references [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers [Miles Goosens ] [idealcopy] Wire Lyrics Question [RLynn9@aol.com] [idealcopy] Octipad ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] An Ideal Copy ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] Hippo Critters? ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] Pimping ["Bill Hick" ] RE: [idealcopy] Pimping ["Eric Klaver" ] Re: [idealcopy] Pimping [Miles Goosens ] Re: [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes [Miles Goosens ] Re: [idealcopy] Hippo Critters? [Miles Goosens ] Re: [idealcopy] Octipad [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] 21 May 1990 setlist ["Arzach" ] [idealcopy] 21 May 1990 setlist ["Arzach" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] Fw: Wire and The The [Ari Britt ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 10:21:03 -0000 From: Mark McQuitty Subject: [idealcopy] Stronger with a drum machine? >>> what other bands were actually stronger with a drum >>> machine than a real drummer? I'll go for Cocteau Twins, I think the last couple of albums may have had a live drummer (certainly moved to live drums for gigs anyway). I much preferred them with the old reel to reel spinning away in the background. Which leads on to another thread, how cool does a reel to reel tape look on stage compared to a hard disk/ laptop? I know, I'm stuck in the eighties :) MarkM ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 02:41:13 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Re: It's just possible Paul that you need a really good system to tell the difference,not knowing what you have of course puts me in the dark,but i can USUALY tell differences,but have friends that can't even on my system.........we can't all have golden ears.Ari Paul Ye wrote:And since Nobody Likes The Wire List Administration List, some Wire content of my own: today while at Tower Records on my lunch break, I spied the EMI box of the first three Wire albums, and picked it up. I haven't had a chance to break the shrinkwrap, but I do want to issue a (belated) thanks to all those idealcopyists who took the trouble to explain the sonic differences between the original US CDs on Enigma/Restless and the EMI remasters, especially the detailed explanation from our redoubtable Paul P. Wait a minute... I have both versions of the three cd's (Restless Retro and the EMI). Did I hear that right? If there is a difference in quality I missed it. Can someone explain this or point me to a date where I can look up the archives???? Thank you. paulye154 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 11:03:06 +0000 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Stronger with a drum machine? On Thu, Nov 21, 2002 at 10:21:03AM -0000, Mark McQuitty wrote: [ This post isn't as coherent as I'd like, but I don't have the time right now to keep editing it; I need to go do some work. - - Andrew ] > >>> what other bands were actually stronger with a drum > >>> machine than a real drummer? > > I'll go for Cocteau Twins, I think the last couple of albums may have had a > live drummer (certainly moved to live drums for gigs anyway). I much > preferred them with the old reel to reel spinning away in the background. > > Which leads on to another thread, how cool does a reel to reel tape look on > stage compared to a hard disk/ laptop? I know, I'm stuck in the eighties :) I don't know, I think there's something of a real cultural/generational difference here. I've never known popular music *without* programmed percussion, essentially never without sampling, and certainly not without lossless editing and pitch/tempo-shifting. It's pretty much axiomatic that one can't trust anything one sees or hears via any form of the media to be an accurate representation of reality; this is so ingrained into me, and my peer group, these days (if one was born in the '80s (which I was), digital processing was ubiquitous by the time one was between five and ten years old, both for sound and visuals..) As *such*, I regard all popular music, and I think most of my peers do, as being inherently synthetic, an artifice rather than a record of a performance - regardless of its status when it was recorded. This probably enhances our impression of the retrospective output of some bands. Even though in the 60s, just as much (probably more) studio magic was going on, a large part of the original punk was just as retrogressive in its attitudes to recording etc. as the more tiresome parts of Britpop was in the '90s. (Chronologically speaking, Britpop was a generation's punk rock; that's disturbing enough, frankly.). Wire, of course, were one of the first bands to take the punk ethos and use it within the studio machine: to make punk-inflected music using the studio as an instrument. When I go to a concert these days, I expect to see samplers, drum machines, racks of effects, laptop computers etc on stage: they, to me, are just as valid musical instruments as any other, regardless of the genre the band in question are working in. The key thing is that I find it easy to be utterly blase about this: there's no "shock of the new", it's just... expected, really. An example would be the abject horror some Radiohead fans displayed when they heard "Idioteque" and "Everything in its Right Place" live at Glasgow Green (this was before "Kid A" came out): most of the teenagers and early-20s people in the audience loved it, but it seemed that the thirty-year-olds were standing around, looking confused, and waiting for them to play "The Bends" (which is just as processed and digital: just much less up-front about it.) - - Andrew - -- "Days of the conflicts you've been in; Traces of conscience you don't want to hear..." - - Rival Schools, "Used for Glue" ('United by Fate') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 04:06:44 -0800 (PST) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits - --- Eardrumbuz@aol.com wrote:... > or robert fripp's criteria for any drummer upon > reforming king crimson before > discipline...something to the effect of "keep time, > don't play any fills" interestingly enough at the most recent chicago show robert played fills [2 if i counted properly - my attention to detail is not so sharp as others] Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 04:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Technology Marches On [Stage] - --- Andrew Walkingshaw wrote: > I don't know, I think there's something of a real > cultural/generational > difference here. I've never known popular music > *without* programmed > percussion, essentially never without sampling, and > certainly not without > lossless editing and pitch/tempo-shifting. Andrew - thanks for some input in an area I can only theorize [generationally]. Your cooments clarify some of my points from a discussion with a co-worker last week where he be-moaned the dearth of beloved 'garage bands'. My reply was they were now one or two people with headphones [and possibly decks and a mic] in a bedroom or a basement somewhere. Actually my query was related to personal experience and very specific to drummers [esp in a live context]. On the plus side, drum machines seldom drop a beat, on the minus side, they can't react and adjeust when someone else does. i recall being impressed seeing the fall [late brix period in chicago] drop a beat and it was indistinguishable whose mistake it was. they were that tight. technology has not developed to the that level of interaction. yet. i *did* pick up a plastic robot dog which responds to 18 distince voice commands for a mere $7 last week, so maybe this entire discussion will be irrelevant in a couple years. Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 04:35:36 -0800 (PST) From: rayographique Subject: [idealcopy] [OT] The Mixerman Diaries For those of you who have every wondered about the recording studio process... http://www.prosoundweb.com/recording/mm/week1/mm.php Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 07:57:54 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits >>or robert fripp's criteria for any drummer upon reforming king crimson before discipline...something to the effect of "keep time, don't play any fills" << ...don't do anything original that might overshadow my tedious fretwank noodling... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:07:27 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > >>i agree, and it sure didn't hurt cocteau twins any.<< Cocteaus started with a little drum machine called a Soundmaster SR88. I know cos I had one too. It was programmable, and had eight rhythm patterns, two of which were 3/4 time, which accounts for the CTs' propensity to lapse into 3/4. It also meant their early sets were precisely 8 songs long :-) >>with them i also liked > the look on stage of the band with a reel to reel > instead of a drummer. then there was big black! totally intense with just > the three guitars. -paul c.d.<< > > A band I really wish I'd seen live. Agreed though - never thought Rapeman > (Albini + drums) came close in intensity. > > Bands that were great eitrher with or without - New Order (seamless > transitions from drum songs to non-drum songs like Blue Monday), and > Cabaret Voltaire, who started without, used a live drummer from 81 to 84 > and then, once drum machine technology improved, went back to a drum > machine, without much compromise to the overall effect Having said that, > the 3-piece line-up with Alan Fish on drums circa Crackdown is probably my > favourite CV period. Tremendous live, better than the Chris Watson line-up > IMO. Though my favourite Cabs album is Red Mecca... > > As for the Bunnymen, I suspect the drum machine line-up would have soon run out of ideas. Can't imagine they would have made Ocean Rain without Pete. I saw one of the first gigs they did as a 4-piece (Liverpool Pickwicks, early 1980) and it was monumentally loud. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:58:53 -0000 From: "Norm Fasey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits LOL!! Norm - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > >>or robert fripp's criteria for any drummer upon reforming king crimson > before > discipline...something to the effect of "keep time, don't play any fills" << > > ...don't do anything original that might overshadow my tedious fretwank > noodling... > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:25:56 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: drummers >>Robert's quote was something along the lines of "I resent >>Bill interfering with the tempo". >>I think that's the key here. It's not that Robert doesn't like complex >>>rhythms - Jamie Muir was one hell of a percussionist on Lark's Tongues >>>in Aspic. It's just that Robert needs the tempo to stay steady to >>>allow him to play his complex guitar figures. Not to mention that 80s Crimson didn't exactly stay in 4/4. Bruford commented at the time that Robert Fripp doesn't need a drummer to keep time for him, perhaps showing that he didn't understand what Fripp was saying. As Bruford became more and more the jazz drummer he is today, Fripp heard things that he simply didn't fit with his compositions. At least I THINK that was the problem. When rehearsing for the Sylvian-Fripp tour, drummer Pat Mastelotto, who has since replaced Bruford in Crimson, played through a silent section. RF: Pat, what are you doing? PM: Keeping time. RF: That won't be necessary, but if you have something musical to add feel free. (Quotes inexact) One thing that sets Fripp apart from many musicians of his caliber is that the music comes first, not showing your chops off non-stop (a possible answer for those who are somewhat surprised by the popularity of Crimson on a Wire list, BTW). Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:42:52 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers << One thing that sets Fripp apart from many musicians of his caliber is that the music comes first, not showing your chops off non-stop (a possible answer for those who are somewhat surprised by the popularity of Crimson on a Wire list, BTW). >> To me it sounds absolutely the opposite. Technical, technical, technical. Noodle Noodle Noodle. No passion, no soul. I've tried, believe me. I've d/l'd entire King Crimson albums and like most Prog, it leaves me cold. I'd say the KC 'popularity' on Idealcopy seems heavily biased to the US. Most of the Brits don't get it and would probably prefer to listen to the other KC. The one with the Sunshine Band. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 13:58:18 EST From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers In a message dated 21/11/2002 18:45:04 GMT Standard Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > I'd say the KC 'popularity' on Idealcopy seems heavily biased to the US. > Most > of the Brits don't get it and would probably prefer to listen to the other > KC. The one with the Sunshine Band. > > Mark > Don't mean to cause trouble but I have to disagree here.If anything Mark I would suggest it might be an age thing rather than a US v Brit thing.I 've always liked KC & Fripp & the various offshoots.I was heavily influenced by them as a teenager & while still being sweet on them,am not so enamoured with the later material. The power of Larks Tongues In aspic Part 2 live will live with me forever.Solo Frippertronics is incredible. I hope I'm wrong & that the younger IC'ers say "yeah,we like them too".But it's personal taste.FWIW I can't understand the acclaim The Happy Mondays received.Hardly liked a thing by them.......Ducks down quick. chris ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:54:52 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers Chris, << Don't mean to cause trouble but I have to disagree here.If anything Mark I would suggest it might be an age thing rather than a US v Brit thing.<< Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we roughly the same age, (I was born 28/10/60) give or take a week or so. Or is that Keith?? >>I 've always liked KC & Fripp & the various offshoots.I was heavily influenced by them as a teenager & while still being sweet on them,am not so enamoured with the later material. The power of Larks Tongues In aspic Part 2 live will live with me forever.Solo Frippertronics is incredible.<< I think it's down to whether you 'got' prog or not.... whether or not you migrated from buying TRex and Bowie singles to buying albums in 75/76. >> I hope I'm wrong & that the younger IC'ers say "yeah,we like them too".But it's personal taste.<< Perhaps they'll tell us!! >>FWIW I can't understand the acclaim The Happy Mondays received.Hardly liked a thing by them.......Ducks down quick. >> Enormously influential, but I'm the shuffling 'baggy beat' that the HMs and Stone Roses brought in has been a curse on (mainly UK) music that only now we're seeing a move away from, with edgier rhythms like wot we had in t'post-punk rock wars. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 20:25:41 +0000 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits >..and on the subject of drummerless bands, anyone up for The 3 Johns ? oh yes...only dug out 'World By Storm' last week and had a blast on the headphones. prompted by the BBC programme 'True Spies' (with reference to the 84/85 Miners Strike), the LP contains one of the saddest lines ever..'as The Redskins say, 'the Miners are getting organised'...' ah well, we (they) were dreamers, i suppose... lets see if The Fire Service can do any better... 'GIVE THEM THE MONEY, YOU FUCKING SHOWER OF CUNTS'... (^_^) thank you...steps off soapbox... ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:27:36 -0600 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers At 02:54 PM 11/21/02 EST, you wrote: Chris said > ><< Don't mean to cause trouble but I have to disagree here.If anything Mark I >would suggest it might be an age thing rather than a US v Brit thing.<< As you and Kevin Eden are Crimson fans, it's not an entirely US vs. Brit thing any way. Mark said, >I think it's down to whether you 'got' prog or not.... whether or not you >migrated from buying TRex and Bowie singles to buying albums in 75/76. I don't have any albums by Yes, ELP, Gentle Giant, Jethro Tull, Genesis, ... etc. I've always rather wished that after the original band had broken up, Fripp would have carried on w/ a different name, just so Greg Lake would not be counted as a former member! Perhaps what makes a Wire fan a Crimson fan is hearing what's NOT prog about Crimson? I know, many exceptions--as always. Further note: Does music that is technical, that is not emotional nor soulful, and that is played by virtuosos necessarily mean music above technique? (Take away the virtuoso part, and many would say the same things about 154, by the way.) Although Crimson is very complex and very objective, they're never about everyone just playing as fast as they can. In this way, as w/ the darker mood than usually found w/ prog, they have more in common w/ electric Miles Davis or w/ Bartok than they do the above bands. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 12:27:20 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Fwd:OT [Shriekback_Digital_Conspiracy] references TJ Warrender wrote:To: "Shriekback Group" From: "TJ Warrender" Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:59:55 -0000 Subject: [Shriekback_Digital_Conspiracy] references Well, the music press in the UK seems to have finally woken up. In the centre pages of this week's NME is an article on Radio 4 (the group, not the radio station), and how they are leading the new punk-funk movement. At the end is a section of 'Old, influential records you should try to dig out', and amongst the six mentioned is My Spine (Is The Bassline).Not only that, but in last month's edition of The Wire, in a review of the Teutonik Disaster compilation, it describes Scala's 'Irrsinn In Dub' as "like Trio jamming with Shriekback in Hi-Tension's basement".What next, Justin Timberfake claiming his musical roots come from Mercy Dash?Tim Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT If we stand together long enough and in the right place, perhaps the accustomed fog will lift and we will glimpse whole new planets and, further off, the unfamiliar stars. ~~'Shriek Without End'~~ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 14:49:51 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers At 02:27 PM 11/21/2002 -0600, Michael Flaherty wrote: >Perhaps what makes a Wire fan a Crimson fan is hearing what's NOT prog >about Crimson? That would be me. For reference and filing purposes: American, male, b. 5/4/67. For what it's worth, my wife, who has a year on me and who shares 99.9% of my taste in music, cannot abide Crimson. Along with a couple of jazz discs, the only music she's asked me to turn off is King Crimson (this was, specifically, a GREAT DECEIVER disc, and one of the more unproggy sections!). Also for what it's worth, Crimson fans tend to be men. The one show I saw of theirs (2001, one of the weekend of "warmup" shows at 12th & Porter here in Nashville) was 99% male. And not just any males, but adult males who still had the goat smell common of adolescent boys (no wonder there were no women with them!), and who made extremely pun-nerful, painfully nerdy, unfunny heckles at the band, then looked at each other proudly seeking "I just out-geeked you!" affirmation. Lots of pre-show talk among them about hardware (guitars, amps, etc.). Oh, and dwarves. Dwarves like Crimson. There were at least four at that show, and they weren't there as a group or anything, and there wasn't a "little people" convention in town. They'd come there separately, of their own accord, drawn by the flurry of 1/64th notes or the hypontic lure of 9/22 time, or the goat smell. It was the most dwarf-intensive show I've ever seen. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:11:34 EST From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Wire Lyrics Question apologies if this has already been covered/answered before ... does anyone know who is responsible for writing/co-writing the lyrics for each of the tracks on Read & Burn 01 & 02 ?? thank you in advance for any help Robert ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:37:50 -0000 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Octipad >>>> the reversed Raft Ant drums might also be a > difficult manoeuvre to pull off. >>>i thought that was what the octipad was for is it still at robert's right? It might be, but I'm no tech head at all and I didn't notice. Colin and Graham hog the limelight and Bruce and Robert almost vanish. Bruce told me all about the gadget he was using for the third in the Latin Trilogy bit I can't remember any of the technical specifics. When people have asked me what kind of guitar I play, the answer I give is 'a white one.' They didn't play Raft Ants. I think some people mistook Mr Marx's Table for Raft Ants at the US gigs. The octipad definitely played a large part in Ally in Exile in Edinburgh and I think Robert uses it for In The Art of Stopping, but I could be completely wrong about that. Could Mr Bursa perhaps enlighten us here? Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP James Tenney - Form 1 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:46:01 -0000 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes >>>I talked to Colin about the possibly of a live album back at the Boston gig, because their current setlist really kills. >>>Colin said the focus now is on the R&Bs and the new stuff = "Pink Flag [the label] has a backload of stuff to be released, but it would appeal mostly to the hardcore fans - we are too busy focusing on the R&Bs to put it out now. The whole Chicago gig from this [US] tour was recorded and we have the stuff we did back at the Garage. It will come out someday." I suggested to Graham and Bruce that if they were going to compile R&B tracks onto an album, a good carrot for the people who already had the R&B EPs would be to package the album with another limited CD such as a live album or the Albini sessions. Graham said certainly not, as it would confuse people. Bruce mentioned that the album would probably be heavily reliant on alternate mixes. It'll also have some tracks that haven't appeared on 01 and 02 and it seems the plan at present is to get an album out before 03. Colin played some alternate mixes whilst DJing at ATP, and I think these included Comet and Stopping, so we can probably assume that those two will be on the album. I'd be very surprised if they left off 99.9 or Spent. I also have an alternate Raft Ants recorded from Colin's Resonance broadcast, but its actually more of an unfinished version, just lacking some of the more computerised noises that come in near the end. The way he segued it from the Flux Information Sciences track he played before it was one of the best bits of the broadcast. Other tracks they have: *Zoom - dark instrumental droner from Edinburgh *Mr Marx's Table - as heard at nearly all gigs this year *Art of Persistance - Colin has reworked this into something very different to its original form. I'm not sure if this counts as a WIRE track or a DJ Fuckoff remix though. *The pretty instrumental that soundtracked a cartoon of a fluttering pink flag at the ICA - does anyone know if this had a title? Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:47:26 -0000 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] An Ideal Copy > A person who spams Ideal Copy with everyday off > topic posts who hasn't yet > bought Read and Burn 02. ... >>>>so you did ultimately buy a copy yourself? Of course not! I asked Ari Britt to burn me a CD-R! Wouldn't you? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:47:53 -0000 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Hippo Critters? >>>"Weeny:" an insecure loser who tries to claim significance, demonstrating his nasal-anal proximity by recounting every conversation he's ever had with any musician. Billy couldn't be getting in a tizzy over me then, as I haven't mentioned anything about recent conversations with John Schmersal, Johnny Temple, Chris Brokaw or Maryann Amacher here. Actually the funny thing is that almost all my conversations are with musicicans or people who help musicians in some way or other. This is what comes of putting on gigs and socialising almost exclusively at gigs, etc. I'm surprised Billy is so impressed by this, as most musicians are fairly down to earth and will answer a few questions if you ask them, as the many people on this list who've spoken to members of WIRE will no doubt realise. However if anyone wants to read more things that musicians have said to me, they can have a look at my website. I'm sorry to say though that it's far from a complete record, as many of the things they've said have been edited out. >>>We're impressed. Some people are so easily impressed aren't they? This is why perhaps Robert Lynn seems to repeatedly spout that crap about me being so much more 'important' than him. Now tisbili seems to be parroting his line. >>>You can stop now. I'll stop NOW and reverse into tomorrow! I'm sure no one could level the charge of hypocrisy at someone who unlurks just to make vain attempts at lecturing on manners but doesn't have the good manners to introduce him/herself first, but just in case they did, maybe Billy'n'glen could tell us Where do you live? When did you first hear WIRE? When did you first see them play a gig? What did you think of Read & Burn 02? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 21:48:22 -0000 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Pimping I was curious as to how anyone could be considered to be 'pimping' when they aren't making any money? Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:31:52 -0500 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Pimping That would simply be a bad businessman. - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Bill Hick Sent: November 21, 2002 4:48 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: [idealcopy] Pimping I was curious as to how anyone could be considered to be 'pimping' when they aren't making any money? Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:35:15 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pimping At 09:48 PM 11/21/2002 +0000, Bill Hick wrote: >I was curious as to how anyone could be considered to be 'pimping' when they >aren't making any money? It's a pimp in need of a marketing plan, sez I! later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:37:21 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes At 09:46 PM 11/21/2002 +0000, Bill Hick wrote: >Other tracks they have: > >*Zoom - dark instrumental droner from Edinburgh > >*Mr Marx's Table - as heard at nearly all gigs this year > >*Art of Persistance - Colin has reworked this into something very different to >its original form. I'm not sure if this counts as a WIRE track or a DJ Fuckoff >remix though. > >*The pretty instrumental that soundtracked a cartoon of a fluttering pink flag >at the ICA - does anyone know if this had a title? Did "Ten Years After" disappear, or morph into something else? I've only heard it the one time on Peel's broadcast of some of the ATP performances (and I wasn't set up to tape it). later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:46:08 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Hippo Critters? At 09:47 PM 11/21/2002 +0000, Bill Hick wrote: >>>>You can stop now. > >I'll stop NOW and reverse into tomorrow! I knew it was you who fucked with the space-time continuum! Especially after picking up one of those BILLBOARD reference books and seeing that the Fall's "Wings" had spent 78 weeks as the U.S. #1, a run of dominance only surpassed by READ AND BURN 01 spending 82 weeks topping the album chart (an even more amazing feat since it's only been out what, 30 weeks or so). >I'm sure no one could level the charge of hypocrisy at someone who unlurks >just to make vain attempts at lecturing on manners but doesn't have the good >manners to introduce him/herself first, but just in case they did, maybe > >Billy'n'glen could tell us > >Where do you live? >When did you first hear WIRE? >When did you first see them play a gig? >What did you think of Read & Burn 02? Might I suggest that responses to Graeme's post be limited to these very useful four questions. beak beak 'n' beak beak YEAH!, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:03:33 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Octipad >>>> the reversed Raft Ant drums might also be a > difficult manoeuvre to pull off.<< I guess they just wouldn't bohter. It's actually very difficult to play 'reversed drums' if you think about it, as you'd have to strike the pad at the start of the reversed decay in correct time for the reversed 'thwack' to hit the beat. > >>>i thought that was what the octipad was for > is it still at robert's right? > > It might be, but I'm no tech head at all and I didn't notice. Colin and > Graham > hog the limelight and Bruce and Robert almost vanish. Bruce told me all > about > the gadget he was using for the third in the Latin Trilogy bit I can't > remember any of the technical specifics.<< He does use a cracking effect pedal in 'Read & Burn'. Don't know what it is though, especially if it's modern! >> When people have asked me what kind > of guitar I play, the answer I give > is 'a white one.'<< Is that you or Bruce talking? ;-) > >>They didn't play Raft Ants. > I think some people mistook Mr Marx's Table for Raft Ants at the US gigs.<< The set seems to be pretty much fixed. No raft ants, nice streets or trash/treasure. > >>The octipad definitely played a large part in Ally in Exile in Edinburgh > and I > think Robert uses it for In The Art of Stopping, but I could be completely > wrong about that.<< He does use it in AoS, to trigger the different noises when it, er, stops. Edinburgh AiE is now Don't understand, which seems devoid of Octapad. He also used it (just it) at the Barbican on Dim Flash. Graham was using a Korg Kaoss Pad to sample and manipulate his own voice. Bruce was playing a Bruceophone ;-) > >>Could Mr Bursa perhaps enlighten us here?<< That do ya? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:05:59 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes > >>Did "Ten Years After" disappear, or morph into something else? I've only > heard it the one time on Peel's broadcast of some of the ATP performances > (and I wasn't set up to tape it).<< It's Spent. Same song, different title. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:08:00 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Alternate Mixes >>*Zoom - dark instrumental droner from Edinburgh<< Played using E-bows. I guess it's morphed into the intro to 99.9... > >>The pretty instrumental that soundtracked a cartoon of a fluttering pink > flag > at the ICA - does anyone know if this had a title?<< Isn't this some sort of station identifier/web site intro page for pinkflag.com? > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 18:19:23 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers Miles, Fantastic post. Been chuckling about the dwarves frugging in 9/22 time all evening! Mark > >>Also for what it's worth, Crimson fans tend to be men. The one show I saw > > of theirs (2001, one of the weekend of "warmup" shows at 12th & Porter here > > in Nashville) was 99% male. And not just any males, but adult males who > still had the goat smell common of adolescent boys (no wonder there were no > > women with them!), and who made extremely pun-nerful, painfully nerdy, > unfunny heckles at the band, then looked at each other proudly seeking "I > just out-geeked you!" affirmation. Lots of pre-show talk among them about > hardware (guitars, amps, etc.). > > Oh, and dwarves. Dwarves like Crimson. There were at least four at that > show, and they weren't there as a group or anything, and there wasn't a > "little people" convention in town. They'd come there separately, of their > > own accord, drawn by the flurry of 1/64th notes or the hypontic lure of > 9/22 time, or the goat smell. It was the most dwarf-intensive show I've > ever seen. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:18:43 -0800 From: "Arzach" Subject: [idealcopy] 21 May 1990 setlist Hi, Anyone have a setlist fo the Hibernian Club, London show of 21 May 1990? May have been a radio broadcast. Cheers, johnc ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 15:18:43 -0800 From: "Arzach" Subject: [idealcopy] 21 May 1990 setlist Hi, Anyone have a setlist fo the Hibernian Club, London show of 21 May 1990? May have been a radio broadcast. Cheers, johnc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:04:33 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: drummers > << Don't mean to cause trouble but I have to disagree here.If anything Mark I > would suggest it might be an age thing rather than a US v Brit thing.<< > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we roughly the same age, (I was born > 28/10/60) give or take a week or so. Or is that Keith?? That's me. > I think it's down to whether you 'got' prog or not.... whether or not you > migrated from buying TRex and Bowie singles to buying albums in 75/76. That's precisely the road I was going down... phew. > >>FWIW I can't understand the acclaim The Happy Mondays received.Hardly liked > a thing by them.......Ducks down quick. >> > > Enormously influential As Tim said earlier, Bummed is a great album - almost in spite of (as much as because of) Hannetts murk IMO. It teeters somewhere between brilliant and awful! (Anyone else think that the inside cover is perhaps the least erotic female nude photo ever!) I actually prefer their more scratchy debut LP though. Especially Russell. But back to KC. I might have bought Larks Tongue at some point in time, but like Mark I definitely prefer the Sunshine Band and their Boogie Shoes. After all, can you really trust the taste of a bloke who married Toyah bleedin' Wilcox? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:09:31 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > > As for the Bunnymen, I suspect the drum machine line-up would have soon run > out of ideas. Can't imagine they would have made Ocean Rain without Pete. I'd happily live without Ocean Rain and it's crap cover, big production and bloody turtles, if I could have a 1979 drum machine version of Crocodiles. Keith np JAMC - Stone & Dethroned ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 19:04:16 EST From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > >>I'd happily live without Ocean Rain and it's crap cover, big production > and > bloody turtles, if I could have a 1979 drum machine version of Crocodiles.<< > > > Somewhere I've got a tape of a drum machine bunnyment gig. Must check the > setlist to see what they actually played. Some of Crocodiles was written > post-Pete (eg rescue) > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2002 00:18:58 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > > Some of Crocodiles was written post-Pete (eg rescue) Rescue's shite anyway! It was the first time I thought that the Bunnymen weren't maybe as great as they thought. Although I bought most of their stuff, I would have that thought more and more over the years. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:21:05 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] 21 May 1990 setlist patterns of behavior eardrum bingo's small black reptiles goodbye ploy sixth sense stampede you hung your lights in the trees ahead what do you see? 12 drill U bombay underwater experiences torch it! mine also has a 'bonus track' colin:cut the slack,from a radio session i think.Ari Arzach wrote:Hi, Anyone have a setlist fo the Hibernian Club, London show of 21 May 1990? May have been a radio broadcast. Cheers, johnc Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 16:59:29 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Fw: Wire and The The This from Scott BODY { MARGIN-TOP: 25px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 25px; COLOR: #000000; FONT-FAMILY: Arial, Helvetica}P.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"}LI.msoNormal { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 0px; COLOR: #ffffcc; FONT-FAMILY: Helvetica, "Times New Roman"} ----- Original Message ----- From: SMY To: ari Sent: Thursday, November 21, 2002 5:34 PMSubject: Wire and The The Found this at http://www.thethe.com/ thought you'd find this of very special interest... WIRE http://www.pinkflag.com/ Wires Graham Lewis and Bruce Gilbert played a vital role in the early career of Matt Johnson by not only producing TheThes first ever single CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT/BLACK & WHITE and two tracks from BURNING BLUE SOUL album but also by inviting the fledging TheThe to support them live. Reforming again for an intial concert at the Royal Festival Hall in 2000, performing an entirely retrospective set to a sold out venue & the subsequent 8 date tour of the USA they were encouraged & inspired to start work on a series of new recordings. Rejecting any record company offers in favour of their own label pinkflag, Newman, Gilbert, Lewis and Grey are back in the racks again this year with their first new studio recordings together in over a decade. Like Snakedrill before it at the dawn of Phase Two, Read & Burn is a short (six songs, 17 minutes) and savage reintroduction to Wire of almost unbearable intensity,its brevity driven by the palpable fury and energy which went into its creation. Which isn't to say that Read & Burn is some sort of toss-off sampler or trial disc: it's a fully realized, standalone recording, but it does leave the listener fully and eagerly primed for what this new phase of Wire's evolution may bring, but even if they don't ever release another record, Wire (Phase Three) will have been a success, based strictly on the 17-minute stab of genius that is Read & Burn. Wire headlined the Saturday nights of the Steve Albini/Shellac curated "All Tomorows Parties" festival & have been touring the USA in September 2002. "Put down your heavy weapons and walk away." - James Angell LIVE LARGE @ http://atlringz.tripod.com/ "I'm not afraid of standing still; I'm afraid of being bored." - J.O.J. Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #392 *******************************