From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #391 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, November 21 2002 Volume 05 : Number 391 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits [rayographique ] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits ["Norm Fasey" ] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits [Tisbili@aol.com] Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] Song to the Siren ["Cambra, Robert" ] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits [eric719@webtv.net (Eric] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits and drummers [Eardrumbuz] [idealcopy] live albums ["Paul Ye" ] [none] ["Paul Ye" ] Re: [idealcopy] [partly OT] woses, wosawies, wabbits & Wobert [Bart van D] [idealcopy] Re: EMI vs. Restless CDs ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:33:00 -0800 (PST) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits - --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote and Keith Asterbury wrote vatious things about TSR and TJAMC: Never really *got* the roses myself - of course "classic rock' didn't do much for me pas puberty anyways [and that was a while befor the roses] as for the brothers' reid [and their drummachine] - i thought they rode a gimick sound further than could be reasonable expected and gave them good grades for 'exceeding expectations' [in true despised rokcrit fashion] which might seed another [mostly] OT thread: what other bands were actually stronger with a drum machine than a real drummer? obviously [to me at least] this list would not include our heros or echo Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:05:38 -0500 From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits In a message dated 11/20/2002 6:33:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, rayographique@yahoo.com writes: > what other bands were actually stronger with a drum > machine than a real drummer? ////not many gave it a real go with both , a lot mucked around with a beatbox then got a muso in when they got "serious" (JAMC did the opposite of course.....). the march violets were way better in their original scuzzy drum machine era than their horrible cod-blondie end period (with drummer). and , whatever you do , don't accuse colin of using a "drum machine". i have a tape of a WIR interview where the interviewer makes this mistake and gets a serious ticking off. computers , sequencers , programming ; yes. drum machines ; no no no. p ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 13:08:44 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote and Keith Asterbury > wrote vatious things about TSR and TJAMC: I didn't as it happens, but I will. Stone Roses - most over-rated group in the history of pop. Only Fools Gold *really* does it for me. JAMC - with hindsight their debut LP was too highly praised. Equally, their later albums were too easily dismissed. Automatic for example is pop classic. 20th Century Boy riffs abound. Always a good thing IMO ; ) > what other bands were actually stronger with a drum > machine than a real drummer? > obviously [to me at least] this list would not include > our heros or echo Well Echo are undoubtedly the obvious ones here. As someone who saw the drum machine version live a couple of times, I have to say I thought they were ten times better without DeFreitas. Crocodiles might be a pretty decent album, but I'd have loved them to have released a drummer-less version. Wir would definitely not be included here IMO. Wire without Robert is like Wales without Craig Bellamy, Robbie Savage, Mark Pembridge, etc. Apologies to non-footie listers*, but it's a topical point. Worried? Me? Yeah, I am as it happens... Keith *OK, like The Who without Keith Moon, The Damned without Scabies, The Beatles without....Lennon! NP Trojan compilation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 03:55:54 +0000 From: "kevin combs" Subject: [idealcopy] evidence so i've been wading through your eloquent posts for some time...i'm coming out of the shadows to ask if anybody recorded any of wire's us tour...or is this a taboo subject? sure like to hear some prime documentation. truly, kevin. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 14:33:34 -0000 From: "Norm Fasey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > > what other bands were actually stronger with a drum > > machine than a real drummer? Metal Urbain of course :) Norm ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 07:35:15 -0500 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits My two cents worth: I liked the Stone Roses very much for about 9 months. The "debut" album still stands up for me - both as a classic, and a a marvelous pastiche of "classic" rock. Only a young/new/no bridges to burn band could get away w/ such a move. It's unfortunate that pop music culture in the UK is so tied to media apprehension of it. It's probably ruined as many promising bands as it's helped bring attention to artists that would have languished in obscurity otherwise. Fool's Gold was the end of the line for the Roses. On one hand it's brilliant that they can apply the by now standard formula, show no new idea and sustain it for 8 minutes. On the other, I suspect that if it had been released by anyone other than the SR, it would have been (at best) ignored. For me the Stone Roses weren't a movement. They were a moment. A little perfect jewel - fully formed, but incapable of evolution. They were too informed by the past, and had no new ideas - just recombinant ones. As to the JAMC. I loved them, tremendously, when they first came out. My appreciation for their works is on a slowly declining plane w/ successive releases. Let's give the kids their due, for another band w/ no new ideas, they managed pretty well to shake things up. Indie/alt rock in the UK in the mid 80s was pretty weedy. Mopy Morrissey's, lots of twee, bedsit lachchrymos guitar janglers (TVPs, Pastels, et al). The 60 Action POP bravado of their sense of moment, coupled w/ the classic 76/77 punk two-finger salute attitude of their classic two-brothers fighting (so much more amusing that those O-aye-suss boys) when they weren't battling the world was a nice shake up. What's wrong w/ regurgitated feedback Velvets, Ramones, Cramps, Beach Boy/Phil Spector melodies, set to a primal throbbing beat. That's a sound that should break out every decade just to remind us of where our loyalties lie. Steve. G - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Astbury" To: Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2002 8:08 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > > --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote and Keith Asterbury > > wrote vatious things about TSR and TJAMC: > > I didn't as it happens, but I will. > > Stone Roses - most over-rated group in the history of pop. Only Fools Gold > *really* does it for me. > > JAMC - with hindsight their debut LP was too highly praised. > > Equally, their later albums were too easily dismissed. > > Automatic for example is pop classic. 20th Century Boy riffs abound. Always > a good thing IMO ; ) > > > what other bands were actually stronger with a drum > > machine than a real drummer? > > obviously [to me at least] this list would not include > > our heros or echo > > Well Echo are undoubtedly the obvious ones here. As someone who saw the drum > machine version live a couple of times, I have to say I thought they were > ten times better without DeFreitas. Crocodiles might be a pretty decent > album, but I'd have loved them to have released a drummer-less version. > > Wir would definitely not be included here IMO. > > Wire without Robert is like Wales without Craig Bellamy, Robbie Savage, Mark > Pembridge, etc. > > Apologies to non-footie listers*, but it's a topical point. > > Worried? Me? > > Yeah, I am as it happens... > > Keith > > *OK, like The Who without Keith Moon, The Damned without Scabies, The > Beatles without....Lennon! > > NP Trojan compilation ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:59:46 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits At 01:08 PM 11/20/2002 +0000, Keith Astbury wrote: >Stone Roses - most over-rated group in the history of pop. Only Fools Gold >*really* does it for me. To me, only "I Wanna Be Adored" works. Oh, the promise of those dynamics and the sense of subtle, pervasive menace. It couldn't have been more misleading about the rest of the album. >JAMC - with hindsight their debut LP was too highly praised. > >Equally, their later albums were too easily dismissed. > >Automatic for example is pop classic. 20th Century Boy riffs abound. Always >a good thing IMO ; ) DARKLANDS probably doesn't count as "later," but I remember it being very ill-received, even though considerable portions of it have hung around my cerebellum for 15 years now. MUNKI is a bracing return to form, but almost everyone had totally dismissed them by then, so no one was left to notice. If a CD falls in a forest... >Well Echo are undoubtedly the obvious ones here. As someone who saw the drum >machine version live a couple of times, I have to say I thought they were >ten times better without DeFreitas. Crocodiles might be a pretty decent >album, but I'd have loved them to have released a drummer-less version. And here I was so happy that I managed to see them (in '88, but it was my first real shot) before Pete met his maker! >Wire without Robert is like Wales without Craig Bellamy, Robbie Savage, Mark >Pembridge, etc. > >Apologies to non-footie listers*, I figured it was something like that, since none of those names came close to ringing any sort of bell! I never had a proper appreciation for what Robert brings to the Wire table until I saw Wire live for the first time in 2000. Now, when I go back to any record he's on, I have a whole new appreciation for the drums on those tracks. Precise, brutal, amazing. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:12:30 -0800 (PST) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits - --- Keith Astbury wrote: > > --- PaulRabjohn@aol.com wrote and Keith Asterbury > > wrote vatious things about TSR and TJAMC: > > I didn't as it happens, but I will. damn wrong keith again my apologies > Well Echo are undoubtedly the obvious ones here. As > someone who saw the drum > machine version live a couple of times, I have to > say I thought they were > ten times better without DeFreitas. Crocodiles might > be a pretty decent > album, but I'd have loved them to have released a > drummer-less version. never had the opportunity or pleasure while defreitas was not the best drummer of all time, i have a hard time imagining that a machine would have worked better you might infer that i don't think rock bands work *real* well with machines don't get me wront - i love machines, just not in the solid rock sense Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:16:48 -0500 (EST) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Miles Goosens wrote: > To me, only "I Wanna Be Adored" works. Oh, the promise of those > dynamics and the sense of subtle, pervasive menace. It couldn't have > been more misleading about the rest of the album. Neither 'proper' Stone Roses album is any good, but "The Complete Stone Roses" (A- and B- sides from the period around the first album) knocked me out when, in 1997, I started wondering if all those guys in baggy pants had really been as annoying as I'd found them in the early 90s. Inspiral Carpets, not bad; Happy Mondays, still very annoying; Stone Roses, really good. Having never lived in a country where they were overexposed I can't speak to the continued irritation of a British person... a ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 08:17:08 -0800 (PST) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits ... > I never had a proper appreciation for what Robert > brings to the Wire table > until I saw Wire live for the first time in 2000. > Now, when I go back to > any record he's on, I have a whole new appreciation > for the drums on those > tracks. Precise, brutal, amazing. amen - robert is the perfect drummer for wire as time passes i have a much greater appreciation for inconspicuous drumers and bass players on great recordings Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 10:36:44 -0600 From: Miles Goosens Subject: [idealcopy] Re: [no longer OT!] roses, rosaries and rabbits At 08:17 AM 11/20/2002 -0800, rayographique wrote: >... >> I never had a proper appreciation for what Robert >> brings to the Wire table >> until I saw Wire live for the first time in 2000. >> Now, when I go back to >> any record he's on, I have a whole new appreciation >> for the drums on those >> tracks. Precise, brutal, amazing. > >amen - robert is the perfect drummer for wire >as time passes i have a much greater appreciation for >inconspicuous drumers and bass players on great >recordings And see, we're no longer off-topic! It all comes around, eventually, light entertainment though we may be. :-) One of my fave Robert moments is captured on IT'S ALL IN THE BROCHURE -- that moment in the second half of "Pink Flag" when Robert turns the intensity up from "ferocious" to "earthquake inducing," just before Mr. Gilbert lets loose a burst of giant mutated-weedwhacker noise. later, Miles ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 11:43:07 -0500 From: "stephen graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits There's an oldish video floating around of Echo and the Bunnymen called Pictures on My Wall - part of which features live concert footage of the Bunnymen in Liverpool circa 1984. And they are huge. They are awesome. Full in control of a big and ambitious sound. Maybe only for a moment, but Echo & the Bunnymen were monsters of rock. sg _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:56:22 +0200 From: "Glenn" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > Full in control of a big and ambitious sound. Maybe only for a moment, but > Echo & the Bunnymen were monsters of rock. > sg Have to go along with that. ..and on the subject of drummerless bands, anyone up for The 3 Johns ? G. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:22:20 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > DARKLANDS probably doesn't count as "later," but I remember it being very > ill-received, even though considerable portions of it have hung around my > cerebellum for 15 years now. I like all their albums in their own way. Their later ones might have sounded uninspiring and more of the same on release, but they all wear well IMO. >MUNKI is a bracing return to form Even if it did feature both I Love Rock'n'Roll and I Hate Rock'n'Roll. Pop's best example of an artist being indecisive since Lennon couldn't make his mind up whether to count him in or out of a Revolution. > >Wire without Robert is like Wales without Craig Bellamy, Robbie Savage, Mark > >Pembridge, etc. If that comparison holds up now Wales have beaten Azerbaijan... Professional if uninspiring, apart from the odd great moment - two great headers and So & Slow... respectively? > I never had a proper appreciation for what Robert brings to the Wire table > until I saw Wire live for the first time in 2000. Now, when I go back to > any record he's on, I have a whole new appreciation for the drums on those > tracks. Precise, brutal, amazing. I've long liked what Robert contributes to Wire (I was rather pissed off when he left to be honest). But you're right Miles, seeing him live *really* makes you appreciate what he does. Precise, brutal, amazing, just about sums it up perfectly. Keith np The Seeds - Pushing Too Hard ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:23:20 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > damn wrong keith again > my apologies accepted ; ) > while defreitas was not the best drummer of all time, > i have a hard time imagining that a machine would have > worked better they were a totally different beast. a much smaller one. no, they didn't 'rock', but they did throb and sway. and they didn't have defreitas periodic over-enthusiam. their 1st single is still my fave... Keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:34:39 -0000 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits > ..and on the subject of drummerless bands, anyone up for The 3 Johns ? > G. What about CS&N ; ) Seriously though, Death of the European is a monster record. Colossal. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 16:20:46 -0800 (PST) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] will you...... .....be able to record the Jewel concert this saturday? if poss. dolby c,and if ya like it i'll burn you a copy when i copy it to c.d,or anything else from my humungous collection......Ari Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:27:30 EST From: Tisbili@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits In a message dated 11/20/02 11:18:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, rayographique@yahoo.com writes: << as time passes i have a much greater appreciation for inconspicuous drumers >> brings to mind bill bruford's credit on king crimson's starless & bible black's live improvisation in which he played nothing: "admirable restraint." tB ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:38:31 -0500 From: "Cambra, Robert" Subject: Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] Song to the Siren Oh--jeeze--so that's what that was--I've heard this. Recognized it right away. A song guaranteed to slay. Thanks, Paul Robert (another) Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 02:04:58 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] Song to the Siren > >> Siren indeed is one of the most beautiful songs I ever heard in pop. > > > Did you ever hear either of Tim's versions? > > No I didn't, but I'm curious cos of your enthusiasm Paul. To tell you the > truth, I didn't even know it was a Tim Buckley song. > Actually, I found a third. It was an unreleased 1968 studio run-thru. For educational purposes only, I have placed all three in streaming media files. These should work on a 56k modem or better. Please don't forward this address to other people - this is for your personal use only. If you like RealAudio, click here: http://tenchi.weasel-bot.com/buckley/Sirens.ram If you like Windows Media, click here: http://tenchi.weasel-bot.com/buckley/sirens.wvx The order of the songs are as follows. Track 1 is the 1967 version, live on the set of the final episode of the Monkees TV show. Tim had w! ritten this song mere months before, and this was its first public performance. This is very reminiscent of Tim's first two folk albums. Track 2 is the 1968 unreleased studio version. This is of a place with Tim's Happy Sad and Blue Afternoon albums. More jazz than folk at this point. Track 3 is the 1970 Starsailor version. This is, well, really out there. It's hard to believe that this is the same Tim that did the first version 3 years ago. My guess is that the This Mortal Coil version is based from this track. Cheers, Paul *************************************************************** This message is intended only for the use of the individuals to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you have received this transmission in error; any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this transmission is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by reply e-mail and delete this message and all of its attachments. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 21:16:31 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits In a message dated 11/20/02 7:28:39 PM, Tisbili@aol.com writes: > ><< as time passes i have a much greater appreciation for > inconspicuous drumers >> > >brings to mind bill bruford's credit on king crimson's starless & bible > >black's live improvisation in which he played nothing: "admirable restraint." or robert fripp's criteria for any drummer upon reforming king crimson before discipline...something to the effect of "keep time, don't play any fills" :o) -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 18:27:22 -0800 (PST) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits and drummers > or robert fripp's criteria for any drummer upon > reforming king crimson before > discipline...something to the effect of "keep time, > don't play any fills" hmmm.. do you think Fripp may have actually made an oblique reference to Phil Collins ? As I recall, Bruford had just left Genesis few years before Discipline came out! ya never know! RJH Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits Keith said: > Stone Roses - most over-rated group in the history of pop. Only Fools Gold > *really* does it for me. 'The Stone Roses' is a dreary pastiche of The Byrds/60s psych rock. Not surprisingly, Stone Roses chose John Leckie as producer because they liked XTC's pastiche of 60s music 'Dukes of The Statosphear' which Leckie produced. Stone Roses were young enough to know better. XTC were old enough to do this only as a cheeky side project. Happy Mondays knew better! Over the last 10 years I have had countless arguments in which I claim that 'Bummed' by Happy Mondays pisses on anything the Stone Roses ever did. An article in this months MOJO now backs this up....so I'm not mental! 'Bummed' is a work of pure, twisted, dirty genius....made by drug-addled scallys from a hellhole Salford overspill estate, inspired by mountains of LSD, E and other bad things.....but they were also clever fellas...and they had good taste for a bunch of Enterprise Allowance Scheme blaggers...they were listening to ACR, Magazine, Joy Division, House Music and Funkadelic...and they were watching Spinal Tap, Gimme Shelter and the best British film ever made, Donald Cammels 'Performance' (the LP is littered with samples and lyrical references to these films). And it was a parting shot for the late Martin Hannet..bowing out with massive piledriver drums, insane special effects and a reverb that should be illegal! A work of complete and utter genius by all concerned. If I'm not mistaken, they were also partial to 154. If not, they would have got it second hand from early ACR...so there is a Wire link! "I like that.....TURN IT UP!!!!" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 19:36:24 -0800 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits (Note: Some interesting blather from me about King Crimson and drummers - oblique Wire reference near the end. Skip now if this sounds like it might induce nausea! (^_^)) >>brings to mind bill bruford's credit on king crimson's starless & bible >>black's live improvisation in which he played nothing: "admirable >restraint." > >or robert fripp's criteria for any drummer upon reforming king >crimson before discipline...something to the effect of "keep time, don't >play any fills" Even the 81-84 Crimson (aka Discipline) had some odd drummer restrictions. I remember reading an interview where he was complaining - - mildly, mind you - about Bruford's jazz stylings. Not that Robert minded jazz, but Robert complained that when Bruford started very complex drum fills, the overall tempo shifted slightly, which threw Robert off. Robert's quote was something along the lines of "I resent Bill interfering with the tempo". I think that's the key here. It's not that Robert doesn't like complex rhythms - Jamie Muir was one hell of a percussionist on Lark's Tongues in Aspic. It's just that Robert needs the tempo to stay steady to allow him to play his complex guitar figures. I also remember another article about the 81-84 Crimson that suggested that Robert told Bill that he couldn't have a hi-hat cymbal in his drum kit. Robert suggested that the frequencies of the cymbal interfered with his guitar, or something like that. I remember looking at Bill's set at the time, and noticing the absence of the offending cymbal. This was also the cause of some friction between Robert, Bill and, of all people, Adrian Belew. Adrian was/is a drummer, as well as a guitarist, and sometimes accompanied Bill on another drumkit during the live Crimson gigs. This drumkit - of course - had a hi-hat! (^_^) And you thought Wire could sometimes be a little demanding with their drummer! (^_-) Cheers, Paul P.S. Heard the new KC EP yet? (^_-) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:30:07 -0800 (PST) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: [idealcopy] ot -Demands on drummers! I recall reading an interview with Peter Gabriel around the time his 3rd album was released. He decided that there should be no cymbals, so he and Jerry Marotta had some clashes over that whole thing! > And you thought Wire could sometimes be a little > demanding with their > drummer! (^_-) Hell, I would put Robert up with drummers like Charlie Watts! He doesn't overwhelm the music, but if you focus on him, he's clean, precise and you can practically set your watch by their timing! IMHO! ===== Rick Hindman, 3R Productions PO Box 7770 Santa Cruz, CA 95062 t: (831) 425-7335 f: (831) 425-7356 Yahoo! Mail Plus  Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 20:38:59 -0800 (PST) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits ..and on the subject of drummerless bands, anyone up for The 3 Johns ?>> Probably not too many Sisters of Mercy fans on the list but I've always thought they sounded fine without a live drummer. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:56:16 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits In a message dated 11/20/02 11:39:34 PM, eric719@webtv.net writes: >..and on the subject of drummerless bands, anyone up for The 3 Johns ?>> > >Probably not too many Sisters of Mercy fans on the list but I've always >thought they sounded fine without a live drummer. i agree, and it sure didn't hurt cocteau twins any. with them i also liked the look on stage of the band with a reel to reel instead of a drummer. then there was big black! totally intense with just the three guitars. -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:03:42 EST From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [ot] roses, rosaries and rabbits and drummers i wrote: >> or robert fripp's criteria for any drummer upon >> reforming king crimson before >> discipline...something to the effect of "keep time, >> don't play any fills" > In a message dated 11/20/02 9:28:38 PM, r_j_h@yahoo.com writes: >hmmm.. do you think Fripp may have actually made an >oblique reference to Phil Collins "Phils">? hehe, not sure about that one...but it's pretty funny anyway! In a message dated 11/20/02 10:38:45 PM, paulp@wrq.com writes: >Robert's quote was something along the lines of "I resent >Bill interfering with the tempo". > >I think that's the key here. It's not that Robert doesn't like complex >rhythms - Jamie Muir was one hell of a percussionist on Lark's Tongues >in Aspic. It's just that Robert needs the tempo to stay steady to >allow him to play his complex guitar figures. i don't remember the exact quote, but i know the gist of it was with regards to the overall sound he expected for that project and that he basically didn't want any of that fancy shmancy kinda stuff, which i interpreted as a statement about taste. ya know, there wasn't going to be any doodly doodly guitar crap and he didn't want the equivalent of that from his drummer. i dunno, just the way i read it. -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 22:58:33 -0700 From: "Paul Ye" Subject: [idealcopy] live albums "speaking of live albums....any favorites in IC land? i happen to like Siouxsie & the Banshees "Nocturne" a lot....." Cheers, Robert This may be a bit late as I have been catching up on the list mails inbetween work and watching hockey...but the live albums I dig are: Entreat- The Cure (Show is right there as well) Gotham- Bauhaus Still- Joy Division Thanks for mentioning "Nocturne". I have that on vhs as well and I haven't listened to it in ages. I will get it out. paulye154 _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2002 23:51:20 -0700 From: "Paul Ye" Subject: [none] And since Nobody Likes The Wire List Administration List, some Wire content of my own: today while at Tower Records on my lunch break, I spied the EMI box of the first three Wire albums, and picked it up. I haven't had a chance to break the shrinkwrap, but I do want to issue a (belated) thanks to all those idealcopyists who took the trouble to explain the sonic differences between the original US CDs on Enigma/Restless and the EMI remasters, especially the detailed explanation from our redoubtable Paul P. Wait a minute... I have both versions of the three cd's (Restless Retro and the EMI). Did I hear that right? If there is a difference in quality I missed it. Can someone explain this or point me to a date where I can look up the archives???? Thank you. paulye154 _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 08:36:07 +0100 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [partly OT] woses, wosawies, wabbits & Wobert Keith & Miles: >> Stone Roses - most over-rated group in the history of pop. Only Fools Gold >> *really* does it for me. > > To me, only "I Wanna Be Adored" works. Oh, the promise of those dynamics > and the sense of subtle, pervasive menace. It couldn't have been more > misleading about the rest of the album. Adored and Fools Gold are their only ones for me, the rest a MAJOR bore. >> JAMC - with hindsight their debut LP was too highly praised. >> Equally, their later albums were too easily dismissed. >> Automatic for example is pop classic. 20th Century Boy riffs abound. Always >> a good thing IMO ; ) > DARKLANDS probably doesn't count as "later," but I remember it being very > ill-received, even though considerable portions of it have hung around my > cerebellum for 15 years now. MUNKI is a bracing return to form, but almost > everyone had totally dismissed them by then, so no one was left to > notice. If a CD falls in a forest... Stephen: > What's wrong w/ regurgitated feedback Velvets, Ramones, Cramps, Beach Boy/Phil > Spector melodies, set to a primal throbbing beat. That's a sound that should > break out every decade just to remind us of where our loyalties lie. Agreed. JAMC totally did it for me halfway 80's. There first album is just a higher artform. It's true they didn't manage to consolidate the level of that first rush, but as is often the case with real good bands the next albums were enjoyable enough and [imo] better than many of their contempories. Only Sonic Youth beat them at this game. >> Well Echo are undoubtedly the obvious ones here. As someone who saw the drum >> machine version live a couple of times, I have to say I thought they were >> ten times better without DeFreitas. Crocodiles might be a pretty decent >> album, but I'd have loved them to have released a drummer-less version. > > And here I was so happy that I managed to see them (in '88, but it was my > first real shot) before Pete met his maker! Saw them at that same tour december 1987 in de Evenementenhal, Groningen. They were in quite good [though not excellent] shape. Can't remember any specifics about DeFreitas though. > I never had a proper appreciation for what Robert brings to the Wire table > until I saw Wire live for the first time in 2000. Now, when I go back to > any record he's on, I have a whole new appreciation for the drums on those > tracks. Precise, brutal, amazing. I DO remember specifics about Robert's drumming [10-11-2002]. He was just this amazing sort of engine. What power comes out of those long and skinny arms. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 01:15:41 -0800 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: [idealcopy] Re: EMI vs. Restless CDs > Wait a minute... I have both versions of the three cd's (Restless Retro and > the EMI). Did I hear that right? If there is a difference in quality I > missed it. Can someone explain this or point me to a date where I can look > up the archives???? Thank you. > It depends which version of the EMI discs you have. There's the original issue, and then a remastered re-issue that occurred in 1994 or thereabouts. I don't have my remastered EMI discs in front of me, but I can get them from my extensive archives if I need to. (^_^) Basically, the remastered EMI discs have a slightly different bonus track order. They include Dot-dash, and the extended Outdoor Miner, for instance. They also sound quite a bit louder. On the minus side, I did find one track that had evidence of a very slight distortion not present on the original disc. I made quite an extensive post on this issue about a year ago, I'm guessing. I'm not sure what the exact date is, but maybe you can search on my name and EMI or something. (^_^) Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #391 *******************************