From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #187 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Sunday, June 9 2002 Volume 05 : Number 187 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery///ANTI SNOB vs....... ["DAVID HEALE" ] Re: [idealcopy] Fat Beuys Buzzing [Andrew Walkingshaw ] Fwd: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery///ANTI SNOB vs.......and the beat goes on [Ari Britt ] [idealcopy] Contemporary classical ["Fergus Kelly" ] [idealcopy] Barbed Liars Disobey Sonic Wibbling ["Bill Hick" ] Re: [idealcopy] GAR's & Beuys [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] GAR's & Beuys [Bart van Damme ] Re: [idealcopy] Contemporary classical [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery [Ari Britt ] Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] Barbed Liars Disobey Sonic Wibbling ["Keith Astbury" ] Re: [idealcopy] Barbed Liars Disobey Sonic Wibbling [MarkBursa@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene [giluz ] Re: [idealcopy] it ain't over till Brando sings [Bart van Damme p.s. will you still be my friends ; ) > > n.p. dome1 > Don't try & creep round us by playing that strange experimental stuff Keith. Chris NP Brian Eno -The Shutov Assembly ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 11:32:42 +0100 From: "DAVID HEALE" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery///ANTI SNOB vs....... OH DEAR do I sense looming .. the snob -debate........ what is "anti snob"? when is anti snob -"inverted snob" ho ho cheers David - ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bart van Damme" To: "Keith Astbury" Cc: "wire-news" Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 9:15 AM Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery > > i couldn't. i'm coming on all shy. i've admitted 'standing on the shoulder > > of giants'. what more does a boy have to do??? > > > > oh alright then. 'up' by right said fred, though i couldn't tell you what > > it's like. i just fancied having the 1st 3 singles 'i'm too sexy', 'don't > > talk...' and 'deeply dippy'... > > > > and if we're talking about singles on vinyl - 'gto' by sinitta (naff > > admittedly, BUT gloriously naff!), 'go west' the village people, etc etc, > > but what the hell i LIKE them!!! > > > > keith (hanging my head in shame even as we speak) > > > > p.s. will you still be my friends ; ) > > > > n.p. dome1 > > > > Anytime Keith, > > You are THE anti-snob! ;-) > > Bart > > n.p. Charlie don't Surf - Sandinista/Clash ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 13:02:59 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fat Beuys Buzzing > When I was studying Art History my tutor tried to get me to write my > dissertation on Beuys. But I misheard him and spent a couple of weeks > trying to find information about Joseph Boyce! Who's he? Google gave me not much more than some NASA-guy. > Hey, it was a long time ago! I was young! I was more interested in getting > trashed. And did you manage to achieve that? ;-) > Anyway I ended up writing a rambling, confused text about pop musics > flirtations with the art world, going for the painfully obvious > Beatles/Blake/Hamilton/Pop Art and the Mclaren/Situationism/Pistols thing > and somehow linking all this to Peter Saville, Mark Farrow and Neville > Brody as being commerical designers making fantastic works of art as record > sleeves....Must dig it out and read it sometime. Sounds interesting enough. Maybe you can show us an excerpt... Brody was [dunno what he's up to nowadays] so great. He was one of the reasons for me wanting to become a graphic designer. Of course you all know he did Wire's brilliant Manscape sleeve. Jon Wozencroft on that subject: "Wire, Manscape, Mute Records 1989-90. Commissioned by the group (whom I had known for some time in relation to Touch) to create a special CD package, a series of which Touch had already produced. Brody and I created a different design for each format of CD, cassette, LP and singles. This work is featured in a number of design books." More on Brody: http://www.fontexplorer.com/isroot/FontStore/content/00_home/content/home_05 b_fdesigner_f/brody/brody.html On a similar subject: Andrew McKenzie (The Hafler Trio) about Wire [and Brody] in an interview by Bo Krogsgaard: "Right now we are listening to Wire. I recall you have known these guys for quite a while. You remixed a 12 inch single for them, what is the story with you lot?" "I know them through Jon Wozencroft, of Touch and Neville Brody fame, who basically has been obsessed by them ever since I've known him, and made a point of meeting and getting to know them ages ago.They had a long track called "The First Letter" which wasn't on the album of the same name, and which they planned to play once at a gig in Vienna, then forget it forever (Wire are like that). So I decided to ask if I could remix it, in order to release it. Incidentally, I played on the same night in Vienna, even though I was in Amsterdam (I'm like that =)" > I scraped a 2:1 and I still have recurring dreams about trying to write > the bloody thing! I don't know what a 2:1 is, but I know about recurring schoolrelated nightmares even at 39! > Two Fat Persons....Click Click Click Hey that's another great idea for a silkscreen! Eat yer heart out Andy W.! [no no, not you young Walkingshaw!] [Pop]Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 12:20:51 +0100 From: Andrew Walkingshaw Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fat Beuys Buzzing On Sat, Jun 08, 2002 at 01:02:59PM +0200, Bart van Damme wrote: > > I scraped a 2:1 and I still have recurring dreams about trying to write > > the bloody thing! Second best degree class: they go 1st, 2:1, 2:2, 3rd, pass, fail. A 1 or 2:1 is regarded as a "good pass" in general. I'm currently hoping for a 2:1 when my results come out next week. > > I don't know what a 2:1 is, but I know about recurring schoolrelated > nightmares even at 39! > > > > Two Fat Persons....Click Click Click > > Hey that's another great idea for a silkscreen! Eat yer heart out Andy W.! > [no no, not you young Walkingshaw!] :) I haven't had my fifteen minutes of fame yet, though. Andrew - -- "I call, and I collect; (So just strike him softly, away from the body..." - - Blur, "Trouble in the Message Centre" ('Parklife') adw27@cam.ac.uk (academic) | http://www.lexical.org.uk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 13:37:26 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Fat Beuys Buzzing > :) I haven't had my fifteen minutes of fame yet, though. > > Andrew hehehe... but you will, you will... Bart ;-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 06:06:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Fwd: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery///ANTI SNOB vs.......and the beat goes on > --- DAVID HEALE wrote: > > OH DEAR > > do I sense looming .. the snob -debate........ > > what is "anti snob"? > > when is anti snob -"inverted snob" > > ho ho > > cheers David > I would have to say we are all guilty of 'musical > snobbery' in some way or another. > This is not to be frowned upon for,it seems to me it > is a 'natural' thing.for example I think(just off > the > top of my head) that ANYTHING Yoko Ono did is > ABSOLUTE > CRAP,nothing 'music' about it to my ears,I don't > like > american-indian music,or screechy wailley music,I > don't like rap or country and western music,I CAN > appreciate that others might like this stuff,but it > all turns me totaly off. > Likiewise many of my friends think my music tastes > are > WIERD,and that's O.K,we can't all like the same > thing,.my point?it's o.k to be a snob,and getting > uptight because some-one doesn't like what you like > is > silly and a waste of energy.I don't know Blurs > work,but if you like it,enjoy,if you don't,fine but > don't RIDICULE someone because of their music > taste,that's a different story.Ari> > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Bart van Damme" > > To: "Keith Astbury" > > Cc: "wire-news" > > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 9:15 AM > > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery > > > > > > > > i couldn't. i'm coming on all shy. i've > admitted > > 'standing on the > > shoulder > > > > of giants'. what more does a boy have to do??? > > > > > > > > oh alright then. 'up' by right said fred, > though > > i couldn't tell you > > what > > > > it's like. i just fancied having the 1st 3 > > singles 'i'm too sexy', > > 'don't > > > > talk...' and 'deeply dippy'... > > > > > > > > and if we're talking about singles on vinyl - > > 'gto' by sinitta (naff > > > > admittedly, BUT gloriously naff!), 'go west' > the > > village people, etc > > etc, > > > > but what the hell i LIKE them!!! > > > > > > > > keith (hanging my head in shame even as we > > speak) > > > > > > > > p.s. will you still be my friends ; ) > > > > > > > > n.p. dome1 > > > > > > > > > > > > Anytime Keith, > > > > > > You are THE anti-snob! ;-) > > > > > > Bart > > > > > > n.p. Charlie don't Surf - Sandinista/Clash > > > ===== > everything in moderation is good for you,including > excess. > Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup > http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com > ===== everything in moderation is good for you,including excess. Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 09:38:29 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] the World Cup is finally here! In a message dated 6/7/02 3:35:00 AM, PaulRabjohn@aol.com writes: >er , so any predictions for the england/argies game? must say i have littel >optimism on this one , my heart says 1 -1 but my head says we lose about >2-0. i predict a 1-0 victory for your boys... hehe, well ya know, you guys on the right side of the pond could pull off a "prediction after the results are in" on me since i don't ever see the results until almost 24 hrs after the actual games anyway. why on earth did i choose last night to stay up and attempt to watch a game live? south africa vs slovenia! i had to hold my eyes open a la malcolm mcdowell in clockwork orange...and i still fell asleep. it's quite rare that i get up in the morning and go right on the puter, but i suppose now (9:30 am est) would be a good time to catch a little live action at a sane hour :o) and besides, i think the usa is playing right about now. - -paul c.d. p.s. seriously, last night's game was on espn2, while espn showed off season nfl football action! ooh boy, a 250 lb football player in a hot tub after a morning jog. maybe that programming was carefully planned so all the american ladies working the nightshift wouldn't doze off watching sa vs slovenia ;o) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 15:59:27 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery > > p.s. will you still be my friends ; ) > > > > n.p. dome1 > > > > Don't try & creep round us by playing that strange experimental stuff Keith. > Chris i *knew* it wouldn't work ; ) keith n.p. dome 2 (lets see if it works this time!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 10:53:01 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: digital recording...was [idealcopy] Everything's Going to be Nice (Beuys Harvests Tulips) In a message dated 6/7/02 11:58:35 AM, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: >that I'm sure some of KidA was done on to HD. Likewise New Order used Pro > > >Tools extensively on Get Ready. and by bjork on vespertine. and i'm sure the list is currently expanding at an ever increasing rate and now for some bland, on-topic, discussion... so how was r&b01 recorded. any specifics that i'll see on the sleeve? specifics listers know, and not on the sleeve? mac user alert! and please feel free to reply to this last part off list, unless other folks wanna read about something as off-topic as macs ;o) can anyone recommend a g4 tower (800mhz) or imac g4 (700mhz), one over the other for any specific reasons at all? how much will i notice a difference between the 700 & 800mhz, provided they're identical apart from that? and speaking of how "identical" they are, what are the "hidden" differences that go beyond the processor, ram and hard drive space? are the optical drives the same? how bout the rest? cheers all. go england! go usa! go "your country here"! - -paul c.d. n.p. "in my head"- sugar ray-when it's over randy newman-you've got a friend in me smash mouth-i'm a believer (yes, the monkees song) all because i used them in an imovie i made for my school :o\ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 17:08:49 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] GAR's & Beuys >> "Insightful enough!" They seem to be the keywords in this whole argument. >> You have a few Wire-facts on me and therefor I must shut up and be in awe of >> an allknowing master. Isn't this the case, Bill? > > It seems that Kevin, Craig, Charles and Andrew made a lot of effort to get a > lot of Wire information online. Not that everyone on Ideal Copy need become a > student of Wireology, but it wouldn't hurt just to spend a little more time > finding out about something that interests you at www.wireviews.com Guess you have a point about lazy IC-ers [like myself] should check these [great] information sources more, but let's not turn this into an exam thing like I get the feeling sometimes. >>Isn't that the new Robert Pollard cd? Loved to be tied to that one! > Not in my airforce! Try again, that one was from '96! > If I was an all knowing master, there would be no point in interviewing Wire. If you want SOME credit as an interviewer you should come up with a little more attitude like last time: >> but to me some of the songs deliberately try to >> imitate a Pink Flagish feel. > I asked Colin about this . > His reply is that there was no intention to be retro. Amazingly sharp and witty. > On Returning is credited to only (Newman) on the 154 sleeve. You do have that > surely? > It helps to look at these things before you post queries! I do and I could yeah, but I was not at home and don't know these things by heart, sorry... >> Merely a reflection of our personal mortality. > > A reflection, but not merely! > It is certainly interesting when art reflects such things (more so than lager > louts and liggers) and is often an excuse for a good bit of noise, if any is > needed. Judging from your interview down here it seems your main and only topic. > GAR: The lyrics of Mercy are phenomenal and that's from a dream isn't it? [C'mon man, little less sucking up and giving answers to your own questions] > EGL: Yes, and very little changed from the dream. > > GAR: I think one of the key words that really sets the scene in that song is > 'refugees'. I think a lot of the songs that you've written form themed > sequences. The feeling of war torn desolation in Mercy kind of relates back to > Reuters and Pink Flag and then later The First Letter picks up a similar > thread. ["War [uhuh] what is it good for?" Doom Doom Doom...] > EGL: The other ones you mention are all texts that I've written and inevitably > it goes back to private obsessions really. Perhaps I once wanted to be a war > correspondent. ["say it agaiiiin"] > BCG: I think it's also the leakage from what's actually happening in the > world. The uncertainty of nation states. Everything's up in the air! > > EGL: Everything's up in the air. It's the bloodiest century that's ever been. > More wars - there's been a phenomenal number since the second world war. How > many are going on at the moment? These things are relevant. > > Cut forward > > GAR: Do you feel it's inevitable that us human beings will be wiped out? ["I just caaaan't get you out of my head" Oh, excuse me, you were saying?] > EGL: I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime, but who knows? What happened > to the dinosaurs? And they were around for an awful long time! > GAR: Maybe by then we'll have changed into something else. [into a bloody good interviewer I hope?] > BCG: "Give me the button!" is what I say! > > EGL: As Joseph Beuys said, "The greatest thing in the world is the atom bomb. > This is he greatest piece of work! Give everybody one! I want one in my > bathroom! Do not be frightened of this thing. Be frightened of the man who has > it!" > Who are the fuckers with the buttons? There are some pretty dodgy characters > out there. [bathroom? fuckers? buttons & dodgy characters? you were in the loo now, right? verbally sucking up wasn't enough for ya?] > GAR: Crazy bastards who have to spend their whole life pursuing that goal. [blush] > EGL: Power. [ooooh, right!] > GAR: To spend their lives chasing power they must be insane. > EGL: It tends to go towards that. And that's exactly what Joseph Beuys was > saying: change yourself. [some good advice from ol' EGL to the interviewer no doubt] All I've learned here is that "GAR" has dwelled a bit in the presents of his Masters in a pub and is boasting about that to us... No "burning souls", no glowing hot insights... just the usual pub dribble about the fuckers and the bastards that are out to get 'em... Oh well... makes me want to go and get a pint myself... Cheers, Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 16:33:47 +0100 From: "Fergus Kelly" Subject: [idealcopy] Contemporary classical Hi Bart Glad to see you mentioned listening to contemporary (& older) classical. I was beginning to think I was the only one on the list (though that's unlikely I suspect). Nothing quite like that timeless form. Part's one of my favourites. Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms is stunning. Have you heard that one? You should check out Anton Webern (Austria), Toru Takemitsu (Japan), and Morton Feldman (US). Webern's stuff dates from the first half of the 20th century (he died in 1945 - caught by a sniper's bullet), and is the most beautifully understated yet rich music. Some of the pieces are only a few minutes long. Enormously influential for subsequent generations of composers. Takemitsu (d.1996) did a lot of music for film. His work is more lyrical and romantic, along the lines of Debussy, but with a different sensibilty. Feldman (d.1987) was part of a artistic firmament of composers, coreographers, painters and writers in the 50s and 60s that included John Cage, Merce Cunningham, Mark Rothko, Philip Guston et al. His stuff is remarkable in it's simpicity (always seeking to remove rather than include). The later work is really pared back, and very quiet - simple phrases repeated over with minor variations. Some of the pieces are quite long (up to 4 hours). On paper this probably sounds incredibly boring, but it's not. He was fascinated by Persian rugs - the patterning, with various slight imperfections, which is pretty much how his music operates. Works along the principles of Eno's ambient music (years before the fact of course). Incredible attention to sounds, and the spaces between them. If you like organ music, you should check out French composer Olivier Messiaen (d.1992). Don't quite know how I'd describe his stuff... it varies a lot, but, I guess it's like a painter whose work you like, it's got a certain touch or gesture. Have you seen the Wim Wenders film "Wings Of Desire" (1987)? Some beautiful music for strings by Jurgen Knieper. You don't have a copy of that soundtrack on CD by any chance? Other things I've been enjoying lately... Einturzende Nuebauten: Haus Der Luege Wendy Carlos: Beauty In The Beast Popul Vuh: Nosferatu (soundtrack to Herzog's film) Zoviet*France: Loh Land AMM: Tunes Without Measure Or End Paul Shutze: Third Site All the best Fergus http://www.whisperinggallery.com/wg/personnel/kelly/index.shtml _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:18:33 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Barbed Liars Disobey Sonic Wibbling Futures: Liars are in session on John Peel Wednesday 12.6 Pasts: Oasis have crept into my record collection on the back of Sonic Youth. Steve Shelley spins the Fierce Panda Wibbling Rivalry 7" at varispeed on part of SYR3. And since Sonic Youth have risen again... Uncut inaccurate? >>>'sitting on a barbed wire fence', a track by thurston moore, kim gordon and epic soundtracks. recorded and remixed in '92, it's a previously unreleased track that sounds more like the stooges than dylan, and one which deserves a listen if you like the people involved. I taped this off some Dylan tribute CD maybe 7-8 yrs ago, so unless it's an alternate take or something it is previously released (but probably long unavailable). I think it also had tracks by the Poster Children & Thin White Rope. Heard Sonic Youth album opener a few days back, which didn't really grab me, but got my ticket for their Manchester gig in a few weeks. This SY news from http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/news/02-06/06.shtml Sonic Youth will be webcasting a live rehearsal on their Echocam this Sunday, June 9th, featuring both new songs from the forthcoming Murray Street and older songs the band is working up for its massive summer tour. Band practice starts at 4 p.m. EST-- You can also download an MP3 of Murray Street opener "The Empty Page" from their website http://www.sonicyouth.com I think that's about 9pm in the UK. Breeders album sounds like fun http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/b/breeders/title-tk.shtml Oh dear, what has become of Trans Am? http://www.pitchforkmedia.com/record-reviews/t/trans-am/ta.shtml Speaking of American bands, as he wasn't Mark gave the c'mon >>>C'mon, it did seem quite exciting to have loads of new guitar pop bands - even if many of them were shite (Hello Cast! Hi Sleeper! Yo Kula Shaker!). Certainly got me going to a lot more gigs than in the previous couple of years. How could you forget Ocean Colour Scene, maaannn? This is what is so surprising to me, that people seemed to think that just playing a guitar was enough. I'm not that interested in the means of making the noise so much as the noise itself. I can think of several accordian players who are way more exciting than the retro Britpap crap. If we're rolling back to the mid 90s then... At the time I seem to recall lots of American bands touring and I was going to great gigs by Brainiac, Come, Trumans Water, Killdozer, Grifters, Tar, Unwound, Babes in Toyland, Fugazi, Yo La Tengo, Flaming Lips, Girls Against Boys, Steel Pole Bath Tub, the Jesus Lizard, Shellac, Throwing Muses, Drive Like Jehu, Sonic Youth, Pavement, Shudder to Think, Mercury Rev, Breeders, Alice Donut, Nomeansno, etc, etc. almost every week, 'generic garage punk' rock that it might've seemed to some. The Britpap lot seemed very light and fluffy and twee, not to mention utterly bland & retrogressive, in comparison. If bands are going to reference the past, which it is inevitable that they do, it helps if they can make something harder or wierder. It probably comes as no surprise that when I listened to the first Oasis album out of morbid curiosity I almost fell over laughing at the tired MOR banality of it. For me that nasal whine seemed more like Jilted John than John Lennon. The Eagles did it better... Oasis macho laddy style perhaps seemed such a joke because they didn't have any hard hitting music to back it up. The football fan vibe was always lost on me anyway. John Lennon was about more than just opening your mouth & looking gormless. Meanwhile Mr Gilbert sneaked in Disobediently with some blacked out CDs and made it obvious that you really didn't need a guitar at all to make an interesting noise. Disobey was a really interesting thing happening around this time that probably didn't get the credit it deserved, as these kinds of things rarely do. There was always something surprising and different about it and it opened a lot of doors and lines of flight. It put into practice the idea that anything could happen. Otomo & Eye, DJ Beekeeper Stock Hausen & Walkman, Pan Sonic, Phill Niblock, GilbertPossStenger, Merzbow, Chris Carter, Big Bottom, Non, Sonic Boom, Cylob; did you know a bee has 5 hearts? them woz nitez... As usual there was plenty of exciting stuff happening away from the media spotlight. As for a few derivative guitar bands giving everyone dubious cause for national pride, why aren't Boybands, Elton John, etc. equal cause for such? >>>I'd love to see a gig at the Buckley Tivoli. Saw Come and Leatherface play there. Faust gig there was the stuff of legend but I missed that. Tivoli had a kind of tacky disco decorative character but the PA had a good sound. During the Come gig one pissed teenager decided to crawl about on the stage to the general bemusement of the band. Most of the crowd were waiting to mince about to Faith No More records after the band had played, but it was packed. "LIVE FOR EACH SECOND without hesitation and never forget i'm your man" elton john Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine NP Hovercraft - Experiment Below (Blast First) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 18:03:16 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] All in the Art sleeve slated >>>what about R&B? I slagged this off in jest once before, but that doesn't alter the fact that the outer cover - small budget or not - is crap. read red against grey fits Gilbert Ab / Esse aesthetic companion to pan sonic? stalwarts of minimalism for some opinion is acceptable as fact, but not for others? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 15:49:57 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] GAR's & Beuys Bart, << > GAR: The lyrics of Mercy are phenomenal and that's from a dream isn't it? [C'mon man, little less sucking up and giving answers to your own questions] >> Credit Graeme for providing a full and honest transcript of his conversation, rather than airbrushing the finished text like a "proper" journalist.... and wouldn't you complement an artist whose work you'd long admired if you met him? Give me that any day over the reporter trying to 'out-cool' his subject.... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 22:30:49 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] GAR's & Beuys >>> GAR: The lyrics of Mercy are phenomenal and that's from a dream isn't it? > >> [C'mon man, little less sucking up and giving answers to your own questions] > > Credit Graeme for providing a full and honest transcript of his conversation, > rather than airbrushing the finished text like a "proper" journalist.... and > wouldn't you complement an artist whose work you'd long admired if you met > him? Give me that any day over the reporter trying to 'out-cool' his > subject.... > > Mark Mark, Normally I would say you're a 100% right here, but given last week's many stabs I got about the quality of my contributions I guess it was too tempting to measure his output in a similar manner. Bart ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 23:39:40 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Contemporary classical on 08/06/02 17:33, Fergus Kelly at fkelly88@hotmail.com wrote: > Have you seen the Wim Wenders film "Wings Of Desire" (1987)? Some beautiful > music for strings by Jurgen Knieper. You don't have a copy of that > soundtrack on CD by any chance? I have that one on vinyl actually (though I hate the film), and I did see a CD release of it one time (though I didn't buy it) Kniepfer did an even better work on Wenders' 'the State of Things' (which is also a so much better film), so you should check it out as well. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 14:02:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Ari Britt Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery So what' IS the screechy wailey stuff you wuz gonna send? - --- Keith Astbury wrote: > > Depends how much you pay me Bud.Ari > > what's the going price ari? > > bought some blank discs today. promise i'll the cds > soon. > > keith > > ps what do you mean by screetchy waily music > exactly. i ask because there > was something i was thinking of doing - that after > hearing that mouth music > cd i thought you might like - but now i'm not so > sure!?! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Ari Britt > To: Keith Astbury > Sent: Saturday, June 08, 2002 1:36 PM > Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Music snobbery > > > > Keith A wrote: > > keith (hanging my head in shame even as we speak) > > p.s. will you still be my friends ; ) > > ===== everything in moderation is good for you,including excess. Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 00:03:29 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene on 06/06/02 13:42, Bart van Damme at bartvandamme@home.nl wrote: > > Keith: >> we shouldn't under-estimate britpop. regardless of whether the music was any >> good or not, it at least allowed the country to feel good about itself for a >> short time, and it seemed to have been a long time since that had last >> happened. and all that blur vs oasis might have been a load of hype, but it >> was fun surely wasn't it that a lead story on the news was about who was >> going to be number one! > > I had no problem with it. I was under the impression also smaller indiebands > were profiting from the media-attention britpop caused all over the world - > or am I mistaken? Of course they did, but incidentally or not, this stuff, whether you think it's good or bad or just mediocre, didn't have anything alternative about it by that time. That was the time when the 80's ideas of remaking 60's pop-rock turned into a standardised clichi. > Giluz: >> I used to agree that if something's good it's good, regardles of when and >> where it came from, but when I started looking deeper at things that I like >> and didn't like I realised that the time and place do matter and that the >> attitude matters most. I would define it as relatively purist, which is >> nicely contradictory, I think. > > I can respect that! These balances are so very personal. That's what I like > so very much about the piece you send from Bruce Sterling's Zeitgeist. I > really enjoyed that! [off to the bookshop!] I read this novel over a year ago and it still vibrates in my head. This is the reverse example of Britpop - Sterling is so tuned in to Western culture and the direction it's heading, he just can't make a false move. So his novels will be remembered as works of arts and not as blockbusters. > You mean pre "Europa"? That's the first von Trier I've seen. Quite > differently filmed that one - stunning photography. Reminded me of > Polanski's Knife in the Water. A few years agao there was also a strange > sort of horror tv show called The Kingdom by him on tv. Though it didn't > quite work, it had some interesting moments. I believe he wanted to make > something like Twin Peaks then. Trier did 3-4 features before Europa. I've seen two of those and they were quite brilliant, though not very strong on the narrative side, but the way this guy could create this dark hallucinatory European atmosphere is enough for me to credit these films as brilliant. The Kingdom I was great fun, I thought, and maybe the last Trier output I really liked. It was a very strange combination of Twin Peaks with ER. Kingdom II was less so. Though hillarious at times, it was a bit too much over the top, and I suspect the Dogma conventions (or maybe just lack of funding) made it a bit weak on the mise-en-scene. I heard Kingdom III was out, so I'll definitely check it out (Frederik - do you know something about it? Was it on Danish TV?) > I didn't like Dancer in the Dark either, nor Breaking the Waves. The > melodramatic side of von Trier don't interest me, but if you haven't seen > the Idiots, this is something else all together. Funny, edgy and > anarchistic! The documentary on Dancer in the Dark was much more interesting than the film itself, with Bjork running off in the middle of shooting and all. Cheers, giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 21:05:52 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Barbed Liars Disobey Sonic Wibbling > And since Sonic Youth have risen again... > > Uncut inaccurate? > >>>'sitting on a barbed wire fence', a track by thurston > moore, kim gordon and epic soundtracks. recorded and remixed in '92, it's a > previously unreleased track that sounds more like the stooges than dylan, and > one which deserves a listen if you like the people involved. > > I taped this off some Dylan tribute CD maybe 7-8 yrs ago, so unless it's an > alternate take or something it is previously released (but probably long > unavailable). that's right. it says 'exclusive' to uncut inside the mag. the cd sleevenotes says 'previously unreleased version', so i'm assuming it's an alternate take. haven't heard their original version, but this is great. by far the best track on the cd IMO (there's a fair amount of dross on it to be honest). incidentally, there's a lee renaldo version of 'visions of johanna' on cd2. > Heard Sonic Youth album opener a few days back, which didn't really grab me, > but got my ticket for their Manchester gig in a few weeks. not sure whether i can get to see them yet. gonna have to *try* and make it, sonic youth are probably my fave existing band that i've yet to see live. > How could you forget Ocean Colour Scene, maaannn? i don't know, but believe me i've tried ; ) > Saw Come and Leatherface play there. Faust gig there was the stuff of legend > but I missed that. me too. still scolding myself over that one too. > Tivoli had a kind of tacky disco decorative character but > the PA had a good sound. you must have been there on a good night. it was a bit tinny some nights. > During the Come gig one pissed teenager decided to > crawl about on the stage to the general bemusement of the band. Most of the > crowd were waiting to mince about to Faith No More records after the band had > played, but it was packed. it was a bit hit and miss as to how many were there. some bands would really pull the crowds in. a just pre-'ladies and gentlemen' spiritualised gig for example was packed. the fall a few months later was probably just a third full. think it depended on where else in the north west someone was playing. if that was the only gig - like spiritualised - people would travel from liverpool and manchester. as a band like the fall would be touring fairly extensively, i suppose it's reasonable to deduct that that most people wouldn't make the same effort. it did seem to attract people who were really into bands like FNM and Rage Against the Machine though. i used to know the manager pretty well (well i was a regular) and he told me about when julian cope played a warm-up for the pheonix festival. thought it was pretty interesting to hear first hand about how management have to deal with 'artists'. according to the manager (who was very pleased about getting cope there btw) they had to be very careful with the cottage they provided for cope's stay. julian apparently wouldn't stay anywhere where there was evidence of anyone having recently smoked. and then he plays a nightclub... keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 23:25:56 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene > The documentary on Dancer in the Dark was much more interesting than the > film itself, with Bjork running off in the middle of shooting and all. > giluz as one of the few people in the world who didn't rate 'apocalypse now', i felt the same way about that documentary. the sheer madness of making it made for great viewing, but compared with coppola's previous stuff (the 1st two godfathers, the conversation, etc) i just couldn't get excited about a film about that was basically about visiting a fat guy ; ) keith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:37:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: [idealcopy] aka Raoul Duke... So the 30th for "Fear and Loathing..." is nigh and an interview occurred: > Story continues here: > http://www.lasvegascitylife.com/display/inn_cover_story/cover.txt This link showed up on the Tom Waits email list and was actually a pretty decent, almost coherent interview! Who a' thought! ===== Rick Hindman, 3R Productions PO Box 7770 Santa Cruz, CA 95062 t: (831) 425-7335 f: (831) 425-7356 http://3rproductions.com Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 22:23:46 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Barbed Liars Disobey Sonic Wibbling << > but got my ticket for their Manchester gig in a few weeks. not sure whether i can get to see them yet. gonna have to *try* and make it, sonic youth are probably my fave existing band that i've yet to see live. >> I've just got my ticket for the London gig on 25/6. Not seen 'em for a very long time - the ICA circa 1985! Anyone else going to the London gog? Mark ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 10:08:40 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene on 09/06/02 00:25, Keith Astbury at keith.astbury10@virgin.net wrote: >> The documentary on Dancer in the Dark was much more interesting than the >> film itself, with Bjork running off in the middle of shooting and all. >> giluz > > as one of the few people in the world who didn't rate 'apocalypse now', i > felt the same way about that documentary. the sheer madness of making it > made for great viewing, but compared with coppola's previous stuff (the 1st > two godfathers, the conversation, etc) i just couldn't get excited about a > film about that was basically about visiting a fat guy ; ) > keith Hehehe - I feel the same way myself. Though I do think Apocalypse is a great film it's not the masterpiece everyone says it is. I just watched the director's cut a few weeks ago and except for one short scene all of the added material (more than an hour) was not well written, not well played, not well directed and just expendable in any way you can think of. I do feel, however, that the film is a quite good interpretation of Conrad's book and that Robert Duvall is a genius. But the Conversation was indeed so much better - the sound version to Antonioni's Blow-Up. giluz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 09:35:06 +0200 From: Bart van Damme Subject: Re: [idealcopy] it ain't over till Brando sings op 09-06-2002 00:25 schreef Keith Astbury op keith.astbury10@virgin.net: >> The documentary on Dancer in the Dark was much more interesting than the >> film itself, with Bjork running off in the middle of shooting and all. >> giluz > > as one of the few people in the world who didn't rate 'apocalypse now', i > felt the same way about that documentary. the sheer madness of making it > made for great viewing, but compared with coppola's previous stuff (the 1st > two godfathers, the conversation, etc) i just couldn't get excited about a > film about that was basically about visiting a fat guy ; ) > keith But what a fat guy it was, Keith! I thought it was Copolla's masterpiece myself, though naratively speaking I suppose you're right. But taking Joseph Conrad's rather onedimensional novel and putting it into a contemporary setting [the Vietnam war was still going on when he began to shoot it] works rather well imo. Though dressed like a modern-day wardrama he's making it timeless again by his use of metaphors and mythology [this is of course a Dantesque Odyssey]. Another dimension is the fact that the makers themselves too seemed to be pulled into a hellish situation over wich they had little control. Like with Werner Herzog's Fitzcarraldo the making of the film turned out to be almost as big a work of art as the final product itself. More so than Brando and Hopper [let alone Martin "Tintin" Sheen] I liked the performance of Robert Duvall. Personally I prefer the smell of coffee in the morning though. Bart ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #187 *******************************