From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #217 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, July 2 2002 Volume 05 : Number 217 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] kill your parenthesis! [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka [giluz ] [idealcopy] box set [Aaron Mandel ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka ["Tim" ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka ["Keith Astbury" ] [idealcopy] Hox Bodily Malfunction Over Vien ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] John Cage and The Wombles [Tim ] Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka [Paul Pietromonaco ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:25:59 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka - ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Pietromonaco > Maybe it's because I've been watching "Memento" too much lately (and, with > the new issue of the U.S. DVD I have, I've been watching it in true > chronological order - very interesting that way..), - ------- Hmm, that's almost worth buying a DVD player for - does it hang together? - ------------- but I can't remember if > this was the mailing list that was interested in the 4 CD set by the > Flaming Lips called "Zaireeka". > Well, if it is, you'll be happy to know that Warner Bros. has apparently > brought the 4 CD set back in print. I just bought a brand new copy > yesterday. Not a bootleg - this is an official WB release. I also notice > that amazon.com is listing the CD as being back in print as well. > - ----------- Has anyone ever played this on 4 different CD players, and if so what's it like??? - ------------- > P.S. Have I told you about Sammy Jenkins? - ---------- Not as far as I know. another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:53:08 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope - ----- Original Message ----- From: Andrew Walkingshaw > > There are so many well kept secrets around, some more well kept and some > > less - I think Wire's one of the less well kept (relatively). Faust and > > Henry Cow come to mind when you try to think of something as innovative and > > influential as Wire, > Henry Cow I'm not aware of, but I had a physics teacher at school who was > *very* into Krautrock - and this was about the time Faust toured Scotland. - ----------------- I was very into Henry Cow in the early 70s along with many of the other early Virgin label bands (galling to think I may have helped Branson's rise to power but he was a force for good back then). Henry Cow came out of a left-field, experimental jazz/rock environment and included a number of players who are still out there - Fred Frith on guitar, Chris Cutler on drums, John Greaves on bass among others. They played improvised, often chaotic music which was challenging (at least as a non-jazz fan) but often beautiful to listen to. I saw them play the Bath Alternative festival in 71ish to an audience of about 30 and I fell in love with them, especially Frith's way with a guitar and Cutler's cymbal-heavy drum style. They supported Faust on the legendary tour a year or so later when Faust - to my recollection - played pretty much the same piece half a dozen times while watching TV and playing pinball in between tunes. If you want to explore Henry Cow I'd recommend their second album 'Unrest' which captures the jazz/rock era well ( a favourite of author Jonathan Coe incidentally) and has a tune with the great title 'Bittern Storm over Ulm' and the third album 'In Praise of Learning' which was quite a departure. By now they'd teamed up with Slapp Happy (another Virgin band comprising Peter Blegvad, Anthony Moore and Dagmar Krause) and went down a song-writing route, albeit not one likely to appeal to large numbers of the paying public. Much of the album was a Marxist call to arms ("Arise workmen and seize the future") sung superbly by Krause. The album opens with 'War', which only Mark E Smith would ever have considered covering - can't remember which album off hand but it was about six or seven years ago: "Tell of the birth, tell how war appeared on Earth". Slapp Happy also did a great album around this time - 'Desperate Straights'. God knows if any of these are on CD, as I've never been one to repurchase vinyl holdings. After this they released a couple more disappointing albums and then split to do solo stuff. But they were the business for a while, at least in my house. another the Keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:35:48 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka << third, mark, would you be able to make a quadrophonic or OCTophonic! mix of it, or only a stereo mix? is there a way to output the 8 tracks each to their own speaker? i'm not familiar with cubase at all. is it just software or is there a hardware component? >> Cubase is a digital studio package similar to Pro Tools. Just software... If you had an 8-track mixing desk with eight speaker outs, yes, you could make an octophonic version. Simply record each of the stereo channels of each CD to a track, and play it back in Cubase. But as fas as I know the only 'finished' mix you could make would be a stereo mix. You could use any of the recording packages available to do this. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 01:18:55 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope on 01/07/02 12:08, Andrew Walkingshaw at andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk wrote: > I think we're actually agreeing here: it's just a question of > which is symptom, and which effect. I wasn't trying to argue that Wire > deliberately avoided mainstream success, just that they were and are > unwilling to compromise what they do in order to *seek* it. My > contention was that, if by accident Wire were to hit the mainstream, > they'd have many of the same "image problems" that other bands which > actively *use* their detached viewpoint as a lyrical tool or perspective > have; specifically, they'd leave themselves open to accusations of being > cold, of being arrogant, of being aloof. (Note that, amongst others, > the most popular art-school band of the last 10 years in the UK - Blur - > are "guilty" of the same thing, only way *more* explicitly. I don't know > if there's a connection here, but part of art is certainly commentary > on the environment ...) There's a great book by Simon Frith called "art into pop" which is about that phenomenon of art school graduates and art school ideas in pop. > I just enjoy the music, I think. :) But you did write it all down, though. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:45:37 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] kill your parenthesis! My favourite was always... The reality of (air) fried borsk, by the Driving Stupid, which you can find on Pebbles Vol 3. Mark << what about the monumental slab of funk known as: > > Aqua Boogie (A Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop) from Parliament's "Motor > Booty Affair" lp >> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 01:48:22 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka on 01/07/02 23:40, Eardrumbuz@aol.com at Eardrumbuz@aol.com wrote: > third, mark, would you be able to make a quadrophonic or OCTophonic! mix of > it, or only a stereo mix? is there a way to output the 8 tracks each to their > own speaker? i'm not familiar with cubase at all. is it just software or is > there a hardware component? Cubase is just software, but there are soundcards compatible with Steinberg's ASIO audio engine technology. With those you could make a surround mix and burn it to DVD, I guess - I don't know if you can actually do that, even if you do own a DVD burner. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:19:12 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: [idealcopy] box set Was there ever a consensus on whether the pink box of the first three albums was remastered better than the Restless CDs (or the original EMI CD versions?) aaron ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 00:20:59 +0100 From: "Tim" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka After discussion of how to combine all 4 CDs of Zaireeka to make single mix: Paul CD wrote >third, mark, would you be able to make a quadraphonic or OCTophonic! mix of >it, or only a stereo mix? is there a way to output the 8 tracks each to their >own speaker? I'm not familiar with cubase at all. is it just software or is >there a hardware component? Not sure about Cubase. There are plug-ins available that produce 'surround sound', so you could do a full quad mix of Zaireeka, as long as you had the Dolby surround gear to play it back on. You'd need a hefty PC to run four long tracks of digital audio at the same time, you'd probably need to mix track by track. You also need a soundcard that can output in 5:1 Surround Sound...My Soundblaster Audigy does that apparently, although I've yet to figure out how it works. I was just going to rip the four CDs to MP3 and play them back using mixing software like Mixmeister and make a nice stereo mix so I can listen to it on walkman. Course the intention of Flaming Lips was that the CDs should be played back to air using portable machines or whatever else. The position of each player, the acoustics of the room, speed fluctuations and the reliance on getting four pals to manually trigger the pause button at the start of each track...and the resultant delays and phasing means Zaireeka never sounds the same twice. It is worth playing it in this way, as it does sound quite spectacular. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 00:37:26 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka > Course the intention of Flaming Lips was that the CDs should be played back > to air using portable machines or whatever else. The position of each > player, the acoustics of the room, speed fluctuations and the reliance on > getting four pals to manually trigger the pause button at the start of each > track...and the resultant delays and phasing means Zaireeka never sounds the > same twice. This is all well and good but I found that the last Flaming Lips album sounded better with the volume turned off. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 02:13:30 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] There's allways intellectual and emotional bliss! on 01/07/02 13:18, Bart van Damme at bartvandamme@home.nl wrote: >>> The inability to classify Wire is what makes them great art, > > Not necessarily so... whether something is classifiable or not doesn't have > to say anything on it being art or not. I didn't mean anything classifiable is not. It's not the theoretical process which led to my conclusion - it's the realisation that my favourite musicians are usually unclassifiable and usually operate(d) in the margins. on 01/07/02 23:53, Keith Knight at steeleknight@lineone.net wrote: > > I was very into Henry Cow in the early 70s. I saw them play the Bath Alternative festival in > 71ish to an audience of about 30 and I fell in love with them, especially > Frith's way with a guitar and Cutler's cymbal-heavy drum style. I was born at the wrong time at the wrong place! > If you want to explore Henry Cow I'd recommend their second album 'Unrest' > which captures the jazz/rock era well ( a favourite of author Jonathan Coe > incidentally) and has a tune with the great title 'Bittern Storm over Ulm' > and the third album 'In Praise of Learning' which was quite a departure. By > now they'd teamed up with Slapp Happy (another Virgin band comprising Peter > Blegvad, Anthony Moore and Dagmar Krause) and went down a song-writing > route, albeit not one likely to appeal to large numbers of the paying > public. Hans Eisler / Kurt Weill with some free jazz, free rock, some early zappa, Karl Marx and a sensitivity to noise and improvisation. > Much of the album was a Marxist call to arms ("Arise workmen and > seize the future") sung superbly by Krause. The album opens with 'War', > which only Mark E Smith would ever have considered covering - can't remember > which album off hand but it was about six or seven years ago: "Tell of the > birth, tell how war appeared on Earth". That was Middle Class Revolt, I think - and there isn't any resemblance to the original. Slapp Happy also did a great album > around this time - 'Desperate Straights'. God knows if any of these are on > CD, as I've never been one to repurchase vinyl holdings. Desperate Straights was a Slapp Happy/Henry Cow collaboration, last seen on one CD with Slapp Happy's Casablanca Moon. Henry Cow's Concerts double CD is also Recommended (haha) and it also has an amazing live version of Wyatt's Little Red Riding Hood Hit the Road (with Wyatt and Krause on vocals), and most of the various solo projects and collaborations which were released later. Most noticeable are Art Bears, News From Babel (which also feature Wyatt on their 2nd album, 'letters home'), Casiber, Duck & Cover (a one-off gig released on Recommended 1st collection), etc. D Krause's two first solos are of more or less traditional (but great) covers to Weill/Eisler/Brecht songs. Now - this is great art - did I hear anyone mention Blur recently? Giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 03:20:10 +0100 From: Tim Subject: Re: [idealcopy] A Blast from the Past Wild Bill rummaged in the dustbin of history in search of a grumble >Kiddy Tim hoped we could all single out Bully Bill then plugged his own activities: >I have no singles in the pipeline but >I have a track on a recently released compilation > >Laboratory Series 2 >www.planetsounds.co.uk Bills contribution is under the moniker of 'Fibreglass Messiah' and is entitled 'A Threat to the Toddlers' I haven't heard it, but I imagine it may be somewhat challenging. Am I right? >Alongside other luminaries of the Manchester experimental scene such >as Mild Man Jan, Villa 21, Andi Chapple, The Ball, Illuminati & Bess Keloid. I never realised you were a luminary! Modesty precludes me from proclaiming myself a Luminary of the Manchester Experimental Scene. I prefer to think of myself as the Godfather of Soul. > >>>Our new EP will be available through Goooques in Agut. Check our website >for details. > >Like fuck I will! Please yourself. I read your website. I didn't understand any of it though. >I get Swim stuff to review Bragging Billy! He gets free stuff from Swim you know.... >, you can fuckin' well give me your single if you >want me to listen to it! Typical music journalist...always wanting something for nothing.....and thinks he's doing you a favour just listening to something! Don't expect a freebie from us. We wouldn't waste the vinyl on you, darling! > >>>Its probably too mainstream for your ears, dear. > >So you're expecting to hit the Top 40 with it? Not in its initial form which will be a limited vinyl pressing on a small label with a very small marketing budget. However, the music on the disc was intended to appeal to as many people as possible. It is accessible, melodic and we consider it to be somewhat funky. We make no claims to be making experimental or 'outsider' music. Although we do 'experiment' and we improvise constantly. >No worries then, there's plenty much more interesting stuff to listen to >instead if that's the case. >like > >http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine/zero21.htm I Like the Nick Hornby-esque list detailing which Peel Sessions you've taped this year. Most informative. NP. The Durutti Column - Return of the Sporadic Recordings (re-issue with extra disc of more sporadic recordings, sleevnotes by Vini, Bruce, and Anthony H Wilson...didn't know it was coming out till I saw it in a shop today...isn't it nice when that happens?) ________________________________________ Two Fat Persons....Click Click Click http://www.kidsindestructible.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 01:39:55 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Hox Bodily Malfunction Over Vien Eric pondered over Vien >>>I end up with a choice of two. Vien-- plucked from the Punk/Ska section, and Bodily Functions (Matthew Herbert) from my Electronica section perusal. Funny thing is that I heard a Herbert track that recalled a watered down Hox instrumental (or compumental)... Vien would've been a more exciting proposition, but then I'm quite likely the biggest fan of 'The First Letter' around, easily the best thing Wir did by a long shot. You think Colin's shouting a bit on R&B01? Listen to 'The First Letter' sounds like he was losing his voice over the border crossing. Colin & Bruce both consider the mix to be a mess, but I think it would be hard to improve it - I love the mashed up density of it. I also like the Dead C. definitely one for the skapunx. Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 01:47:19 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Would You? Faced with a choice of nights out in 'moribund Manc magog scene' would you choose... 1. The Damned Ol' Gothpunk p-stoo-rockists ham it up impersonating vampires in berets etc. 2. David Byrne Ol' ethno punko header gabbler hams it up for about twice the price of ol' Goths, proving it's not just once in a life time. 3. To Rococo Rot German trio create unique rhythmic dimensions beyond space, hypnotised... 4. High Society 106 See more of Lap and Pole Dancing Girls at www.highsociety106.com Maybe a different kind of Pole Dancing to Stefan Betke, but who knows? 5. Stay in & bitch on internet about something or other 6. etc. etc. Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine/zero21.htm No prizes to guess which one I chose. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 02:31:13 +0100 From: Tim Subject: [idealcopy] John Cage and The Wombles SILENCE IS NOT GOLDEN! Classical chart-toppers THE PLANETS have been accused of ripping off the avant-garde, experimentalist JOHN CAGE because their new album contains a silent 60-second track. Cage, who died in 1992, famously composed the silence piece 4'33'' in his prime. Mike Batt, the man behind 'The Wombles' and Vanessa Mae who put the silent track on The Planets' album, has now received a letter from enraged representatives of Cage, The Guardian reports. Batt said: "I've received a letter on behalf of John Cage's music publishers. I was in hysterics when I read their letter. "As my mother said when I told her, 'Which part of the silence are they claiming you nicked?'. They say they are claiming copyright on a piece of mine called 'One Minute's Silence' on The Planets' album, which I credit Batt/Cage just for a laugh. But my silence is original silence, not a quotation from his silence." ________________________________________ Two Fat Persons....Click Click Click http://www.kidsindestructible.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 19:23:11 -0700 From: Paul Pietromonaco Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka >> the new issue of the U.S. DVD I have, I've been watching it in true >> chronological order - very interesting that way..), >------- >Hmm, that's almost worth buying a DVD player for - does it hang together? Quite well actually. It takes some of the mystery away from the movie, but it does make the motivations of the characters a lot clearer. Note - this is available on the standard UK edition of the DVD, but in the US this is only available on the recently released "special" edition. And even then you have to figure out the complex menu system - the disc is designed to look like a mental illness test. The answers to the "questions" determine what you bonus features you get to see. >> this was the mailing list that was interested in the 4 CD set by the >> Flaming Lips called "Zaireeka". >----------- >Has anyone ever played this on 4 different CD players, and if so what's it >like??? > > We managed 3 players last night. It's the first time I've ever owned the CD. It was pretty wild walking around the room and having sound come out of every corner. >------------- >> P.S. Have I told you about Sammy Jenkins? >---------- > >Not as far as I know. > His problem was that he didn't have a system. Me - I've got a system. Repetition is the key. Repitition is the key. You got to have a system. Repetition is the key.* Cheers, Leonard Shelby.... er... I mean Paul *See Memento for further information about Sammy...(^_^) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:29:30 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka In a message dated 7/1/02 7:23:20 PM, timrobinson@cwcom.net writes: >to manually trigger the pause button at the start of each > >track...and the resultant delays and phasing means Zaireeka never sounds >the > >same twice. > > > >It is worth playing it in this way, as it does sound quite spectacular. definitely the most appealing thing about it to me :o) although, i'd like to have a handy dandy version as well. - -paul c.d. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:49:57 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Would You? In a message dated 7/1/02 7:53:55 PM Central Daylight Time, umur_ot@hotmail.com writes: > 3. To Rococo Rot > German trio create unique rhythmic dimensions beyond space, hypnotised... > > well i would choose this option....did i guess the right one? RL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:46:34 EDT From: Rain19c@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re : parenthesis "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me (than a frontal lobotomy)" by Randy Hanzlick ~michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2002 01:56:08 -0500 From: JH3 Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [OT] Flaming Lips Zaireeka >> I keep meaning to copy this into Cubase and produce a >> "full" version of it (without the need for four stereos)! That's been done, actually; I have a copy (from MP3's), and I think someone did a 5.1 mix too, but I'm not so sure where to get it. I mean, it's not *bad*, but since every piece is set up with the song on one disc and the other discs filled with various noises, "found" sounds, and what-not, you really lose almost the entire effect by not separating them as much as possible. I doubt a 5.1 mix would even give you enough separation to make it worthwhile, though it would obviously be better than the stereo version... Ultimately, though, the whole thing's a stunt; musically it's not all that great, but if you do take the trouble to set it all up "properly", the effect is really pretty impressive in spite of that. So I guess what I'm saying is that the "handy" version is so much less... *whatever* than the 4-CD version, it's not worth bothering with (IMO, of course). > P.S. Have I told you about Sammy Jenkins? "Jankis," wasn't it? I'm not sure, though... My short-term memory isn't what it used to be! John "lips still cooling from the last time" Hedges ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #217 *******************************