From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #340 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, October 6 2002 Volume 05 : Number 340 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Powys (& Pynchon) ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Re: Long Books [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books [Bart van Damme ] [idealcopy] Dead Man Ray vs Colin Newman ["Jan Noorda" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books ["dan bailey" ] [idealcopy] Pink Flag Coverband [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] Pink Flag Coverband ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] Uri??? ["John M Campbell" ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books [Superflyww9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books [Superflyww9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books ["Paul Pietromonaco" ] [idealcopy] Oswaldian Space.htm///click on the "u".. scroll down to blast first/cd "deconstruct"..anyone have these?? [] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books ["Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Powys (& Pynchon) How about Wyndham Lewis? Anyone read any? I recall Mark E Smith saying in interview years ago that he was a fan. Haven't got any Lewis myself and rarely see any. Talking further of undervalued British writers (and picking up the simultaneously running experimenta thread as well) it's good to see B S Johnson is coming back into print. He's the writer who published a novel (The Unfortunates) in separately bound chapters which can be read in any order bar the first and the last. Jonathan Coe is about to publish a biography so Picador are reissuing some of his long out of print works in tandem. I went to see some of Johnson's short films at the ICA a few weeks back and they were great, especially Fat Man on a Beach which is one of the most original TV programmes ever broadcast in this country. another the Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Short To: Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 11:00 PM Subject: [idealcopy] Powys (& Pynchon) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mark Short" > To: "Garry P" > Sent: Friday, October 04, 2002 10:37 PM > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Powys (& Pynchon) > > > > > > > > > Bart asked: "...any of you ever read anything by John Cowper Powys?" > > > > > > Yes, I've read most of his novels. I think 'Wolf Solent' would be my > > > favourite, and 'Glastonbury Romance' is right up there too. It's > peculiar > > > that his work is so neglected - maybe it's partly down to him being such > > an > > > obscure character. There's a full biography on the way, which may help > > his > > > public profile a bit - it's being written by Morine Krissdottir, who > wrote > > the > > > best study I know of him, 'John Cowper Powys and the Magical Quest'. > > > > > > GarryP > > > > > Wolf Solent was the first Powys book I read, and I liked its Stanley > Spencer > > vibe. Not long afterwards, AGlastonbury Romance was reprinted, and I got > to > > about page 700 (out of about 1000) and had to bail out. The book wandered > > about getting nowhere slowly. This may be one reason why JCP is neglected > > these days - he's just too heavy going. Also, his main themes seems to be > > religious, which isn't going to turn too many people on these days. > > > > In the UK most of his books are out of print. At one time (not sure when) > > the boss of a shirt manufacturing company subsidised the publication of > his > > books. > > > > Mark S ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 12:31:11 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT Belgian mannekens! >> Indeed Bart (thanks for the dEUS reminder - I'm a big fan) me too. Anybody know what they're up to? AndyL ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 13:45:36 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Powys > about page 700 (out of about 1000) and had to bail out. The book wandered > about getting nowhere slowly. This may be one reason why JCP is neglected > these days - he's just too heavy going. Heavy going on what exactly Mark? > Also, his main themes seems to be religious, which isn't going to turn too > many people on these days. Hmmm, I disagree here, His "religion" is very much a paganistic one wich seems to be quite a popular theme nowadays. I see him in the tradition of Giordano Bruno and William Blake, with his sexual obsessions as a bonus. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 14:08:41 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Re: Long Books Keith [another the]: > I bought A Glastonbury Romance 25 years ago about the same time as Ulysses > and the Magic Mountain but have I ever read them? No. So perhaps my > bewailing not reading enough has been a longstanding problem! Join the Club! ;-) For years I've been wanting to put my teeth in Powys' the Meaning of Culture, but can't seem to find the time nor the concentration to do so. Mind you, some would argue Wolf Solent probably is a better [or perhaps just easier] start to his work than a Glastonbury Romance. I haven't heard Hesse being mentioned yet as a classic. I've reread his Demian earlier this year wich made me reminisce my artschool years. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 14:23:58 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Belgian muziekmannekens! >> Indeed Bart (thanks for the dEUS reminder - I'm a big fan) > me too. Anybody know what they're up to? http://www.deus.be The site hasn't been updated since last June, though it changed quite a bit since I last visited. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 14:51:00 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books >> Hundreds of references? This Joyce guy should better learn HTML then :) > similarly, i'd rather listen to the fall or even shampoo than, say, > beethoven. if that makes me a dunce, color me guilty. An avant-la-lettre postmodernist like Joyce could imo perhaps sooner be compared with a fellow quoting artist like Sjostakovich than good ol' solid B'hoven. Bart NP: The Fall - Oxymoron [you pep! oh yeah] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 15:36:32 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books > Joyce might be smarter, > a better writer, more intelligent - but I'll prefer King any moment :) Well, it's hard to compare innit? Bit like comparing Peter Greenaway to Spielberg. Btw, that film Minority Report ain't half bad - imo even a better Dick-film than Bladerunner. > Think about - what is the music that has hundreds of references in each note > called? Potpourri, if I'm not mistaken. Or maybe Elastica :) Quoting has had a long tradition in the all of the arts. One can only debate the quality in wich a work is done, but calling Joyce's style potpourri seems a bit silly. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:37:38 -0000 From: "Jan Noorda" Subject: [idealcopy] Dead Man Ray vs Colin Newman Yes there it is. Found the Web-site of www.deadmanray.com Mentioned here their latest cds and/or ten inch called LANDSLIDE with two extra mixes. One made by Colin Newman and one by Atom brought out by Virgin rec. Up to My Local store. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 15:00:55 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books > >> Hundreds of references? This Joyce guy should better learn HTML then :) > > > similarly, i'd rather listen to the fall or even shampoo than, say, > > beethoven. if that makes me a dunce, color me guilty. Only on IC could Shampoo get a mention on the same page as Beethoven and Joyce... Makes you feel kinda proud, doesn't it!!! Actually I was reading somewhere that someone pretty famous wrotew their stuff using a pseudonym, but in a rare anorak lapse, I can't bloody remember who it was now... Uh oh, I'm in trouble! Still, why this obsession with LONG books? The Outsider (L'Etranger) is probably only just over a hundred pages, but it said more to me than most novels three times as long. Keith NP the free Blue Room cd with this months Muzik magazine... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:58:44 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books On Sat, Oct 05, 2002 at 03:00:55PM +0100, Keith Astbury wrote: > > The Outsider (L'Etranger) is probably only just over a hundred pages, but it > said more to me than most novels three times as long. Short books: the obvious two to mention are "Animal Farm (A Fairy Story)", by George Orwell, and the previously mentioned "A Clockwork Orange"... - - Andrew - -- "Any day now, how's about getting out of this place anyway; got a lot of spare time, some of my youth, and all of my senses on overdrive " - Elbow, "Any Day Now" ('Asleep In The Back') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:36:15 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books >> > similarly, i'd rather listen to the fall or even shampoo than, say, >> > beethoven. if that makes me a dunce, color me guilty. > >Only on IC could Shampoo get a mention on the same page as Beethoven and >Joyce... > >Makes you feel kinda proud, doesn't it!!! Actually I was reading somewhere >that someone pretty famous wrotew their stuff using a pseudonym, but in a >rare anorak lapse, I can't bloody remember who it was now... stephen king? (cf that line in glam-racket, "you're the best song i've ever heard by stephen king," assuming i'm remembering it correctly.) after all, now that we've been informed he doesn't even write his own books, surely he has the time ... dan, just waking up from a dream in which the latterday misfits & post-deaths ramones were playing opposite sides of the same auditorium ... > >Uh oh, I'm in trouble! > >Still, why this obsession with LONG books? > >The Outsider (L'Etranger) is probably only just over a hundred pages, but it >said more to me than most novels three times as long. > >Keith > >NP the free Blue Room cd with this months Muzik magazine... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:37:06 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books >In a message dated 10/3/02 11:27:48 PM, dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: > ><< given my undoubtedly pitiable disinterest in virtually all non-genre > >fiction, probably the only 800-plus-page works of fiction i've ever read are > >stephen king's the stand & it. >> > >Stephen King doesn't even write his own books. so who does? harlan ellison? dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 16:42:03 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: [idealcopy] Pink Flag Coverband On a sad note.... Just found out this week that the person who initiated the Pink Flag Coverband in Groningen [who's concert Jan and myself have reviewed earlier] has died and that the band will not play anymore out of respect. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 09:51:23 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books sorry -- still recovering from sleep ... undoubtedly the creator in question is keith levene, who after all has taken credit for everything else done over the last 25 years or so. dan >>In a message dated 10/3/02 11:27:48 PM, dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: >> >><< given my undoubtedly pitiable disinterest in virtually all non-genre >> >>fiction, probably the only 800-plus-page works of fiction i've ever read >are >> >>stephen king's the stand & it. >> >> >>Stephen King doesn't even write his own books. > > >so who does? harlan ellison? > >dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:46:55 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Pink Flag Coverband > On a sad note.... > > Just found out this week that the person who initiated the Pink Flag > Coverband in Groningen [who's concert Jan and myself have reviewed earlier] > has died and that the band will not play anymore out of respect. > > Bart I only found out yesterday that Tim Rose (a hero of Nick Cave) died a couple of weeks ago. I haven't got any of his albums, but his performance of Hey Joe on Later a few years ago was truly amazing. One minute he was anaffable old bloke with a beard, chatting merrily to Jools, the next he was like a man possessed, singing a song he's probably sung a million times before as if his life depended on it. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 17:40:10 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] OT - Short Books AndrewW... >Short books: the obvious two to mention are "Animal Farm (A Fairy Story)", >by George Orwell, and the previously mentioned "A Clockwork Orange"... in addition... how about 'Catcher In The Rye' and 'Breakfast Of Champions'...? ...and i'm with whoever it was that mentioned 'The Outsider'...had a big effect on me as a youth... ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 10:28:06 -0700 From: "John M Campbell" Subject: [idealcopy] Uri??? Hey Uri, Are you out there amigo, I have a question Cheers, johnc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 13:57:17 EDT From: Superflyww9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books In a message dated 10/5/02 5:51:47 AM, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: << Only on IC could Shampoo get a mention on the same page as Beethoven and Joyce... >> Here's an interview with Shampoo: http://www.freewilliamsburg.com/april_2001/shampoo.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 14:00:23 EDT From: Superflyww9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books In a message dated 10/5/02 6:37:28 AM, dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: << >Stephen King doesn't even write his own books. so who does? harlan ellison? >> For years he has had a team of ghostwriters writing in the King Style. Even after he supposedly retired, he has still published three books. Any writer who doesn't write his own books, or who needs an editor, should be de-published. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 11:44:06 -0700 From: "Paul Pietromonaco" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Long Books > << >Stephen King doesn't even write his own books. > so who does? harlan ellison? >> > > For years he has had a team of ghostwriters writing in the King Style. Even > after he supposedly retired, he has still published three books. Any writer > who doesn't write his own books, or who needs an editor, should be > de-published. Hmmm - this really sounds like an urban legend to me. I'm not saying you're wrong here - it's just that every account and interview I've read with the man seem to indicate he's just a prodigious writer. As for publishing after retirement, according to what I've read, he will release "From a Buick 8", then three more installments of the "Dark Tower" series, and then - that's it. He said that he'll continue to write, but he's gonna stop publishing. (There's a really good interview with King in Entertainment Weekly: Issue #674, Sept. 27, 2002 edition. You can probably see most of it on line at http://www.ew.com ). Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 19:46:03 +0100 From: "DAVID HEALE" Subject: [idealcopy] Oswaldian Space.htm///click on the "u".. scroll down to blast first/cd "deconstruct"..anyone have these?? Oswaldian Space ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 20:49:40 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books > << >Stephen King doesn't even write his own books. > > For years he has had a team of ghostwriters writing in the King Style. Even > after he supposedly retired, he has still published three books. Any writer > who doesn't write his own books, or who needs an editor, should be > de-published. It's one thing not WRITING a book you've claimed to (though I too have reservations about this story), but are you really suggesting that writers shouldn't use editors??? That's a ludicrous suggestion if you don't mine me saying. A good editor serves a useful purpose - not just in cutting stuff out, but firing the imagination of the writer. Obviously, the writer has to get past his own ego and realise that not every line they write is out of this world - and that even some lines that are great don't actually serve the story, they're just the writer showing off. If a degree of collaboration makes the work better, so be it - and any writer worth his salt would surely welcome that. You wouldn't suggest that a singer getting a decent producer in is wrong would you. Should Chairs Missing be 'de-released'??? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:02:35 EDT From: bsajrisin3@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads In a message dated 10/5/02 2:55:56 AM !!!First Boot!!!, rayographique@yahoo.com writes: > i > thought the device was brilliant > but at that time i was busy proving that i was smarter > than the majority of the world > the wisdom of age reveals that the significant > comparison is the minority who number in the millions > worldwide and are way more fucking brilliant than you > ever might hope to be > and most of them are not novelists, i assure you > > ....ahhh, thank you, that was truly breathtaking.....as a woman and a feminist who merely skims these lists for information related to the music I love, occasionally I'll get pulled into one of these argumentative threads, in the hope that I might find someone who has a perspective that sits above the ordinary....dan bailey is one of my favourites, unpretentious, honest wit goes a long way with this woman.....and now I'll be sure and check in with "ray" too..... Have you boys ever wondered why more women don't hang out "here" with you? Speaking only for myself, you're juvenile objectifying of females as some sort of collected accoutrements in your world, tolerated only to impress your other male friends (witness a recent whine of "my girlfriend is so stupid she doesn't know anything about music, but we all agree she has the best legs in town" - nonsense that went on for well over a week)....ever stop to think that your pride in having such great taste in music, so eclectic!, compares to your bog-standard cliche choice in women? There are plenty of smart females who love great music, maybe their looks don't impress your contemporaries, hmm? yawn.... FYI - I'm an "original" WIRE fan from the late 70's through now....I lived on my own in London and went alone to gigs 3 or 4 times a week during the early 80's, surrounded by boys with in long overcoats or short leather jackets, in twos and and groups of more....I travelled to Europe to see great bands in better clubs - love Antwerp and know the wonderful pub you speak of - The Great White Eagle? - we'd go there on a Sunday afternoon to "recover" after clubbing till 7am the night before....don't even get me started on Leonidas chocolates! I still read, but now it's mostly non-fiction, related to the corporate globalisation that threatens life on the planet as we know it.....I'm not opposed to "great literature" or even "big books", but if you've never read a novel by a woman, dudes, you're missing a great chunk of truth.....want to read about the effects of religion on humanity? Try "Possessing the Secret of Joy" by Alice Walker.... .....and while I don't discount the pure joy that can be had reading a novel, if you're truly looking for an epiphany, try Eastern Philosophy....instead of over-stimulating your brain, empty it.... "If you wish to drown, do not torture yourself in shallow waters" - Bulgarian proverb cheers boys...play nice....(barbara) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:15:43 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads In a message dated 05/10/2002 21:03:17 GMT Daylight Time, bsajrisin3@aol.com writes: > "If you wish to drown, do not torture yourself > in shallow waters" > - Bulgarian > proverb > > cheers boys...play nice....(barbara) > Wow, what are you doing later Barbara ? Chris (42 & also an original Wire 77 disciple).-- Shit I'm married ! PS.will be in Brighton Nov 7th if you fancy a beer. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 16:44:45 EDT From: bsajrisin3@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads In a message dated 10/5/02 8:16:22 PM !!!First Boot!!!, CHRISWIRE@aol.com writes: > Wow, > what are you doing later Barbara ? > Chris (42 & also an original Wire 77 disciple).-- Shit I'm married ! > > PS.will be in Brighton Nov 7th if you fancy a beer. > > > Later I'm writing up a research paper on the global privatisation of water, then I'm meeting some friends for dinner....It might be fun to meet you - and your wife - in Brighton Nov 7th for a beer, but I'm currently living in the dreaded USA, Portland, Oregon to be exact (it's a dirty job, but someone has to keep it stirred up here!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 18:44:04 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads Speaking only for myself, you're juvenile objectifying of females as some sort of collected accoutrements in your world, tolerated only to impress your other male friends (witness a recent whine of "my girlfriend is so stupid she doesn't know anything about music, but we all agree she has the best legs in town" - nonsense that went on for well over a week) /////er , i do recall a few comments about "humorous" mistakes made by female(and male) acquaintances , but i completely fail to recall anybody hanging anything sexist onto the ends of those tales in the way you're suggesting. did that really happen and i just missed it? ....ever stop to think > > that your pride in having such great taste in music, so eclectic!, compares > > to your bog-standard cliche choice in women? ///// i can't recall many listers treating us to their preferred choices of women. i mean , i will if you want..............but seriously , i don't see how you come to that conclusion at all from what's actually been said. again , did i miss something? There are plenty of smart > > females who love great music, maybe their looks don't impress your > contemporaries, hmm? yawn.... ////// and that's what you think we all want to do , impress contemporaries with attractive women? really?? sounds a bit like a "bog standard cliche" to be honest. and anyway , on these lists nobody needs to know what the hell anybody looks like so aren't we all by definition judged on what we're saying rather than anything physical? just a thought ....... > I still read, but now it's mostly non-fiction, related to the > corporate globalisation that threatens life on the planet as we know > it.....I'm not opposed to "great literature" or even "big books", but if > you've never read a novel by a woman, dudes, you're missing a great chunk > of > truth..... //////read plenty , some of which were great , some rubbish , and plenty in between.......much like male authors possibly? but why would you think people hadn't read a novel by a woman , i don't understand? i wouldn't dream of suggesting to a woman she'd never read a book by a man , it'd be a farcical comment. do all books by women contain this "truth"? in current culture there is a huge trend to infantilise maleness , endless inane product (ads , sitcoms , books , mags , movies) full of male characters incapable of any form of maturity. usually used for a cheap easy laugh or to sell something (often , i guess , to women). really sexist , really stupid , but considered to be an acceptable thing to do. some men are like that , many of course are not. you seem to be making some sweeping generalisations of this type about a lot of very different people , of the sort i'm sure you'd (quite rightly) hate to have made about "women". these don't seem to me to stack up with the vast majority of what's ever been said here. > .....and while I don't discount the pure joy that can be had reading a > novel, > if you're truly looking for an epiphany, try Eastern Philosophy....instead > of > over-stimulating your brain, empty it.... ////i've been looking for one for a long time. but not there :-) > "If you wish to drown, do not torture yourself > in shallow waters" > - Bulgarian > proverb > ///// but if my mind is empty , it won't matter will it? > cheers boys...play nice....(barbara ////// i'll continue to try. shame you can't make brighton to judge the level of chat for yourself , might be interesting :-) hate to get sserious you know , not always in my nature but sometimes it does indeed happen. p ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:24:04 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads >>I'm not opposed to "great literature" or even "big books", but if > you've never read a novel by a woman, dudes, you're missing a great chunk > of > truth..... //////read plenty , some of which were great , some rubbish , and plenty in between......<< And like me, you no doubt can't wait to get your hands on the literary debut of, er, Louise Wener. It's about "indie bands", y'know.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:32:17 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] speaking of the fall ... > >>////saw 'em last night in gloucester , very good stuff.<< A set which included (wait for it) The Classical and mere Pseud Mag Ed. Nearest thing to a retrospective show. MES looking (a) clean And (b) sober - apparently due to yet another wife....who appeared to be an 18-year-old goth (predictably, she played 2-fingered keyboards on a couple of songs).... I'd also disagree with recent Rowlandesque acusations that the current line-up is a "Fall tribute band". They're getting very good. Dr Buck's Letter now sounds like Led Zeppelin. >> they were selling a > new release MES spoken word CD but i don't think it > was called "listening".<< It's called Panda! Pander! Panzer! For all things Fall-related go to www.visi.com/fall Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:34:50 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT - Short Books >>...and i'm with whoever it was that mentioned 'The Outsider'...had a big effect on me as a youth...<< Same here... I studied that for my French A-level. Imagine my surprise at hearing The Cure's first single around that time... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:36:13 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Go to Bed In a message dated 10/3/02 02:22:44 GMT Daylight Time, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: > >>>>I still maintain that Morris's drumming was *massively* influential, but > it > seems that I credited the wrong guy. > > Gotobed?<< JD may have copped some moves from Wire, but I'd say the drumming was about as different as you could get... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 22:41:02 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By > >>Agreed on the League's new stuff - the rot set in for me in the one-off > Xmas > special of a couple of years ago which was similar in format to the new > series. It's pure grotesquerie now, not really funny at all.<< 1st episode was very dark. Apparently all 6 episodes of this series are set in the same timeframe - each one comes together at the same end point and teh whole thing makes sense only after you've seen all six.... getting conceptual on our ass... > >>The Office, however, is even better this time round on the evidence of > episode 1. Having worked in an office for 20 odd years what is strange to > me is how little I recognise of the people and situations I've worked with > / > been in but it's still bloody funny because it's great comedy of > embarrassment which is funny irrespective of the realism of the situation. > Alan Partridge is another in this vein of course.<< Absolutely toe-curling. I've certainly worked in offices with a fair share of dickheads. You have to have worked with salesmen to get that sort of effect I think.... The other superb comedy of teh year has been Phoenix Nights. Jerry St Clair's 'Young at heart' CD track list was phenomenal... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 2002 23:24:16 EDT From: Superflyww9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books In a message dated 10/5/02 11:40:53 AM, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: << You wouldn't suggest that a singer getting a decent producer in is wrong would you. Should Chairs Missing be 'de-released'??? >> Some people of this list keep making comparison with making music to writing books. It's a false analogy. I know people who have been involved with the publishing of writers like Samuel Beckett and Vladimir Nabokov. When they were given to an editor, he didn't edit those books, he copy-edited them, looking for misspellings. What they turned in were like final proofs. James Joyce didn't have an editor on Ulysses either. Of course people who are lousy writers and who can't spell and have bad sentence structure need editors. Alexander Laurence ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 01:59:01 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long books and Longer Threads In a message dated 10/4/02 10:55:56 PM, rayographique@yahoo.com writes: << and 'experimental writing' - what like cut-ups - no that theory is well explored - stream of conciousness - the same >> true, yet they're both excellent examples of experimentation, one with the laws of chance and the other with the subconscious. then there are people who label things experimental, simply because they have no prior knowledge of what they're seeing/hearing and can't think of anything else to call the art. i'm not a big fan of labeling either, because of the tendancy to pigeonhole and also because of how often mislabeling occurs (the latter of which goes right back to the 'experimental' example). 20 years ago, my band was rehearsing in a school gym while the fencing club was waiting outside for us to finish. when we were all done making an incredible amount of noise over a repetitive minimal riff, the first couple of fencing guys (fencers?) comes up to me and says "wow, you guys sound like jimi hendrix"...so basically he could only compare what he had just heard to the "noisiest" music he knew. he seemed to genuinely like it, so he probably thought it would've been rude to say we sounded like english police sirens (ya know, wah woo wah woo wah woo wah woo), which was a much more accurate description. :o) another the paul ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 03:47:10 EDT From: Superflyww9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Powys (& Pynchon) In a message dated 10/5/02 3:17:32 AM, steeleknight@lineone.net writes: << How about Wyndham Lewis? Anyone read any? I recall Mark E Smith saying in interview years ago that he was a fan. Haven't got any Lewis myself and rarely see any. >> I read The Apes of God many years ago. He was a great artist. What else? Malign Fiesta. The Rotting Age was good. Alexander www.theinterpol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 09:24:02 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Long Books > << You wouldn't suggest that a singer getting a decent producer in is wrong > would you. Should Chairs Missing be 'de-released'??? >> > > Some people of this list keep making comparison with making music to writing > books. I was just trying to highlight what a preposterous statement you had made. And literature and music are both 'arts' aren't they? > It's a false analogy. Is it? Why - cos Nabokov was a great 'artist' and Nick Drake was just a bloke with a guitar? >I know people who have been involved with the > publishing of writers like Samuel Beckett and Vladimir Nabokov. When they > were given to an editor, he didn't edit those books, he copy-edited them, > looking for misspellings. What they turned in were like final proofs. And I suspect that these people are knocking on a bit now and take great delight in telling you how much better things were in the old days. They were probably first drafts as well, you know. Dream on... > James Joyce didn't have an editor on Ulysses either. I've never read it, so I can't comment. But are you really suggesting that if Ulysses was being published today (other than by some vanity publishers) then Joyce wouldn't have an editor. If so, you're deluding yourself mate. > Of course people who are lousy > writers and who can't spell and have bad sentence structure need editors. You seem to have some unreal vision of what editors are all about. Some utopian 'writer great' / 'editor unwanted interfering arse' ideal. Name a current author who does not use an editor in ANY form. I would have thought that most writers use their wife/husband/friend to edit or overview their work before it even reaches the publishers. Should they be 'de-published' as well? Editors do not just work with writers who "can't spell" and who can't construct a sentence'. Who are these writers? And are they also too thick to use spellcheck??? Keith ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #340 *******************************