From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #248 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, July 29 2002 Volume 05 : Number 248 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [idealcopy] College Kids Mum ["Bill Hick" ] Re: [idealcopy] anorak ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] anorak [RLynn9@aol.com] [idealcopy] new on the list ["Eiliv Konglevoll" ] [idealcopy] Re: anoraks etc [HowardJSpencer@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] new on the list ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re. Naming Issues ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] new on the list [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] anorak [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] anorak [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] new on the list [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] anorak [RLynn9@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] new on the list ["Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] College Kids Mum Paul said Mum had two guest drummers Don't they also have twin singers? It sounds like they are a 'hot proposition'!!! >>>had i not been there to see mzm, i could've had kippi's cd (for keeps) for two dollars less than the cost of standing in a sweatbox with 300 college kids Maybe if you get bored of the knob twiddling, you could try talking to some of the college kids. Some may turn out to be quite interesting. Occasionally you might meet one brilliant enough to dazzle you. Magogs are More than Music. But since by day you teach Perhaps I'd just be telling a Grand Mum how to suck eggs? Eggs Refuse to Clear Up Pope Mystery Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP 2nd Gen - Irony Is "Mirror Mirror I C A Sister Love is Never Blind" (WIRE ~ Too Late) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 21:23:54 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak > ahh...thanks Mr. Bursa! now that i know, maybe i can rack up some golden > anoraks of my own...er, or maybe i have already ! > > RL You definitely have a chance of collecting a medal in the next Anorak Olympics, Robert, but if Mark maintains his current form I think he's favourite for the gold - even if he is British ; ) He's looked good in training and I've got a feeling that all that hard work is gonna pay off... As for me - well I'm just hoping for a personal best to be honest... Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:34:43 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak In a message dated 7/28/02 3:17:56 PM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > > ahh...thanks Mr. Bursa! now that i know, maybe i can rack up some golden > > anoraks of my own...er, or maybe i have already ! > > > > RL > > You definitely have a chance of collecting a medal in the next Anorak > Olympics, Robert, but if Mark maintains his current form I think he's > favourite for the gold - even if he is British ; ) He's looked good in > training and I've got a feeling that all that hard work is gonna pay off... > > As for me - well I'm just hoping for a personal best to be honest... > > Keith > However,...it does indeed depend on the "event" doesn't it?...there are certain areas that i might be able to catch him (or Graeme) ....maybe in the "techno/electronica" event? or maybe even the musique concrete/tape music/early electronic music event??? one never knows..... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:01:28 +0200 From: "Eiliv Konglevoll" Subject: [idealcopy] new on the list Hello! Yes, new on the list but got the second album when it came out. And than many others, from the group and various members. I think their music is timeless and play it for younger people who have never heard of them. I am from Norway, got no job, and lots of time for music. best wishes Eiliv ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 17:44:52 EDT From: HowardJSpencer@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: anoraks etc Apparently the term 'anorak' - meaning someone obsessive etc. - means nothing to the under 18s in GB (ex info teacher I know) because anoraks are widely seen as a a fashion item (have been for some time I guess, all depends on the anorak). Cultural differences part two: When Robert mistyped 'Batter' everyone on this island will have thought Fish and Chips, yes? Magog ICA: not much to add to what's already been said about agreeable adrenal buzzes, except that on a personal note, I wish I'd drunk less during the day. Bruce wasn't the only one not to notice that they'd played 'Germ Ship'. I asked Mark B afterwards why they hadn't done so - he was indulgent but perplexed. Apologies to anyone else who I might have talked shit to that evening. The sound for the first three songs was a bit crap, actually, from where I was standing (near the back). Might have some photos if they come out. Howard PS crap band names I've been involved with Guava jelly The enormously high foreheads tarantelle the mind astronauts Chad Uunk (might revive that one, I like it) The septic clits (nothing to do with me - via a mate from Reigate who knew Norman Cook when he was called Quentin!) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:38:25 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new on the list Hi Eiliv og velcomen, Hope you enjoy it here. It's a great list. Not sure of the Norwegian spelling, but... Hilsen Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: Eiliv Konglevoll To: Sent: Sunday, July 28, 2002 10:01 PM Subject: [idealcopy] new on the list > Hello! > > Yes, new on the list but got the second album when it came out. And than many > others, from the group and various members. I think their music is timeless > and play it for younger people who have never heard of them. > > I am from Norway, got no job, and lots of time for music. > > best wishes > > Eiliv ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:41:43 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak > > You definitely have a chance of collecting a medal in the next Anorak > > Olympics, Robert, but if Mark maintains his current form I think he's > > favourite for the gold - even if he is British ; ) > > Keith > However,...it does indeed depend on the "event" doesn't it?...there are > certain areas that i might be able to catch him (or Graeme) maybe in the > "techno/electronica" event? or maybe even the musique concrete/tape > music/early electronic music event??? > RL Come to think of it I might stand a chance in the Glam event. My...how I'd love to win that gold lame anorak ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 23:51:17 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re. Naming Issues > > Small European Cars Coming Into The Country > > > > (usually abbreviated to Small European Cars...) > > ////that's dreadful..... I love it! I can't remember if the following actually existed or whether they just had the name sorted, but another fave from that time, place, etc was based on that old (northern?) saying... Is It Cold Or Is It Me? Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:06:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards Maybe we should set up our own (Wire list) Anorak awards,one for the nicest person and one for the nastiest. one for the person that writes the most interesting stuff,and one for the most boring. oh,and one for the biggest 'Punk' I wouldn't want any of 'em meself.Ari Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 16:08:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new on the list - --- Eiliv Konglevoll wrote: > Hello! Hello back!Ari in America ===== everything in moderation is good for you,including excess. Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:10:17 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak speaking of anoraks...i just got back from local used vinyl store..any thoughts on the following groups? joe boxers my daughters wedding the nylons chas jankel ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:30:56 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak In a message dated 7/28/02 6:10:40 PM Central Daylight Time, RLynn9@aol.com writes: > speaking of anoraks...i just got back from local used vinyl store..any > thoughts on the following groups? > > joe boxers > my daughters wedding > the nylons>>>>>> ok...nevermind...these all suck...i just remembered some of them and had others refresh my memory.... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:33:11 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new on the list welcome aboard Eiliv !!!! prepare to enjoy the ramblings of anoraks and madmen.... ..as well as a few lovers of the Kylie-sound...(snicker...i love ya Keith!) RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:36:44 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak In a message dated 7/28/02 6:31:33 PM Central Daylight Time, RLynn9@aol.com writes: > joe boxers > > my daughters wedding > i spelled both of these wrong as well! i'm batting a thousand today! RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 00:57:20 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new on the list > welcome aboard Eiliv !!!! prepare to enjoy the ramblings of anoraks and > madmen.... > ..as well as a few lovers of the Kylie-sound...(snicker...i love ya Keith!) > > RL Did you know The Flaming Lips played Can't Get You Out Of My Head on their recent tour? Seems like my 'they-wouldn't-know-a-decent-song-if-it-battered-them-over-their-heads' theory was wrong after all ; ) Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:58:16 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new on the list In a message dated 7/28/02 6:50:03 PM Central Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > Did you know The Flaming Lips played Can't Get You Out Of My Head on their > recent tour? Seems like my > 'they-wouldn't-know-a-decent-song-if-it-battered-them-over-their-heads' > theory was wrong after all ; ) > Keith > uh...the flaming lips doing "Can't Get You Out of My Head"???...*shudder* ...bastards... RL n.p. - "The Beat Goes On" by the Whispers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 01:21:05 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards On Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 04:06:06PM -0700, Ari Britt wrote: > oh,and one for the biggest 'Punk' [Apologies to Ari and the list: this is not particularly coherent, and it's not (intended as) a flame of anyone: it's a rant at the world in general, not at anyone here - mainly cause I haven't seen the views I'm getting at being espoused by anyone here. Sorry to trouble you all...] Bugbear alert. What exactly *is* meant by "punk"? This is something I've been thinking out. (This'll link back to Wire eventually, honest). When the media talk about "punk", they're using it (in the general case) for loud, loud-mouthed, anti-authority-but- not-coherently-so-in-general musicians and followers of said bands; bands who manage to say "we hate" but not "we hate *because*". These bands never really interested me; the punk/post-punk-era stuff I got into was through influence-chasing from other bands I liked (who I'd encountered via the mainstream: mainly REM and Radiohead, as I think I've mentioned here before - and thence through the Pixies etc to Joy Division, Wire, et al) - now these bands, either those in the present or those in the past, wouldn't be classed as punk at all by the mass media - quite the contrary in the case of Radiohead (more than once accused, not without some justification, of being the new prog). Hence, we have a situation where a clearly post-punk-influenced, politically-active band such as Radiohead - in many ways, *archetypally* punk in their attitudes - are seen as prog, whilst a retrogressive, past-fixated band such as Blink-182 *are* seen as 'punk'. I see punk, I think, as an attitude rather than a sound: not of deliberate non-conformance for the sake of it, but of deliberately questioning, and specifically of *non-acceptance*; not taking other peoples' word for it, but of thinking, deducing and experiencing for oneself.[1] Therefore, lurching back to the point, an album such as "The Ideal Copy" (which I finally got, filed under "Punk" incidentally in the new Fopp Records here) is infinitely more punk, to me, than the output of any of the anally-fixated three chord wonders the charts are presently infested with under the _guise_ of punk. I wouldn't call myself a punk, by the popular use of the term: I dress conventionally, I conform to the law of the land in the vast majority of aspects (though if technology legisation keeps going in the current direction, I may well not be able to without compromising myself severely in both in my academic work [2] and in my private interests [3]) - but I'm not sure whether the fourteen year old bouncing up and down to Green Day et al is more punk than I am; sometimes, I suspect substantially _less_. Was punk ever a coherent movement? I suspect, though considering that I wasn't *alive* in '77 this is a bit presumptuous of me to say, that punk was really a conflation of two things: a general spirit of disillusionment which manifested itself in both the "civil-disorder" mohican/beer/spitting 'Pistols' punk, and the "intellectual" punk (for want of a better phrase) of the post-punk bands, with a few jokers in the pack playing to both crowds (noticably the Clash) As to "The Ideal Copy" - it may well, musically, be not that far from the mainstream of 80s "intelligent" pop at the time it was made; but I'm really enjoying it, because of the intelligence, scorn and spite in it lyrically, and the sheer *imagination* noticable in the melodies and (particularly) arrangements which separate it completely from the formulaic pap most people, sadly, regard as "punk rock". I really like it. A lot more than I thought I would, actually. This is a good thing. :) But, as Iggy Pop said and Mogwai sampled, I'm wishing for the music which "is so powerful that it's quite beyond my control...". If punk consists of three chords and jumping up and down to songs about fart jokes, I don't want to be a punk. If it's about questioning, and asking *why*, then I want nothing more than to be one. I want music to *transport* me, not just to *distract* me. - - Andrew [1] My *god* this is pretentious. I'm a scientist, I shouldn't try and write this kind of stuff. [2] It sort of tangentially relates, in some ways, to radioactive waste containment technology: I do electronic structure calculations on disordered solid state systems, and this may include metamicts formed by the inclusion of (eg) depleted uranium, isotopes of strontium, etcetera (from nuclear reactors) in synthetic mineral assemblages such as Synroc. The government wants the right to review, and potentially prevent the distribution of, all "sensitive" scientific research before publication. I won't, personally speaking, be very willing to stand for this; if I have any professional pride as a scientist, I must be willing to speak what I believe to be the scientific truth freely. [3] Free software, and cryptography, in particular. I doubt they're coming after the chess and Go players yet. - -- "Everybody eat your dust; everybody love your dust..." - The Auteurs, "Light Aircraft on Fire" ('After Murder Park') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:23:55 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Anorak Awards Ari, Golden Anoraks are dispensed for acts of anoraxia. Niceness, nastiness, interestingness or boringness doesn't come into it. Apart from the last one ;-) Mark > Maybe we should set up our own (Wire list) Anorak > awards,one for the nicest person and one for the > nastiest. > one for the person that writes the most interesting > stuff,and one for the most boring. > oh,and one for the biggest 'Punk' > I wouldn't want any of 'em meself.Ari ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:31:19 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak Robert, >>speaking of anoraks...i just got back from local used vinyl store..any thoughts on the following groups? joe boxers my daughters wedding the nylons chas jankel<< JoeBoxers were at one stage a version of Subway Sect, believe it or not. Vic's backing band duringh the tuxedo era. Cod northern soul-pop. Couple of decent but very lightweight pop singles (just got lucky, boxer beat), but that's all. Our (not my) daughter's wedding were horrid quirky Nice New Wave, I think from Canada. Lawn Chairs was their "hit" IIRC. The Nylons I can't remember hearing, though I guess it's powerpop. Chas Jankel was the guitarist in Ian Dury & the Blockheads. Wrote most of the music on New Boots & Panties but his solo stuff was lame, like a neutered Squeeze. I'd only venture my hard-earned on any of those if it was very cheap or if the store had a returns policy! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:33:15 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] new on the list Keith, > >>Did you know The Flaming Lips played Can't Get You Out Of My Head on their > recent tour? Seems like my > 'they-wouldn't-know-a-decent-song-if-it-battered-them-over-their-heads' > theory was wrong after all ; )<< > > They played it on the BBC Re-covered show last week. Arhythmic, minor chord > downbeat version. Very entertaining... > > Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:37:29 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak >>> However,...it does indeed depend on the "event" doesn't it?...there are > certain areas that i might be able to catch him (or Graeme) maybe in the > "techno/electronica" event? or maybe even the musique concrete/tape > music/early electronic music event??? > RL Come to think of it I might stand a chance in the Glam event. My...how I'd love to win that gold lame anorak ; )<< I think of myself more as a decathlete (decanorak?) - good across a range of events but probably beatable by a true specialist.... Of course there are huge areas where I know jack shit, but there's always the potential to pull a surprise out of the hat ;-) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:34:59 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak In a message dated 7/28/02 7:31:19 PM Central Daylight Time, Mark Bursa writes: > I'd only venture my hard-earned on any of those if it was very cheap or if > the store had a returns policy! > > Mark > > nah..i didn't buy them..they were only .25 cents...oh well... RL ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 20:44:12 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] anorak In a message dated 7/28/02 7:37:29 PM Central Daylight Time, Mark Bursa writes: > think of myself more as a decathlete (decanorak?) - good across a range of > events but probably beatable by a true specialist.... > > Of course there are huge areas where I know jack shit, but there's always > the potential to pull a surprise out of the hat ;-) > > Mark > > hahhahahahhahaha....."decanorak" ! RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 00:23:15 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] College Kids Mum In a message dated 7/28/02 10:20:41 AM, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: >Paul said Mum had two guest drummers >Don't they also have twin singers? yesiree bob, er bill, um graeme :o) 2 female singers/multi-instrumentalists, 2 male ibook button pushers/multi-instrumentalists, and for this show the 2 drummers whose names i couldn't decifer from the icelandinglish introduction :o) >cost >of standing in a sweatbox with 300 college kids then: >Maybe if you get bored of the knob twiddling, you could try talking to >some of >the college kids. Some may turn out to be quite interesting. Occasionally >you >might meet one brilliant enough to dazzle you. you're right. i could actually try speaking to one of them. knitting factory tends to pack em in though, and it being a hot summer night, i just wasn't in a great mood...until mum took the stage :o) i'd still prefer even a slide show projected onto the stage. anything at all to look at. it'd be more to talk about with the college kids too ;o) - -paul (i will not twiddle knobs unless accompanied by a visual aid) c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 00:31:02 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] used vinyl anorak In a message dated 7/28/02 7:10:40 PM, RLynn9@aol.com writes: > >joe boxers saw them. memory i have is that the lead guy reminded me of the bassist for culture club, and the rest of em had a haircut 100/simply red vibe going. i don't remember any songs, not even their one hit...i know they had one. >my daughters wedding you mean our daughter's wedding? i have vague memories there too, but fond ones. omd-ish springs to mind for some reason. good reason? - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 08:23:48 +0200 From: "Eiliv Konglevoll" Subject: SV: [idealcopy] new on the list Hello and thanks - takk - all to you ! Not much about Wire yet - but maybe later? Interesting one from Andrew on "punk" and The Ideal Copy. Don't think Wire fit in there, or in any other category, difficult to compare them with any other group, and that is good. I put them under "alternative" or "indie" but that could be almost anything . . Anoraks - wasn't that an Echo & B thing and not Wire? Serious and angry young men with Soviet art on the walls? But it's veeery long ago ... best wishes Eiliv - -----Opprinnelig melding----- Fra: Keith Astbury >Hi Eiliv og velcomen, >Hope you enjoy it here. It's a great list. Not sure of the Norwegian >spelling, but... >Hilsen >Keith ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #248 *******************************