From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #341 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, October 6 2002 Volume 05 : Number 341 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Real Books Vs. Fake Books [Superflyww9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] Editorial Direction and the True Artistic Vision [rayogra] Re: [idealcopy] Real Books Vs. Fake Books ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books ["dan bailey" ] [idealcopy] closet music [voyteck@webtv.net] Re: [idealcopy] Editorial Direction and the True Artistic Vision ["dan ba] [idealcopy] lost classic [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Real Books Vs. Fake Books ["Keith Astbury" > No. You are putting words in my mouth. I agree with what you say about publishers today. A book like Ulysses wouldn't get published because an editor would say it's unreadable and a publishing house would say it's unmarketable. Those sort of books couldn't exist today, except, yeah, self-publishing or small independent publishers. Walt Whitman was self-published and so were a lot of people. <> I didn't say that because although some writers are interesting, like Burgess, they are not all great. Some minor writers need editors. But a really good writer doesn't though. I know for one William T. Vollmann doesn't have any editor. Any of his books since The Rifles to Argall didn not have an editor to tell him what to do or even make a suggestion. His new book about violence doesn't have a editor. It has a proofreader to find typos, yeah. Irving Rosenthal, who wrote Sheeper, didn't have a real editor. There were three suggestions made, all which he ignored. There are a hundred more at least. I'll ask. I think a writer might want to have a friend/wife read a manuscript to get a reaction. But it's still up to the writer to make changes/ignore the comments. Also, all writing from workshops and creative writing schools is crap. It might make an okay writer into a better writer. But all books made by committee are rubbish. Alexander Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 05:50:54 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By In a message dated 06/10/2002 03:41:45 GMT Daylight Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > Absolutely toe-curling. I've certainly worked in offices with a fair share > of > dickheads. You have to have worked with salesmen to get that sort of effect > I > think.... > > The other superb comedy of teh year has been Phoenix Nights. Jerry St > Clair's > 'Young at heart' CD track list was phenomenal... > > Mark > While I agree that LOG & The Office are top stuff I have to mention Will & Grace.Now normally it wouldn't get my undivided attention but my wife Rachel likes it & quality time before spending an hour on the IC list involves watching some TV.I have seen quite a few episodes now & quite frankly it's funny.The characters are contrived to fit America's view of homosexuality but the satire is in abundance & the 2 male leads especially are good comic actors. A few US "in" jokes doesn't spoil it.Beats the hell out of Harry Enfields Celeb which is just plain badly written. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 06:06:21 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books In a message dated 06/10/2002 09:15:06 GMT Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > Editors do not just work with writers who "can't spell" and who can't > construct a sentence'. Who are these writers? And are they also too thick > to > use spellcheck??? > > Keith > Dick Francis the horse racing novelist used his wife Mary to proof read his books. Now it is alleged she wrote most of them.Could this be commonplace ? Chris ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:13:15 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books I've got a bit confused by this thread. Dan seemed to be arguing with himself that King didn't write his own books (at least that's the way it read to me) since when Alexander came up with the team of ghostwriters below, which Paul then refuted. I've got to say my instincts are with Paul on this one. Having read a shedload of King there's a consistent narrative voice which would be difficult to reproduce in committee IMO. The man is just a word factory. Is there any objective evidence for this ghostwriter slur? Or is it just Internet tomfoolery? And apropos of the editing thread, he's someone who is probably never touched by an editor in Alexander's sense but who desperately needs one. I mentioned here a few days ago giving up after 'It' which was about 400 pages longer than it needed to be and much of his stuff in the 10 years or so prior to that (not read any since) could have done with judicious pruning. another the Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Pietromonaco To: Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books > > << >Stephen King doesn't even write his own books. > > so who does? harlan ellison? >> > > > > For years he has had a team of ghostwriters writing in the King Style. > Even > > after he supposedly retired, he has still published three books. Any > writer > > who doesn't write his own books, or who needs an editor, should be > > de-published. > > Hmmm - this really sounds like an urban legend to me. I'm not saying you're > wrong here - it's just that every account and interview I've read with the > man seem to indicate he's just a prodigious writer. As for publishing after > retirement, according to what I've read, he will release "From a Buick 8", > then three more installments of the "Dark Tower" series, and then - that's > it. He said that he'll continue to write, but he's gonna stop publishing. > (There's a really good interview with King in Entertainment Weekly: Issue > #674, Sept. 27, 2002 edition. You can probably see most of it on line at > http://www.ew.com ). > > Cheers, > Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:38:35 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads - ----- Original Message ----- From: > Have you boys ever wondered why more women don't hang out "here" with you? > Speaking only for myself, you're juvenile objectifying of females as some > sort of collected accoutrements in your world, tolerated only to impress your > other male friends (witness a recent whine of "my girlfriend is so stupid she > doesn't know anything about music, but we all agree she has the best legs in > town" - nonsense that went on for well over a week)....ever stop to think > that your pride in having such great taste in music, so eclectic!, compares > to your bog-standard cliche choice in women? There are plenty of smart > females who love great music, maybe their looks don't impress your > contemporaries, hmm? yawn.... - ----------- Yeah, I have wondered why there aren't more women here (mentioned it some months ago) but I'd agree with Paul that to accuse us of juvenile objectifying of females is not something I feel happens on this site. I wouldn't want to be here if the people were sexist and I honestly don't believe they are. I know you say you're only speaking for yourself but I'd be interested in the views of other women out there, more of whom have come forward in the last few weeks, albeit briefly. I've no doubt this is perceived as a very male space, but that's arguably because it's mainly populated by males. - --------------- > FYI - I'm an "original" WIRE fan from the late 70's through now....I lived on > my own in London and went alone to gigs 3 or 4 times a week during the early > 80's, surrounded by boys with in long overcoats or short leather jackets, in > twos and and groups of more.. - ---------- I would have been a long overcoat version. - -------- ..I travelled to Europe to see great bands in > better clubs - love Antwerp and know the wonderful pub you speak of - The > Great White Eagle? - we'd go there on a Sunday afternoon to "recover" after > clubbing till 7am the night before - ------------- That's the one! Alistair and Bart please take note! - ------------- ....don't even get me started on Leonidas > chocolates! I still read, but now it's mostly non-fiction, related to the > corporate globalisation that threatens life on the planet as we know > it.....I'm not opposed to "great literature" or even "big books", but if > you've never read a novel by a woman, dudes, you're missing a great chunk of > truth..... - ------------ Well, I think most of us probably have... - ---------------- another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:05:26 EDT From: Superflyww9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books In a message dated 10/6/02 2:33:56 AM, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: << I've got a bit confused by this thread. Dan seemed to be arguing with himself that King didn't write his own books (at least that's the way it read to me) since when Alexander came up with the team of ghostwriters below, which Paul then refuted.>> No. Alexander, who is me, said that King didn't write many of his books entirely, and more specifically ones in the past ten years. This is not general knowledge. <> Actually it would be easy. You can use computer to analyse word usage. You can have people writing pages of King parody. Then you can have King add final touches. It's like Rodin in his later stages. He didn't make all those statues. He had all those artists make things in the Rodin style and Rodin signed them. I doubt if the better books like The Shining or The Stand were written this way. It's well known that Jerzy Kozinki didn't write many of his books. You can look that up. <> Stephen King's major appeal is that he writes long if not simple books. You can't have the blockbuster novel being only100 pages. King didn't listen to some of his heroes like Borges or Poe who both thought all works of fiction should be short: no more than 20 pages or could be read in one sitting. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 12:12:20 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 05:50:54AM -0400, CHRISWIRE@aol.com wrote: > > While I agree that LOG & The Office are top stuff I have to mention Will & > Grace. It must be said, the few times I've been in front of a TV this year (I have a computer which can play DVDs but no television here, but my parents have a TV at home) the reruns of "Yes Minister" on UK Gold have been the funniest thing on. :) The one episode of "Black Books" I saw (Bill Bailey, Dylan Moran) was pretty good, though. - - Andrew - -- "What else can I write? I don't have the right, Who else can I be? All apologies... " - Nirvana, "All Apologies" ('In Utero') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 04:42:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - Short Books/the Cure MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: >>...and i'm with whoever it was that mentioned 'The Outsider'...had a big effect on me as a youth...<< Same here... I studied that for my French A-level. Imagine my surprise at hearing The Cure's first single around that time... Mark and what was the first single,was it 'object'?Ari Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 05:55:39 -0700 (PDT) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Editorial Direction and the True Artistic Vision > > It's a false analogy. I disagree - one area where might seem less applicable is that music is more often a group effort than writing, but writers can collaborate, and musicians can compose/perform solo. Certainly nothing there to void the analogy. Then there is the performance aspect, but once again, poets slam and XTC never tours. So all in all I accept the concept of editorial review direction and correction as universally applicable. Now to look at the principle from the wire perspective, wire peoduced by mike thorne is audibly distinguishable from wire produced by john fryer and wire self-produced by colin. Yet they are all wire and , personally, i like them all for what they are. I think 154 benefited from thorne's involvment. The point here is that (imho) an editor or producer's job is to enhance/magnify/clarify a piece. Bad editors pervert/replace/personalize a piece. of course sometimes even a good editor is faced with a work so dire that there is nothing to do but overhall it. i think of colin's production of parade ground in this light. then there is the kind of work that bruce did with ear trumpet. hard to hear any bruce there at all (except that it is a v. nice record) the only other ep i heard from them (which was self produced, i think) sounded like half-assed ministry (can you have half a half ass?) - so maybe bruce really *did* have an impact on the sound of the album... Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos & More http://faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:32:58 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Real Books Vs. Fake Books > Also, all writing from workshops and creative writing schools is > crap. > all books made by committee are rubbish. You really are blanket statement man, aren't you. Still, why stop there. Let's just quote Blur, say Modern Life is Rubbish and leave it at that eh. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:49:14 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - Short Books/the Cure > >>...and i'm with whoever it was that mentioned 'The Outsider'...had a big > effect on me as a youth...<< > > Same here... I studied that for my French A-level. Imagine my surprise at > hearing The Cure's first single around that time... > > Mark > > and what was the first single,was it 'object'?Ari It was Killing An Arab, Ari. And talking of Camus... With French not being one of my better subjects, I didn't even recognise Camus' name when pronounced by a French student some time in the early 80's. Until then I thought it was pronounced as we would say it in English. Always think that Albert Camus, "in English", sounds like some good old Northern comedian. We may have mentioned this before, but Camus was formerly Algeria's goalkeeper. I'm still awaiting Alex Stepney's first great novel ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 08:40:13 -0500 (CDT) From: voyteck@webtv.net Subject: [idealcopy] whistler's corner So what happens when a song runs out of words or instrumentation; what fills the void: Da, da, dee __ Da, doh, doh __ Tra, la, la __ Oink, bark, cough __ Hmumm?? Myself (and noticing particularly coworkers) whistle along to songs in lieu of singing along, perhaps as like me the words are not clear, but a happy relationship with the song is evident; no spell checking here. I'm not saying the likes of a dog whistle style, such as in Steve Miller's Jungle Love are not good, whereas it's seemingly employed to draw the listener's attention & fits the song. Where I'm thinking is John Lennon's Jealous Guy, XTC's Majors & Generals, VivaBeat's Man from China, etc (too early to think of others). The whistling inflections go somewhere the words or music can't. Be it the rare person who whistles reading, although they may lurk outside your local library's quiet zone! So I might as well ask who the great whistlers are and in what songs. "whistle while you work" (twee-ta-twee-twee-twee-twee-twee!) voyteck ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 14:50:56 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Editorial Direction and the True Artistic Vision > The point here is that (imho) an editor or producer's > job is to enhance/magnify/clarify a piece. Bad > editors pervert/replace/personalize a piece. In a nutshell!!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:07:58 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] whistler's corner In a message dated 10/6/02 6:40:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, voyteck@webtv.net writes: > "whistle while you work" > (twee-ta-twee-twee-twee-twee-twee!) > voyteck > i'm partial to "Even Dogs in the Wild" by the Associates...i often whistle this song on the bus ... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:19:45 -0500 (CDT) From: voyteck@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] whistler's corner On the Bus!? How about when you dugga, dugga, dig? Apologies if offensive, but curious just the same. voyteck Received: from smtpinvite-2001-4.public.lawson.webtv.net (172.16.213.204) by storefull-2355.public.lawson.webtv.net with WTV-SMTP; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (jane.smoe.org [199.201.145.78]) by smtpinvite-2001-4.public.lawson.webtv.net (WebTV_Postfix+sws) with ESMTP id 23E74FE13; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smoe.org (ident-user@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smoe.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g96E8JVx006284 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:08:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by smoe.org (8.12.2/8.12.2/Submit) id g96E8Iqu006283 for idealcopy-outgoing; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:08:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by smoe.org (8.12.2/8.12.2) with ESMTP id g96E8HVx006265 for ; Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:08:17 -0400 (EDT) Received: from RLynn9@aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v34.13.) id 2.106.1957030c (4394); Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:07:58 -0400 (EDT) From: RLynn9@aol.com Message-ID: <106.1957030c.2ad19dbe@aol.com> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:07:58 EDT Subject: Re: [idealcopy] whistler's corner To: voyteck@webtv.net, idealcopy@smoe.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10524 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.97c X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sender: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org Precedence: bulk In a message dated 10/6/02 6:40:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, voyteck@webtv.net writes: > "whistle while you work" > (twee-ta-twee-twee-twee-twee-twee!) > voyteck > i'm partial to "Even Dogs in the Wild" by the Associates...i often whistle this song on the bus ... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:26:45 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By > The characters are contrived to fit America's view of homosexuality but > the satire is in abundance & the 2 male leads especially are good comic > actors. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just out of curiousity, how is America's view of homosexuality difer from the rest of the world ......(no, i am not being defensive...just asking a question) RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:36:18 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] a great day Hello IC ....finally got the piece of junk that i call a computer fixed....great to be able to loaf around and read IC posts on a Sunday morning again....this is when i do most of my music listening as well...why just this morning i have already listened to: Jon Hassell & Brian Eno - Fourth World Vol. 1 Possible Musics Pete Namlook & Ludwig Rehberg - The Putney vol. 2 The Cocteau Twins - Victorialand Arthur Russell - Another Thought John Zorn - The String Quartets (thank you ever so much Ari) anybody seen One Hour Photo yet? i have a free pass and i'm trying to decide if it's worth 2 hrs (or how ever long it is) of my time...i could be standing on a street corner whistling and girls with nice legs don't ya know....(just kidding of course) RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:36:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] whistler's corner RLynn9@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 10/6/02 6:40:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, voyteck@webtv.net writes: > "whistle while you work" > (twee-ta-twee-twee-twee-twee-twee!) > voyteck > i'm partial to "Even Dogs in the Wild" by the Associates...i often whistle this song on the bus ... RL Pity the passengers,better be careful Robert,some-one might think you're trying to 'pick them up'.....Ari Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 07:39:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By RLynn9@aol.com wrote: > The characters are contrived to fit America's view of homosexuality but > the satire is in abundance & the 2 male leads especially are good comic > actors. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Just out of curiousity, how is America's view of homosexuality difer from the rest of the world ......(no, i am not being defensive...just asking a question) RL I think you'll find,Robert,that 'IN GENERAL' Europeans are more tolerant than we in the U.S,though of course there's always the occassional Frenchman with a knife.........Ari Faith Hill - Exclusive Performances, Videos, & more faith.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:40:49 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Real Books Vs. Fake Books In a message dated 10/6/02 6:23:53 AM Pacific Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > You really are blanket statement man, aren't you. > > Still, why stop there. Let's just quote Blur, say Modern Life is Rubbish and > leave it at that eh. > > Keith > > > > Careful Keith....you know that quoting Blur lyrics conjures foul demons from the pits...leave sleeping dragons to their slumber.. "it's much better this way" - the Associates RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:45:19 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] whistler's corner > Pity the passengers,better be careful Robert,some-one might think you're > trying to 'pick them up'.....Ari > well...i just tell em' what a nice pair of gams they have then i go back to reading my copy of Penthouse... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:48:43 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By In a message dated 10/6/02 7:39:55 AM Pacific Daylight Time, luvjazzz@yahoo.com writes: > I think you'll find,Robert,that 'IN GENERAL' Europeans are more tolerant > than we in the U.S,though of course there's always the occassional > Frenchman with a knife.........Ari > really?..do you think that still holds true? actually, here in st. louis (yes, as hard as it is for you west coasterners to believe, we have gay pride festivals and art fairs in the middle of the city and never with incident.....but then again, you did say IN GENERAL..... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:51:24 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] whistler's corner In a message dated 10/6/02 7:20:17 AM Pacific Daylight Time, voyteck@webtv.net writes: > On the Bus!? How about when you dugga, dugga, dig? > Apologies if offensive, but curious just the same. > voyteck > well...the song does seem to be about abuse/neglect of loved ones so i don't think it would be appropriate...... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:55:36 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books >I've got a bit confused by this thread. Dan seemed to be arguing with >himself that King didn't write his own books (at least that's the way it >read to me) nope -- that's either confusing cut-&-pasting or my tongue-in-cheek statement about harlan ellison or keith levene being the actual writer ... i don't doubt for a minute that king is writing his own stuff & has been since he was a kid in the '60s. since when Alexander came up with the team of ghostwriters >below, wonder which theory he subscribes to on who wrote shakespeare's work? we all know it wasn't shakespeare ... which Paul then refuted. > >I've got to say my instincts are with Paul on this one. Having read a >shedload of King there's a consistent narrative voice which would be >difficult to reproduce in committee IMO. The man is just a word factory. >Is there any objective evidence for this ghostwriter slur? Or is it just >Internet tomfoolery? > >And apropos of the editing thread, he's someone who is probably never >touched by an editor in Alexander's sense but who desperately needs one. I >mentioned here a few days ago giving up after 'It' which was about 400 pages >longer than it needed to be and much of his stuff in the 10 years or so >prior to that (not read any since) could have done with judicious pruning. i've read everything he's ever written, bar any of the dark tower novels past the first one (not my cup of tea) -- well, not from a buick 8 yet, as i just picked it up -- & yeah, he could lose a few dozen if not hundred pages here & there. i suspect he's become such a cash cow, though, that no editor has really dared suggest that since "the stand." > >another the Keith > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Paul Pietromonaco >To: >Sent: Saturday, October 05, 2002 7:44 PM >Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books > > >> > << >Stephen King doesn't even write his own books. >> > so who does? harlan ellison? >> >> > >> > For years he has had a team of ghostwriters writing in the King Style. >> Even >> > after he supposedly retired, he has still published three books. Any >> writer >> > who doesn't write his own books, or who needs an editor, should be >> > de-published. >> >> Hmmm - this really sounds like an urban legend to me. I'm not saying >you're >> wrong here - it's just that every account and interview I've read with the >> man seem to indicate he's just a prodigious writer. As for publishing >after >> retirement, according to what I've read, he will release "From a Buick 8", >> then three more installments of the "Dark Tower" series, and then - that's >> it. He said that he'll continue to write, but he's gonna stop publishing. >> (There's a really good interview with King in Entertainment Weekly: Issue >> #674, Sept. 27, 2002 edition. You can probably see most of it on line at >> http://www.ew.com ). >> >> Cheers, >> Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:02:03 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books >In a message dated 10/6/02 2:33:56 AM, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: > ><< I've got a bit confused by this thread. Dan seemed to be arguing with > >himself that King didn't write his own books (at least that's the way it > >read to me) since when Alexander came up with the team of ghostwriters > >below, which Paul then refuted.>> > >No. Alexander, who is me, said that King didn't write many of his books >entirely, and more specifically ones in the past ten years. This is not >general knowledge. neither are most of the statements in the book i'm finishing right now, "the 60 greatest conspiracies of all time," but a good many of them are likely more fact-based than what you've been tossing out, i'm afraid. > >< >shedload of King there's a consistent narrative voice which would be > >difficult to reproduce in committee IMO. The man is just a word factory. > >Is there any objective evidence for this ghostwriter slur? Or is it just > >Internet tomfoolery?>> > >Actually it would be easy. You can use computer to analyse word usage. You >can have people writing pages of King parody. Then you can have King add >final touches. It's like Rodin in his later stages. He didn't make all those >statues. He had all those artists make things in the Rodin style and Rodin >signed them. I doubt if the better books like The Shining or The Stand were >written this way. It's well known that Jerzy Kozinki didn't write many of his >books. You can look that up. true enough. no one said it hasn't happened ... just that it seems highly unlikely that king is operating under a similar scenario. > > >< >touched by an editor in Alexander's sense but who desperately needs one. I > >mentioned here a few days ago giving up after 'It' which was about 400 pages > >longer than it needed to be and much of his stuff in the 10 years or so > >prior to that (not read any since) could have done with judicious pruning.>> > >Stephen King's major appeal is that he writes long if not simple books. You >can't have the blockbuster novel being only100 pages. King didn't listen to >some of his heroes like Borges or Poe who both thought all works of fiction >should be short: no more than 20 pages or could be read in one sitting. actually, i *would* say that his ideal length does seem to be about 100 pages -- look at the stories in different seasons & 4 past midnight, & esp. at "the mist." as for short stories per se, it's accepted wisdom that there's really not much of a market for them, & perhaps hasn't been since the pulps withered & died after world war II. even lovecraft (assuming he ever succumbed to the idea of being anything other than a "gentleman writer" crafting fiction mainly for his friends) would probably at least be aiming for "charles dexter ward" length every time out. dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:05:56 -0500 (CDT) From: voyteck@webtv.net Subject: [idealcopy] closet music What of REM's lyric: "everyone is gay", and the likes of Boy George or Soft Cell? I tend to believe sex drive (addiction) & loneliness (fear of?) are key factors in sexual preferences, albeit who a person feels comfortable with factors in. What of the guy who recently was arrested for sex with a tree?!? This one has me stumped! "Whistle while you screw" (twee, ta, twee, twee, twee, twee, twee) voyteck ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:11:14 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Editorial Direction and the True Artistic Vision >of course sometimes even a good editor is faced with a >work so dire that there is nothing to do but overhall >it. geez, i do that every day, albeit in 15-20-inch chunks for a daily newspaper. otherwise, my book-editing experience is limited to nonfiction (*everybody's* bookshelf features a copy of the university of arizona press' 1984 printing of nancy l. hamblin's "animal use by the cozumel maya," n'est-ce pas?), though right now i am applying myself to a surprisingly decent (so far, at least) historical novel one of my senior reporters hopes to get published. certainly the rules are a bit different between the two (fiction editors probably don't have to refer quite so often to the chicago manual or style &/or the mla handbook), but i still seriously, seriously doubt most of what alexander has said about good writers not needing editors. i also wonder what sort of background (another worthless literature degree?) is bringing this sort of truculence on ... not being nosy, just intrigued. dan ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 11:16:09 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] lost classic wow...i was just listening to The Blue Room (in it's full 40 minute glory) by the Orb...what a lovely collision of dub, space rock, ambient, and techno....i love the abuse of the children's toy piano about 13 minutes in.....so many nods to great artists everywhere you turn....the vocoder even turns up....moonwalking to The Blue Room..hmmmm i'll get me linoleum RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 16:36:30 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Real Books Vs. Fake Books Parklife! > Careful Keith....you know that quoting Blur lyrics conjures foul demons from > the pits...leave sleeping dragons to their slumber.. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:34:51 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By > I think you'll find,Robert,that 'IN GENERAL' Europeans are more tolerant than > we in the U.S,though of course there's always the occassional Frenchman with a > knife.........Ari That old wound still hurts does it Ari? ;-) Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 10:50:18 -0500 (CDT) From: voyteck@webtv.net Subject: [idealcopy] sex deviants Warning: Clicking on the following link may alter your respect & perspective of love / sex. Explicit abuse & exploitataion demeaning male / female anatomy within the band and audience occurs. If your happily married / mated (or other?), delete now & resume your time. However, this music style exists and may be playing in a club (closet) near you. You have been warned! voyteck http://www.genitorturers.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 17:53:38 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads >> The Great White Eagle? - we'd go there on a Sunday afternoon to "recover" >> after clubbing till 7am the night before > That's the one! Alistair and Bart please take note! In English?.... Noted! Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Oct 2002 12:07:56 -0400 From: "k erickson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Re: Long Books Keith: >>A good editor serves a useful purpose - not just in cutting stuff out, but >>firing the imagination of the writer. Obviously, the writer has to get past >>his own ego and realise that not every line they write is out of this >>world - and that even some lines that are great don't actually serve the >>story, they're just the writer showing off. If a degree of collaboration >>makes the work better, so be it - and any writer worth his salt would surely >>welcome that. this is pure Ellsworth Toohey (from Rand's 'The Fountainhead'). but his mission was to force collaboration and work-by-committee onto an artist; who decides whether collaboration would make a certain work better? if the artist freely chooses to be edited, so be it. but isn't it possible that some writers can produce the work entirely solo? Flaubert and Joyce meticulously edited their own works as part of their processes of writing. i'll stake a claim that ULYSSES, for example, could not have been 'edited' in the usual sense. seems likely the publishing houses, ever larger corporations, have a system in place to prevent such 'ego-driven' works from ever materialising! so your indignation is solidified into policy... Barbara: >.....and while I don't discount the pure joy that can be had reading a novel, >if you're truly looking for an epiphany, try Eastern Philosophy....instead of >over-stimulating your brain, empty it.... > "If you wish to drown, do not torture yourself >in shallow waters" > - Bulgarian >proverb if you're truly looking for an epiphany, you won't find it. when a fish meets the fishhook if she is too greedy, she will be caught when her mouth opens her life already is lost. -Mumon, the Gateless Gate Paul: >but why would you think people >hadn't read a novel by a woman , i don't understand? i wouldn't dream of >suggesting to a woman she'd never read a book by a man , it'd be a farcical >comment. you've run face-first into the hidden premise, Paul! how could a woman not have read a book by a man, in this sexist patriarchal culture? most works in the 'canon' are written by men, and the 'canon' is determined mostly by men, etc. it would be a farcical comment! Keith again: >I've never read it, so I can't comment. But are you really suggesting that >if Ulysses was being published today (other than by some vanity publishers) >then Joyce wouldn't have an editor. If so, you're deluding yourself mate. do you really intend to celebrate the fact that he couldn't get it published today without giving in to the 'system'? are you glad that no-one is allowed to have the temerity to say 'this is my work, as is, the way i intend it' and have the work published? i suppose you would admire the corporate music structure also then. the real analogy is about power: do artists (music or word) have the power to create on their own terms, or must they be mediated/ edited/ packaged without a choice? Alexander: >Stephen King's major appeal is that he writes long if not simple books. You >can't have the blockbuster novel being only100 pages. King didn't listen to >some of his heroes like Borges or Poe who both thought all works of fiction >should be short: no more than 20 pages or could be read in one sitting. King seems to be someone who probably works well in the system. he works a certain way that needs editing, and the results suit him (and the publishers). as for his heroes, his books probably borrow their ideas and transform them into his stock genre. that's fine too for what it is....by the way, don't overlook Poe's lone longer work: Narrative of Arthur Gordon Pym is ambitious and inventive. recommended! Dan: >certainly the rules are a bit different between the two (fiction editors >probably don't have to refer quite so often to the chicago manual or style >&/or the mla handbook), but i still seriously, seriously doubt most of what >alexander has said about good writers not needing editors. i also wonder >what sort of background (another worthless literature degree?) is bringing >this sort of truculence on ... yes, but who makes 'the rules'? what makes a writer 'good'? have you ever thought through the assumptions involved in your performance of editing? are you comfortable acting as an arbiter of style and taste according to 'rules' of almost arbitrary origin? i sure hope whoever made the Chicago Manual of Style didn't get anything wrong....to think i've been accepting certain conventions as 'correct' when it turns out someone made an error would be crushing. i wonder what sort of background is bringing on this sort of truculence...(cognitive dissonance?) kristoph - ---------- ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #341 *******************************