From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #188 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Monday, June 10 2002 Volume 05 : Number 188 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Enough Hat Speak to make a Wise Man Hum! ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] Used to have a Think about Link ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] Ultimate in Pure Music Snobbism ["Bill Hick" ] [idealcopy] A Long Lost Mortgaged Life Appears ["Bill Hick" ] RE: [idealcopy] Music snobbery ["Eric Klaver" ] [idealcopy] Contemporary classical - CD details [Nik Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Enough Hat Speak to make a Wise Man Hum! - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 6:45 PM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Enough Hat Speak to make a Wise Man Hum! > > << Andrew asked the improbababble > >>>Yeah. Name a band who consistently have cleverer lyrics than Wire, then. > :) >> > > Well, the various works of Mr Devoto come pretty close. Lewis v Devoto. > Discuss. > > Mark > I'd also give Mark E Smith, Nick Cave & Yako of Melt Banana some credit here... And also Mr Gilbert & Mr Newman (despite his assertions that lyrical meanings don't interest him much). hey we can listen to them all!!! NP Subway Sect - Ambition ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:18:32 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] What's it like in Ohio? Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 12:35:49 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Nice Streets are Rhizomes >Unlike Icarus, Bill is firmly rooted: Just like Icarus Bill might not exist...? >The rhizome offers some hope of bringing about a kind of "liberation" from structures of power and dominance, the strata that shut down our most essential relationship to the world, desiring-production. /////////////////////// >>>Good email and some excellent thoughts. Not my thoughts though, I just chopped them out of the Texan professor's netbrain. It seemed interesting. >>>My first reaction is the danger of pitting to (opposing) metaphors together to create a third. Did you you mean 'putting two metaphors together'? >>>I am supposing this is what D+G are on about. This, in my mind doesn't reveal "difference", it only makes it more obtuse. I think they are on about more than that. It could make it more obtuse, but then again maybe not. >>>I haven't got the book handy, but Nietzsche does a nice job of warning us about substituting the thing (i.e. the world, nature, and God) for the metaphor. The tendency is that the metaphor can kill the thing that it represents ("God is dead") "the dead metaphor" in semiotic terms. The problem with Nietzsche is that his moustache was just too big. Was god ever more than a metaphor? >>>As for the other suggestions in this context. >>>Could we maybe oppose Tim's boring mortgaged life with your own anarchic (my assumption) interesting life Tim's life has been mortgaged too? He'd better watch out when Mayor T Wilson takes over the city hall and sacks the lot of 'em and replaces 'em with Madchester Theme Park Ryderclone robots in 2007! Atrocity Exhibition! Why assume Tim's life is boring? It was Tim who made the assumption that I thought his life was boring because he works 9-5 & has a mortgage. I only assumed it must be boring if the best laugh he had all week was misunderstanding some off topic blathering on Ideal Copy... Why assume my life is 'anarchic' just because I try to avoid control? Control is to some degree unavoidable... The fact that my life seems to be getting discussed as much as Wire now must imply that it seems to some degree 'interesting' to people here, in all it's 'camp,' 'spunky,' 'drunken' pointlessness. I thought I'd made it fairly clear that I wasn't discussing Anarchism but Control which is different, even though Tim seems unable to see that judging by the way he's been fantasising about getting flayed by Big Brother and the Police State whilst on industrial holiday. >>>to produce a third condition of life and then throw the others away. Why throw the others away? It's like if you call Fugazi, 'generic garage punk' -- you'd be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. >>>It would be splendid if the third condition were my own life as it is but it's not bloody likely. Come again? >>>Eric in Toronto How do we know you're really in Toronto??? Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP Autechre - Confield ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:17:53 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Used to have a Think about Link > > people were thinking along the lines of 'hey, make the sound *dirtier*, not > > cleaner'. apparently ritchie blackmore of all people was a prominent figure > > in all this. thank you ritchie. your 'smoke on the water' riff / crime > > against music is now forgiven ; ) > > I think Hendrix and Clapton, to name just two obvious examples, did it much > before him. > > giluz > > Doesn't Link Wray get any credit? (It was the time of the giant moths) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:17:36 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Ol' Gig Diaries Giggle Ian's immersion >>>at the height of 'Cool Britannia', i was busy being immersed in the 'New Americana', eg, Palace/Will Oldham, Smog, Tortoise, the continued brilliance of Guided By Voices, Nirvana, *most* Albini related product (as artist or engineer), Pavement (sorry Paul...), Sebadoh, Jon Spencer Blues Explosion, all this stuff completely blew the whole Oasis v Blur thing into little tiny atoms as far as i was concerned...and to prove my point... Having seen nearly all the American bands you mentioned above play gigs around this time I'd have to agree with your hot rockin' moves... We must've been at some of the same gigs. I saw Fugazi at Liverpool Planet X on their first UK tour & later at the Bluecoat, then the Poly... maybe seen them 20 times at the last count? I did pretty much the whole UK tour prior to In On The Killtaker... never been back to Whitstable since! Sebadoh & Smog at the Boardwalk. Lost interest in them soon after Eric Gaffney departed, but their early gigs were fun & when Lou barlow was in Dinosaur Jr they were LOUD. Smog was much more convincing with a three piece band, solo he seems a bit lost in a larger venue. At ATP Smog seemed to suck all the air from the room, my legs buckled & my teeth began to rot. In some respects Smog was the complete opposite to Wire. Blues Explosion every time they've played Manchester until they started sounding like Shakin' Stevens, but first saw them in Leeds. Shellac in Leeds, Sheffield, London, Phoenix Fest. They are now better than they ever were, and I've seen them 8 times. After Steve Albini, I find it hard to hear much innovative in Britpappy guitarists, but to hear that I'd have to fight through the painful singers they saddle themselves with. Tortoise 3 times in Manchester. Now there's a band who really opened doors... Pavement so many times I couldn't try to count, but they were more enjoyable in their chaotic early days with acid casualty drummer Gary Young giving everyone at every gig a carrot or some other daft gift. But the greatest live rock bands I saw in the 90s were probably BOREDOMS!!! EINSTURZENDE NEUBAUTEN!!! FAUST!!!!!! + Come, Shellac, the Jesus Lizard, Brainiac, Sonic Youth & Fugazi too. And who could forget gigs by... Rodan Seam Band of Susans Scrawl Cop Shoot Cop Butthole Surfers Rollins Band Nation of Ulysses Etc. etc. Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:55:17 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Ultimate in Pure Music Snobbism I have these records su pollard - starting together 7" the firm - star trekkin' 7" motorhead - bomber 7" madness - baggy trousers 7" kim wilde - kids in america 7" abba - arrival Lp mike oldfield - ommadawn LP now that's what I call music (for the mike odfield song... no really I wanted to sample creak at start of Love Cats but the mike odfield one has a good tune) Klaus Wunderlich & his magic organ Lp a Sibelius LP Debussy / Webern Lp Mahler symphony 5 Lp But quite frankly why would anyone give a flying dog fuck? much as I love these records so muchand much more, I would still swap any of them for a Dome 3 vinyl LP, so if anyone's up for it let me know. >and if we're talking about singles on vinyl - 'gto' by sinitta (naff >admittedly, BUT gloriously naff!), 'go west' the village people, etc etc, but what the hell i LIKE them!!! > > > I have the Abba singles collection, most of the > > Bob Dylan up to Desire, One man's Dylan is another man's Motorhead. > > > Kate Bush's greatest hits, 'Sat in your lap' was great! >U2, Chemical Brothers, > > Byrds, Fat Boy Slim, > > > and Simon and Garfunkel records. NP Sonic Youth - 1000 Leaves (Lee & Thurston songs only, the Kim ones are all too damn experimental for me!) Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine Its like Gary Numan asked "Are friends electric?" Then he asked "we are so fragile?" And who could forget to "remember, I was vapor" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:57:01 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Radio the Fifteenth New Emperor Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 18:55:32 +0100 From: Howard Spencer Subject: [idealcopy] Re:radio shite OT >live review of fisherspoon[er] describes their version of 'the 15th' as >gorgeous... >>>>I bought their CD and it's the best thing on it. Their live show got a trashing in last weekend's papers - emperor's new clothes stuff. From the good book of St Gilbert and the 3 Decibels Kevin imparts this holy scripture unto us, Colin: 'The 15th' is devoid of any meaning. It was the 15th one in a set of songs that we had at the time... 'Once is Enough' is the same as 'The 15th.' I used to write a lot of songs about internal states. It was something about my own nature, a contrariness. Presenting one thing and then immediately afterwards presenting the exact opposite. It's a chain of thought but you get to the point where you're saying nothing. How long would it take Fischerspooner to reach that point? Unrelated? Here's Graham explaining the 'Whilst Climbing Thieves Vie for Attention' album title: Graham: The album title was something I wrote down at the time, to music that was being produced at the time. The whole atmosphere of what had been. A lot of it had turned ugly. There seemed to be a lot of people like Spandau Ballet, just that general thing, seemed to be like the Emperor's New Clothes. How marvellous it was supposed to be. It all seemed so contrived, so derivative and secondhand. Roxy Music had already done it. Would you say that Fischerspooner are derivative and secondhand? I'm just curious as all I've heard is their Wire cover and it seemed very 80s to me. >Isn't it about time that we got a national radio station that plays listenable >music intelligently programmed by people who know what they're doing instead >of the usual procession of witless media whore bozos? More like this instead >of endless doses of sugar coated tooth rot corporate moneymuzak shite & chummy >nothing moronchat? >>>>Right on the nail. I'd advocate a policy of phoning, emailing and writing to the BBC to moan about the tepidity of their musical output - after all, we (UK residents) pay for it via govt subsidy and license fee. I'm contacting Ed baxter to see if there's a campaign to persuade the radio licencers to let Resonance FM go national... >>>>Maybe I am some sort of Beatrice and Sidney Webb socialist throwback, but I get pretty upset when I see producers and presenters who are paid out of the public purse showing themselves to be, shall we say, highly susceptible to commercial pressures and temptations in their programming. Wouldn't you just love a satin jacket emblazoned with 'Blur'? >>>Worse than that, some of the current DJ crop seem not interested in music at all - just like Travis and Edmonds and all the other (rightly) reviled daytime gits of the 70s/80s. Hasn't that always been the way? Funny how some of the more 'alternative' DJs will play anything they're told if the money talks (Mary Anne Hobbs, Mark & Lard). >>>>So next time you hear an advertisment for EMI dressed up as a Radio one `feature', ring up and complain. Eventually, it will make a difference. I'm afraid I only listen much to John Peel & Radio 3 so I don't get to hear much of this crap. It was funny when they tried to force Peel to play jingles and he continually cocked them up so badly they had to let him stop. Some of the stupid jingles were longer than some of the records he plays. It did actually used to wind me up as I didn't want to be reminded of how moronic the breakfast show is. Peel's laconic amateurism and dry humour has always seemed a breath of fresh air, even if his programs can get a bit predictable at times. >>>>Just glanced at the just-arrived digest and see we are now on to nuclear war which makes all this seem rather trivial. Ringing up to complain never stopped a war, as far as I know. Diplomacy... They push the buttons, we listen to the explosions. Hello? Hello? Is there anybody there? NP ZGA live at the Zodiac / Hear & Now Radio 3 *click* Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:50:39 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Hostile New Bible Date: Fri, 07 Jun 2002 01:46:02 +0100 From: Tim Subject: [idealcopy] Blur and the Bill Hick Formula >>>Feeling uncool, too mainstream, too normal? Like a Tim? He can dish it out but he can't take it. >>>Tired of being crushed by the wheels of industry, and flayed alive by Big Brother and the police state? No problem for indestructible kids in the vicarage. >>>Don't worry folks. You can all be Bill Hick. One ain't enough? *Cut to Clonezone / Ryderbots in Madchester theme park shell suit swarms >>>Follow these simple steps and you too can ejaculate your pearls of spunky wisdom all over Idealcopists everywhere, just like the bard of Whalley Range. Can't people think for themselves anymore? You seem to have some odd sexual fantasies. To be accurate though, I technically live in Fallowfield for all purposes but post code, but it seems to me and just about everyone else in the area that the place they put the border is pretty silly. Bards sing, I write. >>>And all without the expensive drugs. "It's called speed I wrote a song about it" MES "That old white train costs a lot to ride" Karl Burns Actually I don't do drugs, except for alcohol. If I did I'd be able to get them cheap, thank you very much! >>>So lets imagine I quite innocently say: No one is innocent (see below). >>>While I don't really like Blur and find Damon Allbran and his champagne swigging pals somewhat punchable, I've never met his champagne swilling pals, what did they do to you? Not that heinous crime of talking loud in a bar? >>>I do think they wrote some splendid pop songs and 'This is a Low' is a great melancholic pop song, and that track they had in Trainspotting worked brilliantly in the soundtrack...and their namechecking of Wire will have meant that lots of copies of Pink Flag, 154 and Chairs Missing were sold in the mid 90s. What a shame EMI didn't pay Wire for those records...? Or so it has been rumoured. >>>1. First have a little personal dig at the writer of the message e.g: >>>"Vicars Son praised Blur....." >>>Something like that. Already did that joke better when it actually related to something, but what is the problem with being a vicar's son anyway? "Past bushes the fairies are flying" MES Funny how it's alright for you to say 'J*n Wh*tn*y is a c*nt' though... ! More than a little personal dig... He can dish it out but he can't take it. >>>2. Then quote a Fall Lyric, appropos of nothing: "What's the lay of the land?" MES You can't spot a thread, don't mean it ain't there! >>>"Undulating plyon trestle, spells arid belt for the Fun Boy Three-ah....apply farmyard to the bespectacled acupunturist-ah...." That's actually more like an NME hack's parody of a Fall lyric. It's better than the Blur lyrics that have been quoted recently though, maybe you should take up 'bardic balladry' (but only in a style acceptable to the NME). Did you mean 'apply farmyard' as an orchard image, or as an order? "Can you enter the Ten Houses of Eve?" MES >>>3. Then quote verbatim from the Bible (i.e 'Everybody Loves a History') Obviously, The following isn't actually in Kevin's book: >>>EGL "I've never liked Vicars, or their sons" >>>BG "Blur are crap as well" >>>EGL "I wish Graeme Rowland would come and interview us again.." >>>BG "And basically we make music for ourselves, and if someone else likes it thats a bonus" Just to avoid confusion spread by vicarsson: when Kevin interviewed Wire, Graham Lewis was unaware of my existance, I don't think he mentioned vicars or their sons and if he did, Kevin skillfully edited it out, and Kevin obviously had lots of much more interesting things to ask Bruce about than Blur. "All the bands who hit it big make the Kane Gang look like an Einstein chip" MES In recent years I have found 'Everybody Loves a History' to be more interesting and useful than 'The Bible' but of course am probably in a bit of a 'cool' minority there. Quite liked the bible when I was a kid though, all that war and death and butchery and armageddon and child sacrifice and flooding and pestilence and frog plagues and locust swarms and pillars of salt and anarchists getting nailed to trees... seemed a bit of an adventure. "Slowly, painfully, he became disillusioned" MES >>>4. And whats on the Binatone Midi system? Or even the 2nd hand 1970s Pioneer 120W amplifier. Midi systems are shite! "Antidotes for those who wrote" MES Raw nerves and blithering spit! Jealousy and a desire for revenge? "Paranoid man in cheap shit room puts head down when girls pass in the street" MES "NP: Mechanoid Trill - 'Customise the Undead'" What's that? "They demand to know, with a touching naive face" MES Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 18:02:18 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] A Long Lost Mortgaged Life Appears >>>Ah yes, and with a deft brush of the keyboard Graeme renders himself the fifth member of Wire, Ah yes, and with a quick bash at the keyboard, Jerry renders himself a pompous ass. I thought Colin's Mac was the 5th member these days? >>>how conveniently Rhizomatic. No interviewer's deference to the interviewee then... Some of us being more unequal than others? GAR: Maybe by then we'll have changed into something else. BCG: "Give me the button!" is what I say! EGL: As Joseph Beuys said, "The greatest thing in the world is the atom bomb. This is he greatest piece of work! Give everybody one! I want one in my bathroom! Do not be frightened of this thing. Be frightened of the man who has it!" Who are the fuckers with the buttons? There are some pretty dodgy characters out there. GAR: Crazy bastards who have to spend their whole life pursuing that goal. EGL: Power. GAR: To spend their lives chasing power they must be insane. EGL: It tends to go towards that. And that's exactly what Joseph Beuys was saying: change yourself. >>>Listen to Beuys, he obviously knew what he was talking about, change yourself. It's an idea, not an order. Change is inevitable. And if you actually read the interview extract in the context of my original post, it could be read equally as a contradiction of the point I was making, and could actually be used to support what Bart was saying... it did however seem relevant to the idea of armageddon reflected in art. >>>Could GAR really be the same earnest young man who implored me to purchase a copy of Cracked Machine at the RFH those years ago? Could he be this? Could he be that? It's a lot more interesting to discuss Wire than me. >>>I must say "campness" was observed, apropos of nothing. Why mention it then, bitch? >>>Meanwhile Rhizomatic theory is propounded by means of a hierarchical structure (the internet) Hierarchies can be used and subverted. Why throw the baby out with the bathwater? I think Deleuze said something along those lines, not that we should take orders from him or Beuys, but if someone has some interesting ideas then why not discuss them? Can you explain in what ways the internet is a hierarchical structure, and how this necessarily prevents it from being used in a rhizomatic manner? "As it turns out, what we seek (and need) according to D & G is a maximum amount of deterritorialized flow and a minimum of strata. We need just enough strata to maintain differentiation and prevent the plane of consistency from becoming a plane of annihilation. In this sense D & G's method resembles that of Kenneth Burke who in Counterstatement advocates "establishing equilibrium by leaning." D & G lean toward the plane of consistency and the body without organs because they see a world where the strata are too powerful, where repression is rampant, and where vital energies are trapped by totalizing theories. They walk a fine line between the strata and the body without organs, leaning toward the latter, but knowing that the former cannot be abandoned completely." >>>along with cleverly seeded trees of critical validity (Blur=Shite and if you disagree you're wrong). I wouldn't call that clever, funny is a better description. Not 'wrong' more like conned. >>>A Rhizome in the context of the internet is a computer without a modem. Doesn't it depend on what it is used for? Why can there be only one definition of a rhizome in this context? >>>Change yourself, some of the rest of us are too busy making a difference to our married mortgaged lives. I didn't realise it was possible to mortgage one's life! Should've known they wouldn't stop at houses! Does this mean if you lose your job the bank can legally have you hung? Do they let you choose your mode of execution in the paperwork? The police state's getting out of hand! Maybe you and Tim could get together for a sniffy bitch in? Apropos o'propos. Perhaps I should make it clear that I sent these interview excerpts over in a bid to raise discussion more related to Wire than has been happening of late... don't stop now! It seemed to work, Bart's Fat Beuys was a hoot!! Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:58:12 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Zen and the Art of Different Bees Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 11:20:07 +0100 From: "Jerry" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Lager Louts' Third Language tucked into Briefcases? > Bruce spoke to the Onion > "We've never really satisfied any audience; we've always satisfied ourselves. > I don't think we've ever considered the audience at all, so that crossover > situation has something to do with the internal creativity of the group and > nothing to do with the audiences. It's not something we've ever thought > about." >>>Whilst undoubtedly being true this quote smacks disturbingly of that hoary old chestnut, and last refuge of the band with nothing to say, "We make music for ourselves and if anyone else likes it it's a bonus".<<< Colin on 'Once is Enough': It's a chain of thought, but you get to the point where you're saying nothing. >>>Surely Bruce can do better than that, or just shut up and leave the speaking to Graham and Colin, something Robert has never had trouble with.<<< In The Gospel of St. Kevin, Bruce gets most of the punchlines and is pretty good at summing things up in a succinct and amusing manner... Here's Bruce on Punk 77: "Take it out of the hands of the beer-gut rockers. Put it back where it should be; with experimentation." Here's Bruce on Wire just after George Gill departed: "Because it was stripped down it suddenly had this abstract element that I'd always wanted." Bruce on the DIY positivity of punk! "Punk was a confirmation for us of making music in a very simplified form, because of our technical inabilities." Bruce on 'Blessed State' "It's about self-disgust and lying." Comparing the four letter / E endings... "Wire was a bit of an intellectual thing really; far more than Dome. It was a total reaction against the Wire experience in terms of recording." Bruce on 78 stage illumination: "The purpose of the lights is to light the songs rather than light us." Bruce on Graham's geese "For 'Eels Sang Lino' Graham had various examples of plastic ducks and he'd bought this illuminated goose. Full size, with a light bulb in it. Called it Jimmy. We were looking for props, and that seemed a good one." Shut up Bruce! It's so bloody obvious!!! "Viewpoints are valid for a certain time. The truth doesn't exist. Everything is a metaphor." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:53:18 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Here We Are Now ENTERTAIN US! Michael registered surprise << > It continues to be true that for most here Wire is about as far from the mainstream as they get. This still, after several years here, surprises me somewhat. >> For me its not so surprising as the fact that some people want to talk about all the mainstream stuff so much, even though it's been done to death over & over. As Mark pointed out the innovations don't usually come from that direction, so it seems much more fun find out where they are coming from. What is that Fennesz fella up to these days, you might wonder? What have you been listening to of late Michael? I still have Kaspar Toeplitz on the mental must-hear-sometime list btw... It was partly down to your recomendation that I got 2 of the excellent Cale TOTE CDs, although the first is still elusive. Mark was also bemused >>>Just as surprising as the number of Wire fans here who turn their noses up at anything vaguely commercial or successful in the mainstream. More surprising perhaps are the assumptions made about listening habits on the snippets divulged to IC... Considering that I have all the Nirvana albums and the first 4 Blondie albums, lots of Neil Young records & tapes & most Beatles albums, I don't suppose you could've meant me... Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP Turntable Solos (Amoebic) MES: "All the bands that hit it big make the Kane Gang look like an Einstein chip" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 17:58:57 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Document Yr ICA Tickets >Looking at the details of the ica gig @posteverything >it gives ticket prices as #10, #9 & #8 >now the ica space is just a room with a stage at one end I hope they have a PA too!!! >so I would expect 'a one size fits all' ticket price >I don't understand... #10 regular tickets for the 'normal' the 'uncool' #9 Those who wear newspaper head dresses or dome masks #8 Those who bring full sized illuminated geese or other examples of plastic aquatic avians. #50 For Brian Wilson fans who don't mind being shafted over by a veritable music god. Drinks will be auctioned to the highest spitters Graham will waltz across the water Colin will swim on the land Bruce will ensure all the honey turns to alcohol Robert will 'Play the Drum!' Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP Steve Albini & Zeni Geva - All Right You Little Bastards! (Nux) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 10:20:20 -0400 From: "Eric Klaver" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] Music snobbery n.p. dome1 ///////////////////// self flagellation, shurely! Eric in Toronto ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 16:20:37 +0100 From: Nik Subject: [idealcopy] Contemporary classical - CD details In message , giluz writes >on 08/06/02 17:33, Fergus Kelly at fkelly88@hotmail.com wrote: > >> Have you seen the Wim Wenders film "Wings Of Desire" (1987)? Some beautiful >> music for strings by Jurgen Knieper. You don't have a copy of that >> soundtrack on CD by any chance? > >I have that one on vinyl actually (though I hate the film), and I did see a >CD release of it one time (though I didn't buy it) The CD was published by the French label Milan (Milan CD 316) in 1988. It says on the back that Rough Trade are the distributors for GB. The title is in French (BANDE ORIGINALE DU FILM DE WIM WENDERS - LES AILES DU DESIR - COMPOSEE PAR JUERGEN KNIEPER). Nik ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 09:17:31 +0200 From: "frederik jensen" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene giluz: > The Kingdom I was great fun, I thought, and maybe the last Trier output I really liked. > Kingdom II was less so. Though hillarious at times, it was a bit too much over the top ... Kingdom III? unfortunately, i only saw "kingdom i + ii" on danish television. however, when asked what is was about i cant remember anything! i wish i could... as for the iii, no, it has not been made yet. one of the reasons, i think, was because the swedish doctor, who concluded each episode of the television version, with condemning all danes: "to hell with all danes!", died... as he was at the center of the "plot", one of the threads being able to work effectively as opposed to the sporadically efficiency of the whole of the "hospital machinery", where things are most certainly not in perfect working order!, the series was put on hold. trier, however, promised, that he could work around missing one of the central characters, so, we'll have to wait and see? i have not seen the movie versions of this series, but as a weekly series it worked really well. i seem to remember that the street were empty, _everybody_ (well, most people i know) watched this series, and consequently the hospital were the series were shot has gotten the nickname "the kingdom", a place where the rational lives in a secret pact with all sorts of irrationality. though this is stretching it a bit, i would also argue that a lot of the humour found in the series was, that well known danish actors were cast in different roles than the ones we are expecting them to fill out. of course, this perspective is restricted to danish viewers only, but nevertheless, it also contributes to the perception of the film... so, all in all, i think that a lot of ideas found in the making of "kingdom i + ii" were precursors for a lot of the dogma rules, i would argue... the kingdom is everywhere, frederik ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 12:31:06 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] audience to mr. Sheen: Don't kill the whale! > Hehehe - I feel the same way myself. Though I do think Apocalypse is a great > film it's not the masterpiece everyone says it is. I just watched the > director's cut a few weeks ago and except for one short scene all of the > added material (more than an hour) was not well written, not well played, > not well directed and just expendable in any way you can think of. I do > feel, however, that the film is a quite good interpretation of Conrad's book > and that Robert Duvall is a genius. But the Conversation was indeed so much > better - the sound version to Antonioni's Blow-Up. > giluz Though I loved the Conversation enormously [one of Hackman's greatest performances] I don't think of it as a film that has Copolla written all over it [like the Godfathers, Apocalypse Now, Rumble Fish/Outsiders do have] Bart This about covers the AN [& director's cut] pretty well: Copolla himself on the subject: "My film is in a different world. I tried to make it more of an experience than a movie. At the beginning, there's a story. Along the river, the story becomes less important and the experience more important. Apocalypse Now' is already a classic, so I am not too anxious about what they will say (about the new version). But I do hope they will agree with me, that it's a better film in its complete form." What unites Willard and Kurtz is their hatred of lies. The Vietnam War is all about lies -- about false body counts, the failure to report war crimes, the destruction of a village to "save it," while in Washington, Johnson is telling lies about victory or Nixon is lying about the progress of the Vietnamization of the war. Coppola says he hopes the new edition will make this theme clearer. "I feel this definitive version presents its theme in a broader, more diverse way," he said. "It is less trying to be a genre war film, and more tries to express its theme in many ways. It is an anti-lie film, it tries to deal with the notion of claims of morality in a non-moral situation such as war. "One of the key lines in John Milius' original script, which was inspiring, was: 'We teach our boys to drop fire on people, but won't let them write the word "fuck" on their airplanes.' When a nation lies about what's really going on -- tries to take a moral high ground while it is killing and maiming people -- it perpetuates war. That is why I always felt this was a film about morality." The greatness of Coppola's movie lies in its clear-headed vision of the moral dilemma of warfare. Coppola shows us the horrors of war and yet the sensuousness of those horrors. He depicts evil and yet the curiously compelling nature of evil. War in Coppola's view is man's greatest melodrama, a catharsis of all his emotions, prejudices and fears. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 11:27:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: Re: [idealcopy] it ain't over till Brando sings Actually, I thought Apocalypse Now was OK until I saw "Heart of Darkness". It documents the complete insanity surrounding the filming of A.N. very well. It gave me a new appreciation for alot of the more subtle imagery in there. Not to mention how completely over the top everything was! Plus the notion of Copolla filming "around" Martin Sheen's heart attack is warped! > Personally I prefer the smell of coffee in the > morning though. Of course napalm with some cream and sugar would be a hell of a pick me up!!! ===== Rick Hindman, 3R Productions PO Box 7770 Santa Cruz, CA 95062 t: (831) 425-7335 f: (831) 425-7356 http://3rproductions.com Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 14:29:02 -0700 (PDT) From: eric719@webtv.net (Eric Strang) Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Here We Are Now ENTERTAIN US! << > It continues to be true that for most here Wire is about as far from the mainstream as they get. This still, after several years here, surprises me somewhat. >> I'd like to get away from the mainstream more. My problem is where to look for this stuff. I see listees mentioning artists I've never heard of. Where do you guys find out about these artists? In magazines? Websites? Do you listen to samples first? Or just take a chance? Discuss please. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Jun 2002 23:37:09 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Used to have a Think about Link On Sun, Jun 09, 2002 at 06:17:53PM +0100, Bill Hick wrote: [Distorted guitar] > Doesn't Link Wray get any credit? > > (It was the time of the giant moths) The stock answer is "Rocket 88" by Jackie Brenston with Ike Turner's band, first released on Chess Records. Both of these records got distortion from damaged speaker cones rather than overdriven valves, though. Andrew - -- "Eternal life is now on my trail, Got my red glitter coffin, man, just need one last nail..." - Jeff Buckley, "Eternal Life" ('Grace') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:02:27 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] it ain't over till Brando sings > >> The documentary on Dancer in the Dark was much more interesting than the > >> film itself, with Bjork running off in the middle of shooting and all. > >> giluz > > > > as one of the few people in the world who didn't rate 'apocalypse now', i > > felt the same way about that documentary. the sheer madness of making it > > made for great viewing, but compared with coppola's previous stuff (the 1st > > two godfathers, the conversation, etc) i just couldn't get excited about a > > film about that was basically about visiting a fat guy ; ) > > keith > > > But what a fat guy it was, Keith! he's certainly had his moments, though ultimately he won't be leaving the legacy he should/could have... > I thought it was Copolla's masterpiece myself, though naratively speaking I > suppose you're right. But taking Joseph Conrad's rather onedimensional novel god. what a dull read that was. imagine 'acopalypse now' without the helicopters set to music? yep. *that* bad ; ) keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:05:10 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene > But the Conversation was indeed so much > better - the sound version to Antonioni's Blow-Up. > giluz that's interesting. never thought of it like that before, but you're right. keith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:10:55 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] The Nightingales excuse me if someone has posted this already.... the link below was recommended awhile back for some live wire. just = checked site out now and the clips have changed - there's now foxx-era = ultravox, virgin prunes, killing joke and the nightingales. keith http://thiefoffire.homestead.com/index.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of The Bunker.url] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:10:55 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: [idealcopy] The Nightingales excuse me if someone has posted this already.... the link below was recommended awhile back for some live wire. just = checked site out now and the clips have changed - there's now foxx-era = ultravox, virgin prunes, killing joke and the nightingales. keith http://thiefoffire.homestead.com/index.html [demime 0.97c removed an attachment of type application/octet-stream which had a name of The Bunker.url] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 00:14:19 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Contemporary classical In a message dated 6/8/02 11:38:20 AM, fkelly88@hotmail.com writes: >Webern's stuff dates from the first half of the 20th >century (he died in 1945 - caught by a sniper's bullet), and is the most > >beautifully understated yet rich music. Some of the pieces are only a few > >minutes long. i like webern too. was turned on to berg and webern in a college 20th century music class. one of the best classes i took, and not even a visual arts class (i attended school of visual arts). if i remember correctly, and this means digging back 20 years into my brain...webern's entire output adds up to something like 90 minutes. some short pieces there indeed. - -paul (waiting to read & burn) c.d. ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #188 *******************************