From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #251 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, July 30 2002 Volume 05 : Number 251 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards [RLynn9@aol.com] RE: [idealcopy] OT-punknstuff... ["Eric Klaver" ] RE: [idealcopy] Flaming Minogue Magog ["Eric Klaver" ] Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards ["Stephen Graziano" ] Re: [idealcopy] ot- sandanista ["Stephen Graziano" ] [idealcopy] re: Anorak Roadshow ["Andrew Lumbard" ] Re: [idealcopy] Punx Not Ded [Eardrumbuz@aol.com] [idealcopy] Paul sed....... [Ari Britt ] Re: RE: [idealcopy] An Encounter with an Angel? ["ian.s. jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] Bruce's Organ Symphony [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] north-west fashion parade [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk ["Keith Astbury" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:05:21 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards Ian said > as much as i love The Strokes LP > (and IMO its one the most 'playable' LP's i've heard in a long time...), > they're about as 'punk' as my mum. This sentence is the only possible explanation I can think of for me dreaming last night that I was getting my mum Chairs Missing for her birthday.... Keith PS Even in my dream I was thinking 'God, she won't like Practice Makes Perfect or Mercy'! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 04:23:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Wireviews Subject: [idealcopy] Wireviews reviews >>>May i be the first to say: "well done Fergus"....This is a great review! Actually, i think it's quite alright to go back in time and review something...especially something as interesting as MZUI....<<< I should probably point out that Wireviews wants to cover the entire back-catalogue of Wire and associated stuff, whether it's available or not, so feel free to send stuff over if you like. Also, if anyone feels like sending over a review of the ICA gig, then please do and I'll bung it online in the not-to-distant. Best Craig. ===== - ------- Craig Grannell / Wireviews --- http://www.wireviews.com News, reviews and dugga. VMU: http://www.vmuonline.com SVA: http://www.snubcommunications.com - -------------- wireviews@yahoo.com --- Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 08:16:15 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards In a message dated 7/30/02 5:57:55 AM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > This sentence is the only possible explanation I can think of for me > dreaming last night that I was getting my mum Chairs Missing for her > birthday.... > Keith > PS Even in my dream I was thinking 'God, she won't like Practice Makes > Perfect or Mercy'! > yeah, but i bet we could talk your mum into wearing leather pants! c'mon Keith! RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:45:11 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] OT-punknstuff... 1. it *was* seen as a threat to society, honest...hard to imagine now, but, like they say, you had to be there... //////////////////////////// You are absolutely correct Ian. I remember many media discussions about punk as if it was this huge threat, much like the discussions around gangsta' rap. The difference would be that punk was threat from within white culture (ignoring the class distinctions which don't play such a role here as it does in the UK). Eric in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:51:47 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Flaming Minogue Magog Robert wrote: >uh...the flaming lips doing "Can't Get You Out of My Head"???...*shudder* >...bastards... Don't worry Robert, they did it as a lumbering dirge, with orchestral crescendo's. They performed in front of footage of a womans arse. Possibly a comment on British media obsession with Kylie's bottom. /////////////////////////// Not just the British media baby! Waaaaah Hooooooooo!!!!!!! Eric in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:51:48 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Bored of Canada C.D Totally agree.Geogaddi still has the most impressive music released in 2002 for me at the moment.R & B 1 is a very close second. ///////////////////////////////// CHRIS!!!! DUCK!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:51:46 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: RE: [idealcopy] An Encounter with an Angel? I suppose in Toronto it would be "getting off at Kipling". - -----Original Message----- From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On Behalf Of Eardrumbuz@aol.com Sent: July 29, 2002 6:42 PM To: idealcopy@smoe.org Subject: Re: RE: [idealcopy] An Encounter with an Angel? In a message dated 7/29/02 4:36:51 PM, iansjackson@hotmail.com writes: >thought i'd share this one with you all...here on Merseyside we call that > >particular art of stopping, 'getting off at Edge Hill'... >so called, because this is the last-but-one train station on the main line > >into Liverpool... haha, that's great! we could probably all customize it to fit our own, um, regions. here on long island (heading towards manhattan) it could be "getting off at woodside" and the possibilties are nearly endless when it, ur, comes to the new york subway system. i'll have to see what the most amusing stop names would be. - -another the paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:51:04 -0400 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] used vinyl anorak ODW? Weren't they sort of a low-rent synth-pop band? I remember a 45, "Lawnchairs" - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 12:31 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] used vinyl anorak > In a message dated 7/28/02 7:10:40 PM, RLynn9@aol.com writes: > > > > >joe boxers > > saw them. memory i have is that the lead guy reminded me of the bassist for > culture club, and the rest of em had a haircut 100/simply red vibe going. i > don't remember any songs, not even their one hit...i know they had one. > > >my daughters wedding > > you mean our daughter's wedding? i have vague memories there too, but fond > ones. omd-ish springs to mind for some reason. good reason? > > -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:53:34 -0400 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new on the list always thought the anorak contingent was more post Joy Division miserablists rather than Echo fans (didn't they gravitate toward surplus military?); anyway, that was a NY'er's (at the time impression) "It's Grim Up North" - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eiliv Konglevoll" To: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 2:23 AM Subject: SV: [idealcopy] new on the list > Hello > > and thanks - takk - all to you ! Not much about Wire yet - but maybe later? Interesting one from Andrew on "punk" and The Ideal Copy. Don't think Wire fit in there, or in any other category, difficult to compare them with any other group, and that is good. I put them under "alternative" or "indie" but that could be almost anything . . > > Anoraks - wasn't that an Echo & B thing and not Wire? Serious and angry young men with Soviet art on the walls? But it's veeery long ago ... > > > best wishes > > Eiliv > > > -----Opprinnelig melding----- > Fra: Keith Astbury > > >Hi Eiliv og velcomen, > >Hope you enjoy it here. It's a great list. Not sure of the Norwegian > >spelling, but... > >Hilsen > >Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:58:21 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Punx Not Ded I just don't care I just don't care I just don't care Anymore No No No No No No Mr Suit DIY / No Rules / 12XU Identity / Art / Negation As Mr Gilbert said to Mr Eden, "Take it out of the hands of the beer gut rockers. Put it back where it should be - With Experimentation." EXPERIMENTATION (that's an important word) BUT NO I just don't care I just don't care I just don't care Anymore HARDCORE IS MORE THAN MUSIC 106 Beats Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP WIRE ~ nICe streets Above "They said our youth was dead How could they know?" (Trumans Water - Aroma of Gina Arnold) "Indecision" (WIRE ~ 1st Fast) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:07:02 -0400 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards I agree with you mark that the Pistols, as a 76/77 phenonemna were not a scam. Rather as one who remembers the time all-too well, the Pistols represented a revolution in music and the industry. They were the literally death pill for all that the "industry" i.e. your Frampton's, Collin's, Zep's et al stood for - bloated, overindulgent, distanced, non-vital. For the Pistols - their music was their life, their lifestyle, their off-stage value system. The Sex Pistols were the closest thing to an anarchistist insurrection. They threatened to overturn everything, destroy the past to build anew. Totally inconoclastic, their refusal to be controlled or predictable was their danger. Unfortunately, they were so high-concept and so completely formed - even from the start, that they had no where to go. How does a band evolve when their touch-stone was "No Future" They could only hope to blow themselves up and take as much of the enemy out with themselves. All that post-San Fransisco mythologizing is just that, attempts by the survivors to paint themselves in the best light possible. The Clash for all their prostelising were never smart enough to realise that any attempt to reform rock from the inside was doomed to failure. The beast just swallowed them whole and they gradually got corrupted as they titled at ever more abstract windmills. There seems to be a direct dichotomy between the quest for popularity/populism and the quest for reform/change. You just can't have one without selling out the other. Steve. G - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Cc: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 7:43 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards > Andrew mused about punkness and intellectualism... > > What needs to be borne in mind is just how absolutely necessary punk was in > 1976, where the UK music scene was completely, utterly devoid of excitement. > > I'd say the unified "punk scene" was pretty much over by the time it had > filtered into the provinces, leaving mutant strains in different places > (Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield, Coventry, Manchester, Bristol, Glasgow....hey, > even Blackpool). It became possible to make music outside the stranglehold > previously held by major record labels. > > Punk as fashion (bondage kecks, mohicans etc) was redundant by 1978, though > that hasn't stopped Blink 182 and Rancid. Of course America embraced > johnny-come-lately UK punk bands that were seen as an utter joke (eg the > Exploited) and the subsumation of what was effectively a 1981 punk image as > the acceped US punk look (routed via skateboard chic) is what we have > presented to us as "punk" today. Strokes/Hives etc are an attempt to restore > some perceived post-punk "authenticity" to music that is no more original > than the Cortinas or 999 were in 1977. > > Also, don't believe for a moment that the pistols were the "scam" that > McLaren paints them as. Lydon was far too intelligent for that. > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:28:59 -0400 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards Just to discuss the one point: "Radiohead aren't punk. Green Day - as you say - less so. And regardless of what the man on the street might say, surely anyone worth his salt would lump Wire and Joy Division in with punk. Wire were there at the time. Joy Division, like Magazine, came directly from it...(And Radiohead, a long way down the road, came from here...)" What was cool about Wire and Joy Division and lots of others, Gang of Four, Mekons, Fall, Magazine, et.al - generally lumped in the term "post punk" was you had a stream of bands that took an abstract essence of the punk philosophy or attitude - but as an artistic application - to the questioning and overturning of musical orthodoxy as applied to songwriting and styling. If punk had in its own way become an orthodoxy, then those most impressed by the "idea" of punk as freedom, inventiveness, originality, individualism, while staying true to the ideals of "small is better", non-egoism, non-indulgence, and corporate independence were bound to progress the genre in individualistic ways and leave the early blueprint behind, as much a hidebound dinosaur as all the hoary old bands that first-wave punk stood against. Steve. G ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:37:31 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot- sandanista >holy hell, could that be true?? can sony really own the rights to ANY work >done by any two of three particular people? I can't find the exact article right now. I think it from an LA times article in 1986, but the "site has exceeded it's allocated transfer" and I can't call it up. However, here's a couple that are close: From Strummer himself: http://www.strummernews.com/musician88.html So how come if Joe played everything on the demos he's not credited with playing anything on the Walker album - just singing? "I couldn't credit myself playing because I was afraid of getting sued by Sony, to be honest. I got permission from CBS/Sony to sing on it. See, I can write it, conduct it, produce it, okay? I can do all that and have it on any label quite freely. But should I sing on it or play, then some deal has to be made. So because Walker's on Virgin I made a deal for the singing with CBS/Sony. Then when I began to to compile the credits I thought, 'Anything I've done I better not put on there, 'cause for all I know there may be a separate deal for playing it. It could open a can of worms, right? So I just put down 'Vocals' but in fact I'm probably playing some rhythmic instrument on every track, whether it's piano, guitar or marimba." also here: http://destroy.austin.tx.us/resources/joe_strummer/rc00.html Although Strummer kept busy acting, doing more soundtracks, producing other artists and building his own 8-track home studio, it was amazingly ten years before his next solo album. One major reason was a Mexican stand-off with Sony, who now owned his CBS contract: "They took up the option to make another record. But then they realised that, because I had a descendant of the Clash contract, if I went into a studio that was the contractual signal of them having to cough up the advance. And they realised after 'Earthquake Weather' that the advance was way too big for returns. So they were not keen on me to go into the studio at all cos I would kick in a new phase of the contract. I realised, 'Hey, they don't want me to succeed anyway cos it's not in their interests.' So for the next eight years I figured out how to get out of the contract. I realised I was kind of fucked, and I decided to bore them out. I got them to let me go on the grounds that if the Clash ever got back together, then we're contracted to Epic, but on solo stuff I could be free." Cheers, Paul ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 12:58:46 -0400 From: "Stephen Graziano" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot- sandanista Yes it's true because our "revolutionary" heroes, in their hunger to overthrow the old world order, and with the conivance of their manager signed a 6 - 10 album contract. When a band signs, most often the label signs you individually as well as a group - since who knows how long the lineup will stay together. You are bound to that contract until the label releases you. There's no point in complaining about "record label slavery". The Clash knew the score when they signed on the bottom line and they willingly went along with the program. Sandanista was a business level disaster for them. They thought that they could cash in on the success of London Calling in America by forcing a value for money triple lp that would sell for the cost of one on the label. They got neither, it sold for the price of a double, and for the priviledge of releasing it, it only counted as a single album against their contract. I personally thought that the Clash were a great band. Especially through the first four releases. The footage of them playing in Rude Boy and the Westway to the World DVD surely bears this out. But as "Punk Revolutionaries" they were nimrods. Strummer had a clue, slight one as it was, about social inequities but his platform was corrupted the moment the group went to CBS. They were in competition with and in awe of the Pistols, and it was this sense, not of representing any cause that led to most of their decisions. Steve. G - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 10:58 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] ot- sandanista > In a message dated 7/29/02 8:07:47 PM, paulp@wrq.com writes: > > >According to an interview I read with Strummer - if > >some combination of Paul, Joe, & Mick are in the same room recording - > >Strummer gave the magic number as "2 people" - then it "automatically" > >becomes the Clash, and Sony owns the rights to anything they do. > > holy hell, could that be true?? can sony really own the rights to ANY work > done by any two of three particular people? sounds like something the guys > could have worked out legally, in their favor, if there really was a desire > to work together again. > > -paul c.d. > > n.p. long time ago- american songs by aaron copeland, performed by the st > paul chamber orch ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:05:48 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards see below...couldn't have put it better myself...and i didn't... but i like to think that at least my heart's still in the right place... as for my head...well, apologies for the non-intellectualism... i prefer emotion over analysis, if i have a choice... ian.s.j. >What was cool about Wire and Joy Division and lots of others, Gang of Four, >Mekons, Fall, Magazine, et.al - generally lumped in the term "post punk" >was you had a stream of bands that took an abstract essence of the punk >philosophy or attitude - but as an artistic application - to the >questioning and overturning of musical orthodoxy as applied to songwriting >and styling. > If punk had in its own way become an orthodoxy, then those most impressed by the "idea" of punk as freedom, inventiveness, originality, individualism, while staying true to the ideals of "small is better", non-egoism, non-indulgence, and corporate independence were bound to progress the genre in individualistic ways and leave the early blueprint behind, as much a hidebound dinosaur as all the hoary old bands that first-wave punk stood against. >Steve. G _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 21:11:10 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: [idealcopy] re: Anorak Roadshow Tim brought to our attention:- <<..Britains cheesiest music station (DLT, David 'Kid' Jensen, Tony Blackburn et al) would travel to flyblown seaside resorts, play a few records, introduce the local mayor and conduct competitions..>> I can well remember seeing Peter Powell, DLT and Sid Jensen at the Boating Lake Paddock, Cleethorpes. Always fancied I'd be pretty good at bits'n'pieces, but never got the chance.......errmm....I'll get me coat! AndyL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 16:38:59 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Punx Not Ded In a message dated 7/30/02 2:05:35 PM, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: > >EXPERIMENTATION >(that's an important word) very one thing that a college professor helped clarify for me (and it's something i try to be conscious of going into every creative endeavor) is that it's very difficult (impossible? discuss.) to experiment if you know what you're doing. i paraphrased that, but it's the general meaning behind what he told me. we were also discussing it in reference to musical improvisation. the more knowledgeable, skilled, experienced you are at something, the more difficult it becomes to improvise or experiment withing that medium. hat's off to you, mr. gilbert. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 14:04:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Paul sed....... we were also discussing it in reference to > musical improvisation. the > more knowledgeable, skilled, experienced you are at > something, the more > difficult it becomes to improvise or experiment > withing that medium. Disagree here Paul,you are obviously not into Jazz.......or you'd know that the greater ,the older,the more expeienced the musician,the greater his/her ability to improvise.Ari ===== everything in moderation is good for you,including excess. Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:21:40 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: Re: RE: [idealcopy] An Encounter with an Angel? a thread emerges... > >thought i'd share this one with you all...here on Merseyside we call that >particular art of stopping, 'getting off at Edge Hill'... > >so called, because this is the last-but-one train station on the main >line into Liverpool... > >haha, that's great! we could probably all customize it to fit our own, um, >regions. here on long island (heading towards manhattan) it could be >"getting off at woodside" and the possibilties are nearly endless when it, >ur, comes to the new york subway system. i'll have to see what the most >amusing stop names would be. > >-another the paul hur hur, he said 'long'... now there's a weird thing...Woodside is the Birkenhead Mersey river ferry terminal that goes 'another way' into Liverpool...and, of course, we have not one, but two tunnels where you can 'enter' Liverpool as well (see The Stranglers' 'London Lady')... it's a sexy place, what can i say... as for the NY subway stops...how about Columbus Circle...as an alternative form of contraception...? ;)...ok, ignore that one... yours, Frank Skinner (UK-only joke, sorry...) _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:23:15 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: RE: RE: [idealcopy] An Encounter with an Angel? >From: "Eric Klaver" >I suppose in Toronto it would be "getting off at Kipling". now *that* one i like... ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 22:35:29 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: RE: [idealcopy] An Encounter with an Angel? On Tue, Jul 30, 2002 at 10:23:15PM +0100, ian.s. jackson wrote: > >From: "Eric Klaver" > > >I suppose in Toronto it would be "getting off at Kipling". > > now *that* one i like... Because, as we all know, he makes _exceedingly_ good... I think I'll stop there. (Of course, there's the Donald MacGill seaside postcard, too: "Madam, do you like Kipling?" [1] - - "I wouldn't know, I've never kippled!" - - Andrew [1] As in Rudyard, the author... - -- "Every aircraft, every camera, Is a wish that wasn't granted." - - Mogwai, "Take Me Somewhere Nice" ('Rock Action') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:02:59 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] re: Anorak Roadshow > I can well remember seeing Peter Powell, DLT and Sid Jensen at the Boating > Lake Paddock, Cleethorpes. Always fancied I'd be pretty good at > bits'n'pieces, but never got the chance.......errmm....I'll get me coat! > > AndyL I think Sid Jensen is - in a Emerson Lake & Parker and Joy Davidson kind of way - going to become part of my vocab ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:07:47 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Paul sed....... > > more knowledgeable, skilled, experienced you are at > > something, the more > > difficult it becomes to improvise or experiment > > withing that medium. > > Disagree here Paul,you are obviously not into > Jazz.......or you'd know that the greater ,the > older,the more expeienced the musician,the greater > his/her ability to improvise.Ari I agree with you on the improvisation front, Ari, but I think Paul's lecturer is right when it comes to *experimentation* (though admittedly there are exceptions). Mind you, I'm a bit suspicious of 'improvisers' - who's to say they haven't improvised that bit before? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:13:02 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards > > This sentence is the only possible explanation I can think of for me > > dreaming last night that I was getting my mum Chairs Missing for her > > birthday.... > > Keith > > PS Even in my dream I was thinking 'God, she won't like Practice Makes > > Perfect or Mercy'! > > > > yeah, but i bet we could talk your mum into wearing leather pants! c'mon > Keith! > > RL I'll mention it to her of course... I managed to brainwash my mum sufficiently in the 70's for her to be able to sing along with lesser known Bolan titles such as Dandy in the Underworld, but I fear leather kecks and Another The Letter might just be a step too far! Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:01:29 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Bruce's Organ Symphony Thanks to Ari (and thanks to Mark for offering!), I've heard the Kitchen Motors show: I love show 1, but show 2 ... needs to grow on me. Bruce's piece is (almost automatically) the highlight for me. To the question "why is it good?" my answer is "I don't know, probably for many of the same reasons that Wire is good". I might add, Bruce Gilbert can create more with an out of tune radio (much less 15 organs complete with actual players) than the vast majority of us can create with ... well, anything. I love the story about him wanting to play "Germ Ship" twice in a row. Are you sure that he didn't know they had just played it? :) Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:15:17 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] north-west fashion parade > >>always thought the anorak contingent was more post Joy Division > miserablists > rather than Echo fans (didn't they gravitate toward surplus military?); > anyway, that was a NY'er's (at the time impression) > "It's Grim Up North"<< If you liked JD, chances are you also liked the Bunnymen. Anoraks would have been deemed most unfashionable. Long raincoats or overcoats were de rigueur for the angst-ridden northern young person, along with 2nd hand suits, proper trousers (never jeans), and plain white, grey or black shirts (never coloured) in basic styles (ie not jumbo collars etc). My dad was a prison officer so I used to nick his uniform shirts, which were ideal. Thin black tie optional. Proper lace-up black shoes too, no trainers. Doc Martens OK. Just look at pix of Joy Div, ACR or indeed Wire circa 79. The combat gear Bunnymen image was acceptable as an alternative, though only during 1980. By the spring of 81 it was well out, though the overcoats etc had another year or so to run. Colours started creeping in - eg Josef K, as bleak as you got in terms of sound and image, wore 60s mod suits with psychedelic shirts. Much copied, especially in these parts! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 18:22:42 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] 70s Punk It's been interesting reading the "punk" discussion. I bought several Sex Pistols singles before the album was released, and had the first Clash, Wire, et al albums from imports as well. Nothing impressive about this, beyond pointing out that there were those of us (many on this list) in the states who followed from as close to the beginning as was possible, given our geographical disadvantage, and who had a similar reaction both to the music business, and punk's reaction to it. Of course, the vast majority considered it a big joke. My feeling now is that little of it holds up musically, but that all of it holds up culturally. I don't imagine I'll ever play a Clash album all the way through again, but that doesn't mean the Clash weren't worth an awful lot at the time. The two bands (discounting bands like Television, that really aren't what we're talking about here) that have lasted for me are my two favorites at the time: the Sex Pistols and Wire. Now, while I do believe Bollocks and Pink Flag would sound great to me today even if I had never heard from these people again, when I look at PIL and later Wire (alone and together) I can't help but think that there was something beyond whatever I thought "punk rebellion" was in the 70s that was in these two albums. Or perhaps it's all a coincidence. Still, John Lydon and Wire seem to me to be the smartest of the bunch, although, again, at that time I was conciously responding to that (I was pretty lost ... certainly wouldn't expect to have a Ph.D. some day). Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:36:30 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Bruce's Organ Symphony > >>I love the story about him wanting to play "Germ Ship" twice in a row. > Are > you sure that he didn't know they had just played it? :)<< Any wireoraks in posession of the Mittnacht Bahnhof Cafe Nostalgia bootleg (live at Hull Tiffanys, 1979) will know this is not a new feature of the Gilbert technique. Seven tracks in, Colin announces the next song: "This one's called Midnight Bahnhof Cafe". And Bruce starts going chunk chunk chunk chunk....the intro to Ally In Exile. Which Wire had played as second song that evening... "Wrong song!" shouts Colin (off mike). "Shit!" shouts someone else, though whether this was a member of the band or a disgruntled punker hoping to hear Mr Suit is not known... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:43:22 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk Well...after a successful happy hour (unfortunately surrounded by mostly yuppy business types who had no sense of humour and actually like the music on the radio that was piped into the bar/restaurant), i would like to present some rapid fire random thoughts of someone who is quite drunk...(yours truly)...in no particular order.. i kept hearing the song "Frustration" by Soft Cell in my head..i wonder why? the song "Sussudio" by Phil Collins contains perhaps the most wicked/ridiculous (slap?/electronic?) bassline of all time..and it is my life's ambition to get a clean sample of it on my Casio sk-1 or sk-5 and loop it into a pop dance song and become rich and famous.... i find nothing wrong with the lyrics of the Thompson Twins...especially "Lies" (which also has a wicked bassline) i enjoy fiddling with the above mentioned cheap Casio samplers while visiting the restroom...wonder if Rankine and MacKenzie thought of that one whilst recording "Sulk"..(wink wink Mr. Astbury) The lyrics on "Non-stop Erotic Cabaret" by Soft Cell have to be some of the best ever... Who is REALLY at fault for the destruction of Genesis? "Love Shack" by the B-52's has got to be THE worst/most annoying song ever.... why do some men always ruin a half-way decent look with the wrong shoes? why do some women almost always ruin a half-way decent look with the wrong fake boobs? why do some women fake being a smoker? especially when it is obvious to even a non-smoker that the woman has never ACTUALLY smoked a cigarette the proper way? they call that food? "Supernaut" by Black Sabbath is a right fookin' rockin' song (ride home in metal-head friend's car) what was up with Peter Gabriel's shaved stripe down the middle if his head back in the 70's? (conversations centered around Genesis and Yes most of Happy Hour...ugh...) is playing footie a good idea whilst semi-drunk ?(i have 2 hours until kick-off) i'm going for it anyway! don't try to stop me! will Keith Astbury ever don the leather pants? or at least compromise and wear some hideous 80's "hair" band style get-up..like say...day-glow green and purple striped spandex with bandanas tied to his legs and arms??? will i ever shut up? yes RL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 19:49:51 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] north-west fashion parade In a message dated 7/30/02 6:17:31 PM Central Daylight Time, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: > If you liked JD, chances are you also liked the Bunnymen. > > Anoraks would have been deemed most unfashionable. Long raincoats or > overcoats were de rigueur for the angst-ridden northern young person, along > > with 2nd hand suits, proper trousers (never jeans), and plain white, grey > or > black shirts (never coloured) in basic styles (ie not jumbo collars etc). > My > dad was a prison officer so I used to nick his uniform shirts, which were > ideal. Thin black tie optional. Proper lace-up black shoes too, no > trainers. > Doc Martens OK. Just look at pix of Joy Div, ACR or indeed Wire circa 79. > > The combat gear Bunnymen image was acceptable as an alternative, though > only > during 1980. By the spring of 81 it was well out, though the overcoats etc > had another year or so to run. Colours started creeping in - eg Josef K, > as > bleak as you got in terms of sound and image, wore 60s mod suits with > psychedelic shirts. Much copied, especially in these parts! > > Mark > after reading this, i must say that i am indeed intimidated by the anorak power within Mr. Bursa....he even knows about fashions....You are right Keith, Mr. Bursa will be most difficult to beat in any anorak olympics...Mark truly is a "decanorak" athelete.. RL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 01:46:22 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk > i kept hearing the song "Frustration" by Soft Cell in my head..i wonder why? Because a) it's a great record or b) you're frustrated ; ) > the song "Sussudio" by Phil Collins contains perhaps the most > wicked/ridiculous (slap?/electronic?) bassline of all time.. wasn't the Sussudio riff heavily 'borrowed' from 1999? > i find nothing wrong with the lyrics of the Thompson Twins...especially > "Lies" (which also has a wicked bassline) It's now forgotten that the pre-fame Thompson Twins were rather good. I saw a 7 or 8 piece version supporting the Teardrops and then play a small gig at a local college a few months later and they really were very good live. This was a long time before We Are Detective, surely one of the worst singles ever made... > The lyrics on "Non-stop Erotic Cabaret" by Soft Cell have to be some of the > best ever... I bet it's the 'Luring disco dollies to a life of vice' line that does it!!! > Who is REALLY at fault for the destruction of Genesis? Peter Gabriel for leaving and inflicting Phil Collins larynx on the rest of us. Just think if Gabriel hadn't left. Collins might have stayed behind his drums and we would then have been spared Against All Odds. Bastard! > "Love Shack" by the B-52's has got to be THE worst/most annoying song > ever.... No, no....Even on one of the worst days of my life this record brought a smile to my face. My fave HAPPY record! > why do some men always ruin a half-way decent look with the wrong shoes? Cos their wives didn't tell them which ones to wear??? > why do some women almost always ruin a half-way decent look with the wrong > fake boobs? This isn't a problem in North Wales. > will Keith Astbury ever don the leather pants? I'm a veggie!!! > or at least compromise and > wear some hideous 80's "hair" band style get-up..like say...day-glow green > and purple striped spandex with bandanas tied to his legs and arms??? Gold lame jacket, silver satin pants and glitter on my cheeks. And that's my final offer ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:52:47 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] north-west fashion parade Robert, I am simply describing the contents of my wardrobe at the time ;-) Mark > after reading this, i must say that i am indeed intimidated by the anorak > power within Mr. Bursa....he even knows about fashions....You are right > Keith, Mr. Bursa will be most difficult to beat in any anorak > olympics...Mark truly is a "decanorak" athelete.. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 20:51:43 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] musings/ramblings of a drunk > >>Who is REALLY at fault for the destruction of Genesis?<< No fault in destroying it. Armed with a suitable Uzi, I'd have done the honours meself after I'd finished with Yes and ELP. The blame lies with those who started it in the first place ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 02:03:39 +0100 From: Tim Subject: Re:[idealcopy] r&b electronica and the stage Eardrum Buzz wrote: >kaninus (alone on stage except for one of the guest drummers on the opening >song) demonstrated how pointless it is to perform electronica, sans anything >else, in a nightclub. h Knob Twiddling is still such a new thing that it has yet to become much of a spectator sport. But why is someone twiddling away on an acoustic guitar more intersting than someone pushing buttons? why do so many of these guys get up on stage in a club (a venue >for visual performance) and proceed to perform without a visual? i just don't >get it. The main problem is money. Visuals are expensive! As a knob-twiddler myself I'm resigned to the fact that electronic acts must limit their live activities to their own 'niche' circuit...and even then, people aren't keen to listen unless they bring a f**king circus along with them! Why is it that electronic artists are expected to have visuals to go with their music. I don't have any desire to be a film-maker or a visual artist, but I still want to make music and perform it live, just like any other musician. You will seldom see an electronic act do a proper tour as a regular gig. If they do, they are expected to bring along a sound & light extravaganza to rival Pink Floyd (see Orbital). This is beyond the budget of most unsigned acts. So their potential for getting gigs and exposure is very limited indeed. At our next gig we're considering hiring some good looking lads to pretend to play guitars while we hide under the drum riser with our samplers and beatboxes. Knob twiddling can be engaging if the music is good enough. I once saw Autechre play an amazing set. They sat down on the corner of a stage and performed in complete darkness with only the glare from their laptops to illuminate their faces. I stood down the front and the visual spectacle of having them sat in front of you, locked into their own groove and generating all these incredible sounds was enough for me! ________________________________________ Two Fat Persons....Click Click Click http://www.kidsindestructible.com ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #251 *******************************