From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #192 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Tuesday, June 11 2002 Volume 05 : Number 192 Today's Subjects: ----------------- AW: AW: [idealcopy] searching a song [Woerner Frank ] Re: AW: [idealcopy] searching a song [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Re: miscellaneous [MarkBursa@aol.com] [idealcopy] Re: Fischerspooner [HowardJSpencer@aol.com] Re: AW: [idealcopy] searching a song ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] Re: Fischerspooner [Aaron Mandel ] [idealcopy] WORLD CUP...ahhh! a lovely day.. [RLynn9@aol.com] [idealcopy] Techno Animal ["Fergus Kelly" ] [idealcopy] He Hailed Eno ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] Barting in a Cottage ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] Sigmund Freud meets Benny Hill ["Bill Hick" ] Re: [idealcopy] Where to find Noises? [eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang)] [idealcopy] Super Etoile De Dakar ["ian.s. jackson" ] [idealcopy] Re: ... ENTERTAIN US! [Michael Flaherty ] Re: [idealcopy] Ol' Gig Diaries Giggle ["Keith Knight" ] Re: [idealcopy] (Off topic) Something rotten... ["Keith Knight" Subject: AW: AW: [idealcopy] searching a song > -----Urspr|ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Keith Astbury [mailto:keith.astbury10@virgin.net] > Gesendet: Montag, 10. Juni 2002 15:18 > An: MarkBursa@aol.com; Woerner Frank; idealcopy@smoe.org > Betreff: Re: AW: [idealcopy] searching a song > > > > << I even got "nerve pylon" from the lines. I had about 30 seconds > > of that song record from a John Peel broadcast in the eigties > > when my cassette ended. It was impossible to buy here in > Germany. >> > > > > An excellent single. A Wire-related record too.... Special > Golden Anorak > > award for the first person to spot the link ;-) > > > > Mark > > Don't know the answer, but is that the same Lines who > released 'White Night' > in 1978? Can't recall ever hearing anything apart from that > single - which I > absolutely LOVED! (and still do) > > Did they ever release an album then? Sure they did ... I have it. But since taping that short part of "Nerve Pylon" off John Peel I tried for over 20 years now to get this single ... impossible. Thanks to audiogalaxy I have it now at least as mp3. I also have a very good 5 track ep from them. I'm on the hunt now for a short-lived group named "Red Flag" and an african late 70ies/early80ies group named "super etoile de dakar". regards, FrankfromBavaria ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 11:34:17 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: miscellaneous > "you've been reading my diary, now you know me inside out > ..." Catching up... ////dunnno the title but its by fiat lux (bill nelsons brother IIRC , what a claim to fame , eh). pretty drippy new romantic ballad? p It was called Secrets. I liked it, being prone to bouts of drippiness (Virginia Astley being my most obvious weak spot). - -- > - MISSED A SHOW? - > An exciting service will be coming soon for 6 Music Online and all of the >BBC Radio websites. This will allow you to listen to some of our specialist >music shows whenever you want for up to a week after they are broadcast on >air. Initially the shows on offer will be Brinsley Forde's Lively Up >Yourself, Bruce Dickinson's Rock Show and Freak Show, Bob Harris, and Craig >Charles' Funk show. You'll also be able to access specialist music shows >from the other BBC networks. Watch this space for more information! This sort of thing has me looking upwards at the rafters and wondering if they'd take a nail and a suitable length of rope. The self satisfaction and conservatism of some institutions knows no bounds. Mark B asked about sonic youth: >Anyone else going to the London gog? Or indeed the Magog. I'm thinking about it - will let you know if thought turns into action. Thanks to Fergus for the classically slanted tips. I've been listening to Holst a lot recently, not the planets but his lesser known choral works. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:12:07 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] searching a song << you missed the obvious giving us "lines" pun there mark ; )<< heh! nice one!... >> and what happened to poor old hwyel phillips then? >> Tossed away in the chaff of rock's discarded band members. The Lines' own Pete Best. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:25:41 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: miscellaneous << Mark B asked about sonic youth: >Anyone else going to the London gog? Or indeed the Magog. I'm thinking about it - will let you know if thought turns into action. >> Ithankyou! Always thought "gig" was a pretty crap term. Perhaps the list should develop its own language here - as Joy Division are now forever Joy Davidson, perhaps gis should from now on be Magogs. I'm going to SY on the 2nd night BTW (25/6). As far as I know the 24th Magog is sold out. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 09:00:45 EDT From: HowardJSpencer@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] Re: Fischerspooner Graeme asked: << Would you say that Fischerspooner are derivative and secondhand? I'm just curious as all I've heard is their Wire cover and it seemed very 80s to me. >> Yes, essentially I'd go along with the reviews I've seen. It's Visage, albeit stripped down and laquered with 'irony'. That said, I do like the cover of the 15th, 80s or not, and Emerge was a good single. Just bought Miss Kittin and the Hacker which is a much better example of the same genre. Standout track, Frank Sinatra, has the chorus 'Suck my dick/kiss my ass' sung a la Flying lizard Sally. Lovely. I agree substantially that Radio one has always been shit apart from Peel, though I feel sure that Skinner/Jensen were better than the current early evening fare. >Wouldn't you just love a satin jacket emblazoned with 'Blur'? I'd much prefer one emblazoned with 'Beatrice and Sidney Webb' if they could get it all on. Howard (hoping that the new address works) Latest CD score- Blur 3 (rarely played gifts) Oasis 0 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:26:49 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] searching a song > >> and what happened to poor old hwyel phillips then? >> > > The Lines' own Pete Best. > > Mark what a sad epitaph that is ; ) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:30:53 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Fischerspooner howard said > I agree substantially that Radio one has always been shit apart from Peel, > though I feel sure that Skinner/Jensen were better than the current early > evening fare. i think mark & lard are as good as it's gonna get in a daytime show. although i prefered it when they were on at night and obviously had more input into what made their playlist, they still sneak the odd decent record through. in fact i first heard clinic ('evil bill') on their daytime show. keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:43:16 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: miscellaneous > -- > - MISSED A SHOW? - > > An exciting service will be coming soon for 6 Music Online and all of the > >BBC Radio websites. This will allow you to listen to some of our specialist > >music shows whenever you want for up to a week after they are broadcast on > >air. Initially the shows on offer will be Brinsley Forde's Lively Up > >Yourself, Bruce Dickinson's Rock Show and Freak Show, Bob Harris, and Craig > >Charles' Funk show. You'll also be able to access specialist music shows > >from the other BBC networks. Watch this space for more information! > > This sort of thing has me looking upwards at the rafters and wondering > if they'd take a nail and a suitable length of rope. The self > satisfaction and conservatism of some institutions knows no bounds. i don't see what the problem is myself, howard. if you like reggae or rock or funk or whatever, then what's wrong with being able to access specialist shows where you might hear something that takes your fancy. i've been listening to that WFMU radio station that stephen recommended and have heard some pretty decent stuff on the cherry blossom clinic show. as a reggae fan, i might give one of brinsley fords shows a listen, even if the playlists i've seen so far are a bit too 'lovers rock' and not enough dub for my liking. and hopefully, radio 6 will make provisions for the less mainstream recordings (peels sessions or wire's recent radio 6 appearance for example) to be accessed via the net in the future - and then we'll all be rubbing our hands gleefully together !!! keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:07:59 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] in esse orr insiding? > What do you think of In Esse, Insiding & Orr? I think they're amazing! Three BCGilbert's I haven't heard before all at once! Bloodlines - just heared a gunshot!! :-) Though I would like to have heard it accompanied by Page's ballet I find the music is strong enough to stand on it's own. Constantly shifting structures, subtile rythms and weird funny noices... seems a bit more "difficult" than e.g. This Way or The Shivering Man. Couldn't figure out the figure [is it is one?] on the sleeve though. Anyone? Insiding seems more an industrial drone. Is that a bit of Boiling Boy I hear at 13 minutes? I had to laugh so loudly at In Esse's beginning - looking at girlfriends reaction, that is. [Ex]Static noice! Is this a voice I hear? Great stuff to impress others with! Needs a few more hearings [or should I say harings]. Here some visuals would be welcome imo - it doesn't sound like it manages on it's own [positive reaction because of girlfriend though]. Bits of Orr appear to be a more professional industrial/ambient - is that Kendall/Hampson's input? Quad is Majestic [expecting a Lewis vocal any minute] Oh my god, the first bit of Seven's is just like Gorillaz' Man Research! [the one after Clint] True, or are those previous Albarn-mails hunting me? Source I seems like a bit of good old time Shivering BCG. I have seen Michael Clark's "Do You Me? I Did" on tv halfway 80's or something. Is it true Clark threw away Gilbert's finale bit after criticism? Though not a direct hit in the heart [that's ok, The Shivering Man took a while too] they seem great new [for me] chapters in the world of avantgarde electronic music, but it's no Dome. Bart [in shivers] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 15:56:20 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re: radio 6 Initially the shows on offer will be Brinsley Forde's Lively Up > > >Yourself, Bruce Dickinson's Rock Show and Freak Show, Bob Harris, and > Craig > > >Charles' Funk show. You'll also be able to access specialist music shows > > >from the other BBC networks. Watch this space for more information! > > > > This sort of thing has me looking upwards at the rafters and wondering > > if they'd take a nail and a suitable length of rope. The self > > satisfaction and conservatism of some institutions knows no bounds. > > i don't see what the problem is myself, howard. It's the roll-call of usual suspects doing the presenting that I find so depressing, along with the fact that these particular `specialist' ares are already well covered on Wonderful Radio One, and hold little interest for me. If they float your boat, fine, but I think for a self proclaimed alternative/diverse/leftfield station it sounds all very static and predictable. I'm not familiar with the full schedule so tell me if I do a disservice. Is there an electronica/IDM slot, for example? I agree that being able to download a show is potentially useful - but how long would it take on my creaking 56K modem? I suspect it could be a lot longer that it would take to just tune in and listen to it. Roll on broadband. Howard ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:12:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Aaron Mandel Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Re: Fischerspooner On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 HowardJSpencer@aol.com wrote: > Just bought Miss Kittin and the Hacker which is a much better example of > the same genre. Standout track, Frank Sinatra, has the chorus 'Suck my > dick/kiss my ass' sung a la Flying lizard Sally. Lovely. Yeah, unfortunately all three of the electro discs featuring Miss Kittin that came out in the US recently only have one or two great tracks: "Frank Sinatra" on the Hacker, "Madame Hollywood" on the Felix disc, and "Rippin Kittin" and "1234" on the Golden Boy album. I think Golden Boy may be the only one whose beats I like listening to when Miss K isn't singing. From that This Is Tech-Pop compilation (might be too pop for some, but has all the hit singles you need, including "Emerge") I found out about Crossover, who I also quite like -- if Miss Kittin is Sally/Flying Lizards, the woman from Crossover must secretly eb the Waitresses vocalist. a ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:55:40 EDT From: RLynn9@aol.com Subject: [idealcopy] WORLD CUP...ahhh! a lovely day.. ahh...the quest is complete...France is ousted...France did not score a single goal...i am a happy man....bye bye France, you have showed the world that you were a paper champion...... Ireland is through to the second round! hopefully England will pull it off as well... interesting match ups could be on the horizon.... Robert ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:57:19 +0100 From: "Fergus Kelly" Subject: [idealcopy] Techno Animal Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP Techno Animal - Re-Entry Excellent album! What can I say... especially the tracks with Jon Hassell, and the sprawling collosus that is Cape Canaveral. I haven't heard Brotherhood Of The Bomb ( I'm a bit put off by the fact that there's rappers on it, as I've never liked rap) - is that any good? Fergus _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 21:30:03 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] He Hailed Eno Andrew Westmeyer pondered >>>>There must be a closer match between Eno and Wire. Anyone? B Eno appears on He Said Hail From the Gospel according to St Kevin of Edgeley Graham: I'd always liked Brian's rhythm guitar playing on his records, so I asked him what he wanted to do. He said he didn't want to hear the track and didn't want to play guitar! There's quite a bit more on Eno's involvement, as you might expect, but I can't be bothered to type it all out. Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP Ruins - Hyderomastgroningem (www.tzadik.com) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:55:33 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Barting in a Cottage [bathroom? fuckers? buttons & dodgy characters? you were in the loo now, right? verbally sucking up wasn't enough for ya?] You're probably getting confused with 12XU here... Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:47:26 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Sigmund Freud meets Benny Hill > GAR: Maybe by then we'll have changed into something else. [into a bloody good interviewer I hope?] There are many different approaches to it. But won't bleed for you, toilet boy. > BCG: "Give me the button!" is what I say! > > EGL: As Joseph Beuys said, "The greatest thing in the world is the atom bomb. > This is he greatest piece of work! Give everybody one! I want one in my > bathroom! Do not be frightened of this thing. Be frightened of the man who has > it!" > Who are the fuckers with the buttons? There are some pretty dodgy characters > out there. [bathroom? fuckers? buttons & dodgy characters? you were in the loo now, right? verbally sucking up wasn't enough for ya?] "The central problem for Deleuze and Guattari, their single most significant niggle, the danger to which much of their work points, and the fact of existence against which they most consistently work is a phenomenon I call totalizing theory. A totalizing theory is one, like psychoanalysis, that becomes monolithic. At a certain point a theory, fueled by social pressure, can become totalizing, to the extent that its effects are ubiquitous and destructive. In such instances, the totalizing theory will see the entire world through its own lens, and will then, in turn, construct the world according to that lens. Speaking of Freudian psychoanalysis in Chaosmosis Guattari points out that "the unconscious has become an institution. ... One finds oneself rigged out with an unconscious the moment one dreams, delires, forgets or makes a slip of the tongue" (10). Guattari calls Freudian theories "inventions" in the sense that they were created and not discovered. However, since its invention psychoanalysis has gained institutional status such that now the world is constructed according to the model of psychoanalysis. It has become a totalizing theory that constructs hysterics, neurotics, and psychotics. It is the example, par excellence, of the dangers of totalizing theory." http://www.uta.edu/english/apt/d&g/atotalizing_theory.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 18:52:53 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Where to find Noises? Eric just wanted to get on the outside >>>>I'd like to get away from the mainstream more. My problem is where to look for this stuff. I see listees mentioning artists I've never heard of. Where do you guys find out about these artists? In magazines? Websites? Do you listen to samples first? Or just take a chance? Discuss please. Because I write reviews, I'm fortunate in that I get given promotional copies of some releases in exchange for a few words. Actually this often involves more work than people think. Most of my reviews end up on the Brain, a weekly webzine based in Boston. Most releases get 2-3 60-90s MP3 excerpts which is usually enough to tell if it's worth checking out. www.brainwashed.com/brain The Brainwashed sites probably have enough information on them to keep you going for a long time, but... The Epitonic site is also very useful for finding new music, as they write descriptions of the MP3s they have and you can also listen to excerpts rather than download the entire file www.epitonic.com Another good place for informative less obvious / experimental reviews is Motion Reviews, which also has short sound excerpts. www.motion.state51.co.uk/reviews Perfect Sound Forever covers the Mojo oldies end of things but from an obsessive / obscure music fan slant as opposed to the obvious adman determined content of a mainstream magazine www.furious.com/perfect Here's a fairly regularly updated site covering the psych/rock-noise end of things www.fakejazz.com And this one is quite entertaining www.clicks-and-klangs.com (might've got the URL wrong though) Of course you know about www.posteverything.com? In the UK, the following national radio programs are often worth a listen: John Peel Tues-Thurs 10-12 R1 Jazz on 3 Fri 11.30pm R3 Hear & Now Sat 10.45pm R3 Mixing It Sun 11pm R3 One World Thurs midnight R1 These are probably all webcast, but I don't know the details. At present I'm listening to the following discs, most of which I will write something about fairly soon... Desormais - Climate Variations (intr_version) label website is a bit useless Gert-Jan Prins / Peter Van Bergen / Fennesz - Dawn (www.churchofgrob.com) Philip Jeck - Stoke (www.touch.demon.co.uk) Main - Tau (www.kraak.net) Steinbruchel - zwischen.raum 3" (www.domizil.ch) Ultrasound - Hamesh (Autonomy) www.ultrasoundings.org Unplugboy & Toshimaru Nakamura (www.alectro-ecoustic.co.uk) Spidermonkey - Grey Horizons (Brotherhood) www.spidermonkey.org.uk Cavendish Sanguine - Truculence (www.fflintcentral.co.uk) Laboratory Series 2 (www.planetsounds.co.uk) Toshiya Tsunoda - Pieces of Air (www.luckykitchen.com) A Taste of Merzbow (www.mego.at) Ilios - b.a. (www.antifrost.gr) AS11 - New CD Out Now! (Antifrost) Doc Wor Mirran - The Soundtrack of Death (Moloko+) O+A - Box 30/70 (Tourette) www.netzradio.de/box3070 Joseph Nothing - Dreamland Idle Orchestra (www.planet-mu.com) Trevor Wishart - Journey Into Space (www.stalk.net/paradigm) reissue I also just bought today: Larsen - Rever (www.younggodrecords.com) Dymaxion x 4 +33.3 = 38:33 (www.duophonic.co.uk) Steroid Maximus - Ectopia (www.foetus.org) Consonant - Consonant (www.consonant.cc) + an oldie that I'd had on tape for years Einsturzende Neubauten - Haus der Luege This website might be some help too...? Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 12:49:57 -0700 (PDT) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Where to find Noises? Re: Where to find Noises?>> These should keep me busy for a long time. Just what I was looking for. Thanks. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 21:53:12 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Super Etoile De Dakar >I'm on the hunt now for a short-lived group named "Red Flag" and >an african late 70ies/early80ies group named "super etoile de dakar". > >regards, > >FrankfromBavaria Frank, Super Etiole De Dakar sprang from the loins of Etoile De Dakar a long established Senegalese band that featured Youssou N'Dour as vocalist. i have Etoile De Dakar Volume 3 'Lay Suma Lay' on Stern's African Records, i suggest you search for their website, i have no idea if they have one, but i would think that they would...!!! happy hunting, ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 22:08:34 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] Morgan Fisher but instead the work of none other than experimental musician, >neo glam pop star, guru devotee, and curator of arguably rocks wackiest >andb most original compilation album, Miniatures [Blueprint BP159CD], >Morgan Fisher. ...former member of Mott The Hoople...hence the 'neo-glam pop star' thing...!!!!! ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:15:24 -0500 From: Michael Flaherty Subject: [idealcopy] Re: ... ENTERTAIN US! [Apologies if a similar post has already been sent. As it wasn't on the Digest, I'm assuming it didn't get through ... server problems here.] >From: "Bill Hick" >What have you been listening to of late Michael? Thurston Moore: Super Tuscan (Italian 45) Lionel Marchetti, Jerome Noetinger and Mathienu Werchowski: self-titled Morton Feldman: The Straights of Magellan--Indeterminate Music Makoto Kawabata: Infinite Love King Crimson: Zoom Club, 1972 Peter Gabriel: Remasters of Passion, Birdy, Security (Try to get more commercial than that! Not that I think Mark meant me. ;) ) > >I still have Kaspar Toeplitz on the mental must-hear-sometime list btw... It >was partly down to your recomendation that I got 2 of the excellent Cale TOTE >CDs, although the first is still elusive. I'm really glad to hear that. My understanding is that Cale #1 is out of stock, but not print. It's worth hunting down, but I do like 2 and 3 better. These releases should erase any doubt of how important Cale was to his 2 famous groups of the 60s. As for Toeplitz, his cd (Fissure) is definely worth getting, but only scratches the surface of what I heard live. By the way, if you run into anyone selling the cd he made w/ Karkowski, please let me know. I've been trying to find it for about 9 months or so. Michael Flaherty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 02:02:35 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: [andrew@lexical.org.uk: Re: [idealcopy] Lager Louts' Third Language tucked into Briefcases?] [Apologies to Mark, who'll get two copies of this: I incompetently forgot to edit the To: address. Sending email at 2am may not be the best idea ever. :) ] On Wed, Jun 05, 2002 at 07:14:25PM -0400, MarkBursa@aol.com wrote: > I've always seen Boys & Girls as a discopopped-up I am the Fly.... Never thought of it like that. You have something of a case, but I've always heard it as a disco track: particularly the bassline, which is definitely funk-influenced. > A decent selection, though I'd include End of a Century and To the Endrather > than some of the Great Escape stuff. Good songs, but I *really* like "Entertain Me" and "The Universal". > For my money Blur are at their weakest when Damon slips into third-party mode > and writes little character pieces. It's a reflection of some of his biggest > influences - Beatles, Ray Davies, Syd Barrett. Never been a fan of English > whimsy, unless the music that propels it is pretty startling (eg Arnold > Layne). In Blur's case the band seems to throttle back when Damon lapses into > whimsical mode. I agree: basically, on those tracks they seem to get less input - Damon comes up with a vignette, orchestrates it, and uses the band as session musicians, with Graham Coxon trying to create as much anarchy as possible within this role. It's strange that the more personal, and I think *better* lyrics, are the ones the rest of the band gets more reign over - almost as if there's a conscious effort by Damon to dissociate them from himself. [technical competence] > This is the key difference, along with the fact that Blur were seen from the > start of their career as apart of mainstream pop, whereas Wire haven't. > > Ultimately technical competence in a rock/pop environment is worth zip unless > you're playing a very stylised form of music, which neither Blur nor Wire are > doing. I'd disagree, to a certain extent: technical competence *above a given baseline* is unimportant, but you can haggle about where that baseline is. In terms of guitar, I think Wire (and Oasis, though in a very different way) are beneath it: Wire have great ideas, but (by inclination) seem to not _want_ to complicate their parts (this minimalism is a definite strength: for my money, Robert Gotobed/Grey is a *very* good drummer, though (if anything, I see parallels in his work with motorik styles). Oasis just have a complete paucity of imagination. > Even bands that seem to operate in the same broad environment tend to fall > into polarised camps of "hugely competent" or "can scarcely play". Eg > Magazine, Television in the former and Wire, Joy Davidson in the latter. Who > cares how "technically competent" any of those musicians are? It rather depends on the style of music you're trying to pull off. An interesting point to reflect on, I think, is that of the pure-play punk bands, though, IMO the Clash have stood the test of time best - and the Clash, much as they tried to hide it, really *could* play. Television are an interesting case: apparently they were appalling when they started, and nothing they do is *that* difficult - but they're good enough that they know what they can do, and can innovate within it. Joy Division are the same: they knew their limits, and wrote around them. Very few things, to me, sound worse than someone reaching *too* far and missing badly. There's definitely a dividing line between "shambolic" (which can be good) and "utterly incompetent" (which never is) in my mind. The Pixies were frequently the former: another example of a band who could play their style, but couldn't Play(tm). The thing is, a lot of what Blur do is slightly *too* polished, arguably, maybe slightly antiseptic - because it's too easy and they can do it *too* well, to the extent that some people see this and immediately think "file under revivalist". I don't think Blur did their careers any favours with their Parklife/Great Escape single releases in this regard: they could do the 60's-mod thing so well that people assumed that's *all* they could do - which the albums already at that point refuted, but a lot of people never got that far. > Technically > competent musicians wear Nils Lofgren tour jackets and hang out in guitar > shops playing Ywngyywe Malmnmsteneeen or whatever the fuck his name is riffs. No, arseholes who think that notes-per-second actually means something do. If you ask me, anyway. > >> For my money, Graham Coxon is both one of the most technically gifted > and -particularly- one of the most innovative guitarists working in pop<< > > Jonny Greenwood? ... names Graham Coxon as his favourite guitarist working today, incidentally. Yeah, Jonny's very innovative as a multi-instrumentalist too. As a guitarist myself, I rip off both Graham Coxon and Jonny Greenwood mercilessly, with varying admixtures of Johnny Marr, Ed O'Brien, Peter Buck, and Stuart Braithwaite (Mogwai) too. I'm not desperately avant-garde. > A ref to The Fall's mighty British People in Hot Weather, another (and > altogether more vitriolic) take on Englishmen abroad.... But far less > subversive than Blur's take, as Girls & Boys was adopted as an anthem (and > bought in sufficient quantities to go Top 5) by the very people it lampoons. [ELaH] > Try abebooks.com and search for it.... > Cheers for the heads-up. > >>"Entertain Me" and "He Thought of Cars" spring to mind. Blur, as a band, > tend to release singles which have not *that* much in common with their > albums...<< > > Chemical World has a pretty spanky guitar intro... If I'm trying to show off, it's one of the riffs I play: but Bill Hick seemed to be looking for more angular riffs. One of my favourite Blur riffs is the really quite conventional intro to "This is a Low", which is just Em/F#m/G/A arpeggios... > As I pointed out originally, some of Blur's major influences (eg Mission of > Burma) were not on that list, possibly because it was a list on a website and > included people who the casual surfer might have heard of.... Fair point. > >> I think there are similarities, and differences: but those similarities, > in refusing to play the obvious line, in the palpable tension between > melody and wanting to veer off into left field, are very obvious to me.<< > > And me. You're just starting at a different level. You can get away with more > the further you are from the mainstream. Also true. Blur are more willing to play the game than Wire, but then Wire *are* outliers in the statistics here. > >> Record sleeves? I don't give a damn, I listen to the music. All I ask is > that it keeps the CD unscratched... >> > > Well, as a disciple of Factory I can't agree with you there!! Spiritualized are the current leaders in CD packaging technology :) - and the limited (book) edition of Amnesiac by Radiohead was *really* nifty. > Mark Andrew - -- "The carving and paring of the land; the quarter square, the graph divides, Beneath the rule a country hides..." - Wire, "Map Ref 41 deg N 93 deg W" ('154') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk - ----- End forwarded message ----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 01:24:58 +0200 From: giluz Subject: [idealcopy] OT Hacker Ethic http://www.hackerethic.org/ - This page didn't seem to work in the last few months (maybe it was hacked) but now it's up. It's the homepage of a book called The Hacker Ethic (by Pekka Himanen with Linus Torvalds [of Linux fame] and Manuel Castells) that tries to find an alternative to the protestant work ethic based on the way hackers work. Read on. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:05:07 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Ol' Gig Diaries Giggle Yeah, I saw Faust 4 or 5 times in the 90s and they were always great, working up a storm and different every time. Their greatest hits show was a surprise, playing stuff from Faust Tapes (never thought I'd hear that live, just as I thought I'd never hear Mannequin) while employing leaf blowers and naked painting techniques. But the most memorable gig was at the Garage when they finished off by spreading powder along their metal bar at the front and setting light to it, leading to an unpleasant fog filling the venue within a few minutes. It was quite impossible to see the exits. I recall finally staggering onto the Holloway Road with smoke billowing out of the venue into the night air while people milled around coughing and staggering into traffic. Highly irresponsible no doubt but a great moment. My mate Martin lit a fag as soon as he got out, which I think is one of the most unnecessary acts I've ever seen. another the Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill Hick To: Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 6:17 PM Subject: [idealcopy] Ol' Gig Diaries Giggle > But the greatest live rock bands I saw in the 90s were probably > > BOREDOMS!!! > > EINSTURZENDE NEUBAUTEN!!! > > FAUST!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:27:59 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] it ain't over till Brando sings I went to see Apocalypse Now Redux a couple of weeks ago. Can't say the additions did much for me but seeing it again in a cinema really brought home why I've regarded it as a great film since the day I first saw it (which I can even recall - 31/12/79!). It's more ambitious than any film made subsequently and probably more ambitious than any other film made in the second half of the twentieth century with the exception of '2001'. It's so ambitious it's almost obscene - the scene when the patrol boat first meet up with Kilgore's troops, for example, is just breathtakingly choreographed, choppers coming in from all directions as the boat pulls up to the beach, explosions going off, Coppola himself directing the action on camera. Now they'd digitalise much of it but there's a real thrill in knowing that this was all arranged for our amusement, even as one gasps inwardly at the sheer expense (especially when one knows the background to the making of it). The Valkure scene really got me going as well despite knowing it really well - it's completely visceral cinema. And the narration - surely the most witty and quotable in cinema. There are many things wrong with the film but while watching it I'll forgive them all (until the last 20 minutes at least). It's Coppola's masterpiece despite the Conversation (which *is* magnificent but a chamber piece compared to this). another the Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: Keith Astbury To: Bart van Damme Cc: wire-news Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 12:02 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] it ain't over till Brando sings > > >> The documentary on Dancer in the Dark was much more interesting than > the > > >> film itself, with Bjork running off in the middle of shooting and all. > > >> giluz > > > > > > as one of the few people in the world who didn't rate 'apocalypse now', > i > > > felt the same way about that documentary. the sheer madness of making it > > > made for great viewing, but compared with coppola's previous stuff (the > 1st > > > two godfathers, the conversation, etc) i just couldn't get excited about > a > > > film about that was basically about visiting a fat guy ; ) > > > keith > > > > > > But what a fat guy it was, Keith! > > he's certainly had his moments, though ultimately he won't be leaving the > legacy he should/could have... > > > I thought it was Copolla's masterpiece myself, though naratively speaking > I > > suppose you're right. But taking Joseph Conrad's rather onedimensional > novel > > god. what a dull read that was. imagine 'acopalypse now' without the > helicopters set to music? yep. *that* bad ; ) > > keith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 11 Jun 2002 23:55:31 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Scary Gary Seconded. Pavement gave me a hell of a lot of pleasure in the 90s both live and on record. My abiding memories of Gary are him handing out toast to a deserving audience and a gig at Brixton Academy when Pavement were supporting someone and I was standing around in a packed venue after they'd played when Gary suddenly appeared, just moving among the audience shaking as many hands as he could. Seemed like a nice man. Albeit something of an acid casualty. another the Keith. - ----- Original Message ----- From: Bart van Damme To: wire-news Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Scary Gary > > Pavement so many times I couldn't try to count, but they were more enjoyable > > in their chaotic early days with acid casualty drummer Gary Young giving > > everyone at every gig a carrot or some other daft gift. > > > With or without Scary Gary, Pavement for me is the ultimate band of the > nineties and I'm still sad as hell they quit. Saw them 2 times live. > > Bart > > NP "Kapital Punishment" Save your Kisses For Me ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:12:57 +0100 From: "Keith Knight" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (Off topic) Something rotten... Carl Dreyer is virtually invisible in the UK, Frederik. I've only seen two of his films in nearly 30 years of devoted artfilm attendance - The Passion of Joan of Arc and Gertrud. I think Gertrud, especially, is a masterpiece. I'd dearly love to see more,Ordet and Vampyr especially, but it just isn't available. The 'being 24' rumour was certainly reported in the Guardian as 'fact' last week, although I can't recall now if they said it was law yet or not. It's sad Denmark has come to this - I've been there many times (going again next month) and its always seemed like such a civilised and adult place. another the Keith - ----- Original Message ----- From: frederik jensen To: Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 6:19 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] (Off topic) Something rotten... > hi list... > > im a dane, living in denmark... > > unfortunately i cannot confirm the rumour about "being 24" in order to marry whomever one loves when both parties are not danish citizens. i have heard something like that, unfortunately. actually i thought it was an idea which _was_ meant to become a law, eventually. but i dont think it has happened yet... > > of course it is a quite absurd policy. i think generally that the problem is that we (in denmark) in fact _do_ want to reduce the amount of "newdanes", without being overly explicit unfair... > > and what policy should one adopt without being unfair, since the very outset is to make a distinction between "extra" people we would like to in the country, and those we dont? > > *** > so, that being the issue, how do your countries deal with this question? all acceptance, or rationalizing your way to a distinction? > > remember: of course it is a quite absurd policy... > > *** > "babettes feast" was by the dane gabriel axel, a francophile. the best films are those that get inside the outer spectacle == action(!), which is why "babettes feast" works, i guess. > > carl th. dreyer was also a danish filmmaker. the best. in all the world. well, being a dane, with the limited imagination the rest of the world seems to allow the danish people to have, perhaps i have to say that dreyer was "_the best filmmaker in the universe_"!! > > *** > as for trier, and his films the "element of crime" (his first full length film) compared to "the idiots" (his dogma film), certainly are very different. but then, would you expect someone growing older making the same films as they were when they were in their twenties? > > apart from wire, of course, who seems determined to live more than one lifecycle during their existence? :) > > damn! not lurking anymore, frederik jensen. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #192 *******************************