From: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org (idealcopy-digest) To: idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Subject: idealcopy-digest V5 #182 Reply-To: idealcopy@smoe.org Sender: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-idealcopy-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk idealcopy-digest Thursday, June 6 2002 Volume 05 : Number 182 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: [idealcopy] Lager Louts' Third Language tucked into Briefcases? ["Kei] [idealcopy] Nice Streets are Rhizomes ["Bill Hick" ] Re: AW: [idealcopy] the World Cup is finally here! [CHRISWIRE@aol.com] Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene ["ian.s. jackson" ] RE: [idealcopy] thurston, kim & epic ["Andrew Lumbard" ] Re: [idealcopy] Nice Streets are Rhizomes ["ian.s. jackson" ] Re: [idealcopy] US tour dates!! [giluz ] RE: AW: [idealcopy] the World Cup is finally here! ["Andrew Lumbard" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Lager Louts' Third Language tucked into Briefcases? > Another excellent analysis from the boy Walkingshaw, focing his way into the > Idealcopy starting XI.... can i just nominate myself as the IC niall quinne figure. a bit past my sell-by-date, but still just about ok for the last 10 minutes ; ) > "Sing", "Popscene", "For Tomorrow", "Chemical World", "Coping", "Girls > and Boys", "Trouble in the Message Centre", "This is a Low", "The > Universal", "He Thought of Cars", "Entertain Me", "Yuko and Hiro", > "Strange News from Another Star", "Essex Dogs", "Trimm Trabb" ... many > of which are in fact deeply personal songs.<< > A decent selection, though I'd include End of a Century and To the Endrather > than some of the Great Escape stuff. definitely. > Ultimately technical competence in a rock/pop environment is worth zip unless > you're playing a very stylised form of music, which neither Blur nor Wire are > doing. > > Even bands that seem to operate in the same broad environment tend to fall > into polarised camps of "hugely competent" or "can scarcely play". Eg > Magazine, Television in the former and Wire, Joy Davidson in the latter. Who > cares how "technically competent" any of those musicians are? did you see that Q promotions 'win 25 punk albums' in last months issue. Basically described Magazine as Roxy Music if they hadn't been able toplay their instruments. shocking! > Technically competent musicians wear Nils Lofgren tour jackets and pat travers t-shirts i seem to recall! >> > Wire have some great record sleeves, whereas Blur's sleeve art has an > ugly dull bland corporate ad look.<< > > It's not an art competition. And not all Wire sleeves are great. Ideal Copy & > IBTABA could be better. what about R&B? I slagged this off in jest once before, but that doesn't alter the fact that the outer cover - small budget or not - is crap. > Totally wrong. The first few singles certainly had a deliberate 'ad' feel, by > design. Modern LIfe is Rubbish is a work of genius, right down to the > Festival of Britain writing. Likewise the greyhounds on Parklife pretty much > sum up the album's concerns. A very Laarndon album. Great Escape tries to > look like a glossy magazine - the cover succeeds where the album fails. The > later stuff is the work of Graham Coxon - Blur's own Sven. (Hey, another > similarity - a resident artist called Graham in the band!) > > >> Record sleeves? I don't give a damn, I listen to the music. All I ask is > that it keeps the CD unscratched... >> > > Well, as a disciple of Factory I can't agree with you there!! > > Mark me neither. just off to browse through my battered roger dean 'views' ; ) keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:00:43 +0100 From: "Bill Hick" Subject: [idealcopy] Nice Streets are Rhizomes D & G invite the reader to become a rhizome, for only the rhizome can defeat the tree. The rhizome deterritorializes strata, subverts hierarchies. The rhizome can be "novel." It can create "strange new uses" for the trees that it infiltrates. Most importantly, though, the rhizome engenders "lines of flight." It allows for the re-opening of flows that the tree shuts down. The rhizome restores desiring-production. For this reason, Deleuze and Guattari advance the model of the rhizome throughout their work. The rhizome offers some hope of bringing about a kind of "liberation" from structures of power and dominance, the strata that shut down our most essential relationship to the world, desiring-production. http://www.uta.edu/english/apt/d&g/arhizome.html Ideal Copy seems highly rhizomatic, but if we become more aware of this things can only get better. Just sharing information is the starter for by passing the media strata. Found an interesting URL? Know an MP3 that piqued your curiosity? Got the tour dates of a band you like? There's so much happening and the last place we need to look for it is in the adman controlled music press... It's all online! Wire's approach to art also seems highly rhizomatic. Nice Streets Above could be the best song you hear all year... but September might be surprising? Would it be worth mentioning now that Colin found Oxes to be highly entertaining at ATP? Tonight around 10.30pm on Radio 1 UK, Oxes will rock the BBC. Jolly ol' John Peel's wingding is also usually webcast somewhere on Rdaio One website. NP New Wet Kojak - Nasty International (Touch & Go) Cracked Machine Highly Irregular Cyberzine http://www.webinfo.co.uk/crackedmachine ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 16:03:35 EDT From: CHRISWIRE@aol.com Subject: Re: AW: [idealcopy] the World Cup is finally here! In a message dated 05/06/2002 10:01:08 GMT Daylight Time, keith.astbury10@virgin.net writes: > i'm going to put my neck on the line and go for a 1-1 draw.... > > keith > Well done Keith.I hope you had money on it.I read it this evening otherwise I might have been tempted ! Chris ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 21:10:52 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene Bart gets reckless... >BTW, I bet the majority on this list have Oasis records in their >collection, ...uh, how much can you afford to lose...? ;0) ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:13:46 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: [idealcopy] OT Techy question I've asked a friend to copy a cd for me, but because it also contains videos the cd rewriter won't launch and copy the audio. His D drive is also a dvd player. Is there a simple solution to this? AndyL (sounding like I know what I'm talking about) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:09:37 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: RE: [idealcopy] thurston, kim & epic A minor correction for Keith >> this months 'uncut' has a choice of two free cd's - both >> comprise entirely of >> cover versions of dylan songs. This was last month's. This month's has a track by Yeah Yeah Yeahs as in recently recommended by CN and discussed on here. AndyL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 21:46:31 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] thurston, kim & epic Yes, this months arrived today! Contains new tracks from a few people who get mentions here - Pere Ubu, Bob Mould, Chameleons, and our mate Damon with his Mali Music, plus a Go-Betweens oldies and the mighty 'Neat Neat Neat'. The Yeah Yeah Yeahs track, 'Miles Away' isn't exactly original (new wavy pop sort of thing), but I think it could be a bit of a grower. The Pere Ubu track ('Slow Daddy Walking') has a certain charm - it's almost like a comic take on Talking Heads version of 'Take Me To The River'. Keith > A minor correction for Keith > > >> this months 'uncut' has a choice of two free cd's - both > >> comprise entirely of > >> cover versions of dylan songs. > > This was last month's. This month's has a track by Yeah Yeah Yeahs as in > recently recommended by CN and discussed on here. > > AndyL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 15:21:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: [idealcopy] Cool Shit Dept. Well, I've yakked about them before and here we go again! I got a chance to see KMFDM twice in SF this past weekend and they are really hot right now! They also did an instore meet & greet at Rasputin's (SF) on Monday afternoon and ended up being really nice people as well! Considering that Tim Skold jumped ship to join Marilyn Manson and they didn't play MDFMK or anything from Angst, they seriously rocked. The show was split 75/25 between KMFDM and Pig songs and was amazing! Two thumbs up! I highly recommend them if they are coming to your town. It was my first time in a mosh pit since I was in my 30's!! :) Bruised ribs and arms, voice sounds like Tom Waits from all the screaming...a great night to be sure!! PS - Bart, I would be one of the folks who own one Oasis album, 'Definitely Maybe'. I would agree that they are f**king assholes, so I won't pay to see them live, but they have written some good songs occasionally. ===== Rick Hindman, 3R Productions PO Box 7770 Santa Cruz, CA 95062 t: (831) 425-7335 f: (831) 425-7356 http://3rproductions.com Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:28:20 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Nice Streets are Rhizomes neat, neat, neat... >D & G invite the reader to become a rhizome, for only the rhizome can >defeat the tree. The rhizome deterritorializes strata, subverts >hierarchies. The rhizome can be "novel." It can create "strange new uses" >for the trees that it infiltrates. Most importantly, though, the rhizome >engenders "lines of flight." It allows for the re-opening of flows that the >tree shuts down. The rhizome restores desiring-production. For this reason, >Deleuze and Guattari advance the model of the rhizome throughout their >work. The rhizome offers some hope of bringing about a kind of "liberation" >from structures of power and dominance, the strata that shut down our most >essential relationship to >the world, desiring-production. ...but can Engaland actually beat Argentina...? ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 Jun 2002 23:33:55 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: [idealcopy] no pocky for kitty... yes, no, maybe, i don't know... can you repeat the question...? _________________________________________________________________ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 18:49:08 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene << Bart gets reckless... >BTW, I bet the majority on this list have Oasis records in their >collection, ...uh, how much can you afford to lose...? ;0) >> He did say the majority.... Guilty as charged m'lud. Even seen 'em live, though in mitigation it was before they were famous... Mark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 00:21:23 +0100 From: "Keith Astbury" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene > << Bart gets reckless... > >BTW, I bet the majority on this list have Oasis records in their > >collection, > > ...uh, how much can you afford to lose...? ;0) >> > > Guilty as charged m'lud. Even seen 'em live, though in mitigation it was > before they were famous... > > Mark oasis played my local venue late summer '94 just after they 'broke'. the story went that they tried to get out of playing there cos it was now beneath them, but it went ahead as planned and - as part of a shortish tour - it got quite a bit of attention in the national music press because evan dando turned up with them and stood on the roof after the gig and waved at the crowd. in fact, oasis performance was the final footage on granada tv's 'from the beatles to oasis' retrospective a few years back, a look back at all the great music that granada had shown over the years - early rock'n'roll, the beatles, the 'marc' series, the pistols on 'so it goes', etc etc. a programme that ended with tony wilson saying something like, 'and finally from the buckley tivoli...oasis'. yeah, a history of pop programme mentioned a venue in some small north wales backwater, a venue that was 5 minutes walk from my house at the time. and guess what? i was in london and i bloody well missed it. keith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:14:25 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] Lager Louts' Third Language tucked into Briefcases? Another excellent analysis from the boy Walkingshaw, focing his way into the Idealcopy starting XI.... << I don't think it is. I think it works rather well with the smash-and-grab-on-Sparks'-back-catalogue car-crash disco of the music, which is *after all* the goal of lyrics.<< I've always seen Boys & Girls as a discopopped-up I am the Fly.... >> As to why I like Blur: in chronological order, "Sing", "Popscene", "For Tomorrow", "Chemical World", "Coping", "Girls and Boys", "Trouble in the Message Centre", "This is a Low", "The Universal", "He Thought of Cars", "Entertain Me", "Yuko and Hiro", "Strange News from Another Star", "Essex Dogs", "Trimm Trabb" ... many of which are in fact deeply personal songs.<< A decent selection, though I'd include End of a Century and To the Endrather than some of the Great Escape stuff. >> And, yeah, three entire albums - by no means just Charmless Man, and as far as lyrical conceits go, given "This Charming Man" is about an imagined homosexual experience and "Charmless Man" (and "Tracy Jacks", "Ernold Same", "Globe Alone", "Colin Zeal", "Advert", "Mr Robinson's Quango", "Dan Abnormal" ... need I go on?) are about people and aspects of society which Damon Albarn basically *hates*, I think that any link here is tenuous at best.<< For my money Blur are at their weakest when Damon slips into third-party mode and writes little character pieces. It's a reflection of some of his biggest influences - Beatles, Ray Davies, Syd Barrett. Never been a fan of English whimsy, unless the music that propels it is pretty startling (eg Arnold Layne). In Blur's case the band seems to throttle back when Damon lapses into whimsical mode. >> It's no offence to Wire to say that Blur are more skilled in terms of their instrumental range: Blur are *technically* one of the tightest bands going, and this again can lead to getting peoples' backs up: it sounds polished because it *is*, because frankly they *can* play anything anyone else can. The reason they're accused of pastiche is because they're cursed with the technical competence -to- rip off whatever they choose.<< This is the key difference, along with the fact that Blur were seen from the start of their career as apart of mainstream pop, whereas Wire haven't. Ultimately technical competence in a rock/pop environment is worth zip unless you're playing a very stylised form of music, which neither Blur nor Wire are doing. Even bands that seem to operate in the same broad environment tend to fall into polarised camps of "hugely competent" or "can scarcely play". Eg Magazine, Television in the former and Wire, Joy Davidson in the latter. Who cares how "technically competent" any of those musicians are? Technically competent musicians wear Nils Lofgren tour jackets and hang out in guitar shops playing Ywngyywe Malmnmsteneeen or whatever the fuck his name is riffs. >> For my money, Graham Coxon is both one of the most technically gifted and -particularly- one of the most innovative guitarists working in pop<< Jonny Greenwood? >> - and Blur *are* a pop act, make no mistake. If you doubt me, which I suspect you will, go and listen to the guitar solo in "Country House" (or ideally the "Live at the Budokan" Japan-only d-cd) - definitely the most bizarre guitar solo to be on *any* number-one hit.<< Oh absolutely. That solo is the only high point of the record. Reminds me of the Feelies' Loveless Love, which at the point when most bands would apply a screaming Neil Young-esque solo, goes off into a spacky ascending and descending scale.... >>At least if Mark Smith has a grouse the mirth is encouraged and let > loose (armpit hairs are sprouting).<< A ref to The Fall's mighty British People in Hot Weather, another (and altogether more vitriolic) take on Englishmen abroad.... But far less subversive than Blur's take, as Girls & Boys was adopted as an anthem (and bought in sufficient quantities to go Top 5) by the very people it lampoons. >>Shame it's out of print. I will have to raid a copyright library...<< Try abebooks.com and search for it.... >> > Have they ever come up with anything a fraction as gripping as the new angled > riff that opens 'On Returning'? - not on the songs I've been exposed to!<< If you're talking about the 154 version, put the credit down to Mike Thorne, who stripped away much of the guitar in favour of his keyboards. Check the Peel version of OR for a less gripping riff - basically yer standard Colin Pink Flag chugger. (nothing wrong with that - just making the point. I feel this comment is pretty spurious. I'd have thought even Graeme could find some positives in Mr Coxon's playing!) >>"Entertain Me" and "He Thought of Cars" spring to mind. Blur, as a band, tend to release singles which have not *that* much in common with their albums...<< Chemical World has a pretty spanky guitar intro... >> Maybe to you: but you're an acknowledged member of the avant-garde. Blur are a *pop act*, and therefore I feel should be considered in that context: they just simultaneously operate as an art-school rock band.<< As I pointed out originally, some of Blur's major influences (eg Mission of Burma) were not on that list, possibly because it was a list on a website and included people who the casual surfer might have heard of.... >> I think there are similarities, and differences: but those similarities, in refusing to play the obvious line, in the palpable tension between melody and wanting to veer off into left field, are very obvious to me.<< And me. You're just starting at a different level. You can get away with more the further you are from the mainstream. >> > Wire have some great record sleeves, whereas Blur's sleeve art has an ugly > dull bland corporate ad look.<< It's not an art competition. And not all Wire sleeves are great. Ideal Copy & IBTABA could be better. Totally wrong. The first few singles certainly had a deliberate 'ad' feel, by design. Modern LIfe is Rubbish is a work of genius, right down to the Festival of Britain writing. Likewise the greyhounds on Parklife pretty much sum up the album's concerns. A very Laarndon album. Great Escape tries to look like a glossy magazine - the cover succeeds where the album fails. The later stuff is the work of Graham Coxon - Blur's own Sven. (Hey, another similarity - a resident artist called Graham in the band!) >> Record sleeves? I don't give a damn, I listen to the music. All I ask is that it keeps the CD unscratched... >> Well, as a disciple of Factory I can't agree with you there!! Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 19:30:08 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene Keith, I saw them at a pub called the Water Rats in Kings Cross in early 94. It was their first London gig, and there was quite a buzz about it. I only found out through a mate who used to freelance for Music Week and was matey with the Creation people, and had got himself on the guest list (plus one). The gig was a major minor celeb fest with the London media cokerati (eg Mark Lamarr etc) out in force. And the band was a fairly nondescript mid-paced indie group playing T Rex riffs. At the risk of incurring a wrathogram from Whalley Range, they were billed as "the most exciting new band since the Stone Roses". Now I saw the SRs in 89 at the ICA and they were very good indeed. But they'd been playing for years - - just nobody outside of Manchester had heard of them. Oasis looked like they'd rehearsed for the first time the previous week. Mind you I saw the Smiths' 7th gig and they were stunning.... I'd love to see a gig at the Buckley Tivoli. I love those stupid bastions of the NME gig guide (Hebden Bridge Trades Club, Retford Porterhouse and the sadly deceased Cromer West Runton Pavilion). Mark << oasis played my local venue late summer '94 just after they 'broke'. the story went that they tried to get out of playing there cos it was now beneath them, but it went ahead as planned and - as part of a shortish tour - it got quite a bit of attention in the national music press because evan dando turned up with them and stood on the roof after the gig and waved at the crowd. in fact, oasis performance was the final footage on granada tv's 'from the beatles to oasis' retrospective a few years back, a look back at all the great music that granada had shown over the years - early rock'n'roll, the beatles, the 'marc' series, the pistols on 'so it goes', etc etc. a programme that ended with tony wilson saying something like, 'and finally from the buckley tivoli...oasis'. yeah, a history of pop programme mentioned a venue in some small north wales backwater, a venue that was 5 minutes walk from my house at the time. and guess what? i was in london and i bloody well missed it. >> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 00:59:04 +0100 From: "ian.s. jackson" Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene me... ><< Bart gets reckless... > >BTW, I bet the majority on this list have Oasis records in their > >collection, > > ...uh, how much can you afford to lose...? ;0) >> MarkB... >He did say the majority.... i know, but fucking hell, Oasis????? i'm hardly Mr.Avant-Garde and having a healthy supply of Quo LP's probably doesnt help, but... i really would not have betted on the majority of IC having any Oasis OR Blur stuff in their racks, honest...and thats why i'm not a betting man... ian.s.j. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:15:54 EDT From: Eardrumbuz@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene In a message dated 6/5/02 6:50:08 PM, MarkBursa@aol.com writes: ><< Bart gets reckless... > >BTW, I bet the majority on this list have Oasis records in their > >collection, the only record in my collection with the name oasis on it is by happy mondays. - -another the paul p.s. finally getting around to ordering r&b01 and crispy ambulance-scissorgun. anyone have the latter? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:34:42 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene << p.s. finally getting around to ordering r&b01 and crispy ambulance-scissorgun. anyone have the latter? >> But of course.... It's rather good too. Much denser sounding than Plateau Phase (which sounds almost skeletal) and not as catchy - but definitely grows with repeated listens. As comebacks go it's pretty impressive. Looking forward to gigs later this year (though they haven't aged nearly as well as Wire....) Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 20:44:06 EDT From: MarkBursa@aol.com Subject: Re: [idealcopy] [Brit] Popscene << i know, but fucking hell, Oasis????? i'm hardly Mr.Avant-Garde and having a healthy supply of Quo LP's probably doesnt help, but... i really would not have betted on the majority of IC having any Oasis OR Blur stuff in their racks, honest...and thats why i'm not a betting man... >> C'mon, it did seem quite exciting to have loads of new guitar pop bands - even if many of them were shite (Hello Cast! Hi Sleeper! Yo Kula Shaker!). Certainly got me going to a lot more gigs than in the previous couple of years. There's also an element of checking out new bands to see if their albums turn out any good - so you'll find Strokes and White Stripes albums here for the same reason as you'll find Oasis albums. Which doesn't account for the presence of Standing on the Shoulder of Giants here*. Mark (waiting from barbed missive from Manchester) *I think it was some cheapo three for a tenner deal in Weybridge Our Price, one of which was the Nick Cave spoken word limited book/CD thing. Oasis was the makeweight. Played it once. Absolute drivel. Mark ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 23:34:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Santa Cruzer Subject: [idealcopy] US tour dates!! Yo Copying brethren~~ This just popped up on posteverything.com!!! Three of the dates have been confirmed on Pollstar as well! Here they come! Damn! I just hope I won't have to drive all the way to LA to see them! ===== Rick Hindman, 3R Productions PO Box 7770 Santa Cruz, CA 95062 t: (831) 425-7335 f: (831) 425-7356 http://3rproductions.com Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2002 09:38:16 +0200 From: giluz Subject: Re: [idealcopy] US tour dates!! on 06/06/02 08:34, Santa Cruzer at r_j_h@yahoo.com wrote: > Yo Copying brethren~~ > > This just popped up on posteverything.com!!! Three of > the dates have been confirmed on Pollstar as well! > Here they come! > > Damn! I just hope I won't have to drive all the way to > LA to see them! > > I guess you meant to paste them here, didn't you? The following dates are now confirmed for Wire's North American tour in Spetember 2002. SAT 7 SAN DIEGO CA - Casbah SUN 8 LOS ANGELES CA - El Rey Theater TUE 10 SEATTLE WA - Showbox FRI 13 MINNEAPOLIS MN - First Avenue SAT 14 CHICAGO IL - Metro WED 18 NEW YORK NY - Irving Plaza SAT 21 ATLANTA GA - Echo Lounge more dates plus details of special guests to follow ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2002 07:44:41 +0100 From: "Andrew Lumbard" Subject: RE: AW: [idealcopy] the World Cup is finally here! Keith commented >> Wat about the USA then? Pretty amazing... For our American colleagues - they beat Portugal, who are pretty handy, 3-2. I realise you're a bit preoccupied with the NBA finals, but I'd be interested to know how well this is reported in the states;-) On a scale of 1-10 against the NBA? AndyL ------------------------------ End of idealcopy-digest V5 #182 *******************************