From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #254 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Friday, August 2 2002 Volume 05 : Number 254 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Another the Newbie [Norm Fasey ] [idealcopy] Wire @ Barbican ? [Anthony Brady ] Re: [idealcopy] Wire @ Barbican ? [Andrew Walkingshaw ] Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] BBC Radio 1 - John Peel - The Oxes At Maida Vale ["Keith Astb] RE: [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk ["Eric Klaver" ] Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath [RLynn9@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: suffering [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: suffering [Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Another the Newbie Yes we probably were the Third Violators - which would have been a much better name than 'The Violators' - much more like the title of a Wire song :) Norm > So were you in yet a third Violators? Does that > name win a prize for most > use simultaneously by bands? ===== - -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GCS d? s:+ a+ C++ UL++ P+ L+++ E W+ N+++ o-- K- w O- M V PS PE+++ Y PGP++ t+ 5 X++ R* tv+ b++ DI++ D+ G e++ h-- r+++ z* - ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 02:32:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Anthony Brady Subject: [idealcopy] Wire @ Barbican ? Has anyone heard about Wire playing at The Barbican on 25th October? There's a very small mention in Time Out this week, but can't find trace of it anywhere else. Looks like Jimmy Cauty & Bill Drummond are putting in an appearance too. Thanks Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:41:32 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Wire @ Barbican ? On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 02:32:16AM -0700, Anthony Brady wrote: > Has anyone heard about Wire playing at The Barbican on 25th October? > There's a very small mention in Time Out this week, but can't find > trace of it anywhere else. WHATWHATWHATWHAT? THAT'S MY *BIRTHDAY*, DAMMIT. :) If it's happening, I'm there. Definitely. - - Andrew - -- "Every aircraft, every camera, Is a wish that wasn't granted." - - Mogwai, "Take Me Somewhere Nice" ('Rock Action') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:05:47 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath > Several years ago people started dropping Jobriath's name (Morrissey in > particular) and I happened upon a very tatty Jobriath album in a junk shop > for 50p. > > It's dreadful. Completely misses the point of glam - operatic, histrionic, > pretentious and pretty much unlistenable! > > Mark sounds like a desc. of Klaus Nomi!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:10:07 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath Keith, >>sounds like a desc. of Klaus Nomi!!!<< > I almost put that in the original mail.... Both met a similar end too.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 08:59:07 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath > >>So Jobriath died an aids-related death then? (I had it in the back of my > mind he died)<< > > I believe so. Some time in the mid 80s, in the Chelsea Hotel. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 14:04:33 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] BBC Radio 1 - John Peel - The Oxes At Maida Vale The lucky folk going to see Wire on their Cambridge to Atlanta dates may = want to have a listen to The Oxes first. Peel session available for = listening. Doesn't sound like anything that hasn't been done loads of = times before mind... Keith = http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/alt/johnpeel/features/oxes_mv_20020605.shtml [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of BBC Radio 1 - John Peel - The Oxes At Maida Vale.url] ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:23:53 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk why do some men always ruin a half-way decent look with the wrong shoes? why do some women almost always ruin a half-way decent look with the wrong fake boobs? /////////////////////////// What boob size does for women, shoe size does for men. Eric in Toronto who is posting his last comment on boobs, tits, Kyle's ass, and shoe size for a long, long, time ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 11:00:01 -0400 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath Jobriath preceded Klaus. Jo was overwrought in all the wrong ways - sort of a Genesis-era Peter Gabriel with no sense of aesthetics gone mad. I saw Klaus open for Ultravox in NYC at Hurrah back in 81 and loved his show - hi camp, wonderful, operatic range, great simple stage makeup and theatrics - sort of Wiemar-era Berlin cabaret gone futuriod, great fun, wonderful club entertainment. Klaus was one of the good guys. I don't think the lps captured the magic of his show though. Steve. G - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Astbury" To: ; Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath > > Several years ago people started dropping Jobriath's name (Morrissey in > > particular) and I happened upon a very tatty Jobriath album in a junk shop > > for 50p. > > > > It's dreadful. Completely misses the point of glam - operatic, histrionic, > > pretentious and pretty much unlistenable! > > > > Mark > > sounds like a desc. of Klaus Nomi!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:10:14 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath In a message dated 8/1/02 12:07:03 PM Central Daylight Time, sjgraziano@hotmail.com writes: << Jobriath preceded Klaus. Jo was overwrought in all the wrong ways - sort of a Genesis-era Peter Gabriel with no sense of aesthetics gone mad. I saw Klaus open for Ultravox in NYC at Hurrah back in 81 and loved his show - hi camp, wonderful, operatic range, great simple stage makeup and theatrics - sort of Wiemar-era Berlin cabaret gone futuriod, great fun, wonderful club entertainment. Klaus was one of the good guys. I don't think the lps captured the magic of his show though. Steve. G >> Thanks for the help Steve! so nyahh (sticking tongue out at Keith) RL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 18:49:33 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath > Klaus was one of the good guys. I don't think the lps > captured the magic of his show though. > Steve. G >> > > Thanks for the help Steve! so nyahh (sticking tongue out at Keith) > RL Get to the back of the queue Robert ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 13:45:19 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Jobriath In a message dated 8/1/02 12:43:50 PM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: << Get to the back of the queue Robert ; ) >> so now you are the snotty door man at the club eh?...i bet you are wearing leather trousers as we speak! : ) RL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 15:39:17 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: suffering >From: "Cambra, Robert" >Subject: [idealcopy] suffering > >sufficiently evil thing that I couldn't wish it on anyone.> > >But, Andrew, the artist is a shaman who must suffer to create, he has no >choice; that's his role, its not depression. And then there is craft. (Oh, >no, I just used several words I never thought I'd want to use here.) > >Robert (another) I would agree w/ Robert if we add that there is no need to suffer intentionally. As a human being one WILL suffer, and that some of (which is not to say ALL of--no need to start listing exceptions) the most lasting art in history has come out of suffering seems fairly clear. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:01:41 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: suffering On Thu, Aug 01, 2002 at 03:39:17PM -0500, Michael Flaherty wrote: > >From: "Cambra, Robert" > >Subject: [idealcopy] suffering > > > > >sufficiently evil thing that I couldn't wish it on anyone.> > > > >But, Andrew, the artist is a shaman who must suffer to create, he has no > >choice; that's his role, its not depression. And then there is craft. (Oh, > >no, I just used several words I never thought I'd want to use here.) > > > >Robert (another) > > I would agree w/ Robert if we add that there is no need to suffer > intentionally. As a human being one WILL suffer, and that some of (which is > not to say ALL of--no need to start listing exceptions) the most lasting > art in history has come out of suffering seems fairly clear. In-as-much as suffering is part of the human condition, and art reflects the human condition ("emotive" or not: Wire address, frequently, more abstract concepts than "she's left me, waah" or "she's come back! yay!", but the concepts they *have* addressed are still fundamentally human. There are very few songs about purely scientific/logical concerns out there - that I've encountered, anyway.), it follows that some art - some great art, some less so - will reflect suffering. Likewise depression; some artists will be depressives, and their work will reflect that, and some of their work will be good. Some of it will help people understand[1], and some will give comfort to those who're hurting, and both of these are noble things. However, I think it'd be safe to say I'm not the only person on the list who will have either seen or felt the effects, first or second-hand, of clinical depression - in fact, I'd be amazed if nearly everyone here hadn't been in one or both of the roles above. To emphasise, what I'm about to say doesn't mean I don't value the art of Ian Curtis or Kurt Cobain, to name but two, but - and I understand many people would disagree - I *would* happily trade my good fortune in hearing their work for them to *not* have been so badly ill, for them to - well, to have survived, to have been able to continue living, to have stopped hurting. I can't wish clinical depression on *any* living person. It's not grief, or physical pain - those are something quite different, and comparing depression to those would, to me, feel disrespectful - trivialising, insulting - to those who are injured, or bereaved. These, however, are inevitable parts of everyone's life - and as such, though I can sympathise, and offer what support and aid I can, these are in some sense _normal_). Depression is a pernicious *illness* - a severe, potentially crippling, mental illness - and wishing that on someone is no different in many ways from wishing persistent physical illness on him or her, to my eyes. Depression is grey; physical pain is red. Depression is an absence, a hole, a void you can't fill: doubt, self-hatred, insecurity, an absence of worth, value, and direction: it hurts you by sucking any of the joy, any of the possible comfort out of life. It destroys your personality by destroying your ability to *fulfil* that personality; your ability to, in fact, define yourself is taken away by the gaping rift between *thinking* about one's aptitudes and *believing* in them - *believing* that one can survive, that there is another side. Physical pain, within limits, is a primal motivator: "get out of here, see to this injury". Depression is so pernicious because the illness destroys your capacity to care *for* and *about* oneself, and as such is a demotivator; an incapacitator. Been there, seen that: it's not fun. It's not sexy. It's not, for whatever deity you wish's sake, the new rock and roll - and I value people too much to *want* to sacrifice them for their music. I don't want *anyone* to suffer like that; just the same as, when I saw someone with a broken leg, I wouldn't stand by and savour their suffering. The romantic ideal of the suffering artist, whether starving in a garret, tormented by inner demons", or consumed by drugs - from the opium eaters through Charlie Parker to the present day - may make good copy, and good television - but I can't buy into it wholesale. I think I'd enjoy the music of Joy Division more if Ian Curtis had got the help he'd needed. Screw "4 Real". If Richey James had been fake, maybe he wouldn't have written the same lyrics: but who's to say that he couldn't have used his talents in another way? Damn all the _glamourisation_ of human suffering: regardless if other people have it worse, regardless if in some way one wants to define a calculus of pain: ten points for a broken leg, fifty for a famine, that doesn't make *any* of it right, and wishing illness, doubt, self-hatred, any of this on another person just so they can create *entertainment* ... I'd rather have the art they could have made had they recovered. I'm sorry for all of this: I don't mean it as an attack on anyone. I think this is subtly different to what Robert was trying to get across, and Michael, but I thought it worth saying. - - Andrew [1] _Good_ sigmonster. Well done. . "Protection" is one of my favourite songs... - -- "Now, you can't change the way she feels, But you could put your arms around her..." - Massive Attack, "Protection" ('Protection') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 20:04:34 -0500 (CDT) From: voyteck@webtv.net Subject: Re: [idealcopy] suffering 1800 degrees away, I find the most positive optimism (above losing faith in various 'natures') in map ref 400N 930W. This track is far & above (elite if you will) over common human condition focus. To be lifted or removed from one's circumstances and view an understanding from a big picture perspective from what is taken for granted, oblivious of, or it's so obvious (it's under your nose!) is as close to what I imagine an out of body experience is said to be. Map ref is truly amazing to me! 154 the best of the best! Thoughts of John Lennon going to the India (?) art gallery to see avante-gardist Yoko Ono exhibit. She had a ladder with an magnifying glass strung on top. John climbed the ladder, grasped the mag-glass to read 'yes' on the ceiling. He thought that finally someone had something positive in their art; not such as ripoff or themes thereof. The rest is JoKo history. Hooray for our 'A-list'! A mutual friend, voyteck ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 22:45:25 EDT From: Tisbili@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] used vinyl RLynn9@aol.com writes: i just got back from local used vinyl store..any thoughts on the following groups? << joe boxers>> Just got unlucky << my daughters wedding>> Launch airs are everywhere <> begone prince of darkness << chas jankel >> I know Corrida. I served with Corrida. You sir, are no corrida. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 23:00:49 EDT From: Tisbili@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Flaming Minogue Magog timrobinson@cwcom.net asks: << Whats a Magog? Sounds like some sort of drink, >> That would be MyGrog. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 07:58:01 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk Keith mused, and I have to agree: >> It's now forgotten that the pre-fame Thompson Twins were rather >> good. I saw >> a 7 or 8 piece version supporting the Teardrops and then play a >> small gig at >> a local college a few months later and they really were very >> good live. Saw them at Sheffield Uni, and later blagged our way onto the guest list at York Uni having recognised the roadie in one of the campus bars. They were indeed very good live at this time. Their finale being the distribution of hubcaps and drumsticks to the audience, for a percussive accompaniment both on and off stage. For the York gig I remember sharing Alanah's cowbell! AndyL ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #254 *******************************