From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #215 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, July 1 2002 Volume 05 : Number 215 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: [idealcopy] GENIUZEZ ["Andrew Lumbard" ] [idealcopy] NP [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] NP [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] NP [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] NP ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope ["Keith Astbury" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] GENIUZEZ Nice weird stuff, Bart. A few of my favourite 'time wasters' http://www.superbad.com/ http://www.soulbath.com/ http://www.sodaplay.com/ AndyL >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-idealcopy@smoe.org [mailto:owner-idealcopy@smoe.org]On >> Behalf Of Bart van Damme >> Sent: 28 June 2002 10:46 >> To: voyteck@webtv.net >> Cc: wire-news >> Subject: Re: [idealcopy] GENIUZEZ >> >> >> Totally agree about Hoogerbrugge being a genius, Voyteck. >> >> Turned out he is a friend of a good artist-friend of mine... >> [whom I'll also shamelessly promote here: http://www.bezembinder.nl ] >> >> Perhaps you'll also like [or allready know] these url's as they too are >> based on research, wit and/or poetry: >> >> http://surface.yugop.com >> http://www.eboy.com >> http://www.nobodyhere.com >> http://aphextwin.nu >> http://www.quickhoney.com >> >> Cheers, >> Bart >> >> >> > Thanks Bart! Your suggested "bookmark" is multi-media genius! Some of >> > the clicks had me in vortexes which had to time out (or through), >> > however, I would have missed the full concept of those otherwise. >> > Excellentium! (another the element) >> > http://www.hoogerbrugge.com >> > Brilliant!!! >> > voyteck ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 16:06:30 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: [idealcopy] NP NP: Wire [Pink Flag] - Brazil ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 10:42:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NP - --- Bart van Damme wrote: > NP: Wire [Pink Flag] - Brazil Beat you to it brt,i played that yesterday,WAKE UP! ===== everything in moderation is good for you,including excess. Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:25:58 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NP >> NP: Wire [Pink Flag] - Brazil > Beat you to it brt,i played that yesterday,WAKE UP! Prove it! ;-) Bart Everybody stuck to Glastonbury? So quite... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 20:48:51 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] NP > >> NP: Wire [Pink Flag] - Brazil > > > Beat you to it brt,i played that yesterday,WAKE UP! > > > Prove it! ;-) > Bart > > Everybody stuck to Glastonbury? So quite... I'm here. Been listening to Mazzy Star's So Tonight That I Might See (1993) quite a bit last few days. I've always loved Fade Into You, but it's only now I'm realising how much I like the rest of it. Blue Light, another FIY-like beauty, is pretty damn gorgeous and there's a nice abrasive Velvets feel at times too. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:12:09 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope Heeeey, So Tonight... is allways been a favourite of mine too! Amazing what Mazzy Star could do with a couple of simple cords - very pure... [though a singer like Hope Sandoval helps too - Is she still with that Reid guy from J&MC?] Perfect for a rainy summerevening Keith! Bart > I'm here. Been listening to Mazzy Star's So Tonight That I Might See (1993) > quite a bit last few days. I've always loved Fade Into You, but it's only > now I'm realising how much I like the rest of it. Blue Light, another > FIY-like beauty, is pretty damn gorgeous and there's a nice abrasive Velvets > feel at times too. > > Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:36:36 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope Bart said > Heeeey, So Tonight... is allways been a favourite of mine too! Amazing what > Mazzy Star could do with a couple of simple cords - very pure... [though a > singer like Hope Sandoval helps too - Is she still with that Reid guy from > J&MC?] I don't think so. I seem to recall reading that they'd split up. Did you like that M.O.R. duet they did, Sometimes Always. A bit Radio 2, but lovely! Keith > > I'm here. Been listening to Mazzy Star's So Tonight That I Might See (1993) > > quite a bit last few days. I've always loved Fade Into You, but it's only > > now I'm realising how much I like the rest of it. Blue Light, another > > FIY-like beauty, is pretty damn gorgeous and there's a nice abrasive Velvets > > feel at times too. > > > > Keith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 22:34:00 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope >> Is she still with that Reid guy from >> J&MC?] > > I don't think so. I seem to recall reading that they'd split up. Did you > like that M.O.R. duet they did, Sometimes Always. A bit Radio 2, but lovely! > > Keith Heard OF it... I'll look it up on the net... Bart NP [on guitar that is] Mazzy Star - FIY [with highpitched voice on these cords] I just got it at: http://www.mazzystar.nu/txt/FadeIntoYou.txt ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 21:50:56 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 10:34:00PM +0200, Bart van Damme wrote: > >> Is she still with that Reid guy from > >> J&MC?] > > > > I don't think so. I seem to recall reading that they'd split up. Did you > > like that M.O.R. duet they did, Sometimes Always. A bit Radio 2, but lovely Mazzy Star (and indeed Big Star, who I know are unconnected) are one of these bands who I've regularly heard namedropped, but never actually *heard*. Are they worth the effort of seeking out? I like shambling indie pop, in a sort of guilty-pleasure way, in general: I, in particular, *really* like the Delgados - "Everything Goes around the Water" especially. I apologise for having a sweet tooth, and I'll prescribe myself a course of Merzbow if the list purists think it's necessary :) As to Wire (shock), I think this list has concreted something I'd noticed about them. Imagine a Venn diagram of pop acts: Wire lie at the intersection of a lot of these sets - pure-play guitar pop (15th, Map Ref), punk (12XU), the Ideal Copy stuff which I *really* need to listen to - I'll send the order off to Sister Ray next week, honest! - the techno-influenced stuff on Manscape and First Letter ... so you wind up with fans who have remarkably little musically in common except a love of the band which intersects all of these sets (cf, and I hope they don't mind me using them as examples, Keith Astbury and the pseudonymous Graham "Bill Hick" Rowland). I find this fascinating. Some other bands seem to manage this to some extent, though very few are as avant-garde as Wire: REM managed to pull it off for a bit pre-"Green", the Pixies, and recently Mogwai/GYBE (and in a different direction, even Radiohead) seem to manage to straddle the mainstream and avant-garde consciousness. I just named a bunch of my favourite bands too - and what's remarkable is the debt a lot of these bands acknowledge to each other (the influence of REM on Radiohead, for example, is well known - but less well known is Ed O'Brien's quote that "On Pablo Honey, we were in debt to the Pixies and Dinosaur Jr. up to our eyeballs"...) Andrew [np: Jeff Buckley - Sketches (for "My Sweetheart the Drunk")] - -- "Maybe I'm crazy, maybe diminished; maybe I'm innocent, maybe I'm finished, Maybe I blacked out - how, how do I play this?" - - R.E.M. , 'Diminished' ("Up") adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:38:02 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope >>>> Is she still with that Reid guy from J&MC?] >>> I don't think so. I seem to recall reading that they'd split up. Did you >>> like that M.O.R. duet they did, Sometimes Always. A bit Radio 2, but lovely > > Mazzy Star (and indeed Big Star, who I know are unconnected) are one of these > bands who I've regularly heard namedropped, but never actually *heard*. Are > they worth the effort of seeking out? http://www.mazzystar.nu has a very extended soundfiles page so you can hear for yourself. Perhaps try [as Keith said] Fade into You [So Tonight That I Might See], wich probably gave them their "15 minutes of fame" If you like [the later] Nick Cave and the Jesus & Mary Chain you'll probably love it. > I like shambling indie pop, in a sort of guilty-pleasure way, in general: I, > in particular, *really* like the Delgados - "Everything Goes around the Water" > especially. I apologise for having a sweet tooth, and I'll prescribe myself > a course of Merzbow if the list purists think it's necessary :) There's room for all flavours now and again, isn't there? I should hope we're past that on this list... I still have to try these Delgado guys... what should I start with? > As to Wire (shock), I think this list has concreted something I'd noticed > about them. Imagine a Venn diagram of pop acts: Wire lie at the intersection > of a lot of these sets - pure-play guitar pop (15th, Map Ref), punk (12XU), > the Ideal Copy stuff which I *really* need to listen to - I'll send the order > off to Sister Ray next week, honest! - the techno-influenced stuff on > Manscape and First Letter ... so you wind up with fans who have remarkably > little musically in common except a love of the band which intersects all > of these sets (cf, and I hope they don't mind me using them as examples, Keith > Astbury and the pseudonymous Graham "Bill Hick" Rowland). Strange thing is, though Wire do/did pop, they've never been even close to mainstream. Last year there was a longlasting thread about "Wire Pop Heaven" and the amount of favourites send in was quite astonishing. I like it all I'm afraid, from Map Ref and Eardrum Buzz to Lewis/Bruce's stuff [perhaps In Esse is the only one I can't say I like very much - but it's bloody interesting though!] What I can't grasp is why Wire still is the well kept secret that they are even for those interested in indiemusic. Their span is matched by very few other bands and perhaps only surpassed by the Beatles. > I find this fascinating. Some other bands seem to manage this to some extent, > though very few are as avant-garde as Wire: REM managed to pull it off for > a bit pre-"Green", the Pixies, and recently Mogwai/GYBE (and in a different > direction, even Radiohead) seem to manage to straddle the mainstream and > avant-garde consciousness. I just named a bunch of my favourite bands too - > and what's remarkable is the debt a lot of these bands acknowledge to each > other (the influence of REM on Radiohead, for example, is well known - but > less well known is Ed O'Brien's quote that "On Pablo Honey, we were in > debt to the Pixies and Dinosaur Jr. up to our eyeballs"...) Anyone know what Frank Black had to say about Wire? Can't remember him saying anything about them. Curious... [I know Pavement were wild about them] > Andrew [np: Jeff Buckley - Sketches (for "My Sweetheart the Drunk")] Got a cdr of this one a few months ago from a fellow who was a bit too enthousiastic about it and now I still haven't played it... Should I? Bart NP: Silver Jews - American Water ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 23:17:07 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope On Sun, Jun 30, 2002 at 11:38:02PM +0200, Bart van Damme wrote: > http://www.mazzystar.nu has a very extended soundfiles page so you can hear > for yourself. Perhaps try [as Keith said] Fade into You [So Tonight That I > Might See], wich probably gave them their "15 minutes of fame" If you like > [the later] Nick Cave and the Jesus & Mary Chain you'll probably love it. Thanks: I'll have a listen. > There's room for all flavours now and again, isn't there? I should hope > we're past that on this list... > I still have to try these Delgado guys... what should I start with? Well, "The Great Eastern" is their best known album, so that or "Peloton": "Domestiques" is meant to be a lot rougher round the edges, but I haven't heard it. As for songs, "Everything Goes Around the Water", "Pull the Wires from the Wall", "American Trilogy"... > it's bloody interesting though!] What I can't grasp is why Wire still is the > well kept secret that they are even for those interested in indiemusic. > Their span is matched by very few other bands and perhaps only surpassed by > the Beatles. The "Outdoor Miner" 'scandal' can't have helped: add in some wilfully contrary (whether artistically justified or not) decisions by the band, and the fact they don't seem to have ever really *sought* pop success, and you get a band who've always been on the edge of the popular conscious. I suspect that Wire actually work better there: a lot of their work strikes me as having a criticism/commentary-like slant to it, a certain detachedness, which might be lost if they were fully in the melee, so to speak. (My 10 pence, anyway.) > > Andrew [np: Jeff Buckley - Sketches (for "My Sweetheart the Drunk")] > > Got a cdr of this one a few months ago from a fellow who was a bit too > enthousiastic about it and now I still haven't played it... Should I? It's Big (AORish, at points, in fact) Rock, a bit overblown and pretentious in places, but it has its moments (particularly the first track, "The Sky is a Landfill". On balance, I think I prefer 'Grace' and 'Mystery White Boy' (live); but Jeff Buckley's voice is staggering on this record, and I do *like* it - maybe not *love* it, though. It's worth a listen: "Grace" is worth owning. Andrew (np: Super Furry Animals - "Mwng") - -- "London ice cracks on a seamless line, We're hanging on for dear life." - Blur, "For Tomorrow" ('Modern Life is Rubbish') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2002 18:52:09 -0400 From: "k erickson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope >>Mazzy Star (and indeed Big Star, who I know are unconnected) are one of these >>bands who I've regularly heard namedropped, but never actually *heard*. Are >>they worth the effort of seeking out? my brother lent me a Big Star cd some time ago. i did not find it too memorable overall, but the two songs i already knew from This Mortal Coil covers are indeed excellent songs, and are worth hearing the originals from Chilton: 'holocaust' and 'kangaroo'. (TMC also cover 'alone' and 'not me' from Colin.) i'm sure some other listers would recommend Big Star more unreservedly....? kristoph np: laika - silver apples of the moon - ---------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 02:54:51 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope on 01/07/02 00:17, Andrew Walkingshaw at andrew-wire@lexical.org.uk wrote: >> it's bloody interesting though!] What I can't grasp is why Wire still is the >> well kept secret that they are even for those interested in indiemusic. >> Their span is matched by very few other bands and perhaps only surpassed by >> the Beatles. > > The "Outdoor Miner" 'scandal' can't have helped: add in some wilfully > contrary (whether artistically justified or not) decisions by the band, and > the fact they don't seem to have ever really *sought* pop success, and you > get a band who've always been on the edge of the popular conscious. I suspect > that Wire actually work better there: a lot of their work strikes me as > having a criticism/commentary-like slant to it, a certain detachedness, > which might be lost if they were fully in the melee, so to speak. There are so many well kept secrets around, some more well kept and some less - I think Wire's one of the less well kept (relatively). Faust and Henry Cow come to mind when you try to think of something as innovative and influential as Wire, and they're even less famous. The fact that they played with pop as well as with less commercial genres doesn't change their art-rock attitude. Their music is much more multi-layered and obscure than most, not because it is inherently inaccessible, but because it is always on the look for the next step. That's why Wire were never wholly 'punk', never wholly 'electronic' - they never conform to genres, they just use them. Bart mentioned the Beatles and one could say that they transcended genre as well, and they did, but they did it in a very different way. Their unique time and circumstances allowed them to do it from the centre of the system. Beatles were THE mainstream and the fact that they used their status to experiment and still maintain it is not relevant to the case of wire. The Beatles led the scene - Wire were always at the margins. The inability to classify Wire is what makes them great art, where alongside the superb form and content you also have an ideology which transcends musical style. I think what's confusing here is the fact that the 15th, for example, would be a great pop song even if it was written and performed by a mainstream pop band, and that's the appeal of Wire - intellectual and emotional bliss, and not just pleasure (I use Roland Barthes terminology here). giluz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 07:27:05 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope > I think what's confusing here is the fact that the 15th, for > example, would be a great pop song even if it was written and performed by a > mainstream pop band.... > > giluz Well there has to be a distinct possibility that we will see this track in the UK singles chart this year. Apart from their recent Emerge single, The 15th is the one track that always gets mentioned in Fischerspoon articles, basically as their one other 'decent' track. Unless they refuse for royalty/financial reasons, there has to be a pretty good chance that they will release it as a single. Keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 07:41:42 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] there's allways Hope > you wind up with fans who have remarkably > little musically in common except a love of the band which intersects all > of these sets (cf, and I hope they don't mind me using them as examples, Keith > Astbury and the pseudonymous Graham "Bill Hick" Rowland). Well spookily enough, we did end up at the same Sonic Youth gig last week so it's not JUST Wire! And a lot of the bands that he mentioned he liked from the late 80's/early 90's were bands I was also into. (Don't think he mentioned The Bastards though. Monticello - Now there's an album!) Still, whilst my tastes aren't quite so lightweight/teenybop/retro as some readers might think, I take your point. And whilst I'm still looking forward to hearing Melt Banana for the first time, it's probably safe to say I have more Dusty Springfield records in my collection than he has! Keith ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #215 *******************************