From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #331 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Saturday, September 28 2002 Volume 05 : Number 331 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Punk Ruck does not exist [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V5 #329 ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] I Ain't Bin To No History School ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States ["John M Campbell" ] Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States ["jaime janzen" ] Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States ["dan bailey" ] Re: [idealcopy] us them they we i me my [rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Punk Ruck does not exist Superfly wrote: > It's just false sentimentality that people still listen to old songs. > They are not hearing them in their proper historical context. or earlier and strikingly similar: > I like how most people just ignore what is on screen. They have no > familiarity with MIchael Winterbottom's other films. "People"... "They"... That's an impressive angry young man's act you've developped here. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:33:13 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] OT socks > punk was born in the north > think it rose from the south? stick a sock in your mouth! Punkrock socks? ;-) Reminds me of that great classic by Splodgenessabounds. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:57:46 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: idealcopy-digest V5 #329 > Re. any criticism of France - if I was French I'd be saying 'better climate, > better looking women, better looking men, better wine, more chateaux, ability > and willingness to defend own culture against anglo-american depredations, > ...' > > Howard Absolutely. I liked France before last visit, but this was the year I REALLY fell in love with the place (Loire / Brittany)... Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:07:58 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By > >hey britain - now that the teletbbies are mainstream > >stateside - what 'cha got in store for us next? Have you got the Tweenies yet? My son LOVES them. The girls are a bit girlie but the boys are pretty cool - Milo has spiky hair and Jake has a bright yellow Mohican. Next up is the Fimbles - starts Monday. Big stripy creatures and a them tune that - according to todays Times -sounds like a poor Lightning Seeds b-side. Moving away from the kids stuff.... Wasn't so keen the on the first episode of the new series of League Of Gentlemen last night. *Some* good moments but it didn't quite cut it for me. REALLY looking forward to the new The Office next week though. Thought series one was the best UK comedy since I'm Alan Partridge and Father Ted. Classic stuff. Keith NP DJ Shadow - Private Press ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:10:37 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Shite Hype > > Sounds like a hyped up load of retro toss with a > > singer as irritating as that > > tit from ABC. > > and at least martin fry never really took hissef > serious is this a good moment to say I thought the last ABC album was pretty good? no, thought not... Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:40:22 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] I Ain't Bin To No History School > It's just false > sentimentality that people still listen to old songs. They are not hearing > them in their proper historical context. How do you know how I listen to old songs!!! Example. If I play, say, Ain't Bin To No Music School, do I have to think about what where The Nosebleeds came from and wonder what inspired them to write it? Do I need to recall that Savage Pencil made it single of the week in Sounds in August 1977 (the month Elvis died of course) - just pipping the final Bolan single Celebrate Summer btw - and that I first heard it at my mates Pauls who was a Bowie loving punk? Should I wonder - in amazement - at how such a wimpy looking bloke like Vini could make such a great racket on his gtr (and concern myself with why his subsequent career was built on something entirely different). Or can I just enjoy it as a great punk thrash please? A lot of the old music I listen to (particularly reggae) is stuff that's new to me. There's no sentimentality involved there. I just like it. And if I get an urge to play Pink Flag or The Slider or Ain't Bin To No Music School or anything else I've liked a long time, well so what - I like 'em! I'm sorry if this is a bit sarcastic, but I'm enough of an anorak without having to listen to everything in a 'historical bloody context'. Honestly, I do not need to refresh all the useless shit that swims around my useless brain! It takes care of itself ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 06:55:01 -0400 From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] IC (OT) Music To Sell Things By > Next up is the Fimbles - starts Monday. Big stripy creatures and a them tune > that - according to todays Times -sounds like a poor Lightning Seeds b-side. ////you mean as opposed to all those great lightning seeds b-sides? their version of outdoor miner is still in the top 5 worst wire covers ever , but competition remains very stiff. > > > REALLY looking forward to the new The Office next week though. Thought > series one was the best UK comedy since I'm Alan Partridge > and Father Ted. ////you know i've not seen that yet. from descriptions i've heard it sounds worryingly close to the place i spend a lot of time in , i must try to catch this new series.... p ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:08:20 +0100 From: Trevor Dutton Subject: [idealcopy] RE: idealcopy-digest V5 #330 Well I know I have heard White Stripes - and I think I can confirm that it is having the desired affect; I was playing R & B 01 the other day when my 6 year old daughter said 'this sounds like the "I am the fly" band'. I was so proud. Trev - ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 26 Sep 2002 23:27:55 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] nord/sud > > The UK dad's amongst you may have noticed that the BBC are using No Fun to > > advertise Ceebees (childrens BBC programmes). Little kid dancing to it I > > think. > > How great is that - toddlers all over the country being exposed to one of > > the great riffs of all time at such a tender age! > > > ////well yes , what a truly great channel ceebeebees is , beth is a big fan. > but shurely the track used on that ad is the white stripes "fell in love with > a girl" (the one where the toddler paints a dali spoof)? or is there > another.......p obviously another. DEFINITELY heard No Fun this morning. Cut to something else and then went back to No Fun IRC. Whoever's behind all this deserves a pat on the back IMO! Keith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 15:32:00 +0100 From: "Sheridan Cooper's" Subject: [idealcopy] Car ads I'm sticking with you, faithfully covered for Huyndia. I imagine would have made more money than the Velvets did in their entire career. Also aren't the Violent Femmes advetising a car in the UK. Whatever next, the Delta Five or Fatal Microbes selling cleaning fluids ! Andy ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:52:22 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States In a message dated 9/26/02 5:39:32 PM Central Daylight Time, Arzach@msn.com writes: << It's just that I feel we're neglected as an entity and I feel the need to represent Le WEST as a true entity with a demography with much less to share than you Easterners.have(civil war, the slavery issue, funny accents, competetive natures) We here recognise our colonial nature and naturally feel less inclined to feel united. I DO NOT mean this in anything so boring as a political sense. Just remember, nomatter how many you send in an attempt to dilute us, our capacity to absorbe and mutate is well nigh infinite. Bless us all & Cheeze, johnc >> oh boo hoo...the west is neglected....hahahaha what a laugh...the whole united states is constantly bombarded by the notion that the west is "where it's at"...mass exodus to Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, Portland and now Phoenix is the new "happening" place...give me a break! the midwest and the south is constantly pissed on and forgotten about.... RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 16:07:56 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] the little girls understand On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 04:43:15PM -0500, Miles Goosens wrote: > the list. Speak up, ye twentysomethings! Well, I'm 21, so... a) REM. Specifically their cover of "Strange"... also the number of Britpop and, *particularly*, post-rock bands citing them as an influence. b) Curiosity; articles in the press sounded interesting. c) liking Joy Division and others of Wire's (chronological) peers. You all knew that anyway. :) - - Andrew - -- "I see your autosuggestion psychology, elimination policy A military-industrial illusion of democracy..." - - Primal Scream, 'Swastika Eyes' ("Xtrmntr") adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:51:17 -0700 From: "John M Campbell" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States Dear George I don't recall putting any 'Region' down and, as I recall, that was the discussion - not cities. Nor am I attempting to point a spotlight at the relative intelligence or breeding of the inhabitants of any Region I think we're all able to do that ourselves in what we put here. I think we may be on different threads. I think the Midwest has its own gripes, that's another region. I am however a snob. I don't know why that should bother you. I also wonder whether the people of the South are as pleased about an alliance with you may think. What exactly does this last bit mean? Is it meant to be verbal abuse, or are you 'kidding' congress waits for evidence or a bribe, or something cheers, johnc - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 7:47 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States > In a message dated 9/26/02 6:15:50 PM Central Daylight Time, Arzach@msn.com > writes: > > << You know, on rereading this I've come to a sneakig suspicion that George > Dumbaya may be on the list using RL's hadle... > Notice how he first wants to sanction us 'leave Los Angeles out of > everything ' ahem, poor chappy' Los Angeles is but a small part of the > est - many people feel the West extends from the Rocky Mts. to the Pacific > coast. Call us by a name we are not familiar with(Scumsville?)and finally > annhillate us as a people. Next we'll no doubt be referred to as traitors > for not accepting his policies > cheer, 'ol potato, johnc >> > > > actually i live in the gateway to the west...i know full well what is > considered the west, thank you very very much....and furthermore, i was > kidding about the destruction and not kidding about my distaste for Los > Angeles...a disgusting, superficial place if ever there was one...i have > absolutely no problem whatsoever with the rest of the west....i do have a > problem with snobby people from Los Angels or New York who act as if those of > us in the midwest and the south are a lower form of human being and do not > matter....and as for comparing me to George W. Bush... > > fuck off > and buy some fake tits > > RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:56:51 -0700 From: "John M Campbell" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States Gosh a message so nice he sent it twice! well, I'm off to do something nice whatever fuck off is.......wish me luck cheers, johnc - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 7:52 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States > In a message dated 9/26/02 5:39:32 PM Central Daylight Time, Arzach@msn.com > writes: > > << It's just that I feel we're neglected as an entity and I feel the need to > represent Le WEST as a true entity with a demography with much less to share > than you Easterners.have(civil war, the slavery issue, funny accents, > competetive natures) We here recognise our colonial nature and naturally > feel less inclined to feel united. I DO NOT mean this in anything so boring > as a political sense. > Just remember, nomatter how many you send in an attempt to dilute us, our > capacity to absorbe and mutate is well nigh infinite. > Bless us all & Cheeze, johnc >> > > oh boo hoo...the west is neglected....hahahaha what a laugh...the whole > united states is constantly bombarded by the notion that the west is "where > it's at"...mass exodus to Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, Portland and > now Phoenix is the new "happening" place...give me a break! the midwest and > the south is constantly pissed on and forgotten about.... > > RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 08:43:59 -0800 From: "jaime janzen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States ><< It's just that I feel we're neglected as an entity and I feel the need >to > represent Le WEST as a true entity with a demography with much less to >share > than you Easterners.have(civil war, the slavery issue, funny accents, > competetive natures) We here recognise our colonial nature and naturally > feel less inclined to feel united. I DO NOT mean this in anything so >boring > as a political sense. > Just remember, nomatter how many you send in an attempt to dilute us, >our > capacity to absorbe and mutate is well nigh infinite. > Bless us all & Cheeze, johnc >> > >oh boo hoo...the west is neglected....hahahaha what a laugh...the whole >united states is constantly bombarded by the notion that the west is "where >it's at"...mass exodus to Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, Portland and >now Phoenix is the new "happening" place...give me a break! the midwest and >the south is constantly pissed on and forgotten about.... > >RL Ok, I have to answer that one. I'm from Phoenix, and this is definately the 'happening' place to be, if you like being able to fry eggs on your head while standing in shade. As far as the onslaught of newbies appearing here, I can't argue with that. Jaime _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:24:50 -0700 From: Michael Halsted Subject: [idealcopy] WIRE in SF / WIRE video ...at the end of the show Lewis yelled out something; was it "Go see Robert Plant"? (Robert Plant was also playing that evening at [probably] The Shoreline Amp- itheatre) I'm trying to figure out if I imagined it or not. ...and whatever happened to the video made for one of the R&B tracks? - The only thing that I've seen is the claustrophobic-looking signed photo. Has anyone seen it? ================ - -Michael Halsted halsted@ilm.com- ================ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:33:40 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States oh, c'mon -- what a silly pissing contest, albeit one to which i seem to have inadvertantly helped contribute. robert, surely you're above such things. as for phoenix, i lived there (if you lump in tempe & mesa as well, not to mention the summer of '83 in tucson) from 8/81-5/84 while i went to grad school in u.s. history at asu. loved every moment of it -- great record shops (sticking to wire alone, i've gloated before about finding the dot dash, outdoor miner & our swimmer 7"s for $2 or less, & the crazy about love 12" new for $5), possibly the best eatery in the country (restaurant mexico, formerly on mill ave in tempe -- dan rose, we both found out to our surprise a few months ago off-list, agrees with me on that one), some excellent shows (though apparently all sorts of personal faves of mine resisted the temptation of playing the valley till i had moved back to darkest arkansas), some top-notch local bands (the nervous, international language [george dillon, r.i.p.], tone set, etc). i haven't set foot in the place in going on 18 1/2 years, unfortunately, & obviously quite a few things have changed, but still, my memories remain fond, & i'd love to visit again just to see what things are like these days. dan btw -- if you ever happen to come across in a used record shop or wherever an old early '80s cassette by a band called inc., snap it up. i never heard it, but it contained a cover of blessed state. (i *think* it was inc -- may've been metal monkey instead.) >><< It's just that I feel we're neglected as an entity and I feel the need >>to >> represent Le WEST as a true entity with a demography with much less to >>share >> than you Easterners.have(civil war, the slavery issue, funny accents, >> competetive natures) We here recognise our colonial nature and naturally >> feel less inclined to feel united. I DO NOT mean this in anything so >>boring >> as a political sense. >> Just remember, nomatter how many you send in an attempt to dilute us, >>our >> capacity to absorbe and mutate is well nigh infinite. >> Bless us all & Cheeze, johnc >> >> >>oh boo hoo...the west is neglected....hahahaha what a laugh...the whole >>united states is constantly bombarded by the notion that the west is "where >>it's at"...mass exodus to Los Angeles, Seattle, San Francisco, Portland and >>now Phoenix is the new "happening" place...give me a break! the midwest and >>the south is constantly pissed on and forgotten about.... >> >>RL > > >Ok, I have to answer that one. I'm from Phoenix, and this is definately the >'happening' place to be, if you like being able to fry eggs on your head >while standing in shade. As far as the onslaught of newbies appearing here, >I can't argue with that. Jaime > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:57:08 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States In a message dated 9/27/02 12:34:21 PM Central Daylight Time, dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: << oh, c'mon -- what a silly pissing contest, albeit one to which i seem to have inadvertantly helped contribute. robert, surely you're above such things. >> aww....does this mean that i have to go stand in the corner?...it's the concussion i suffered, honest........ ; 0 RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:04:38 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Atlanta/Two States >In a message dated 9/27/02 12:34:21 PM Central Daylight Time, >dpbailey@worldnet.att.net writes: > ><< oh, c'mon -- what a silly pissing contest, albeit one to which i seem to > have inadvertantly helped contribute. robert, surely you're above such > things. > >> > > >aww....does this mean that i have to go stand in the corner?...it's the >concussion i suffered, honest........ ; 0 > >RL now, if (assuming that i have -- perhaps it's debatable) i can overcome having first cousins as grandparents & coming from a town that still doesn't have a single stoplight, you certainly can't get away with blaming a little old concussion. besides, as i've detailed before, stuck down here in montgomery (which already makes little rock look like the fabled shining city on the hill), to me st louis might as well be la or nyc -- it's all a matter of perspective. dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 11:12:29 -0700 (PDT) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] longitude and latitude - --- dan bailey wrote: > oh, c'mon -- what a silly pissing contest thanks > > as for phoenix,...possibly the best eatery in the > country (restaurant mexico, > formerly on mill ave in tempe -- dan rose, we both > found out to our surprise > a few months ago off-list, agrees with me on that > one), my favorite was Mama Rosa's on Speedway in Tucson until last summer's eye-opening trip to LA Although I could not imagine relocating in CA, there are definate attractions. Arons, Amoeba, the best Mexican food I have EVER had at some place in Glendale (I can find the name if anyone cares) - AMAZING Thai at some little hole in a strip mall (found on Carl Stone's faves list) Listen - I spent a lifetime in KCMO one year. There is nothing which would motivate me to ever return, but I still have fond memories of rockin' soul food at Three Sisters, more fabulous barbeque than one could imagine, an astounding Neubauten show, seing William Burroughs final reading and a few other events too personal to share. Wherever you are - make the best of it - and if that's not good enough - leave. Me, I'm in chicago for the long haul (unless someone offers me an astounding opportunity in CO or HW) Oh yeah - Paris would be ideal... o're and oot New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:28:56 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] longitude and latitude >> as for phoenix,...possibly the best eatery in the >> country (restaurant mexico, >> formerly on mill ave in tempe -- dan rose, we both >> found out to our surprise >> a few months ago off-list, agrees with me on that >> one), >my favorite was Mama Rosa's on Speedway in Tucson i lived on speedway that summer 19 years ago i interned at the u of ariz press ... dunno if this place existed then, or if we just couldn't afford to eat out (what with the internship being unpaid & all & my then-wife making no attempt to find work ... i mean, they could've at *least* offered me my choice of their books, no? i still need a copy of james byrkit's forging the copper collar), but i don't remember it. >until last summer's eye-opening trip to LA >Although I could not imagine relocating in CA, there >are definate attractions. Arons, Amoeba, the best >Mexican food I have EVER had at some place in Glendale >(I can find the name if anyone cares) i've been in the la area something like 3 entire days in my life, but i'll be astonished if this place can compare to restaurant mexico, whose fare is based on the cuisine (all green sauces & white -- ranchero? -- cheese) of a completely different section of mexico than we're used to up here. >Wherever you are - make the best of it - and if that's >not good enough - leave. excellent philosophy. of course, if the people who run ap in nashville had played along, & if the newspaper business weren't so fraught with dangers (as i've found out here in gannett hell), & if various considerations didn't dictate that i stay somewhat close to arkansas, & if memphis were hiring, even though it's a shitful paper, etc, i'd already be gone. *sigh* dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 14:42:00 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] longitude and latitude << >Wherever you are - make the best of it - and if that's >not good enough - leave. >> actually, the more i think about this whole thread i realize that i have been silly...actually i could care less about north,south,east, west...where i live doesn't really matter to me.. i border on being a hermit anyway...i don't derive much pleasure from places or (most) people anyway.... later copyists RL ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:46:02 -0500 From: "dan bailey" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] longitude and latitude how silly of me not to have invoked the ultimate scenario (short of winning the lottery), whereby 2 or 3 higher-ups at arkansas' statewide newspaper develop collective amnesia, receive well-earned demotions or dismissals, move on to wreck other newsrooms, retire, or become involved in seriously debilitating or fatal mishaps, or some combination of the above. hmm ... i keep insisting that the old college-era photo on one of the features copy editor's credit card looks like fairuza balk in the craft ... dan >>Wherever you are - make the best of it - and if that's >>not good enough - leave. > >excellent philosophy. of course, if the people who run ap in nashville had >played along, & if the newspaper business weren't so fraught with dangers >(as i've found out here in gannett hell), & if various considerations didn't >dictate that i stay somewhat close to arkansas, & if memphis were hiring, >even though it's a shitful paper, etc, i'd already be gone. *sigh* > >dan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:20:52 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Punk's Beginings In a message dated 26/09/2002 11:54:04 GMT Daylight Time, s.morlighem@homme-moderne.org writes: > In fact, punk was french first : http://members.aol.com/and125/punks.htm > > > Well they did give us Metal Urbain did they not ? Chris (Read & Burn 2 arrived Wednesday.) Got 2 tickets for Brighton November 7th This calls for an IC massive meet up.what do you think ? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 17:35:26 EDT From: PaulRabjohn@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Punk's Beginings In a message dated 9/27/02 10:22:04 PM GMT Daylight Time, CHRISWIRE@aol.com writes: > Got 2 tickets for Brighton November 7th > This calls for an IC massive meet up.what do you think ? > /////well i have heard worse ideas................ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 18:53:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] us them they we i me my Dan wrote: oh, c'mon -- what a silly pissing contest, albeit one to which i seem tohave inadvertantly helped contribute. robert, surely you're above suchthings.My thoughts exactly Dan,I couldn't believe I was reading Robert's thoughts and started to say as much but changed my mind.this 'banter' should not go so far as to be taken so seriously,what will the French think?Ari New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 19:41:25 -0700 (PDT) From: rayographique Subject: Re: [idealcopy] us them they we i me my - --- Ari Britt wrote: ...what will the French think?Ari I warned Seb early on. Of course this debate doesn't rank with the AFOS vs Fenesz debacle..... And lest not ever mention ELO again either - perhaps we should start chatting up ABC and Nik Kershaw ^_^ (I actually enjoyed Skyscraping myself) NP - 1:00-4:33 of harddrive and computer fan New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 27 Sep 2002 23:26:42 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: young fans In a message dated 9/27/02 9:19:23 AM, Trevor.Dutton@arup.com writes: << I was playing R & B 01 the other day when my 6 year old daughter said 'this sounds like the "I am the fly" band'. I was so proud. >> that is fantastic! i must play r&b for the kids more. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #331 *******************************